Revolutionary forces in Europe

[Delenda Carthago]

I would like some information about the revolutionary forces of all kinds in Europe.Marxist,anarchist,ecology,parties,movements ,groups,unions,whatever...I want to get a better picture of what is going on to our continent.

I know that besides Greece,there are some things going on in France and that communists and autonomists are fightin in Italy too,the (reformist)Communist Party of Cyprus is in autohrity,but I dont have a clue besides that.

[Delenda Carthago]

Anyone?

for example,I know that you have DieLinke in Germany,but I dont know what to expect from them.Or in France,are there any parties or movements doing work?

[The Ungovernable Farce]

There's been a big wave of university occupations in Germany and Austria recently. This site has a fair deal of information (http://unsereunis.de/), but it's all in German.
The two largest anarchist forces in Europe are probably the syndicalist International Workers' Association (IWA-AIT) (http://www.iwa-ait.org/) and the International of Anarchist Federations (IAF-IFA) (http://www.iaf-ifa.org/).

[Dragonsign]

In Norway we have the party Red and its youth organization Red Youth, both marxist and revolutionary.

About France, NPA ( Nouveau parti anticapitaliste) was newly founded there. Should take a look at that one.

[Delenda Carthago]

In Norway we have the party Red and its youth organization Red Youth, both marxist and revolutionary.

About France, NPA ( Nouveau parti anticapitaliste) was newly founded there. Should take a look at that one.

Is it powerful?How much % does it takes?Here in Greece we have the Communist Party which is third party,is around 8% and a leftist collaboration which is around 4%(in debates last year it went up to 17%,but the social democratic party which is the human tank for it,was at its worst period)

Plus we have the anarchist movement...

[Dragonsign]

Red got only 1.4% in the last election, so not much to talk of right now,

[Rjevan]

for example,I know that you have DieLinke in Germany,but I dont know what to expect from them.
Very little, they are reformist and turning more and more right. Recently Herr Bisky declared that Die Linke needs to work together closely with the social democrat SPD and that he could imagine a fusion eventually, see this thread: http://www.revleft.com/vb/left-partys-lothar-t124047/index.html
Further they have failed to prove themselves as a party fighting for the interests of the working class where they got into government (e.g. Brandenburg, Berlin), are more out to tell you what they are opposed to than what they suggest as possible solution, argue that one has to ignore the "commie weirdos" and their "utopian dreams" but adjust to reality (= the bourgeois society), which they promplty did after they general election this september in which they constantly claimed to support an immediate withdraw of German soldiers from Afghanistan, which changed to a "we can't rush out of the country, this must not become a second Vietnam and troops are needed at the current situation" and so on.

I have reported here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/bildungsstreik-2009-education-t122574/index.html) about the occupations of universities which The Ungovernable Farce mentioned. Some revolutionary parties are already mentioned there, here again the most important:
- the DKP (German Communist Party), moving into a revisionist direction and showing some signs of reformism, too, lately
- the MLPD (Marxist-Leninist Party of Germany), Maoist tendencies
- SAV (Social Alternative - Forwards), Trotskyist, member of the CWI
- PSG (Party for Social Equality), Trotskyist, member of the 4th International
- SDAJ (Socialist German Workers Youth) communist youth organisation related to the DKP

[Absolut]

Theres a few radical organisations in Sweden, not any major ones though.

-Kommunistiska Partiet (The Communist Party), the main communist party (stalinists) in Sweden, almost got 10.000 votes in the last election, it would be silly to try and measure this in percentage, connected to the ICS.
-Revolutionär Kommunistisk Ungdom (Revolutionary Communist Youth), youth organisation connected to The Communist Party.

-Socialistiska Partiet (The Socialist Party), smaller party, trotskyists, connected to the 4th International.
-Ungsocialisterna (Young Socialists), youth organisation connected to The Socialist Party.

-Rättvisepartiet Socialisterna (Justice Party The Socialists), even smaller party, trotskyists I virtually dont know anything about them, but Ive been told that theyre quite extreme in their trotskyism, connected to the CWI.

-Sveriges Kommunistiska Parti (Communist Party of Sweden), I think theyre maoists, they got 438 votes in the last elections.

-Sveriges Arbetares Centralorganisation (Central Organisation of the Workers of Sweden), syndicalist union, around 5500 members, no international affiliation.
-Syndikalistiska Ungdomsförbundet (Anarcho-syndicalist Youth Federation), not officially connected to the SAC, but shares a lot of its principles (if not all)

Those would be the main leftists organisations of Sweden. Note that Im not counting the Left Party or the Socialdemocratic Party.

[Delenda Carthago]

Theres a few radical organisations in Sweden, not any major ones though.

-Kommunistiska Partiet (The Communist Party), the main communist party (stalinists) in Sweden, almost got 10.000 votes in the last election, it would be silly to try and measure this in percentage, connected to the ICS.
-Revolutionär Kommunistisk Ungdom (Revolutionary Communist Youth), youth organisation connected to The Communist Party.

-Socialistiska Partiet (The Socialist Party), smaller party, trotskyists, connected to the 4th International.
-Ungsocialisterna (Young Socialists), youth organisation connected to The Socialist Party.

-Rättvisepartiet Socialisterna (Justice Party The Socialists), even smaller party, trotskyists I virtually dont know anything about them, but Ive been told that theyre quite extreme in their trotskyism, connected to the CWI.

-Sveriges Kommunistiska Parti (Communist Party of Sweden), I think theyre maoists, they got 438 votes in the last elections.

-Sveriges Arbetares Centralorganisation (Central Organisation of the Workers of Sweden), syndicalist union, around 5500 members, no international affiliation.
-Syndikalistiska Ungdomsförbundet (Anarcho-syndicalist Youth Federation), not officially connected to the SAC, but shares a lot of its principles (if not all)

Those would be the main leftists organisations of Sweden. Note that Im not counting the Left Party or the Socialdemocratic Party.

So,all of them combined together,and if I m right Sweden has 10.000.000 people,dont actually give us a 1%,correct?

What about anarchists?

And tell us a bit about the Left Party.I would like to know.

[Delenda Carthago]

Very little, they are reformist and turning more and more right. Recently Herr Bisky declared that Die Linke needs to work together closely with the social democrat SPD and that he could imagine a fusion eventually, see this thread: http://www.revleft.com/vb/left-partys-lothar-t124047/index.html
Further they have failed to prove themselves as a party fighting for the interests of the working class where they got into government (e.g. Brandenburg, Berlin), are more out to tell you what they are opposed to than what they suggest as possible solution, argue that one has to ignore the "commie weirdos" and their "utopian dreams" but adjust to reality (= the bourgeois society), which they promplty did after they general election this september in which they constantly claimed to support an immediate withdraw of German soldiers from Afghanistan, which changed to a "we can't rush out of the country, this must not become a second Vietnam and troops are needed at the current situation" and so on.

I have reported here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/bildungsstreik-2009-education-t122574/index.html) about the occupations of universities which The Ungovernable Farce mentioned. Some revolutionary parties are already mentioned there, here again the most important:
- the DKP (German Communist Party), moving into a revisionist direction and showing some signs of reformism, too, lately
- the MLPD (Marxist-Leninist Party of Germany), Maoist tendencies
- SAV (Social Alternative - Forwards), Trotskyist, member of the CWI
- PSG (Party for Social Equality), Trotskyist, member of the 4th International
- SDAJ (Socialist German Workers Youth) communist youth organisation related to the DKP

3 questions.

How much the revolutionary parties take in elections?

