Why do the youth in Athens hate the police? [Archive]

Spirit of Spartacus

7th December 2009, 21:38

This ridiculous liberal journalist cannot, for the life of him, understand why our Greek comrades are so full of "hate".

After all, in our wonderful world where pigs wear uniforms and teenagers are shot in cold blood, there's no reason for anger and hatred, right? :rolleyes:

In the midst of the swirling smoke and explosions of the Athens street battle, I saw a woman, her eyes bulging with hatred. She was probably in her mid-forties, dressed in black, with a ring through her nose. She was screaming abuse at the riot police, who had made some arrests, and were leading the suspects away.

"This is what you call democracy, you *******!"

I asked her if she wanted to tell Al Jazeera how she felt. She looked at me with disgust.

"You are a journalist!"

This was true, so I nodded.

"****ing media, full of lies, **** off!"

I backed away.

Just round the corner, a menacing group of youths approached us. Their faces were covered in masks, and they carried rocks and sticks.

"Stop filming", they ordered, "Or you and your equipment will be damaged. Get away from here."

We beat a retreat. They had taken over the elegant neo-classical building of Athens University, and were daubing the walls with graffiti. On the roof, their colleagues were busy lowering the blue and white Greek flag, and raising the black and red flag of Anarchy.

In my career as a reporter, I've met some seriously dangerous and unpleasant people. Ill-disciplined rebel armies in Sierra Leone and Liberia, religious militias in Nigeria. I've watched them, with my own eyes, commit gruesome killings, with impunity and apparently without remorse.

But, ironically, as a foreign reporter, I was treated warmly, even courteously, by those murderous gangs in Africa.

In contrast, the anarchist and extremist groups of Athens put on plenty of menacing airs, but, with a few exceptions, shy away from serious violence. And yet, in my capacity as a journalist, I have rarely felt myself the focus of such hatred and suspicion as I have here in Athens.

To these groups, I'm part of the despised "mainstream media", a hopeless dupe of capitalist interests.

There is one category of people the Athenian anarchists hold in even greater contempt - the police.

From my reporting in Greece, I'm well aware that there are problems with the Greek police-force. They are poorly paid, and badly trained. Morale is low. Inside police stations, they commit abuses, especially against the recently arrived immigrant communities from Asia and Africa.

Of course, last December, they shot dead 15 year old Alexis Grigoropolous, under circumstances which are still unclear.

During Sunday's protests, held to mark the first anniversary of Alexis' death, pictures broadcast on Greek television show police motorcyclists riding fast through the crowds and colliding with protestors.

It's not clear if this was a deliberate tactic or not. But one thing is for sure; it will enrage those groups who are already convinced the police can do no good. The battle for control of the Athenian streets - between the police and anarchists - ebbs and flows, and sometimes there are lulls - but it has become an enduring feature of life in this city.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/europe/2009/12/07/fear-and-loathing-streets-athens

This idiotic journalist needs to understand that this is only the beginning.

Pogue

7th December 2009, 21:39

He should be thankful the kids warned him.

the last donut of the night

7th December 2009, 21:51

How's the rebellion in Greece going? Do any comrades have info?

Delenda Carthago

8th December 2009, 00:12

To these groups, I'm part of the despised "mainstream media", a hopeless dupe of capitalist interests

Of course you are you fuckin ****.Capitalist journalists are the cops of mind.Here in Greece,last December there where an occupation to the building of the Journalists-reporters union.There,some leftists and anarchist reporters made a movement.Only they can show up between our lines.I wonder how the hell he got away...

Media's Fools,Goverment Tools.

blake 3:17

8th December 2009, 00:29

This idiotic journalist needs to understand that this is only the beginning.

So journalists are the main enemy?

The police, the state, the fascists, the bosses are the enemy, not some reporter from Al Jazeera who is ASKING A QUESTION. To treat journalists as simple functionaries of repression is stupid.

I understand that in particular tense, violent, and screwy situations people don't want to be filmed or reported on. Okay, but you think there aren't secret police there already?

Delenda Carthago

8th December 2009, 00:38

Media to my eyes is a greater enemy than fascists and cops.They promote the new age "democratic" authority and they are cops for the mind.Worst of it all,their role in society is not obvious like the previous two...

What Would Durruti Do?

8th December 2009, 00:55

So journalists are the main enemy?

The police, the state, the fascists, the bosses are the enemy, not some reporter from Al Jazeera who is ASKING A QUESTION. To treat journalists as simple functionaries of repression is stupid.

I understand that in particular tense, violent, and screwy situations people don't want to be filmed or reported on. Okay, but you think there aren't secret police there already?

The bourgeoisie media is an apparatus of the state and bosses. Therefore it's the enemy.

The Red Next Door

8th December 2009, 01:21

That question should of never been ask.

cyu

8th December 2009, 01:28

There are journalists that aren't afraid to lose their jobs / defy their bosses and there are "journalists" that write pieces like this, pretending everyone else is "crazy" or "insane" except for themselves. When they act as mouthpieces for those in power, is it no wonder they are despised when they pretend stuff like this (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/1449811.jpg) doesn't happen?

the last donut of the night

8th December 2009, 01:36

Also, does anybody have pictures of the riots? More specifically, the one which shows the red and black flag being draped over Athens University? I believe it's Ungovernable Farce's avatar.

8th December 2009, 02:11

So journalists are the main enemy?

No, but most journalists have dodgy class interests I am afraid. A lot of them work for state companies which ARE part of the state apparatus, they are meant to misrepresent and marginalise our movement in all countries.. granted there are some individual ones that are ok, just as there are some organisations which are a lot less worse than others, but mostly, this IS what we're up against.

The police, the state, the fascists, the bosses are the enemy, not some reporter from Al Jazeera who is ASKING A QUESTION. To treat journalists as simple functionaries of repression is stupid.

I think other Al-Jazeera journalists are generally less moronic than this one in question, at least my experience of what they tend to be like is a little better than this one, although there are some much worse ones in Al-Jazeera too (trust me, I've got personal experience on this ;) ).

I understand that in particular tense, violent, and screwy situations people don't want to be filmed or reported on. Okay, but you think there aren't secret police there already?

