Irish Police Ballot on Strike action

[Coggeh]

Irish Police have set out to ballot on strike action because of the forthcoming paycuts in Wednesdays budget. This was after a long line of cuts for public service workers. However:

It is illegal for gardai(irish police) to go on strike in Ireland yet it looks like if it goes to the ballot strike action will be supported by the rank and file who have been pressuring the union leaders for action, union leaders under this pressure voted unanimosly for a ballot on strike action .

In effect they will be breaking the law but whos going to arrest them eh ?

Responce from Justice Minister :
Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern says the Government will not tolerate any industrial action by An Garda Síochána.


Dermot Ahern was responding to the announcement earlier today by the Garda Representative Association that they will ballot its members for industrial action.


The Minister said the move was a challenge to the authority of the State and one which the Government would not countenance.


Thoughts? I say this is pretty fucking good from what many on this site like to call "class traitors"

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Now this , is going to be fucking interesting.

[IrishWorker]

http://newsfeed.tcm.ie/media/images/d/dermotahernapr08pa.jpg Justice Minister Dermot Ahern


Ahern: Gardaí who strike could face legal action

Monday, December 07, 2009 - 05:06 PM

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern has said that the Government will take legal action against gardaí if they decide to go on strike.

It follows an announcement by the Garda Representative Association that it is going to ballot its members on industrial action, even though gardai are not legally allowed to withdraw their labour.

The GRA says its taking the action in response to the collapse of pay talks with the Government last week.

But Minister Ahern said gardaí who go on strike leave themselves open to both civil and criminal legal action.

"We will pursue anything within the law," Minister Ahern said. "The people who uphold the law can't be law-breakers… no society can countenance that, no democracy can countenance that.

"I think people need to reflect on this. The only thing that this will do - if they were to go on strike - the only people it would help would be the criminals."


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/ahern-gardai-who-strike-could-face-legal-action-437321.html#ixzz0Z3Ecv2M8

[IrishWorker]

Garda chief under fire in Irish abuse probe


(http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/garda-chief-under-fire-in-irish-abuse-probe-14574623.html?action=Email)






(http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/garda-chief-under-fire-in-irish-abuse-probe-14574623.html#aaa)



A former Garda Commissioner and other senior gardai had improper communications with an Archbishop of Dublin in relation to criminal investigations into the abuse of children.


The cosy relationship between the gardai and the Catholic Church hierarchy is singled out for criticism in the long-awaited report by the inquiry into clerical sex abuse in the Dublin archdiocese, it has been learned.
The commission limited its inquiry into how the Dublin archdiocese dealt with sex abuse to cover 1975 to 2004. However, it is believed that investigators followed open files dating back several decades.
It is understood that the report makes unfavourable comments on how senior members of the gardai, including a Commissioner (since deceased), had inappropriate dealings with the late Archbishop John Charles McQuaid when he headed the Dublin diocese.
The long-awaited report of the commission set up to investigate child abuse in the Dublin archdiocese will be published today by the Justice Minister Dermot Ahern and Children's Minister Barry Andrews.
Despite its criticisms, the report also praises other more junior members of the gardai who diligently investigated complaints of priests abusing children within the Dublin archdiocese.
It is believed the report will also criticise the lack of structures within the gardai to deal with the problem at a time when the hierarchy of the Church was one of the most powerful elites in the State.
Details of the communications between the gardai and the archdiocese — criticised by the commission — were contained in the archdiocese's files.
The commission trawled through thousands of files over more than nine years. It found the four archbishops of Dublin who preceded Dr Diarmuid Martin knew that priests were abusing children over a 35-year period.
The commission also criticises the four archbishops' failure to report the crimes to the gardai until 1995.
Although some boys who were abused by priests were passed on to the priests' friends to be abused again, the commission did not find evidence of a paedophile ring operating in the Dublin archdiocese.
It will also say the archdiocese of Dublin knew about the grave nature of the allegations against priests before it took out insurance to cover compensation for their sexual abuse.
The commission, which was headed by High Court Judge Yvonne Murphy, is expected to thank the current Archbishop of Dublin, Dr Martin, who gave her team unrestricted access to the archdiocese's files.




Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/garda-chief-under-fire-in-irish-abuse-probe-14574623.html#ixzz0Z3FKvcA1 (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/garda-chief-under-fire-in-irish-abuse-probe-14574623.html#ixzz0Z3FKvcA1)

[IrishWorker]

Garda highly secretive, says law expert

In this section » (http://www.revleft.com/)

[/URL]

KATHRYN HAYES
THE GARDA is one of the most secretive police forces in the world, according to a professor in criminal law.
Prof Dermot Walsh, director of the Centre of Criminal Justice at the University of Limerick, was speaking in Limerick yesterday at a conference on Police Governance and Accountability, organised by the college.
According to Prof Walsh, who delivered at paper on Garda corruption and reform, the Garda does not publish documents and policies that it should do as a publicly accountable body.
“It is still the case, for example, that standing orders covering all aspects of Garda management and practices are not publicly accessible. The same applies to the existence and contents of Garda policies. For as long as such basic information is kept secret, transparent governance and accountability will remain elusive and the Garda will continue to be one of the most secretive police forces in the western world,” he continued.
Prof Walsh said some “major progress” was made in recent years in relation to Garda accountability to the public but he warned that major challenges must be faced.
“The lack of transparency is one; the gardaí still hold on to this institutionalised notion of secrecy. Unlike many other police forces in western liberal democracies, they are reluctant to open up. They really need to start allowing their policies, their practices to be opened up to public scrutiny,” he added.
According to Kathleen O’Toole, chief inspector of the Garda Inspectorate, while there is “always room for improvement” the Garda is one of the world’s most accountable police forces.
“The Garda is far more accountable than the Boston police where I came from and far more accountable than most US police services,” she said.
“I think the Garda enjoys an 80 per cent satisfaction rate with the public but there is always room for improvement no matter where we are in the world, be it Boston Dublin or Belfast,” she continued.
In his paper, which discussed complaints, Kieran Fitzgerald of the Garda Ombudsman Commission, sought to justify involving gardaí in some of the commission’s investigations.
He said that many people believed that involving gardaí in investigations was a return to the old, flawed system of gardaí investigating gardaí.
“I’m trying to show that the underlying philosophy of inculcating this culture of accountability is something that is worthwhile and good and does justify involving the guards,” he said.

[URL]http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1204/1224260042959.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1204/1224260044235.html)

[IrishWorker]

The Irish Garda is one of the most corrupt secretive and anti working class bodies that ever existed in the History of modern Ireland.
They cover up clerical sexual abuse of orphans they harass Republicans and Socialists they kill working class kids from inner city Dublin who are in there custody.
A shower of scum accountable to nobody but themselves.

[Soldier of life]

The Irish Garda is one of the most corrupt secretive and anti working class bodies that ever existed in the History of modern Ireland.
They cover up clerical sexual abuse of orphans they harass Republicans and Socialists they kill working class kids from inner city Dublin who are in there custody.
A shower of scum accountable to nobody but themselves.

They are all of the above. Not so long ago when there was mass drug raids in sligo, dozens of properties raided, not one single Sligo garda was informed because they knew they are corrupt and would leak it to the dealers. They certainly are class traitors, but if they do strike it has to be encouraged!

[Saorsa]

Even if police unions strike for higher pay etc like workers should, they also strike for the right to beat up prisoners with impunity, have more weapons, detain prisoners for longer, etc etc etc

And when they leave their 'picket line' they'll go back to their day job of enforcing the capitalist law and generally swaggering around like arrogant thugs.

[Andropov]

They are pretty much filth.
At the height of the heroin epidemic in Dublin there was Heroin found on the streets in Garda evidence bags.
And yet they crush the community mobilisation within these Inner City ghettos that were formed to rid the scourge of Heroin and pay the Heroin dealers as touts.
More concerned with working class people mobilising themselves than the death pushers on the streets.
Thats not even to mention the glorious past of our very own Special Branch.
The fact that Republicans will tell you that the Free State Special Branch are worse than the British Special Branch north of the partition says alot.
All following in the tradition of Broys Harriers, worse than the B Men in Dublin Castle.