What is the condition of the anarchist movement?I m hearing that you have a lot of egoist anarcho-punks autonomers that doesn't really mind themselfs with real politics,more like lifestyle anarchism.

Does DieLinke has people supporting them that are real leftists?Because I have read an article and there are a lot of people who remember the "Communist"Germany with sweet sorrow,where is this people stand?

[Delenda Carthago]

I am very intrested in France,Italy and Spain.Can a comrade from these countries give us/me a picture of what the condition is?

[Absolut]

So,all of them combined together,and if I m right Sweden has 10.000.000 people,dont actually give us a 1%,correct?

Sweden has around 9 million inhabitants, and even then, the revolutionary left wont gain 1%. If we count the people eligible to vote, the percentage might be a bit higher, but I doubt we still get over 1%.


What about anarchists?

There arent any nation-wide anarchist organisations. I would guess that many anarchists get organised in the SAC or the Syndicalist Youth, but I wont be able to do any estimates on how influenced either of the organisations are by anarchism. There is, however, a few organisations that are anti-parliamentary and focus on direct action, which in itself isnt enough to be called anarchism, but one could say they are influenced by it. You have Planka.nu, an organisation fighting for free public transportation, using direct action. Planka, in Swedish, means to use something for free, so to say. I dont know the correct word in English. You also have AFA, which Im sure youre familiar with. Apart from that, you could also list Ingen människa är illegal (noone is illegal), who fight for the rights of immigrants, also using direct action. None of these are explicitly anarchist though, but in my personal opinion, they draw much of their influences from anarchism. Theres also an anarchist magazine called Brand (means 'fire' in Swedish), published four times per year. Other than that, I cant really think of anything.


And tell us a bit about the Left Party.I would like to know.

The Left Party started out as the Communist Party of Sweden, in the beginning of the century, then turning in to The Left Party, Communists and finally they renamed themselves to The Left Party, this was around 1990. While theyre certainly more radical than the Social Democratic Party, which, if you use the term loosely, are centre-left, theyre not in any way revolutionary. I would describe them, if Im having a good day, as radical reformist. Either way, the last decades, theyve constantly aligned and co-governed with the social democrats, and that has basically led them nowhere, all theyve managed to accomplish with that is to make sure the social democrats can maintain their rule. Theyre not pushing for any radical reform at all, theyre basically what the social democrats were 30 years ago. In the last election they got 5.85%, a massive loss compared to the 8.3% they got in the 2002 elections. This, in turn, is a massive loss compared to the 11.99% they got in the 1998 elections. Thats basically it I guess.

[Delenda Carthago]

So,if you had to say something about the revolution forces in Sweden you would say that things are going...bad?

PS.What is the nazis-afa correlation?

[Absolut]

So,if you had to say something about the revolution forces in Sweden you would say that things are going...bad?

Basically, yes. However, there are some "beacons of hope", at least I like to look at them like that, it gives me more hope. For example, during the summer, there was a wildcat strike at a warehouse in Stockholm, where the workers were fired so that the company could hire new workers from a consultant company. The strike got a lot of attention, even in the mainstream media and the workers striking were shown an awesome amount of solidarity. Another example could be the SACs Mayday demonstrations in both Stockholm and Gothenburg, which both gathered around 3.500 participants, making them the biggest Mayday demonstrations for the SAC in quite some time. Anyway, generally, I would say that the situation for the revolutionary left in Sweden is pretty bad.


PS.What is the nazis-afa correlation?

What do you mean?

[Delenda Carthago]

Basically, yes. However, there are some "beacons of hope", at least I like to look at them like that, it gives me more hope. For example, during the summer, there was a wildcat strike at a warehouse in Stockholm, where the workers were fired so that the company could hire new workers from a consultant company. The strike got a lot of attention, even in the mainstream media and the workers striking were shown an awesome amount of solidarity. Another example could be the SACs Mayday demonstrations in both Stockholm and Gothenburg, which both gathered around 3.500 participants, making them the biggest Mayday demonstrations for the SAC in quite some time. Anyway, generally, I would say that the situation for the revolutionary left in Sweden is pretty bad.



What do you mean?

A.In order to "mesure",if we can,some things,we need to compare it with the past.And what you are telling me is on that basis,right?

B.I mean,who has the streets,who has the numbers.

[Absolut]

A.In order to "mesure",if we can,some things,we need to compare it with the past.And what you are telling me is on that basis,right?

What Im telling you is on the basis of the last few years. If we go back far enough well end up in 1917, when Sweden almost experienced a revolution. If we go back to the 70's, today is nothing. If we go back 10 years or so, Id say that its looking slightly better. Im also telling you on the basis of my own experience, which in itself is very limited, Ive only been active a few years.


B.I mean,who has the streets,who has the numbers.

Im not sure who has the numbers. However, as a measurement of the strenght of the nazi-movement, you can look at the annual demonstrations the nazis arrange, on the national day of Sweden (June 6th) and the anniversary of the death of Charles XII of Sweden (November 30th). This year, they didnt manage to organise a demonstration on the 6th of June, although Im not sure of the reasons, but if I remember correctly, there were some internal tension or so. They also didnt manage to hold a demonstration on the 30th of November, which they always do. I think I read somewhere that there was one (1) nazi showing up at a demonstration. If you want to use that as proof of the nazi-movement having decreased in size and weakened, I think you can, at least to some extent. However, the populist anti-immigrant party is increasing in strength, just as everywhere else, but maybe not in the same proportions.

[L.J.Solidarity]

3 questions.

How much the revolutionary parties take in elections?

In the last general election, the DKP had 1894 votes (only had candidates in Berlin, they ran against the will of the central committee, "Officially" they stopped taking part in nationwide elections in the 80s due to lack of success), the PSG (whose only notable activity are election campagins) only managed to get on the ballot in 2 states and got 2957 votes (down from 15600 in 7 states in 2005), the MLPD was eligible everywhere and had 29261 votes (2005:45000), which Stefan Engel (their great and enlightened leader) considered a great victory nonetheless. All of those are below 0.1% of the overall vote.



What is the condition of the anarchist movement?I m hearing that you have a lot of egoist anarcho-punks autonomers that doesn't really mind themselfs with real politics,more like lifestyle anarchism.
I think that's an accurate description of many self-proclaimed "Autonome", but others do serious political work - while still wanting nothing to do with the working class or the population in general.
The only anarchist organisation which is active in more than one city is the FAU (Free Worker's Association), which is affiliated to the IWA. They have around 200 members and there's a cinema in Berlin where they organize strikes and managed to outgrow ver.di (the main services union), otherwise they're rather insignificant, but quite visible at demonstration. Their Hamburg branch is quite strange and supports the notorious Antideutsche ("anti-Germans") in a demonstration against so-called "left-wing antisemites" (read: anti-imperialists) next weekend.



Does DieLinke has people supporting them that are real leftists?Because I have read an article and there are a lot of people who remember the "Communist"Germany with sweet sorrow,where is this people stand?I'm a member of Die Linke and it's youth organisation Linksjugend ['solid] and I consider myself a real leftist. SAV is working in the party and the youth organisation (although the latter's leadership is trying to expel us for being an "evil trotskyist cult"), there are also some members of isl (trotskyists, 1 of 2 sections of the fourh international) in Die Linke, and many party members consider themselves communists, for example there's a large (1000+ members) post-stalinist group called the Communist Platform (KPF), but all they ever do is debating and hosting nostalgic events with former GDR bureaucrats.

[Rjevan]

How much the revolutionary parties take in elections?
Again very little... all three, the DKP, the MLPD and the PSG got each 0.1% in the general election... the SAV didn't run for the election but they would have definitely got no better result than the other parties.