Yes, but they aren't going to think of everything are they? The media often marginalises the left, if they have had bad experiences before, why would they (metaphorically speaking) walk up for more punishment? Come on, you have to have solidarity with them in that respect, most people know what at least 3/4s of the media are like, even lesser biased organisations like Al-Jazeera WILL have biased journalists.

There are journalists that aren't afraid to lose their jobs / defy their bosses and there are "journalists" that write pieces like this, pretending everyone else is "crazy" or "insane" except for themselves. When they act as mouthpieces for those in power, is it no wonder they are despised when they pretend stuff like this (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/1449811.jpg) doesn't happen?

Word.

Die Rote Fahne

8th December 2009, 02:17

Uncle Ho

8th December 2009, 02:23

Pieces like these are the demonstrator's faults. They do not have a clearly articulated goal, and from the perspective of an outside observer, they seem to be doing little besides rioting.

If they would let the world know why and exactly what they hope to accomplish, and they would work towards it in a focused, sane manner, they would be having a lot more success.

8th December 2009, 02:26

Uncle Ho

8th December 2009, 02:32

No one is actually interested in what you write anymore, do you realise that?

And this is the reason why the Left is on it's deathbed.

We cannot hold anyone above criticism, most of all ourselves. We must keep our eyes wide open and not be afraid to challenge accepted norms, or we will go quoting Marx into our goodnight.

the last donut of the night

8th December 2009, 02:44

And this is the reason why the Left is on it's deathbed.

We cannot hold anyone above criticism, most of all ourselves. We must keep our eyes wide open and not be afraid to challenge accepted norms, or we will go quoting Marx into our goodnight.

When there's no violence, you complain that protesters are just imbecile, docile creatures.

When there is, you complain that it's only disorganized lifestyles who are fighting.

I suggest you get your shit together and see what's really going on. These students, and workers, are braving brutal police attacks and are going with enthusiasm and stride. Hell, they just ripped off the flag on a national educational institution and replaced it with ours.

If that isn't a call to revolution, I don't know what it is.

Uncle Ho

8th December 2009, 02:59

When there's no violence, you complain that protesters are just imbecile, docile creatures.

When there is, you complain that it's only disorganized lifestyles who are fighting.

There's a difference between fighting for a cause and fighting for no reason.

Look at, for example, the EZLN. Their goals were clearly and articulately stated from the very beginning, and their actions all moved towards those goals. They let reporters in and they talked to them clearly and politely, making sure they were informed as to their aims. Because of this, they have wide support.

I suggest you get your shit together and see what's really going on. These students, and workers, are braving brutal police attacks and are going with enthusiasm and stride. Hell, they just ripped off the flag on a national educational institution and replaced it with ours.

Great, people are fighting cops. Gangsters fight cops all the time, should we applaud them for it?

Motive matters. It matters as much as action.

By the way, I have no flag, least of all an anarchist flag.

If that isn't a call to revolution, I don't know what it is.

A revolution against what? How will we fight it? What do we hope to accomplish?

It is quite rude for someone to call me and not even explain why they've called.

the last donut of the night

8th December 2009, 03:23

There's a difference between fighting for a cause and fighting for no reason.

Are you suggesting the Greeks are rebelling for no reason?

They are protesting the death of a youth in the hands of a repressive state and class which has only worsened their lives. Is this not commendable?

Let me remind you that this whole event is not some kind of college kid get-together, as you seem to think.

Look at, for example, the EZLN. Their goals were clearly and articulately stated from the very beginning, and their actions all moved towards those goals. They let reporters in and they talked to them clearly and politely, making sure they were informed as to their aims. Because of this, they have wide support.

And you think the Mexican or the international bourgeoisie likes them more because of that?

Great, people are fighting cops. Gangsters fight cops all the time, should we applaud them for it?

Now they're gangsters?

By the way, I have no flag, least of all an anarchist flag.

Aside from all the theoretical stuff, an anarchist flag is much better than a capitalist one, don't you think?

A revolution against what? How will we fight it? What do we hope to accomplish?

A revolution against capitalism, settling for nothing else. You should kinda know this by now.

Uncle Ho

8th December 2009, 03:45

Are you suggesting the Greeks are rebelling for no reason?

They are protesting the death of a youth in the hands of a repressive state and class which has only worsened their lives. Is this not commendable?

Let me remind you that this whole event is not some kind of college kid get-together, as you seem to think.

And what do they intend to do about it? Hit cops and burn things?

That's not going to help, I'm afraid. The smart fighter picks his blows carefully. He does not just flail his arms about looking for a chance knockout.

And you think the Mexican or the international bourgeoisie likes them more because of that?I think the contempt of the bourgeoisie was one of their goals.

The people support them, and that is what they need. That is why they have been successful.

The reason the people support them is because they have a clear goal and they have not strayed from it. Everything they have ever done has led to this goal, and now that they have attained it, they are working towards others.

Now they're gangsters?I never said they were. I said that gangsters fight cops all the time, and they do not receive our praise for doing so.

Aside from all the theoretical stuff, an anarchist flag is much better than a capitalist one, don't you think?Not in my mind, no. Anarchist doctrine is complete fantasy that would serve only as a transitional state to feudalism.

A revolution against capitalism, settling for nothing else. You should kinda know this by now.If it's a revolution against Capitalism, it's not a very good one. Torching some police motorcycles and breaking windows is hardly going to topple the Capitalist regime.

How does rioting because of a youth's shooting constitute a grand revolution against Capitalism, anyway? I think you're just assuming things because you are also confused as to the goals of these protests.

8th December 2009, 04:15

There's a difference between fighting for a cause and fighting for no reason.

Look at, for example, the EZLN. Their goals were clearly and articulately stated from the very beginning, and their actions all moved towards those goals. They let reporters in and they talked to them clearly and politely, making sure they were informed as to their aims. Because of this, they have wide support.

While I don't want to seem like I'm attacking the Zapatistas, you will notice they are pretty stuck at the moment and not doing particularly well.

blake 3:17

8th December 2009, 04:30

Biased? Yes. Who isn't?