[ls]

More concerned with working class people mobilising themselves than the death pushers on the streets.

Indeed, they've always repressed any revolutionary potential in Ireland, existing as a quintessential part of the "Free State" apparatus to stop any sort of working-class revolution in Ireland.

While this is an interesting topic to be posted about (and indeed, those who mutiny and join the workers' movement - as arguably at the time the world's most reactionary police force - the RUC did, in Belfast in 1907), I don't think the left should really support these strikes.

Perhaps some form of completely anti-state direct action could redeem them, nonetheless, just because they are pushing for their own demands and breaking the law by striking - it doesn't mean that they aren't doing it purely for their own self-interest.

An act such as marching with communities and attacking drug dealers (out of their official capacity), or openly denouncing the government and perhaps protesting against them then resigning would indeed redeem them.

Alternatively, refusing to take reactionary anti-worker orders from their managers on a mass scale (altho, there would undoubtedly be a LOT of those who refuse to listen and go ahead with their normal shite job - they would need to be put down by force by other officers) might redeem them as well. This is all really speculative and unlikely but in my eyes, nothing short of that would redeem them as being pro-worker.

[The Deepest Red]

Indeed, they've always repressed any revolutionary potential in Ireland, existing as a quintessential part of the "Free State" apparatus to stop any sort of working-class revolution in Ireland.

While this is an interesting topic to be posted about (and indeed, those who mutiny and join the workers' movement - as arguably at the time the world's most reactionary police force - the RUC did, in Belfast in 1907), I don't think the left should really support these strikes.

Perhaps some form of completely anti-state direct action could redeem them, nonetheless, just because they are pushing for their own demands and breaking the law by striking - it doesn't mean that they aren't doing it purely for their own self-interest.

An act such as marching with communities and attacking drug dealers (out of their official capacity), or openly denouncing the government and perhaps protesting against them then resigning would indeed redeem them.

Alternatively, refusing to take reactionary anti-worker orders from their managers on a mass scale (altho, there would undoubtedly be a LOT of those who refuse to listen and go ahead with their normal shite job - they would need to be put down by force by other officers) might redeem them as well. This is all really speculative and unlikely but in my eyes, nothing short of that would redeem them as being pro-worker.

I think the prospect of winning over many of the officers is pretty limited but we must try nonetheless. It's complete ultra-leftism to only want to preach to the converted. If striking workers are racist or in this case agents of the bourgeois state we should still support their demands and show them (and more importantly the wider working class) the error of their ways.

[cyu]

In effect they will be breaking the law but whos going to arrest them eh ?

Good one :lol:

Reminds me of this excerpt from bloodless revolution (http://everything2.com/user/gate/writeups/bloodless+revolution):

Mass Civil Disobedience
This involves changing the government by organizing very large numbers of people to openly defy the law. If even large sections of the police population join in, then the political system would have effectively changed, even without actual legislation.

[Coggeh]

I think the prospect of winning over many of the officers is pretty limited but we must try nonetheless. It's complete ultra-leftism to only want to preach to the converted. If striking workers are racist or in this case agents of the bourgeois state we should still support their demands and show them (and more importantly the wider working class) the error of their ways.
Exactly.
For example: in 1907 at the Dockers and carters strike in Belfast which Larkin lead.The infectious "contagion" of Larkinism spread to the police. At the time of the carters' lock out Larkin had made an appeal to the police by referring to the long hours they were forced to work escorting scabs for "not a penny extra". A few days later one RIC officer, Constable Barrett, refused to escort a scab carter. He was suspended but managed to call two meetings in Musgrave Street Barracks which around 800 of the 1,000 strong RIC force attended. Demands were drawn up on pay and pensions and presented as an ultimatum to the senior officers. But instead of coming out on strike immediately the potential mutineers gave the RIC chiefs a ultimatum - either meet their demands by 6 August or they would strike.
This example shows that police albeit their role is defense of the state and private property are workers in uniform and with this proposed strike will mean that the conciousness of police will be raised meaning more police will be less inclined towards strike breaking or escorting scabs .

It is to be fully supported and is utter ultra leftism not to .