What is the condition of the anarchist movement?I m hearing that you have a lot of egoist anarcho-punks autonomers that doesn't really mind themselfs with real politics,more like lifestyle anarchism.
Pretty much true, the most relevant anarchist group is probably the "Anarchistische Gruppe" (= anarchist group ;)). We also have the FAU/IAA, an anarchist union which is member of the IAA and the "Anarchistische Pogo Partei Deutschlands (http://www.appd.de/)", pretty much a group of trolls who play with fascist symbolic ("Fick Heil" as party greeting (fuck hail) :rolleyes:), most of the time just talk nonsense and try to shock and provocate.


Does DieLinke has people supporting them that are real leftists?Because I have read an article and there are a lot of people who remember the "Communist"Germany with sweet sorrow,where is this people stand?
Yes, there is the "Communist Platform" within Die Linke, led by Sahra Wagenknecht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahra_Wagenknecht) but the Platform covers only 1% of the members of Die Linke and is not taken very seriously, they are mostly under attack from members of Die Linke, often accused of being "counter-productive" and "scaring of potential voters from the middle class away".
While there are of course socialists voting for Die Linke, many of the people who support the DDR (GDR) vote for Die Linke do so because before the fusion with the western socialist WASG party, Die Linke was the PDS (Party for Democratic Socialism), the direct successor of DDR's ruling party, the SED. But many of those people who vote for them out of this reason are just nostalgic and far away from being actual communists and many of the old SED members being now part of Die Linke are just out to get into positions of power again and hope to do so by their "old party" and the sympathy they still have in East Germany. This leads to a conflict between members of the western Die Linke who accuse the eastern comrades to have betrayed all leftist principles and have become a tool of bourgeoisie, while the western members are accused by the eastern comrades of not knowing what they speak about and living in the dream world of 1968 and so on...

[Delenda Carthago]

So fellow German comrades,you gave me/us a picture of the revolutionary movement in Deutchland,what about the movie?Is the movement on its way up or down?Are you getting stonger or weaker?Can we expect something coming out the so-called "heart of Europe"?

And tell me/us if you want the thing with Antifa and nazis.

PS.A family member of mine was in Berlin for a couple of weeks some months ago,and described me a very nice political condition over there.Matter of fact,he told me that it was quite close with our own here.Posters everywhere,squats etc.Is Berlin a different situation than the rest of Germany?

[RotStern]

A Communist invasion of TUM. :)

[syndicat]

Actually the membership of Freie Arbeiters Union (Free Workers Union) is now up over 300. They've run up against laws that tend to create a monopoly of representation for the social-democratic DBG, freezing out other unions, even the 150,000 member yellow Christian union.

[Q]

The left in the Netherlands:

PvdA (Labour Party): No longer social-democrat, but "social-liberal". Like the Labour Party in the UK it is nowadays a bourgeois party, almost completely void of any workers. It has about 60 000 members and has 33 seats in parliament (out of 150) with about 17 seats currently in the polls due to their policies (they are in a coalition with christian-democrats and a conservative rightwing christian party).

SP (Socialist Party): A post-Maoist populist leftwing formation that is very opportunist and nationalist in its politics. Thus far it hasn't served in national government, but its leadership is desiring to do so and has been in the process of moving to the right for years. Examples are leaving its anti-NATO stance and republican stance in the elections in 2006. It has been involved in about 20 local coalitions, carrying out neoliberal policies "with a human face". It has an activist base, although this is rather small. Of about 47 000 members only 2 to 3% are active at all. It has a lot of support in the rank-and-file in the unions due to its opposition to the harsh attacks on workers rights, for example it has been very vocally against the raise of the retirement age from 65 to 67. It has 25 seats in parliament but now stands at about 15 in the polls, reflecting its inability to come up with a clear strategy and answers against this crisis.

GroenLinks (Green Left): A smaller party, officially still positioning itself on the left. It was the result of a merger at the end of the 1980's between four parties, one of which the "official communist" CPN. Today it endorses the freemarket logic. In the 2006 elections they defended the position that bosses should be able to fire workers more easily and now it defends the position to raise the retirement age. They are a bunch of petit-bourgeois sellouts. They have 9 seats in parliament and have about 20 000 members.

The following are all a few dozen of members big:

NCPN / CJB (New Communist Party Netherlands / Communist Youth Movement): The followup of the old CPN. It splitted in the 1980's when the CPN was in the process of liquidating itself into GreenLeft. The NCPN follows the old Stalinoid tradition of politics to this day.

Internationale Socialisten (International Socialists): The Dutch branch of the International Socialist Tendency, headed by the SWP in the UK. It places itself officially on the Trotskyist tradition I think, but you can barely notice that at all. Their politics are awful, like endorsing Hamas and Hezbollah because of their "struggle against Israel", not at all pointing out what kind of a reactionary programs these organisations have. This is typical of their politics: They lower their programme in order to appeal to more people. As a result of this they tend to focus on "hot topics" like the Muslim issue and Geert Wilders, yet fail to connect these issues on a clear class perspective. From this flows a rather moralistic approach to stances like anti-racism ("racism is bad") instead of linking it to the need of class solidarity in order to be able to overthrow capitalism.

Offensief (Offensive): Dutch branch of the Committee for a Workers' International. I'm a member of this group, so I'm going to be biased ;) We were recently kicked out of the SP for our critical views on said party's rightwing tendencies and lack of democratic structures. We also base ourselves on the traditions of Trotskyism but in contrast to the IS at least have a clear class view on politics and are active in the AFA and union movement.

Socialistisch Alternatieve Politiek (Socialist Alternative Politics): The SAP are the Dutch branch of the Mandelite Fourth International. They are deeply involved in the SP and have a big influence in their Rotterdam branch. For the rest they're pretty much invisible and you would know they exist when you were directly told. Because of their uncritical behaviour inside the SP, they've had no problems from the party leadership.

Rode Morgen (Red Dawn): A very secretive Maoist cult. That's all I really know about them.

Doorbraak (Breakthrough): A relative new formation, but I also know little about them. I think they are an amalgamation of some anarchist-platformist trends.

Anti-Fascistische Aktie (Anti-fascist action): Not really a political party but a loose grouping of mainly anarchists organising against fascists.

I think that's it :)

[Matty_UK]

So fellow German comrades,you gave me/us a picture of the revolutionary movement in Deutchland,what about the movie?Is the movement on its way up or down?Are you getting stonger or weaker?Can we expect something coming out the so-called "heart of Europe"?

And tell me/us if you want the thing with Antifa and nazis.

PS.A family member of mine was in Berlin for a couple of weeks some months ago,and described me a very nice political condition over there.Matter of fact,he told me that it was quite close with our own here.Posters everywhere,squats etc.Is Berlin a different situation than the rest of Germany?

Berlin is very different to the rest of Germany - Hitler despised Berlin because of it's bohemian reputation, and it was the centre of communist activity in Germany. It's still a long way from Athens though, your family member probably visited Kreuzberg, which was an island of west germany located within East Berlin so all the lefty types would go there to avoid military service and they still shape the flavour of the district significantly. It's a bit like Berlin's Exarchia, although probably not on the same scale.