No, but most journalists have dodgy class interests I am afraid. A lot of them work for state companies which ARE part of the state apparatus, they are meant to misrepresent and marginalise our movement in all countries.. granted there are some individual ones that are ok, just as there are some organisations which are a lot less worse than others, but mostly, this IS what we're up against.

Class interests, sure? They form a strange class formation between workers, intellectuals, and petty bourgeois information managers.

The main problem for the Left in mainstream media is that our stories are waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy 22222222222222222222222222222222222 too too compicated -- this happened, but you have to understand, blah blah, the whole history of something and if you diagree youre a scumbag and don't bother me, and we already sent the manifesto or something.

If you're going to be involved in radical politics, you have to be ready to defend yourself. If you've got 10 seconds make the point in 8. If you've got 2 minutes do it 90 or a 100 seconds and restate the most important part.

The main crisis of alternative/Left/progressive media is that we do not have the skills, time, and money to do proper empirical journalism. You want opinion? Sure, it's coming out my where ever. You want research, interviews, fact checking, proper editing, reliability? Takes time and money.

Uncle Ho

8th December 2009, 04:32

While I don't want to seem like I'm attacking the Zapatistas, you will notice they are pretty stuck at the moment and not doing particularly well.

They accomplished their initial goal of political autonomy and now they are working on building their community.

These things take time. As long as they retain their autonomous state, they will eventually build themselves up.

CommunistWaffle

8th December 2009, 04:35

Lots of shops being looted in greece and cars burned

8th December 2009, 04:36

They accomplished their initial goal of political autonomy and now they are working on building their community.

These things take time. As long as they retain their autonomous state, they will eventually build themselves up.

..And there is no guarantee that they will, in fact it's looking gloomier as time goes on, the Mexican state is beginning to get very serious abou tthem.

blake 3:17

8th December 2009, 04:37

Look at, for example, the EZLN. Their goals were clearly and articulately stated from the very beginning, and their actions all moved towards those goals. They let reporters in and they talked to them clearly and politely, making sure they were informed as to their aims. Because of this, they have wide support.

They had wide support because they built themselves responding to regional
community interests over 15 years, linking issues between peasants and urban workers and carried out military operations beating the Mexican state.

And it was fuck you to NAFTA which was aimed against workers in Mexico, the US and Canada.

Apologies for thread drift... Let's back to Greece.

Uncle Ho

8th December 2009, 05:06

..And there is no guarantee that they will, in fact it's looking gloomier as time goes on, the Mexican state is beginning to get very serious abou tthem.

There's never a guarantee, but where you have people willing to fight (Which the Zapatistas have proven that they do) you always have a chance.

They had wide support because they built themselves responding to regional
community interests over 15 years, linking issues between peasants and urban workers and carried out military operations beating the Mexican state.

And it was fuck you to NAFTA which was aimed against workers in Mexico, the US and Canada.

Apologies for thread drift... Let's back to Greece.

And they did this by forming a movement with a clear goal, then acting towards it in a focused manner.

By the way, their military operations weren't terribly successful, but they had enough support that it didn't matter.

RHIZOMES

8th December 2009, 05:16

How's the rebellion in Greece going? Do any comrades have info?

This is something interesting I saw on a Greek-New Zealander WPNZ comrades facebook.

X: squeekles!!!!

rioting anarchists join PAO fans in fights outside the stadium, aparently Athens hit it off again due to the ALEXIS tragedy!!!!!

Y:
I never thought i would see the day when anarchists and soccer players would join forces. But wow.
Y:
CAn you send me the link? I want to see this happen.

X:
they took the Greek flag down from the uni and put up the Anarchy flag, it might make the news here you never know

Thought that might be of interest to comrades

Invincible Summer

8th December 2009, 06:05

From my reporting in Greece, I'm well aware that there are problems with the Greek police-force. They are poorly paid, and badly trained. Morale is low. Inside police stations, they commit abuses, especially against the recently arrived immigrant communities from Asia and Africa.

Right... cuz you know how all the other police forces are glorious beacons of humanity...

RaÃºl Duke

8th December 2009, 07:25

I plan to be a journalist, but I don't think (nor is it my first choice) I'll get hired by some mainstream media like CNN or whatever.

Previously, I was dissuaded to being a journalist because I thought that all of journalism was just "mainstream media" so I would be just wasting time...although now I see there are other forms of media (and some do provide jobs with some sort of salary; I plan to get into alternative weeklies like the kind that is Miami New Times, Village Voice, etc or magazines like the New Internationalist or the website "Real News") that I could get into plus still freelance for free for the free independent media (indymedia) and perhaps even make video reports and post them on current.com (and if i'm lucky and lots of people vote it up at the site it can even show up on their channel, plus they give you some bit of money).

Emre

8th December 2009, 08:37

'rebellion', 'uprising', 'riot porn'.

Anarchists. :unsure:

8th December 2009, 09:55

Class interests, sure? They form a strange class formation between workers, intellectuals, and petty bourgeois information managers.

Nono, although there is that too, but I mean that they WORK for most mainstream media outlets under the heavy supervision, or should I say in many cases, at the complete behest of their managers.

People who speak out in the state-controlled media simply get suppressed, look at Greg Dyke the manager of the BBC when he got kicked out by Blair for speaking out against the Iraq war. If a BBC journo did that in an outright manner, he'd simply be out.

That may not be true for those from the tabloids, whose motives are pretty different. They still, would never get away with criticising troops though, they would be out in a second if they dared do that.

The main problem for the Left in mainstream media is that our stories are waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy 22222222222222222222222222222222222 too too compicated -- this happened, but you have to understand, blah blah, the whole history of something and if you diagree youre a scumbag and don't bother me, and we already sent the manifesto or something.

Yeah, the problem with what you're saying is that it's been done before, class war federation tried to lay things out in a patronising sociological "working-class" way a lot like the tabloids do with their press.

They utterly failed really, but to an extent you are right that too much overintellectualising will drive people away, a balance must be struck.

The main crisis of alternative/Left/progressive media is that we do not have the skills, time, and money to do proper empirical journalism. You want opinion? Sure, it's coming out my where ever. You want research, interviews, fact checking, proper editing, reliability? Takes time and money.