[IrishWorker]

Exactly.
For example: in 1907 at the Dockers and carters strike in Belfast which Larkin lead.The infectious "contagion" of Larkinism spread to the police. At the time of the carters' lock out Larkin had made an appeal to the police by referring to the long hours they were forced to work escorting scabs for "not a penny extra". A few days later one RIC officer, Constable Barrett, refused to escort a scab carter. He was suspended but managed to call two meetings in Musgrave Street Barracks which around 800 of the 1,000 strong RIC force attended. Demands were drawn up on pay and pensions and presented as an ultimatum to the senior officers. But instead of coming out on strike immediately the potential mutineers gave the RIC chiefs a ultimatum - either meet their demands by 6 August or they would strike.
This example shows that police albeit their role is defense of the state and private property are workers in uniform and with this proposed strike will mean that the conciousness of police will be raised meaning more police will be less inclined towards strike breaking or escorting scabs .

It is to be fully supported and is utter ultra leftism not to .
And the ring leaders of the Belfast RIC strike were gathered and two were dismissed from the force.
Yes you’re above post is all is true mo chara.

"It is to be fully supported and is utter ultra leftism not to."

Could you elaborate on this comment?

[Andropov]

Exactly.
For example: in 1907 at the Dockers and carters strike in Belfast which Larkin lead.The infectious "contagion" of Larkinism spread to the police. At the time of the carters' lock out Larkin had made an appeal to the police by referring to the long hours they were forced to work escorting scabs for "not a penny extra". A few days later one RIC officer, Constable Barrett, refused to escort a scab carter. He was suspended but managed to call two meetings in Musgrave Street Barracks which around 800 of the 1,000 strong RIC force attended. Demands were drawn up on pay and pensions and presented as an ultimatum to the senior officers. But instead of coming out on strike immediately the potential mutineers gave the RIC chiefs a ultimatum - either meet their demands by 6 August or they would strike.
This example shows that police albeit their role is defense of the state and private property are workers in uniform and with this proposed strike will mean that the conciousness of police will be raised meaning more police will be less inclined towards strike breaking or escorting scabs .

It is to be fully supported and is utter ultra leftism not to .
I think that above passage only supports our arguement about the inherent degenerate nature of the pitbulls of the establishment.
Just because somebody strikes it does not equat to being progressive or being automatically Marxist.
The strike must be judged in its individual context.
These peelers are not seeking a change of government, or greater accountability in govenment or a general advancement of workers rights.
They are striking to save their pay packets, this is not Ultra Leftist, its just the material context of the situation.
Now if the strike was mobilised along with some form of sympathetic strike along with the proletariat then I would support it.
But its a strike in defence of their benefits as a reactionary force used to stamp out worker mobilisation, they have no qualms about suppressing workers or working class advancement.
But given that it does undermine the establishment even further its something that works to our benefit but dont expect me to be calling them workers in uniform or anything like that.

[BOZG]

I think that above passage only supports our arguement about the inherent degenerate nature of the pitbulls of the establishment.
Just because somebody strikes it does not equat to being progressive or being automatically Marxist.
The strike must be judged in its individual context.
These peelers are not seeking a change of government, or greater accountability in govenment or a general advancement of workers rights.
They are striking to save their pay packets, this is not Ultra Leftist, its just the material context of the situation.
Now if the strike was mobilised along with some form of sympathetic strike along with the proletariat then I would support it.
But its a strike in defence of their benefits as a reactionary force used to stamp out worker mobilisation, they have no qualms about suppressing workers or working class advancement.
But given that it does undermine the establishment even further its something that works to our benefit but dont expect me to be calling them workers in uniform or anything like that.

Yeah, fair enough, they are striking for their own narrow interests.

But as your rightly said, this is undermining the state and that is something that should be supported. You can support strikes for tactical reasons without giving full support to all their demands. To be honest, I don't think the quote that Coggeh gave was the best to give, unless it was in the full context. In 1907, they did initially threaten to strike on the basis of "reactionary" grounds but there was some developments in links between striking workers and the cops. Consciousness is a very fluid thing, particularly in periods of heightened struggle.