[Rjevan]

So fellow German comrades,you gave me/us a picture of the revolutionary movement in Deutchland,what about the movie?Is the movement on its way up or down?Are you getting stonger or weaker?Can we expect something coming out the so-called "heart of Europe"?
Call me a pessimist but I say: definitely no!
Generally socialism/communism is pretty irrelevant here, at the moment the youth is a bit more active and leftist-minded but it would be a fatal and childish mistake to assume they are all Anarchists/Marxists, far from it, I posted it already in the thread about today's youth, the Green party is massively popular among the youth as well as anti-capitalist movements like Attac but as soon as you mention communism everybody thinks about brutal dictatorships, a red equivalent to the nazis, the DDR as it is portrayed in the media and old men living in dream worlds and fantasizing about out-dated and "land of milk and honey" theories, which have been proven wrong millions of times.
The youth seemed revolutionary in 1968 and during the time of student protests and the RAF, too, and look what happened to them, today they are the very bourgeois careerists they have demonstrated against 40 years ago.

Another sad evidence that the German left is far from growing is the new government "we" elected in september: conservative CDU in coalition with liberal cappie party FDP... and to vote in the time of the financial crisis and of growing unemployment for exactly the same people who advocate the way which led to the crisis and are partially responsible for it says very much about Germany.
And suddenly Lenin comes to my mind who is believed to have said this: "Revolution in Germany? This will never work. If the Germans plan to storm a train station they'll buy a ticket in advance." Very sad, but there's some truth within it...


And tell me/us if you want the thing with Antifa and nazis.

Well, I would be more than glad if there was no Antifa, simply because there are no fascists and nazis. ;)
But that's not the case and personally I am convinced that it's totally wrong to just ignore the nazis or try to deal with them in debate, it's nearly impossible to convince them how much bullshit they are talking and you can be sure as hell that they will use violence against anybody they dislike (which leaves them with a fascinating long list of people they have to beat up) and that the nazi violence has to be answered by equal actions directed against them. So Antifa has my support, since they are necessary and doing a good job fighting the neo-nazis, the NPD and the "National Autonomous Socialists".

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I think that's an accurate description of many self-proclaimed "Autonome", but others do serious political work - while still wanting nothing to do with the working class or the population in general.
The only anarchist organisation which is active in more than one city is the FAU (Free Worker's Association), which is affiliated to the IWA. They have around 200 members and there's a cinema in Berlin where they organize strikes and managed to outgrow ver.di (the main services union), otherwise they're rather insignificant, but quite visible at demonstration. Their Hamburg branch is quite strange and supports the notorious Antideutsche ("anti-Germans") in a demonstration against so-called "left-wing antisemites" (read: anti-imperialists) next weekend.
I didn't realise the FAU had anti-Deutsche sympathies. :( I really wanted there to be at least one decent class-struggle anarchist organisation in Germany with good politics.

So fellow German comrades,you gave me/us a picture of the revolutionary movement in Deutchland,what about the movie?Is the movement on its way up or down?Are you getting stonger or weaker?Can we expect something coming out the so-called "heart of Europe"?

And tell me/us if you want the thing with Antifa and nazis.

PS.A family member of mine was in Berlin for a couple of weeks some months ago,and described me a very nice political condition over there.Matter of fact,he told me that it was quite close with our own here.Posters everywhere,squats etc.Is Berlin a different situation than the rest of Germany?
Yeah, in my experience Berlin seemed to be totally covered with revolutionary propaganda and really good squats as well. I think there's a large but very unorganised anarchist movement, people seem to get involved with squats and antifa groups instead of building up national organisations. I suppose it might be similar to Greece in that respect, in that you've got a massive anarchist movement but I can't really think of many Greek anarcho organisations. German antifa is definitely really big and militant, I found you could barely move for antifa propaganda in Berlin. I think the Berlin anarchist queer movement is also meant to be quite strong. Here's a calendar of "linke Subkultur und Politik" in Berlin, anyway. (http://stressfaktor.squat.net/termine.php)
Does anyone know anything about TOP Berlin (http://www.top-berlin.net/) or Ums Ganze (http://umsganze.de/)?

[Wanted Man]

NCPN / CJB (New Communist Party Netherlands / Communist Youth Movement): The followup of the old CPN. It splitted in the 1980's when the CPN was in the process of liquidating itself into GreenLeft. The NCPN follows the old Stalinoid tradition of politics to this day.

That's the only worthwhile thing you had to say? :lol: Hey, I know one like that too:

Offensief: the Dutch branch of the CWI. About 5 members. Offensief follows the old Trotskyite tradition of politics to this day. Oh, and they're very sad about getting kicked out of the reformist SP for entryism. :crying:

Other than that, it's a pretty accurate summary. :p The problem with summarizing "revolutionary forces" in the Netherlands is that you're done pretty quickly when talking about amounts of people, but you can mention a lot of groups. Labour, Green Left and the SP have been named, but of course they aren't revolutionary. You already know all about the NCPN and Offensief from the informative posts from myself and Q, so no need to go there either. ;)

The IS is basically like the SWP in Britain, although a lot smaller (200 members or so). However, they are the most active group, and they like to throw their weight around. It's basically where you go if you want to play student radical for 4 years before moving on to lord knows what.

The SAP is the section of the Fourth International, which you need to call "Mandelites" to avoid pissing off the other trotskyists who feel that the FI is a sell-out and a shell of its former self or whatever. They are basically invisible.

GML/Rode Morgen (seriously, their paper's name translates to "Red Dawn"!): a maoist group. I believe they are somewhat active with the dockers and in housing demonstrations.

Anarchists: can't really be generalised or homogenised, obviously. Mostly active in squatting, anti-fascism, against immigration controls, etc.

[L.J.Solidarity]

Does anyone know anything about TOP Berlin (http://www.top-berlin.net/) or Ums Ganze (http://umsganze.de/)?
As far as I know, they're moderately antideutsch - not to be confused with the Bahamas/"Stop the bomb"-guys who want Iran to be annihilated ASAP, but still quite pro-Israel and opposed to large parts of the left. TOP Berlin split off from ALB (Antifascist Left Berlin, the largest organized antifa in Germany) in 2003 when the conflict as part of the conflict between the antideutsche and real leftists.

[Q]

That's the only worthwhile thing you had to say? :lol: Hey, I know one like that too:

Offensief: the Dutch branch of the CWI. About 5 members. Offensief follows the old Trotskyite tradition of politics to this day. Oh, and they're very sad about getting kicked out of the reformist SP for entryism. :crying:
Don't be a silly troll, you're better then that. And you're renouncing the policies of the past? I didn't think you did. I recognise we're small though, but 5 is not true and you know that much. Despite our small size though, I think we have the most political impact, which is all that really matters. Quality over quantity.


Other than that, it's a pretty accurate summary. :p The problem with summarizing "revolutionary forces" in the Netherlands is that you're done pretty quickly when talking about amounts of people, but you can mention a lot of groups. Labour, Green Left and the SP have been named, but of course they aren't revolutionary. You already know all about the NCPN and Offensief from the informative posts from myself and Q, so no need to go there either. ;)
The NCPN has about 1000 paper members, only 100 or so are active and thus members according to the Leninist definition of it. I can't really judge on the quality of those 100 active members, because they don't really mark any difference on demo's and such, which on the other hand may be telling a lot.


The IS is basically like the SWP in Britain, although a lot smaller (200 members or so). However, they are the most active group, and they like to throw their weight around. It's basically where you go if you want to play student radical for 4 years before moving on to lord knows what.
Now, how is the IS smaller then you when you have half of those members? I would more put the IS at 150-170 though. Due to this groups' politics, membership isn't saying a terrible lot though, the political education in this group is virtually non-existent. I guess they have about 30 or so cadres, the rest is basically just a leafleting-machine.

