Labour Zionism

[ComradeMan]

Before everyone has a fit at the use of the Z-word here!:)

Zionism is usually taken to mean Nationalist Zionism but there are different forms of Zionism too. What about Labour/Socialist Zionism? Left-Zionism supports for example a two-state solution and tried to promote more dialogue in Arab-Israeli relations.

What is the evaluation of Labour Zionism here?

"As opposed to Practical and Political Zionism, Labor Zionism desired to establish an agriculturist society not on the basis of a private-bourgeoisie society, but rather on the basis of moral equality"

Could anything be learnt from the various Kibbutzim? Even if we were perhaps to exclude the cultural/historical side and view only the model itself.

[Yehuda Stern]

Do you see the quote in my signature? As you can see, it's from a Labor Zionist newspaper. Labor Zionism is actually the tendency which created Israel and which is chiefly responsible for the expulsion of Palestinians and most of the country's wars.

Left Zionism does support two states - since the first intifadah, which started in the late 1980s. But in what way is the idea of two states progressive? Its result, should it ever be implemented, is that what we see in Gaza will happen in the West Bank as well - Israel will have complete control over the Palestinians and can carry out assaults on them whenever it pleases.

As for promoting more dialogue in Israeli-Arab relations, I have no idea where you got that idea.

The kibbutzim, by the way, have all gone one of two ways - they either got privatized or took over capitalist corporations and started running them. What can we learn from that? That colonialists cannot build a socialist society, let alone without a revolution.

[ComradeMan]

Labor Zionism is actually the tendency which created Israel and which is chiefly responsible for the expulsion of Palestinians and most of the country's wars.

As for promoting more dialogue in Israeli-Arab relations, I have no idea where you got that idea.

The kibbutzim, by the way, have all gone one of two ways - they either got privatized or took over capitalist corporations and started running them. What can we learn from that? That colonialists cannot build a socialist society, let alone without a revolution.

-So much for the "left". Thought as much my self...

-I found it quoted on several internet sources.
http://ameinu.net/perspectives/peacearchives.php

The Union of Progressive Zionists was also criticised by hardline "right" or pro Israeli factions for its support of Breaking the Silence.
http://www.shovrimshtika.org/news_item_e.asp?id=30

-I am aware of the kibbutzim and their privatisation but as a model the successes and failures of the collaborative model could be useful. I have heard it said that the decline and change in the kibbutzim was also due to a general capitalisation and globalisation process and the change in mentality of the kibbutzers. I was not aware to the extent at which they have become capitalistic. So much for the "dream" too.

It's interesting to say how movements and concepts mutate with the passage of time.. here is a quote from Borochov:-

"Many point out the obstacles which we encounter in our colonization work. Some say that he Turkish law hinders our work, others contend that Palestine is insignificantly small, and still others charge us with the odious crime of wishing to oppress and expel the Arabs from Palestine... (http://www.zionism-israel.com/hdoc/ber_borochov_national_question.htm#n15)When the waste lands are prepared for colonization, when modern echnique is introduced, and when the other obstacles are removed, there will be sufficient land to accommodate both the Jews and the Arabs. Normal relations between the Jews and Arabs will and must prevail. (Ber Borochov - Eretz Yisrael in our program and tactics (http://www.zionism-israel.com/hdoc/Borochov_Eretz_Yisrael_Program.htm) Kiev, September 1917)"
http://www.mideastweb.org/labor_zionism.htm

Although there is a general accusation that by the 1920's the socialist principles of Labour Zionism had by and large been abandoned, with the heavier accusation of these principles having been merely a "front" for the vanguard Zionist movement in the first place.

[Yehuda Stern]

I don't really think you're getting it. Zionism hasn't "mutated over time." It has always been a reactionary colonialist project, the only thing that has changed is the rhetoric. Everything you quote here just illustrates that.

[Dimentio]

Before everyone has a fit at the use of the Z-word here!:)

Zionism is usually taken to mean Nationalist Zionism but there are different forms of Zionism too. What about Labour/Socialist Zionism? Left-Zionism supports for example a two-state solution and tried to promote more dialogue in Arab-Israeli relations.

What is the evaluation of Labour Zionism here?

"As opposed to Practical and Political Zionism, Labor Zionism desired to establish an agriculturist society not on the basis of a private-bourgeoisie society, but rather on the basis of moral equality"

Could anything be learnt from the various Kibbutzim? Even if we were perhaps to exclude the cultural/historical side and view only the model itself.

Zionism per definition is a form of nationalism. It is per definition about the exclusive right of one ethnic group to establish a state to gain the perceived interests of that ethnic on a territory inhabitated by many ethnic groups historically.

Then it might have "my little ponies" on its flag or whatever. Its still reactionary crap. Antisemitism is generated by the injustices built into the current class systems. It will exist as long as there is classes.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Jews coulda just moved to Palestine and lived there as Jewish Palestinians...

Side note: Einstein was a Socialist/Zionist.

[Revy]

Side note: Einstein was a Socialist/Zionist.

Well, he said this:
"My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain—especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state. ... If external necessity should after all compel us to assume this burden, let us bear it with tact and patience"

He also signed this 1948 letter (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/1948/12/02.htm) to the New York Times.

[Yehuda Stern]

Yeah, Zionists try to claim Einstein was a Zionist all the time. He wasn't. Rather, he and Hannah Arendt accepted Israel's existence and hoped that its leadership would become more moderate. That makes them reformists, not Zionists.