We constantly argue that by workers taking action, they can develop a better class consciousness. The cops aren't exempt from that process either though they're obviously coming from a much lower level. The fact that the "priviliged" position they have in a society is coming under direct threat and they're being told that they're not as special as they think will have an impact on conscious. Had this happened in the middle of the boom, I think it would have less of an impact on conscious but in the context of what's currently going on around them, it has to be raising some questions in their minds.

Secondly, there has been a relatively substantial change in the demographics of the Gardaí. Cops were always dismissed as culchie fuckers in Dublin because the majority of them were country boys sent up to the big smoke. But walk around Dublin today and you'll find a sizable chunk of them are young, working class and from Dublin. And they go back home to working class communities. They're not as removed from reality as they once were.

[The Deepest Red]

Does anyone know if the Special Branch and ERU will be involved in any potential strike? :cool:

[Andropov]

We constantly argue that by workers taking action, they can develop a better class consciousness.
I would not see taking action in itself as a way to develop class consciousness.
The action is totally redundant unless the context is right.
As in the massively successfull loyalist strike north of the partition after sunningdale is a perfect example.
It was a well orchestrated strike that was completely reactionary in context and in outcome.

The cops aren't exempt from that process either though they're obviously coming from a much lower level. The fact that the "priviliged" position they have in a society is coming under direct threat and they're being told that they're not as special as they think will have an impact on conscious. Had this happened in the middle of the boom, I think it would have less of an impact on conscious but in the context of what's currently going on around them, it has to be raising some questions in their minds.
I wouldnt say that they are coming from a much lower level of class consciousness, I would say that there class consciousness is perfect.
They are the gaurdians of capital and the establishment, they are the parasites of Production and industry, there to hang on the coat tails of the workers.
They are not workers in unifom, their whole position within society is to copper fasten the status quo and thus why they have a reactionary position, not because of lacking class consciousness.

But as for the rest of your post I would largely agree with it.
What must be raised though is that the Front Line Organisation whereby all the major front line Union representatives involved as immensly progressive.
If the Gardai do strike within that context, as in sympathetically with the workers then I would fully support that.
But as for this it serves to undermine the establishment which works in our interests but the Gardai arent our class allys just yet.

[Pogue]

fuck the gardai, reactionary bastards and deserving of nothing for their part in various anti-working class actions, same as the police anywhere.

[IrishWorker]

fuck the gardai, reactionary bastards and deserving of nothing for their part in various anti-working class actions, same as the police anywhere.
Never a truer word spoken.

A member of the movement got 5 years today for alleged INLA membership handed down by these bastards and there pay masters.

Comrade Anthony Lees misses is due to give birth at the end of January and these free state scum banged him up for 5 fucking years.

[Coggeh]

I think that above passage only supports our arguement about the inherent degenerate nature of the pitbulls of the establishment.
Just because somebody strikes it does not equat to being progressive or being automatically Marxist.
The strike must be judged in its individual context.
These peelers are not seeking a change of government, or greater accountability in govenment or a general advancement of workers rights.
They are striking to save their pay packets, this is not Ultra Leftist, its just the material context of the situation.
I'm sorry but most workers strike to not to change government, not to support other workers but to defend their pay & conditions. And obviously we support these strikes but intervene in them in order to attach them to goals of overthrowing the government etc.




Now if the strike was mobilised along with some form of sympathetic strike along with the proletariat then I would support it.
But its a strike in defence of their benefits as a reactionary force used to stamp out worker mobilisation, they have no qualms about suppressing workers or working class advancement.
Their role in society is to protect private property and defend the state. It is obvious their role is reactionary but the men in uniform may not always to the racist drug pushing thugs ones portray them to be . Which is why it would be a huge mistake not to support and appeal to guards to support other rights in order to raise class conciousness which could result in them becoming more politically aware towards working class mobilisations and to favour them more .

For example this isn't just about pay but is linked to giving Gardai the right to strike in Ireland, which would mean any general strike called would involve Gardai. Which would in turn mean ... who's going to break the strikes ? No one .This is why it would be silly to not support the strike because if it is fully successful it can achieve a huge change with concerns to the role of the gardai regarding workers movements.