[Wanted Man]

Don't be a silly troll, you're better then that. And you're renouncing the policies of the past? I didn't think you did. I recognise we're small though, but 5 is not true and you know that much. Despite our small size though, I think we have the most political impact, which is all that really matters. Quality over quantity.
And your blurb was respectful? Or is "stalinoid" a term of marxist analysis?

And what, pray tell, is your political impact? :confused:


The NCPN has about 1000 paper members, only 100 or so are active and thus members according to the Leninist definition of it. I can't really judge on the quality of those 100 active members, because they don't really mark any difference on demo's and such, which on the other hand may be telling a lot.
You know so much. :rolleyes:


Now, how is the IS smaller then you when you have half of those members? I would more put the IS at 150-170 though. Due to this groups' politics, membership isn't saying a terrible lot though, the political education in this group is virtually non-existent. I guess they have about 30 or so cadres, the rest is basically just a leafleting-machine.

Naw, the IS is smaller than the British SWP, that's what I meant. Also, the difference in size between the Brit SWP and the other Brit groups is a lot greater, whereas the IS is not that much bigger than the other Dutch groups. That shows where they fail, but it also provides optimism for our (i.e. the rest of us) ability to catch up with them eventually. After all, they've been doing this for 30 years, and still haven't built up anything permanently. :) Of course, I agree with your assessment of them, but I guess that goes for all of us who aren't members of the IS.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

As far as I know, they're moderately antideutsch - not to be confused with the Bahamas/"Stop the bomb"-guys who want Iran to be annihilated ASAP, but still quite pro-Israel and opposed to large parts of the left. TOP Berlin split off from ALB (Antifascist Left Berlin, the largest organized antifa in Germany) in 2003 when the conflict as part of the conflict between the antideutsche and real leftists.
Ah. I read an interview with them in a British magazine that made them sound quite decent, I didn't know about that part. God, the influence of the anti-deutsch on the German left is depressing. :(

[Искра]

The left in Croatia are actually 3 small groups:

The Network of Anarcho-Syndicalists (MASA) - anarcho-syndicalist group (not union) from Croatia.

Red Action (Marxists - Leninists)

Workers Struggle (Trots)

There's also Socialist Workers Party (short in Croatian SRP which means sickle) and New Left Party, but those parties are shit.

[Delenda Carthago]

The left in the Netherlands:

PvdA (Labour Party): No longer social-democrat, but "social-liberal". Like the Labour Party in the UK it is nowadays a bourgeois party, almost completely void of any workers. It has about 60 000 members and has 33 seats in parliament (out of 150) with about 17 seats currently in the polls due to their policies (they are in a coalition with christian-democrats and a conservative rightwing christian party).

SP (Socialist Party): A post-Maoist populist leftwing formation that is very opportunist and nationalist in its politics. Thus far it hasn't served in national government, but its leadership is desiring to do so and has been in the process of moving to the right for years. Examples are leaving its anti-NATO stance and republican stance in the elections in 2006. It has been involved in about 20 local coalitions, carrying out neoliberal policies "with a human face". It has an activist base, although this is rather small. Of about 47 000 members only 2 to 3% are active at all. It has a lot of support in the rank-and-file in the unions due to its opposition to the harsh attacks on workers rights, for example it has been very vocally against the raise of the retirement age from 65 to 67. It has 25 seats in parliament but now stands at about 15 in the polls, reflecting its inability to come up with a clear strategy and answers against this crisis.

GroenLinks (Green Left): A smaller party, officially still positioning itself on the left. It was the result of a merger at the end of the 1980's between four parties, one of which the "official communist" CPN. Today it endorses the freemarket logic. In the 2006 elections they defended the position that bosses should be able to fire workers more easily and now it defends the position to raise the retirement age. They are a bunch of petit-bourgeois sellouts. They have 9 seats in parliament and have about 20 000 members.

The following are all a few dozen of members big:

NCPN / CJB (New Communist Party Netherlands / Communist Youth Movement): The followup of the old CPN. It splitted in the 1980's when the CPN was in the process of liquidating itself into GreenLeft. The NCPN follows the old Stalinoid tradition of politics to this day.

Internationale Socialisten (International Socialists): The Dutch branch of the International Socialist Tendency, headed by the SWP in the UK. It places itself officially on the Trotskyist tradition I think, but you can barely notice that at all. Their politics are awful, like endorsing Hamas and Hezbollah because of their "struggle against Israel", not at all pointing out what kind of a reactionary programs these organisations have. This is typical of their politics: They lower their programme in order to appeal to more people. As a result of this they tend to focus on "hot topics" like the Muslim issue and Geert Wilders, yet fail to connect these issues on a clear class perspective. From this flows a rather moralistic approach to stances like anti-racism ("racism is bad") instead of linking it to the need of class solidarity in order to be able to overthrow capitalism.

Offensief (Offensive): Dutch branch of the Committee for a Workers' International. I'm a member of this group, so I'm going to be biased ;) We were recently kicked out of the SP for our critical views on said party's rightwing tendencies and lack of democratic structures. We also base ourselves on the traditions of Trotskyism but in contrast to the IS at least have a clear class view on politics and are active in the AFA and union movement.

Socialistisch Alternatieve Politiek (Socialist Alternative Politics): The SAP are the Dutch branch of the Mandelite Fourth International. They are deeply involved in the SP and have a big influence in their Rotterdam branch. For the rest they're pretty much invisible and you would know they exist when you were directly told. Because of their uncritical behaviour inside the SP, they've had no problems from the party leadership.

Rode Morgen (Red Dawn): A very secretive Maoist cult. That's all I really know about them.

Doorbraak (Breakthrough): A relative new formation, but I also know little about them. I think they are an amalgamation of some anarchist-platformist trends.

Anti-Fascistische Aktie (Anti-fascist action): Not really a political party but a loose grouping of mainly anarchists organising against fascists.

I think that's it :)

So,do you see things in Netherlands go somewhere at all?Can we have hopes for you over there?

[Andropov]

The Socialist Party (Trotskyite) - Probably the biggest and best organised proper Leftist organisation in Ireland. There most prominent member Joe Higgins was elected as Dublin MEP in the last election and he has a significant base in Dublin as do the SP as a whole. They also have a significant support base in Cork. There members seem educated and capable but I still think their position on Imperialism in Ireland is totally reformist. They were kicked out of the Labour party years ago but on the whole a good lot.

The Socialist Workers Party (Trotskyite Cliffites) - I have no time nor respect for them TBH. Their membership I have encountered with a few honourable exceptions are primarily lifestylists who espose radical rehtorric when a student and leave the SWP once they leave college. Their whole membership seems to be comprised of students and its why they seem to regenerate themselves so regularly because of such a turn over. I do have some time for Kieran Allen but have no time for the likes of Boyd Barrett. TBH I found their membership ive encountered have little to no grasp of Marxism either. I dont see any support base in working class communities either.

The Irish Republican Socialist Party (Marxist-Leninst) - Born out of Imperialism in Ireland and formed in the 1970s. Little to no basis in working class communities south of the partition but has got massive support in the likes of Derry in working class estates like Galliagh and Shantallow and growing in the Bogside/Creggan, alot of support in Strabane and in Belfast the party is really growing into the old PSF heartlands in West Belfast because traditionally the party was strongest along the interface lines in the likes of Short Strand and Ardoyne. With the restructuting of the Party hopefully it can reclaim some of the support it has lost over the years in the south in the likes of Cork, Waterford, Bray etc. But the party is weak in Dublin because of the actions of the former OC of the Dublin Brigade of the INLA. The only area of significant support for the IRSP in Dublin is in Blanchardstown, Inner City Dublin and areas of Tallaght.