The mainstream Capitalist media doesn't invest too much into this either, only occasionally do they produce high-quality unbiased material, especially the directly state-run media.

There's never a guarantee, but where you have people willing to fight (Which the Zapatistas have proven that they do) you always have a chance.

No, but this is quite different to what I'm saying, the Zapatistas obviously have a strong base there, but that isn't enough it hasn't spread - it isn't spreading, it's not going to spread from what we can see. That is the spelling of death for any movement..

And they did this by forming a movement with a clear goal, then acting towards it in a focused manner.

They utilised a number of reactionary tactics in doing so, nonetheless I think it's indicative that the struggle hasn't spread.

By the way, their military operations weren't terribly successful, but they had enough support that it didn't matter.

And when the Mexican state strikes back, it may be impossible to defend themselves.

Leo

8th December 2009, 12:13

Here's the accounts of the 6th and 7th of December, 2009 in Greece:

http://libcom.org/news/riots-police-brutality-first-day-alexandros-grigoropoulos-murder-anniversary-06122009

http://libcom.org/news/second-day-clashes-greece-anniversary-alexandros-grigoropoulos-murder-07122009

Delenda Carthago

8th December 2009, 18:51

'rebellion', 'uprising', 'riot porn'.

Anarchists. :unsure:

Now that I joined this forum,I am starting to see things a bit more global.

And because of this I m becoming bit by bit fan of Nechaevs idea,"Death to the enemies of revolution"...

Dude,outdo us-or even the 1/10 of what we do,and then start your critics.Saying that our struggle is pointless or whatever because we are anarchists,makes you join my "enemies of revolution" list...

cyu

8th December 2009, 19:25

More specifically, the one which shows the red and black flag being draped over Athens University?

This one?

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/A-black-and-red-flag-is-p-013.jpg

FSL

8th December 2009, 19:33

Now that I joined this forum,I am starting to see things a bit more global.

And because of this I m becoming bit by bit fan of Nechaevs idea,"Death to the enemies of revolution"...

Dude,outdo us-or even the 1/10 of what we do,and then start your critics.Saying that our struggle is pointless or whatever because we are anarchists,makes you join my "enemies of revolution" list...

What are you doing?

An archist

8th December 2009, 20:13

What are you doing?
What are you doing?

FSL

8th December 2009, 20:56

What are you doing?

7-hour work day in many unions we control and a much higher wage increase than achieved by GSEE (the national workers' union). This at a time when many people would beg to find a part-time job with no medical insurance or pension rights.

Everyday paper showing what no private media does: the strikes, the lay offs, the arrests.Translating and publishing theoretical works or even naturalist literature and such. Debating and developing our analysis. Opposing petty-bourgeois deviations in the working class movement that aim in a nicer capitalism and in class collaboration (or refuse to have any aims). Being unapologetically in favour of a workers' state without "adapting to today's reality".

Right now there are daily visits in a ton of businesses to build support for a national strike on 17th. As well as a number of lawsuits from owners against members and supporters for past and present actions.

How is that even comparable to breaking windows in the minds of some self-preclaimed working class activists is beyond my mind's reach. I mean, the volume or the successes of our actions should be bigger and more, but the direction can only be correct, no?

Delenda Carthago

8th December 2009, 23:29

7-hour work day in many unions we control and a much higher wage increase than achieved by GSEE (the national workers' union). This at a time when many people would beg to find a part-time job with no medical insurance or pension rights.

Everyday paper showing what no private media does: the strikes, the lay offs, the arrests.Translating and publishing theoretical works or even naturalist literature and such. Debating and developing our analysis. Opposing petty-bourgeois deviations in the working class movement that aim in a nicer capitalism and in class collaboration (or refuse to have any aims). Being unapologetically in favour of a workers' state without "adapting to today's reality".

Right now there are daily visits in a ton of businesses to build support for a national strike on 17th. As well as a number of lawsuits from owners against members and supporters for past and present actions.

How is that even comparable to breaking windows in the minds of some self-preclaimed working class activists is beyond my mind's reach. I mean, the volume or the successes of our actions should be bigger and more, but the direction can only be correct, no?
If you weren't a goebelisc pig,you wouldn't be KKE...

Let me tell you what we do,if you act like you don't know...

We have 3 monthly newspapers and about 10 radio stations Greecewide

We have about 25 haunts,10 squats and tens of local teams and all of them are in touch with the local society,being there for all the local and nationwide issues.

We translate ten times the stuff you do.

We have formed and organise antifa militias nationwide,and while you got kicked out St.Panteleimon from the fascists,we dont let them take a step.

We have started many unions in many jobs that there wheren't any unions before,like delivery,serving and cooks etc.

We have a DIY music scene that is very succesful,some of our bands have the same reputation with mainstream artists.

In the last 1.5 years we made 4 parks in Athens,3 of them we had to fight the state to do it.

We have one of the most known internet sites in Greece,athens.indymedia.org

We have hundreds of blogs and vlogs that produce theory,inform,translate.

We are in every social movement for the last 20 years.Rebel without a pause.

We where the only ones that stood up against the olympic games and protested those days.

Anyway I got bored to continue.You got a picture.And so everyone else...

POST EDITED: FOR YOUR SAFETY AND THE SAFETY OF OTHERS, PLEASE DON'T POST INFORMATION ABOUT YOURSELF OR OTHERS PERFORMING ILLEGAL ACTS. - PLAGUEROUND

bcbm

9th December 2009, 00:42

what's your strategy for moving from riots to insurrection and actually dismantling capitalism?

the last donut of the night

9th December 2009, 00:56

what's your strategy for moving from riots to insurrection and actually dismantling capitalism?

Yes. More importantly, are workers actively involved in these riots, or is it just students?

FSL

9th December 2009, 07:06

Anyway I got bored to continue.You got a picture.And so everyone else...

My point exactly. For example, last night 8 cars got burnt. Go class struggle.

And I'm sure many people did "get the picture". Showing the sad, sad state of the left, not how awesome you are when you play hide-and-seek with cops.