But given that it does undermine the establishment even further its something that works to our benefit but dont expect me to be calling them workers in uniform or anything like that.
Fair enough.

[Andropov]

I'm sorry but most workers strike to not to change government, not to support other workers but to defend their pay & conditions. And obviously we support these strikes but intervene in them in order to attach them to goals of overthrowing the government etc.
Of course workers strike primarily for their own financial benefit.
BUT you are ignoring the position within society that workers are in and the position that peelers are in, the over arching context of their class position.
In this context peelers class position is tied inextricably to the bourgeois and NOT to the workers.
A worker striking for increased shares of the very profit they create is not comparable to a peeler striking for a greater wage off the Bourgeois to fulfill its class position as the pitbulls of capitalism.

Their role in society is to protect private property and defend the state. It is obvious their role is reactionary but the men in uniform may not always to the racist drug pushing thugs ones portray them to be .
Ohh I agree, there are good individuals in every organisation.
But you are neglecting your Marxist analysis here and failing to analyse the very class position of the peelers.
It is the class position of them that we oppose them, this class position is inherently reactionary.
That same sentimental arguement could be applied to the Bourgeois, indeed it was tot he likes of William Martin Murphy when the media stated he wasnt all bad, he gave generously to charity etc.
Marxists must not get entangled in sentimental arguements, it distorts the clarity of material marxist analysis.

Which is why it would be a huge mistake not to support and appeal to guards to support other rights in order to raise class conciousness which could result in them becoming more politically aware towards working class mobilisations and to favour them more .
As I stated before the Front Line organisation is a progressive move with regaurds the Gardai as it ties them to the workers struggle and not their own individual class interests.

For example this isn't just about pay but is linked to giving Gardai the right to strike in Ireland, which would mean any general strike called would involve Gardai. Which would in turn mean ... who's going to break the strikes ? No one .
That is if the Gardai are tied to the workers.
And as I said that is why I recognise the Front Line organisation as being immensly progressive in that regaurd.

This is why it would be silly to not support the strike because if it is fully successful it can achieve a huge change with concerns to the role of the gardai regarding workers movements.
As I said before I recognise the strike as being a blow to the establishement but until the Gardai fully abandon their class interests with the Bourgeois and strike with the workers then I wont be calling them my class Allys.

[Pogue]

As I said before I recognise the strike as being a blow to the establishement but until the Gardai fully abandon their class interests with the Bourgeois and strike with the workers then I wont be calling them my class Allys.


Yeh, and of course the chances of them ever declaring themselves for the working class is absolute zero, the best we could hope for are mass defections.

[pastradamus]

As someone who has been involved in trade unions for a long time now let me make this statement:


FUCK THE GARDAÍ

We are not here to discuss what class they fall into - they have no class.
The police force in Ireland - as in every country are there to protect the interests of the state against the lowers classes. The "interests" of this state are the wealthy and so the police are authorised to protect the bourgeois from any onslaught. What annoys me is that they actually have the Nerve to stand next to our firemen, teachers, council workers and nurse's and join the exploited.

Watch this video, It might bring back some memories.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5pjFhQr9pI


Thats what your precious police force is there to do.

[IrishWorker]

As someone who has been involved in trade unions for a long time now let me make this statement:


FUCK THE GARDAÍ

We are not here to discuss what class they fall into - they have no class.
The police force in Ireland - as in every country are there to protect the interests of the state against the lowers classes. The "interests" of this state are the wealthy and so the police are authorised to protect the bourgeois from any onslaught. What annoys me is that they actually have the Nerve to stand next to our firemen, teachers, council workers and nurse's and join the exploited.

Watch this video, It might bring back some memories.
w5pjFhQr9pI


Thats what your precious police force is there to do.
Have some Rep mo chara Go raibh maith agat

[pastradamus]

And when they leave their 'picket line' they'll go back to their day job of enforcing the capitalist law and generally swaggering around like arrogant thugs.

Indeed. They'll Wrap the starry plough around themselves one day and piss on it the next. A friend of mine spent 8 months in Prison for defending himself when they batton charged him at the "Shell to Sea" protests a while back, if they can unmercifully beat up unarmed Men and Women - without question, then it says more for them than I ever could. They're only looking out for their own narrow-minded interests, One must also keep in mind that this is THE BEST PAID POLICE FORCE IN THE EU. There are memeber of the Gardaí on better pay packets than Doctors.