The Workers Solidarity Movement (Anarchist) - TBH I dont have much information on them. I have never actually met a WSM member in real life yet but the majority of things I have heard from them seem progressive. Although they did make a fool of themselves at the Royal Irish Regiment protest in Belfast a while ago. But I get their literature and what not and I do have time for them.

The Workers Party (Marxist-Leninist) - Formerly Official Sinn Fein, then changed to Sinn Fein The Workers Party and then to the Workers Party. In my eyes scum of the earth but I am coming from a prejudiced perspective since im an Irp. They are degenerates and reactioanrys, courting UVF and UDA scum because of their wholey decrepit interpretation of Marxism. They assasinated the founder of the Irps and there was a bloody feud between the Irps and the sticks for many years in which alot of comrades were either shot dead, attacked, kneecapped or beaten to within an inch of their lives. For all I care I hope the scum rot in hell. They were massive years ago and had alot of councillors and TD's south of the partition in the 80s and 90s, but their TD's left to form the Democratic Left and then went on to join the Labour Party and the Irish Labour Party is argueably the most right wing in Europe. As of now they seem to be stagnant but I think they might still have a Councillor in Waterford.

Provisional Sinn Fein (Social Democrats) - I was debating whether to include them here or not but since alot of people seem to classify them as some form of Left Wing I though it best just to clarify my interpretation of them. Well from my analysis they are a Neo-Liberal Nationalist Party at the minute. They have gone into power with probably the most bigoted maintstream party in Western Europe, the Loyalist DUP. PSF have privatised the ports, given teachers assistants the boot, introduced water charges, voted for the banker bailout and are now debating as to whether privatise the public transport system. They speak with Social Democratic rehtorric but their policys are firmly Neo-Liberal.

Independants - This is something not looked at often here but there are some prominent and influential independants throughout Ireland and a history of them working for working class communities. The likes of Tony Gregory who is now deceased was a stalwart of the Dublin Working Class in the inner city and did sterling work for them. And even in my own town we have Declan Bree who has done immense work for the working class here.

[Delenda Carthago]

Cmon people!!!Still havent heard one optimistic view all across Europe!Wassup?
Where is Italy,where is France,where is Spain,where are the Russians,where is the uprising anarchosyndicalism,where are the trotskyists taking power day by day?

;)

[Bandito]

I can understand your optimism because you live in Greece, where the revolutionary movement is in much better shape than in most of Europe.
But, you have to understand that we, from other countries are not complacent about that matter, no matter how low things look at the moment. It takes time, action, learning and sacrifice to form a revolutionary movement somewhere where it is oppressed, lacks finances for the organization, and the social-historical climate works against you.
It's not an excuse, it is an analysis.
Here is the link to the revolutionary organizations from the former Yugoslavia region :
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1004520&postcount=1 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../showpost.php?p=1004520&postcount=1)
And you can also see the link in my signature of Balkan Conference that joins parties from the region (Bulgaria, Albania, Greece, Romania, Serbia and Turkey/North Kurdistan). From Greece, Κομμουνιστική Οργάνωση Ελλάδας (KOE) is a member.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

The Workers Solidarity Movement (Anarchist) - TBH I dont have much information on them. I have never actually met a WSM member in real life yet but the majority of things I have heard from them seem progressive. Although they did make a fool of themselves at the Royal Irish Regiment protest in Belfast a while ago. But I get their literature and what not and I do have time for them.

Independants - This is something not looked at often here but there are some prominent and influential independants throughout Ireland and a history of them working for working class communities. The likes of Tony Gregory who is now deceased was a stalwart of the Dublin Working Class in the inner city and did sterling work for them. And even in my own town we have Declan Bree who has done immense work for the working class here.
There's also Organise!, but I imagine you wouldn't be that keen on them either.

Cmon people!!!Still havent heard one optimistic view all across Europe!Wassup?
Where is Italy,where is France,where is Spain,where are the Russians,where is the uprising anarchosyndicalism,where are the trotskyists taking power day by day?

;)
Russia's a lot worse off than most of these places...Italy, France and Spain seem to be doing alright, though.

[Andropov]

There's also Organise!, but I imagine you wouldn't be that keen on them either.
Never seen or heard anything about them tbh.
But I never said I wasnt that gone on the WSM, like I said I have alot more respect for them than the likes of the Workers Party, SWP etc.
Overall the WSM are atually quite progressive Anarchists.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Never seen or heard anything about them tbh.
But I never said I wasnt that gone on the WSM, like I said I have alot more respect for them than the likes of the Workers Party, SWP etc.
Overall the WSM are atually quite progressive Anarchists.
Fair enough, they're probably pretty small. But the WSM (at least in anarcho circles) are known for being quite sympathetic to Republicanism, whereas Organise! are a lot more critical of it, hence why I thought you wouldn't be that keen. They did seem to be quite heavily involved in the campaign to defend the Roma families who were attacked in Belfast, as far as I can tell, and otherwise have a healthy orientation towards workplace struggles.

[Andropov]

Fair enough, they're probably pretty small. But the WSM (at least in anarcho circles) are known for being quite sympathetic to Republicanism, whereas Organise! are a lot more critical of it, hence why I thought you wouldn't be that keen. They did seem to be quite heavily involved in the campaign to defend the Roma families who were attacked in Belfast, as far as I can tell, and otherwise have a healthy orientation towards workplace struggles.
Well the WSM did engage with the North Belfast Civil Rights Assosciation in a march for houses which was progressive.
It was absurd when a few leftist organisations refused to join the campaign because it was deemed as "sectarian" apparently to look for equal housing, but as is life in Ireland and the left.
They did burn alot of their bridges how ever with Republicans when one of their members wrote how protesting the Royal Irish Regiment march in Belfast was sectarian? Bizarre to say the least. So the WSM decided to hold a separate protest away from the rest of the protestors. Words were said and eventually the WSM packed off. But irregaurdless I think on the whole WSM are a good crowd.

[Delenda Carthago]

I can understand your optimism because you live in Greece, where the revolutionary movement is in much better shape than in most of Europe.
But, you have to understand that we, from other countries are not complacent about that matter, no matter how low things look at the moment. It takes time, action, learning and sacrifice to form a revolutionary movement somewhere where it is oppressed, lacks finances for the organization, and the social-historical climate works against you.
It's not an excuse, it is an analysis.
Here is the link to the revolutionary organizations from the former Yugoslavia region :
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1004520&postcount=1 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../showpost.php?p=1004520&postcount=1)
And you can also see the link in my signature of Balkan Conference that joins parties from the region (Bulgaria, Albania, Greece, Romania, Serbia and Turkey/North Kurdistan). From Greece, Κομμουνιστική Οργάνωση Ελλάδας (KOE) is a member.

I know my friend the condition out there,but cmon!It can't be THAT bad!Until now I havent heard ONE optimistic opinion,I want to deduce some optimism!

[Ravachol]

A.In order to "mesure",if we can,some things,we need to compare it with the past.And what you are telling me is on that basis,right?

B.I mean,who has the streets,who has the numbers.

That varies with each country.
In Germany for example, an Antifa protest can draw thousands of people whilst in the Netherlands the biggest demos get around 400-500 people. Then again, the fascist movement in the Netherlands is small and very, very fragmented consisting of in-fighting groups that are more like drinking gangs than anything else.

In most countries in western-europe the Antifascist movement outnumbers the fascist movements though.



The left in the Netherlands:
Rode Morgen (Red Dawn): A very secretive Maoist cult. That's all I really know about them.