Emre

9th December 2009, 16:24

Dude,outdo us-or even the 1/10 of what we do
Im not a vegan, sorry.

But you want to know what 'we do', look up Evrensel newspaper and Hayat TV.

9th December 2009, 19:06

Im not a vegan, sorry.

But you want to know what 'we do', look up Evrensel newspaper and Hayat TV.

Ah hayat, the non-free cable variety, Turkish TV channel that no one watches. :rolleyes: That's not a good thing you know?

Why don't your rich, utterly bourgeois leaders buy up and get a resort as well, a socialist themed luxury resort, would be a big hit with the kids.

Delenda Carthago

9th December 2009, 21:19

Im not a vegan, sorry.

But you want to know what 'we do', look up Evrensel newspaper and Hayat TV.

I am sorry.I did not see that you are from Turkey.I thought you where just an internet geek from Europe or US.Even though you are a piece of shit,your struggle over there is respected and you have my solidarity.
I know its really hard over there being a communist/anarchist.Resistanbul!

Delenda Carthago

9th December 2009, 21:27

If you weren't a goebelisc pig,you wouldn't be KKE...

Let me tell you what we do,if you act like you don't know...

We have 3 monthly newspapers and about 10 radio stations Greecewide

We have about 25 haunts,10 squats and tens of local teams and all of them are in touch with the local society,being there for all the local and nationwide issues.

We translate ten times the stuff you do.

We have formed and organise antifa militias nationwide,and while you got kicked out St.Panteleimon from the fascists,we dont let them take a step.

We have started many unions in many jobs that there wheren't any unions before,like delivery,serving and cooks etc.

We have a DIY music scene that is very succesful,some of our bands have the same reputation with mainstream artists.

In the last 1.5 years we made 4 parks in Athens,3 of them we had to fight the state to do it.

We have one of the most known internet sites in Greece,athens.indymedia.org

We have hundreds of blogs and vlogs that produce theory,inform,translate.

We are in every social movement for the last 20 years.Rebel without a pause.

We where the only ones that stood up against the olympic games and protested those days.

Anyway I got bored to continue.You got a picture.And so everyone else...

POST EDITED: FOR YOUR SAFETY AND THE SAFETY OF OTHERS, PLEASE DON'T POST INFORMATION ABOUT YOURSELF OR OTHERS PERFORMING ILLEGAL ACTS. - PLAGUEROUND

Is it about the site's security?

Delenda Carthago

9th December 2009, 21:31

Yes. More importantly, are workers actively involved in these riots, or is it just students?

Both of you,from all the things I just said,all you have to ask is THIS???

...

What Would Durruti Do?

10th December 2009, 00:48

what's your strategy for moving from riots to insurrection and actually dismantling capitalism?

What do the two have to do with each other?

Riots and protests are not revolutions. They are, however, a huge sign of power and there probably isn't a single capitalist in Greece that didn't almost piss their pants this weekend.

The more this topic is discussed, the more I get the impression some people are just jealous that there isn't anyone in Greece to raise the red flag over Athen University instead. Maybe all 3 of the reds in Greece will get together and have a tea party with the police before they do that. :rolleyes:

cyu

10th December 2009, 01:22

Excerpt from http://libcom.org/news/marches-against-repression-greece-08122009

In a hideous gesture of propaganda, the attacker of Ms Koutsoumbou - the elderly woman who was hit by a delta-team motobiker who then proceeded to beat her up causing brain injuries and internal bleeding - visited her at hospital claiming that it was all an accident... not only the policeman targeted and then hit the veteran anti-junta struggler, but after dismounting and beating her on the head with a glob, he also attacked a doctor who tried to give first aid to the woman.

bcbm

10th December 2009, 02:09

What do the two have to do with each other?

Riots and protests are not revolutions. They are, however, a huge sign of power and there probably isn't a single capitalist in Greece that didn't almost piss their pants this weekend.

obviously riots are a sign of power, but without the ability to move from riots to actually occupying territory, defending it and expanding the ability to challenge the state, that is to say insurrection, i don't think they're going to make many capitalists piss themselves.

so what do the two have to do with each other? everything.

we live in a perpetual crisis and as such the state regards our challenges as an act of war. this is plainly obvious across the globe, with anti-terrorism, pacification and anti-insurgency strategies now the standard form of police operation. it is within this context we must view our challenges as well, and this means pursuing a strategy. if a riot can be viewed as taking an offensive, then we need to be able to maintain and expand the offensive. it's no longer enough to simply lash out blindly.

There is no longer time to foresee the collapses or to demonstrate the joyous possibilities in them. Whether they come sooner or later, one must prepare oneself for them. One need not make a schema for what an insurrection must be, but restore the possibility of upheaval to what it has never ceased to be: a vital impulse of the young as much as working class [populaire] wisdom. On the condition that one knows how to move within upheavals, the absence of a schema is not an obstacle, but an opportunity. For the insurgents, it is the only space that can guarantee the essential for them: keeping the initiative. It remains to build -- to maintain as one maintains a fire -- a certain posture [regard], a certain tactical fever that, when the moment comes, even now, reveals itself to be determinant and a constant source of determination. Already certain questions arise, questions that even yesterday could appear to be grotesque or out of date. It remains to seize them, not so as to respond to them definitively, but to make them live. To have posed them again is not the least merit of the Greek upheaval.

How does a situation of generalized rioting become an insurrectional situation? What to do, once the street is established, since the police have been durably defeated there? Do the parliaments still merit being taken by force? What does deposing power locally mean in practice? How does one decide? How to subsist? How to find one another?

FSL

10th December 2009, 06:51

What do the two have to do with each other?

Riots and protests are not revolutions. They are, however, a huge sign of power and there probably isn't a single capitalist in Greece that didn't almost piss their pants this weekend.

The more this topic is discussed, the more I get the impression some people are just jealous that there isn't anyone in Greece to raise the red flag over Athen University instead. Maybe all 3 of the reds in Greece will get together and have a tea party with the police before they do that. :rolleyes:

The 3 reds of Greece during a tea party. Idiot.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1064/getimageha.jpg

The more this topic is discussed, the more I realize how the spirit of Kronstadt lives on. Workers will end with stupidity and do so in the most emphatic manner.