[Hoggy_RS]

They are fucking scumbags. The amount of power they have is sickening. All they have to do is point a finger at a republican and they get 5 years for membership of an illegal organisation. As if the word of one of those corrupt bastards is evidence.

[cyu]

Group A is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do A'.
Group B is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do B'.
Group C is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do C'.
Group D is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do D'.
Group E is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do E'.

Would you look at that - it seems I'm the only person qualified to be part of the revolution. Oh woe is me, why are there no true revolutionaries left in the world?

[Pogue]

Group A is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do A'.
Group B is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do B'.
Group C is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do C'.
Group D is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do D'.
Group E is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do E'.

Would you look at that - it seems I'm the only person qualified to be part of the revolution. Oh woe is me, why are there no true revolutionaries left in the world?

I don't understand your point. I would have thought it was pretty obvious that police would be excluded. Will the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom be allowed to join the revolution?

[ls]

Group A is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do A'.
Group B is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do B'.
Group C is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do C'.
Group D is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do D'.
Group E is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do E'.

Would you look at that - it seems I'm the only person qualified to be part of the revolution. Oh woe is me, why are there no true revolutionaries left in the world?

cyu, simply supporting a reactionary part of the state apparatus is, by all anarchist traditions, not an anarchist principle. Anarchists would surely be the least likely to support police, viewing them with suspicion even if they striked alongside the proletariat in some way? I think stuff like this comes across as blatantly opportunistic in a detrimental way, I'm sorry to say it.

[Andropov]

Group A is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do A'.
Group B is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do B'.
Group C is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do C'.
Group D is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do D'.
Group E is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do E'.

Would you look at that - it seems I'm the only person qualified to be part of the revolution. Oh woe is me, why are there no true revolutionaries left in the world?
Ehhh Im going to go with a Nooo with that.

[cyu]

Will the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom be allowed to join the revolution?

Indeed he will - the question shouldn't be whether any person should be "allowed in society" or not. The question should be whether that person's current beliefs are valid or not. People change; their beliefs change. If the Prime Minister of the UK was converted to <your-favorite-ideology-here> would you still deny him a place in your society?

It's not like I'm saying you should let an alcoholic run your liquor store, but if he's a recovered alcoholic, why not?

[cyu]

Excerpts from http://www.marxist.com/ireland-gardai-ballot-for-strike-action.htm

The decision of the Garda Representative Association to ballot for strike action shows two things. In the first place it shows the scope of the opposition to the pay cuts outlined by Brian Lenihan in the budget released yesterday. On the other hand it shows the deep discontent that exists in Irish society.

In normal times … the Gards are the upholders of the law and the guardians of private property.

As part of the 24/7 Frontline Alliance the GRA has been actively campaigning against the cuts in their wages and allowances and many Gards marched in the big demonstration on November 6th. They weren’t allowed to march in uniform so instead they all turned up wearing the baseball caps. Many off duty Gards joined picket lines to try and convince any civilian staff not to cross picket lines.

The Gards have taken action before, they have all simultaneously developed symptoms of a mysterious “Blue Flu” virus that meant they were absent from work for the day.

The executive of the GRA have been warned that they might end up behind bars if they induce others to take strike action. However that does beg the question as to who might enforce that warrant and indeed who might arrest and charge the other 11,000 members of the GRA.

ICTU must support full trade union rights and immunity from prosecution for the Gardai and for the army for that matter.

If the government can’t even rely on the Gardai then who can they rely on? ...if the Gards are striking then that is just one less obstacle to driving Cowen, Lenihan and the so called “Soldiers of Destiny” out of office.

[Andropov]

I really fail to see the relevancy of your posts cyu.
Do you agree or disagree with my perspective on this because tbh from your posts all I can see is lukewarm sloganeering and very little Marxist perspective?

[Iskra1916]

fuck the gardai, reactionary bastards and deserving of nothing for their part in various anti-working class actions, same as the police anywhere.