Red Dawn is EXTREMELY small and has been accused multiple times of being riddled with infiltrators and state agents. From what i've heard they're more akin to a cult based on family ties than an actual political movement.



Doorbraak (Breakthrough): A relative new formation, but I also know little about them. I think they are an amalgamation of some anarchist-platformist trends.


Doorbraak is a platformist group consisting of, I think, a variety of left-communists, council communists and class struggle anarchists.

Also, you're forgetting that there are some organised anarchist groups in the Netherlands.
For example:

Vrije Bond (Free Union):
Anarcho-Syndicalist platform unifying several anarchist groups, mainly active through the groups associated with it.
Anarchistische Groep Amsterdam (Anarchist Group Amsterdam):
Anarchist group associated with the Free Union.
Anarchistische Groep Nijmegen (Anarchist Group Nijmegen):
Anarchist group, not associated with any federation as far as I know. Created only very recently.
Zwols Anarchistisch Collectief (Zwols Anarchist Collective):
Anarchist collective mainly active in the east of the Netherlands, don't know much about them actually.
Anarchistische Antideportatiegroep Utrecht 'AAGU' (Anarchist Antideportation Group Utrecht):
Antideportation and anti-border group associated with the Free Union.

The thing with the Dutch Anarchist movement is that it is more of a loose network of individuals than a federation of groups.
Most activists are active in all kinds of affinity groups and campaigns and often do this on an individual basis and not as a member of any group.

[Delenda Carthago]

The thing with the Dutch Anarchist movement is that it is more of a loose network of individuals than a federation of groups.
Most activists are active in all kinds of affinity groups and campaigns and often do this on an individual basis and not as a member of any group.

Thats not necessarily bad.Here in Greece the 80% of the anarchists are not in a group or a team.But we keep it movin by making short-time teams with our comrades/friends so that we can print a tract,post a banner etc.And its more creative that way,because we can be more creative that way.

[Ravachol]

Thats not necessarily bad.Here in Greece the 80% of the anarchists are not in a group or a team.But we keep it movin by making short-time teams with our comrades/friends so that we can print a tract,post a banner etc.And its more creative that way,because we can be more creative that way.

Yes, but you actually have the numbers and popular support to be insurrectionary ;)

The Dutch political climate is at an alltime low since the right-wing populist sentiment which has been present for some time now has surfaced really prominently. The political climate and cultural hegemony are very much set against revolutionary leftism. Let alone insurrectionary Anarchism :crying:

[Q]

Also, you're forgetting that there are some organised anarchist groups in the Netherlands.
Right. I also forgot to mention the Internationale Kommunistische Stroming (ICC) which consists of a whole three persons in the Netherlands and perhaps five more in Belgium. Yet they somehow manage to publish a quarterly paper in the Netherlands and Belgium.

They also refuse to switch over to new Dutch spelling on words like "communism" (it's "communisme", they still write "kommunisme", which is pre-1995 spelling if I'm not mistaken). Probably because of some fundamental principle that makes all the rest of us leftwing-bourgeois :)

[Panda Tse Tung]

Right. I also forgot to mention the Internationale Kommunistische Stroming (ICC) which consists of a whole three persons in the Netherlands and perhaps five more in Belgium. Yet they somehow manage to publish a quarterly paper in the Netherlands and Belgium.

They also refuse to switch over to new Dutch spelling on words like "communism" (it's "communisme", they still write "kommunisme", which is pre-1995 spelling if I'm not mistaken). Probably because of some fundamental principle that makes all the rest of us leftwing-bourgeois :)
Actually seeing as the CP was CPN, i think it might even be far before 1995.

[Tjis]

Doorbraak is a platformist group consisting of, I think, a variety of left-communists, council communists and class struggle anarchists.

Are you sure they are platformist? I can't find anything about it on their site. What about Doorbraak is particulary platformist?

[Wanted Man]

Right. I also forgot to mention the Internationale Kommunistische Stroming (ICC) which consists of a whole three persons in the Netherlands and perhaps five more in Belgium. Yet they somehow manage to publish a quarterly paper in the Netherlands and Belgium.

They also refuse to switch over to new Dutch spelling on words like "communism" (it's "communisme", they still write "kommunisme", which is pre-1995 spelling if I'm not mistaken). Probably because of some fundamental principle that makes all the rest of us leftwing-bourgeois :)

Yeah, I also wonder why they use archaic spelling. And what do they actually do? I mean, I realize that's a bit of a dumb question to ask about the ICC anywhere, since "doing stuff" is bourgeois and that's why nobody can really become a member (http://nl.internationalism.org/watis/aansluiten). But still.

[Q]

Yeah, I also wonder why they use archaic spelling. And what do they actually do? I mean, I realize that's a bit of a dumb question to ask about the ICC anywhere, since "doing stuff" is bourgeois and that's why nobody can really become a member (http://nl.internationalism.org/watis/aansluiten). But still.

I love that document on how you can become a member. Although it does raise a number of good political points, its tone can be paraphrased as "you wanna become a member? No you can't. No, stop asking. Ok, sure? Jump to these hoops and when you're done, do it again, for months, years even. Then, when we're convinced you're really that nuts, you can join us, maybe".

Love the IKS :lol:

[Wanted Man]

My favourite part about it is that it does not actually provide any trajectory or perspective on when you can reasonably be expected to be allowed in.

Basically, you first need to understand and agree with everything the ICC says. Then you need to have "lengthy" discussion with their "delegations" to fully internalise their ideology. People who dropped out regardless of this are traitors and slanderers, of course. :) Then you need to give them money and spread their paper. And then? Well, we'll cross that bridge when we get there. First you need to show more determination!

[IrishWorker]

The Workers Party (Marxist-Leninist) - Formerly Official Sinn Fein, then changed to Sinn Fein The Workers Party and then to the Workers Party. In my eyes scum of the earth but I am coming from a prejudiced perspective since im an Irp. They are degenerates and reactioanrys, courting UVF and UDA scum because of their wholey decrepit interpretation of Marxism. They assasinated the founder of the Irps and there was a bloody feud between the Irps and the sticks for many years in which alot of comrades were either shot dead, attacked, kneecapped or beaten to within an inch of their lives. For all I care I hope the scum rot in hell. They were massive years ago and had alot of councillors and TD's south of the partition in the 80s and 90s, but their TD's left to form the Democratic Left and then went on to join the Labour Party and the Irish Labour Party is argueably the most right wing in Europe. As of now they seem to be stagnant but I think they might still have a Councillor in Waterford.


A good run down on the treacherous bastards

Fuck the scum mo chara.

The "Workers" Party also colluded with the British Army to identify PIRA members involved in the assassination of two undercover Brit squddies in Belfast in 1988.

The RUC allowed members of the “Workers” Party to openly carry personal protection weapons through out the War to defend themselves from Republicans.

[Ravachol]

Are you sure they are platformist? I can't find anything about it on their site. What about Doorbraak is particulary platformist?

I heard it from someone, i'm not sure though. To be honest I don't know a lot about Doorbraak except that they're heavily involved in the multicultural and anti-deportation debate. From what I've read I guess they're pretty close to the ideological line of 'Fabel van de Illegaal'.

Anyhow, I think the Netherlands is lacking a decent platformist organisation and I think it'd contribute significantly to the anarchist movement as a whole, especially when it comes to combatting spontaneism and actionism preventing the formation of a coherent movement.