Uncle Ho

10th December 2009, 15:55

Patchd

10th December 2009, 16:06

Actually, fuck the two of you, I was going to refrain from posting but all your posts contain are little strawman hits, "They're far too busy spray painting little As on things to be bothered with the liberation of the Proletariat", as a matter of fact, the youth are rioting and occupying schools and universities, basically the social power youth have, workers on the other hand have also showed messages of solidarity and have participated in actions as well, in addition to this, Anarchist groups have been working with worker organisations in this period as they always do, simply because the riots are what is caught on the news more often than not, doesn't mean that all other work is exempt from the Greek anarchists' vision of class struggle.

Uncle Ho

10th December 2009, 16:19

Yes, the youth are rioting and occupying schools and universities with no cohesive political goal or community outreach.

Also, the worker's movements aren't linked in any way to the Anarchists, which is a failing on their part to reach out to the working class. Perhaps if they'd spend less time occupying universities and more time occupying closing factories, public housing and protecting the working class from the rushing tide of corporate greed, they'd have more success.

Of course, that would involve having a clear and organized movement, which hangs out with those filthy Proles. That would fly in the face of their riots, however, which were started because a kid from the wealthiest area of all Greece who was a student at one of the most expensive private schools in the country was shot while pretending to be working class.

Patchd

10th December 2009, 16:47

Andropov

10th December 2009, 17:32

I genuinly still dont know what these riots are achieving.
Is there a plan on how to harness this hatred for the state before action peeters out like they did the last time?

cyu

10th December 2009, 18:46

Urgent Commique From Athens Anarchists 9-12-2009

Excerpts from http://www.ainfos.ca/en/ainfos23394.html

RECENT DAYS HAVE SEEN INCREDIBLE JUNTA ORGIES IN GREECE

wild and indiscriminate arrests

Staged events such as the alleged assassination attempt against the rector of the Pritanea

An enormous number of vague and even criminal charges and arresting people young and old

Closing schools on the pretext of swine flu and the merciless beating of students who wanted to get to their schools

Undercover cops kidnapping young protesters

Higher level visible collaboration between Golden Dawn neo-nazis and the Police

Secret meetings between Chrysohoides and the bosses of the TV channels and journalists to decide on how TV reporting was going to be done over these days

BAN on demonstrations and political gatherings in the conversion areas with massive police intimidation

Hacker attacks on indymedia

Invasion and PREVENTIVE ARRESTS in many self-managed spaces

In an Orwellian way anarchists and the rebels are referred to "fascists and Nazis!".

Junta-like removal of asylum [in the universities]

They never ever happened altogether in such a short space of time!

You hear of missing people. The climate is heavy like unde the junta.

THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO BE SILENT!

THE REGIME IS GOING THE WAY OF 1967!

Emre

10th December 2009, 19:16

Ah hayat, the non-free cable variety, Turkish TV channel that no one watches. :rolleyes: That's not a good thing you know?

Why don't your rich, utterly bourgeois leaders buy up and get a resort as well, a socialist themed luxury resort, would be a big hit with the kids.
If Hayat TV is somehow irrelevent then why was it shut down by the regulator one year ago? There is no 'non-free cable' in Turkey either, but if you got off your first world high horse you'd see that most people have satalites here.

Yes, Hayat TV and Evrensel is a bit amateur at times. I can only hope some day they are as good as and read / watched by as many people as your tendency in Turkey reaches daily.

Yes, our utterly rich bourgeois leaders. Like Deniz, Yusuf and Huseyin, murdered by the Turkish state. :rolleyes:

Uncle Ho

10th December 2009, 19:16

On the contrary, there have been clear political goals from the university occupations as well as the school occupations, even if some may have been done with liberal inclinations, it is still essentially a protest against the state and failing education and economic conditions, which can be seen from their statements, slogans and banners they have hung. In Greece, the students' movement has traditionally been revolutionary and struggled alongside workers, even in the 70s to help overthrow the fascist government.

The political goals are so clear that no one can understand what they hope to accomplish.

In other words, they're about as clear as mud.

All their statements and banners are just about fighting or getting revenge for their slain bourgeois brother. There is no declaration of goals, and the actions are just garden variety rioting, which won't accomplish anything.

The workers' movement in Greece is still like that in many other nations, linked to the trade union movement, but unless I am mistaken, from hearing about actions in Greece from some anarchist friends there, namely in the town of Yanina (spelling?), they have been working with workers, meeting with them and planning protests and actions with them. What you fail to realise is the extent to which this has spread among the youth as well, even without figures, statistically, you can't expect the majority of those schools that have been occupied which number in the hundreds, to be 'middle class', or the polytechnics and universities. This is the working class youth's reaction to state repression and economic hardship, same as it is for the unemployed and many of the dispossessed, rioting. They have targets, and there have been coordinated targets against forces of the state.

Well, that's nice, a token anarchist group holds a few token meetings with workers, while the movement in general flails about burning things and smashing windows. They need leadership and clear goals, but if they had those, they wouldn't be anarchists.

Also, what targets, exactly, have been struck and how will this help the movement accomplish their goals? What are these goals, anyway?

Irish commie

10th December 2009, 20:53

'rebellion', 'uprising', 'riot porn'.

Anarchists. :unsure:

So its alright for stalin to do kill his opponents but anarchist workers arent allowed to roit and protest against an opressive capitalist regime.

GO ON THE ANARCHISTS IN GREECE!!

NecroCommie

10th December 2009, 22:15

Regardless the actions that should be taken, or actions that the greeks have already taken, I find the topic quite daft. Why do people hate the police? Gee, that's a tough one... Perhaps because they live on subjucating citizens and sometimes even enjoy it? Just a hunch!

the last donut of the night

11th December 2009, 02:34

This, like almost every single thread on Revleft, has become a slugfest between so-called stalinists and well, the rest of us.