Well said comrade !

I would class any strike by cops (or eg, screws) as reactionary strike action by ultra-reactionaries. There is absolutely no potential for a Larkin-like conversion of these scum for obvious reasons.In reality, because of their anti-workingclass role they could never even rise to the level of tades union consciousness.

Imho they deserve zero support from the Left.

[ZeroNowhere]

In reality, because of their anti-workingclass role they could never even rise to the level of tades union consciousness.
It is illegal for gardai(irish police) to go on strike in Ireland yet it looks like if it goes to the ballot strike action will be supported by the rank and file who have been pressuring the union leaders for action, union leaders under this pressure voted unanimosly for a ballot on strike action .
Hm.

[pastradamus]

Group A is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do A'.
Group B is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do B'.
Group C is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do C'.
Group D is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do D'.
Group E is not qualified to be part of the revolution because they do E'.

Would you look at that - it seems I'm the only person qualified to be part of the revolution. Oh woe is me, why are there no true revolutionaries left in the world?

Its all good and well to say that. If the police force were indeed supporters of Socialist ideals and working class solidarity than by all means we would support the notion, but that is simply not the case. History has show, time and time again that An Gardaí Siochána are staunch instruments of the bourgeois state who have and will Break up public meetings, protests and demonstrations to the favour of foreign multinationals (shell, swissco etc) and the bourgeois state. They are simply an apparatus arm of Militant Capitalism. If anyone here seen the sheer amount of police present at the recent PEACEFUL Thomas Cook protests in Dublin, than this will hammer home the idea of their real purpose.

[cyu]

I really fail to see the relevancy of your posts cyu
Do you agree or disagree with my perspective on this


I wasn't responding to you in particular. In fact, until you made that post, I wasn't even paying attention to which side you were on.

That second post was a news article about the event we're talking about, so I thought it would be obviously relevant to this thread.

[cyu]

If the police force were indeed supporters of Socialist ideals and working class solidarity than by all means we would support the notion, but that is simply not the case. History has show, time and time again that An Gardaí Siochána are staunch instruments of the bourgeois state


Feel free to see people as immutable if you want. If everyone were immutable, then revolutions can never happen.

Personally, I believe everyone can be converted - it doesn't mean we always have the means to do this, of course, since the mass media is owned and controlled by the wealthy.

However, if you believe that everyone can be converted, then there may also be some instances in which they are more likely to be converted than in other scenarios. In cases like a police strike, you know the police are going to be on the wrong end of the same oppressive forces usually used against leftists. If this isn't a great time to try to convert them, what is?

If a police strike or soldier strike isn't developing into a potential revolutionary situation, would you rather have another situation where they will be fighting you when you attempt revolution?

[Woyzeck]

Its all good and well to say that. If the police force were indeed supporters of Socialist ideals and working class solidarity than by all means we would support the notion, but that is simply not the case. History has show, time and time again that An Gardaí Siochána are staunch instruments of the bourgeois state who have and will Break up public meetings, protests and demonstrations to the favour of foreign multinationals (shell, swissco etc) and the bourgeois state. They are simply an apparatus arm of Militant Capitalism. If anyone here seen the sheer amount of police present at the recent PEACEFUL Thomas Cook protests in Dublin, than this will hammer home the idea of their real purpose.

No-one (I would hope) is disputing their role in society, but when they're out on strike or otherwise protesting they're not cracking skulls and breaking up picket lines etc. By taking such actions they're attaching themselves to the broader labour movement whether consciously or not. I don't, like some, believe the Gardaí or prison guards are "workers in uniform" nor do I believe the demographics of these forces are in anyway relevant (the backbone of every successful fascist movement has been drawn from the working class). The only reason this is worth supporting is because it undermines the state and compliments the demands of other sectors currently in conflict with said state.

[Woyzeck]

I wonder will any strike action; should the GRA decide to go down that path, involve all units of the Gardaí refusing to work on the same day. The faux-strike that was the "Blue Flu" in May 1998 didn't prevent them from stopping an attempted armed robbery in Wicklow and shooting dead Real IRA volunteer Rónán Mac Lochlainn at the scene.