[Hoggy_RS]

The Workers Party (Marxist-Leninist) - Formerly Official Sinn Fein, then changed to Sinn Fein The Workers Party and then to the Workers Party. In my eyes scum of the earth but I am coming from a prejudiced perspective since im an Irp. They are degenerates and reactioanrys, courting UVF and UDA scum because of their wholey decrepit interpretation of Marxism. They assasinated the founder of the Irps and there was a bloody feud between the Irps and the sticks for many years in which alot of comrades were either shot dead, attacked, kneecapped or beaten to within an inch of their lives. For all I care I hope the scum rot in hell. They were massive years ago and had alot of councillors and TD's south of the partition in the 80s and 90s, but their TD's left to form the Democratic Left and then went on to join the Labour Party and the Irish Labour Party is argueably the most right wing in Europe. As of now they seem to be stagnant but I think they might still have a Councillor in Waterford.

They still have a counciller in cork, Ted Tynan. Seems to be a good politician but I've been to told he has a less than squeaky clean past.

The party is certainly on the way out, look at any of their protests and its a load of middle aged to pensioner aged men. I was shocked to find they actually have a youth wing, though i can't imagine it has many members.

Also theres a few WSM heads in my college, you see them walking around the place with the red and black flag the odd time but besides that i'm not sure what else they get upto in Cork.

RSF didnt make the list of revolutionary groups?:lol:

[Ravachol]

They still have a counciller in cork, Ted Tynan. Seems to be a good politician but I've been to told he has a less than squeaky clean past.

The party is certainly on the way out, look at any of their protests and its a load of middle aged to pensioner aged men. I was shocked to find they actually have a youth wing, though i can't imagine it has many members.

Also theres a few WSM heads in my college, you see them walking around the place with the red and black flag the odd time but besides that i'm not sure what else they get upto in Cork.

RSF didnt make the list of revolutionary groups?:lol:

I don't think RSF can't be considered revolutionary (anymore). Although I'm sure they have some well-meaning members and the CIRA has some dedicated well-meaning volunteers, their politics reek of petit-bourgois conservative nationalism to me. Despite not being 'all that', 32CSM at least has a generally progressive ideological line.

[Tjis]

Anyhow, I think the Netherlands is lacking a decent platformist organisation and I think it'd contribute significantly to the anarchist movement as a whole, especially when it comes to combatting spontaneism and actionism preventing the formation of a coherent movement.

I agree with this. We have so much to offer, but our current (lack of) structures simply don't allow anything but single issue activism. We need to move beyond that.

[IrishWorker]

I don't think RSF can't be considered revolutionary (anymore). Although I'm sure they have some well-meaning members and the CIRA has some dedicated well-meaning volunteers, their politics reek of petit-bourgois conservative nationalism to me. Despite not being 'all that', 32CSM at least has a generally progressive ideological line.
The 32s only pay lip service to Marxism I know a few of them from around my area and they are as far from Republican Socialists as can be.
I seen from there last AGM that they have some decent motions but they had been copied and pasted from the IRSCNA proposals at its AGM so nobody from the 32s actually sat down and wrote them.

[Bandito]

Change the thread title into "Advertise your party".

[Q]

Change the thread title into "Advertise your party".

Why? Of course bias is going to play a role here, but this thread hasn't been only about our own parties but to give a picture of the movement in our respective countries. The title thusly fits.

[Bandito]

Our admin is tired and didn't get my sarcasm.

[Andropov]

I don't think RSF can't be considered revolutionary (anymore). Although I'm sure they have some well-meaning members and the CIRA has some dedicated well-meaning volunteers, their politics reek of petit-bourgois conservative nationalism to me. Despite not being 'all that', 32CSM at least has a generally progressive ideological line.
Im pretty sure Hoggy was being sarcastic there.
I dont think Hoggy actually considers The Rosary Beed Brigade as Revolutionarys.

[black magick hustla]

I love that document on how you can become a member. Although it does raise a number of good political points, its tone can be paraphrased as "you wanna become a member? No you can't. No, stop asking. Ok, sure? Jump to these hoops and when you're done, do it again, for months, years even. Then, when we're convinced you're really that nuts, you can join us, maybe".

Love the IKS :lol:

i cant read that but you dont really "get" it".

the whole point of a "centralist" organization is that the members of it are quite aware of the politics, and they are not just the average communist party foot soldier that just pays dues and is a yes-man. of course it is in the advantage of these "parties" to do this, after all they get the money without any sort of questioning. ask our swp friends

second, "iccers" dont see themselves as a vanguard mass party. they see themselves as a minority within the class. its a very different view. we are not going to make revolution, the working class will, and we are part of it.

and tbh, the whole "number" thing is bs. nobody cares about the CWI or the ten people that make up the NCP either.

[black magick hustla]

[QUOTE=Wanted Man;1626840Then you need to give them money and spread their paper. [/QUOTE]

considering that the icc has spent hundreds of dollars on me, you are a liar

[black magick hustla]

this thread is shit btw. it has turned into which party waves the biggest cock.

[Hoggy_RS]

Im pretty sure Hoggy was being sarcastic there.
I dont think Hoggy actually considers The Rosary Beed Brigade as Revolutionarys.
Indeed I was!

[Andropov]

and tbh, the whole "number" thing is bs. nobody cares about the CWI.
You say that but here in Ireland they are certainly cared about.
A Socialist Party representative in the Dublin Constituency was one of 3 MEP's to get elected in the last European Election.
I know you will come out with your ultra leftist drivel about participating in Bourgeois parliaments bla bla bla but it certainly demonstrates that in that single constituency enough people care about the CWI's candidate to see him elected, so kind of making your point redundant, if it even was a point?

[Jonas Elossov]

Belgium:

Partij van de Arbeid/Parti du Travail Belge (Workers Party of Belgium) (Ex-maoist/ Marxist-Leninist) - 2500 members; has moved to the right in recent years, lowering their membership status and adopting a reformist program during elections. Youth organisations is Comac. 0,9% in last elections

Linkse Socialistische Partij - Parti Socialiste de Lutte (Left Socialist Party, Socialist Struggle Party) (Belgian section of the CWI) - 300 members. Mainly active in Students organisations and Trade-Unions. Youth organisation is ALS/EGA. 0,3% in last elections

Vonk (Spark) (Belgian Section of the IMT) - 35 members. Active within the social-democratic party and behind its left faction SPA-rood. Connected with Hands of Venezuela Campaign. Youth organisation is VMS. Participated with some SPa-rood candidates on the lists of the social-democratic SPa, last election.

Socialistische Arbeiderspartij - Ligue Communiste Revolutionaire - (Belgian Section of the Mandelites) 100 members. There's a liquidationist tendency in the organisation with a flemish majority. SAP did not participate in the elections. LCR participated in the Euro-elections together with the PSL and Communist Party in Brussels. 0,2%

Communistische Partij (marxist-leninist) - a few tens of active members. Old Belgian Communist party. Now an intellectual grouping. Did not participate in the elections

Parti Communiste (marxist-leninist) - Some more members than their Flemish counterparts, but on an all-time low in the elections. Participated with LCR and PSL in Brussels. In Wallonia it got 0,2%.

Committee for a different politics - Platform created by LSP-PSL, SAP-LCR and a split of the social-democrats some years ago, but failed. Lives on as a marginal leftwing organisation. Participated in last elections 0,1%

[Delenda Carthago]

I think its time for a catch up,dont y all think?

[Delenda Carthago]

Allow me take the first word.

Here in Greece its all messed up. KKE is getting banned by neoliberal channels and radio stations because one of its strikes was announced illegal but it did it anyway,anarchists are being stuffed in prisons,people are full of rage,the consernatives are starting to call for a new Junta...