Can some of you not recognize the awesome events unfolding underneath our noses? I would give an arm and a leg to get a tenth of that kind of rebellion here in the USA. Students and workers are rightly protesting the death of a comrade, brutally slain in the hands of the police; they are going out in the streets, occupying various educational institutions. As various comrades have pointed out, the struggle is now being followed by more workers. However, we see that numerous members have denounced these demonstrations as juvenile, irresponsible, and most disgustingly of all, lifestylist, mainly out of a complete sectarian attitude.

Do many of these comrades live in the US and Britain, where class-consciousness is almost nonexistent? Yes, they do.

I am just wondering, in that case, why must they attack any popular movement with contempt and hatred and disregard because they belong to some other sect which nobody really cares for.

That, my friends, is called alliances to the bourgeoisie and nothing else. It's just veiled in socialist rhetoric, but like the KKE, these members won't do shit when the time comes for popular revolt. This ruined the Russian Revolution, it ruined the German Revolution and it ruined the Spanish Revolution. Let us be aware of the decaying ideology known as stalinism, so it doesn't ally with the capitalists and destroy this movement.

IllicitPopsicle

11th December 2009, 02:47

Emre

11th December 2009, 05:49

So its alright for stalin to do kill his opponents but anarchist workers arent allowed to roit and protest against an opressive capitalist regime.

GO ON THE ANARCHISTS IN GREECE!!But I note when there are riots with an actual cause, such as in Turkey or in Ireland, I have saw people on this forum condemn them as divisive, sectarian, etc. :rolleyes:

REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL

11th December 2009, 10:26

Would these fucking idiots just accept that the anarchists in Greece have done more for the working class than gulags and invading Hungary ever did?

Yeah, I went there.

the last donut of the night

11th December 2009, 10:45

But I note when there are riots with an actual cause, such as in Turkey or in Ireland, I have saw people on this forum condemn them as divisive, sectarian, etc. :rolleyes:

http://hornbillunleashed.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/bullshit.jpg

The bullshit award goes to you! :rolleyes:

You know what you said isn't true, and if somebody did, then they're also in the bullshit ceremonies along with you.

Wanted Man

11th December 2009, 10:59

Can some of you not recognize the awesome events unfolding underneath our noses? I would give an arm and a leg to get a tenth of that kind of rebellion here in the USA. Students and workers are rightly protesting the death of a comrade, brutally slain in the hands of the police; they are going out in the streets, occupying various educational institutions. As various comrades have pointed out, the struggle is now being followed by more workers. However, we see that numerous members have denounced these demonstrations as juvenile, irresponsible, and most disgustingly of all, lifestylist, mainly out of a complete sectarian attitude.

Who is denouncing demonstrations, strikes, occupations, etc.? Nobody here, and not the communists in Greece either. But they don't support mindlessly smashing windows, either. The riots last year were larger and much more explosive, yet the whole "revolt" still petered out within a month because it lacked any meaningful direction (especially when you consider that whole pesky "class" thing). The riots this year seem less impressive, so what "awesome events" are you expecting this time? Yet the communists are the bad guys for wanting to build a working class movement that can wage class struggle.

Whatever. When in doubt, post pictures of cows on toilets.

Emre

11th December 2009, 11:36

The bullshit award goes to you! :rolleyes:

You know what you said isn't true, and if somebody did, then they're also in the bullshit ceremonies along with you.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/fighting-n-belfast-t112895/index.html?t=112895&highlight=ardoyne+riot

kthx

Black Sheep

11th December 2009, 12:13

Kid got shot for no reason.

Justice was not served.

Anarchists and others got pissed. SO, they do what they can. Rebel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRE-DmmK544
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRE-DmmK544)
Well not exactly,the trial of the Murderer is planned, after postponing it In Edessa at 15/12.
Funny thing is, that it got moved out of Athens to avoid unrest.So the poor parents have to go to Edessa.
Feel the logic and the priorities...

Wanted Man

11th December 2009, 12:16

Well not exactly,the trial of the Murderer is planned, after postponing it In Edessa at 15/12.
Funny thing is, that it got moved out of Athens to avoid unrest.So the poor parents have to go to Edessa.
Feel the logic and the priorities...

That's pretty sick. :mad:

So what are the expectations of the trial of Korkoneas? Are they still using the UFO defence?

http://bristle.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/blogalexiskiller.jpg

Patchd

11th December 2009, 18:35

That's pretty sick. :mad:

So what are the expectations of the trial of Korkoneas? Are they still using the UFO defence?

http://bristle.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/blogalexiskiller.jpg
What?! The UFO defence? Please, this cannot be serious.

Wanted Man

12th December 2009, 07:41

At the time of the shooting, the defendants argued that the cop must have fired into the air, and that the bullet must have ricocheted towards the boy's body. But of course, there wasn't anything above, so this was referred to as the UFO defence. I think reports later confirmed that the bullet did hit something else, but the cop did fire into the crowd.

The defence lawyer (some well-known right-winger, I believe) also repeatedly provoked the family and public by saying that the boy was a spoiled rich kid misbehaving, that his death was an "act of God", and that the court "must determine whether his death was just".

See: http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2009/05/24/55-1907-alexis-murderer-asks-for-bail/

FSL

12th December 2009, 08:10

What Would Durruti Do?

12th December 2009, 18:59

The 3 reds of Greece during a tea party. Idiot.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1064/getimageha.jpg

The more this topic is discussed, the more I realize how the spirit of Kronstadt lives on. Workers will end with stupidity and do so in the most emphatic manner.

What's that? They're just standing there? Where are their guns? Where are the dead capitalists?

You reds should really make your purposes and goals more clear for the bourgeois media. What were you hoping to accomplish with this mobilization?

:rolleyes:

As much fun as your tea party looks, it does not compare to the much more influential anarchist movement in Greece. So keep whining about it and worshiping your nutjob Soviet demigods who have no modern relevancy besides their infamous ability of oppressing the working class.

Andropov

12th December 2009, 19:55

What's that? They're just standing there? Where are their guns? Where are the dead capitalists?

You reds should really make your purposes and goals more clear for the bourgeois media. What were you hoping to accomplish with this mobilization?

:rolleyes:

As much fun as your tea party looks, it does not compare to the much more influential anarchist movement in Greece. So keep whining about it and worshiping your nutjob Soviet demigods who have no modern relevancy besides their infamous ability of oppressing the working class.
Ohh now I understand...
No smashed windows = failure.

FSL

12th December 2009, 23:44

What's that? They're just standing there? Where are their guns? Where are the dead capitalists?

Well, for the revolution we'll need a few more millions with us. Since, you know, the party's job as a vanguard is to educate and bring the masses forward, not replace them.

Unless we 're talking about an anarchist vanguard, in which case 500 people are enough.

Uncle Ho

13th December 2009, 01:01

Well, for the revolution we'll need a few more millions with us. Since, you know, the party's job as a vanguard is to educate and bring the masses forward, not replace them.

Unless we 're talking about an anarchist vanguard, in which case 500 people are enough.

The Anarchist vanguard is very important. Without it, how could the proles strike out at the windows?

Everyone knows that windows are the greatest enemy of the working class, closely followed by cars.

Thank god the death of a bourgeoisie kid has shown us who the real enemies are.

Honggweilo

13th December 2009, 03:29

SubcomandanteHelix[/B]]
As much fun as your tea party looks, it does not compare to the much more influential anarchist movement in Greece. So keep whining about it and worshiping your nutjob Soviet demigods who have no modern relevancy besides their infamous ability of oppressing the working class.riiiiiiiiight :rolleyes:, just keep smoking whatever it is you're smoking then and stop making absurd assumptions about the greek situation where you apperently dont know jack shit about.

Thank god the death of a bourgeoisie kid has shown us who the real enemies are. Thats a fucking low blow dude, even though it was aimed at a moronic post... are you seriously making fun of the death of Alexandros Grigoropoulos as if it was nothing to care about?

IllicitPopsicle

13th December 2009, 04:07

If this gets me banned, I frankly don't give a fuck.
Fuck this thread, and fuck Uncle Ho.
You're an elitist codger who needs to go die.

Uncle Ho

13th December 2009, 07:47

Thats a fucking low blow dude, even though it was aimed at a moronic post... are you seriously making fun of the death of Alexandros Grigoropoulos as if it was nothing to care about?

Why is it a low blow to point out that Alexandros was a bourgeoisie kid? It is the truth. He lived in the wealthiest area in the whole of Greece and attended a private school with an annual fee several times the yearly wage of the average worker. He was, by any definition, bourgeois to the core.

Leftists getting upset about his death is like us getting upset about Paris Hilton's death. It's hard to applaud suffering, but I have to question why we're so mad at the death of some kid born into the oppressor class.

I know Anarchists aren't huge on the whole class consciousness thing, but can you really be that blind?

Plagueround

13th December 2009, 08:09

Why is it a low blow to point out that Alexandros was a bourgeoisie kid? It is the truth. He lived in the wealthiest area in the whole of Greece and attended a private school with an annual fee several times the yearly wage of the average worker. He was, by any definition, bourgeois to the core.

Leftists getting upset about his death is like us getting upset about Paris Hilton's death. It's hard to applaud suffering, but I have to question why we're so mad at the death of some kid born into the oppressor class.

Probably because leftists look beyond what people were born into and look at what they stand for. All throughout history we can find examples of leftists of all stripes coming from privileged backgrounds doing great things for their respective movements...Karl Marx himself wasn't exactly the child of poor laborers, but it doesn't make his ideas automatically invalid.

The question you should really be asking is why you're ok with the brutal murder of a 15 year old kid at the hands of police backed by a corrupt bourgeois state because his family had some money. Do you happen to have a cut off on how much money one can make to be authentic? Should the working class refrain from improving their lot in life for fear that hardcore jaded lefties won't like them anymore? Let me know so I be sure to turn down annual raises if I ever come close to achieving a sum where you feel my life is expendable.:rolleyes:

Delenda Carthago

13th December 2009, 16:01

leftists getting upset about his death is like us getting upset about paris hilton's death.

γαμω το σπιτι σου καριολη κνιτη.

Uncle Ho

13th December 2009, 16:12

Probably because leftists look beyond what people were born into and look at what they stand for. All throughout history we can find examples of leftists of all stripes coming from privileged backgrounds doing great things for their respective movements...Karl Marx himself wasn't exactly the child of poor laborers, but it doesn't make his ideas automatically invalid.

The main difference being Marx did something besides dress as a poor kid on weekends.

The question you should really be asking is why you're ok with the brutal murder of a 15 year old kid at the hands of police backed by a corrupt bourgeois state because his family had some money. Do you happen to have a cut off on how much money one can make to be authentic? Should the working class refrain from improving their lot in life for fear that hardcore jaded lefties won't like them anymore? Let me know so I be sure to turn down annual raises if I ever come close to achieving a sum where you feel my life is expendable.:rolleyes:I am not ok with it, but I find it very difficult to get angry about it, either.

It is odd indeed how all the poor people gunned down before got no riots in their honor, or how the Greek government ran the Roma out, burned their villages and beat them to death with nary a word in objection, but the second a bourgeois brat is slain, the entire country is up in arms with "working class solidarity" for a kid who never worked a day in his life and never would.

I guess this shows which side our Anarchist friends are batting for.

cyu

13th December 2009, 17:17

the second a bourgeois brat is slain, the entire country is up in arms with "working class solidarity" for a kid who never worked a day in his life and never would.
I guess this shows which side our Anarchist friends are batting for.

If you believe all anarchists are the children of CEOs, corporate executives, and boards of directors, feel free to believe that. However, if you can co-opt them into fighting capitalism, I would rather do that than ignore "them".

bcbm

13th December 2009, 23:11

It is odd indeed how all the poor people gunned down before got no riots in their honor, or how the Greek government ran the Roma out, burned their villages and beat them to death with nary a word in objection, but the second a bourgeois brat is slain, the entire country is up in arms with "working class solidarity" for a kid who never worked a day in his life and never would.

I guess this shows which side our Anarchist friends are batting for.

from what i've seen, anarchists seem to be among the few who actually do anything in regards to all the other things you listed.

Uncle Ho

14th December 2009, 01:19

from what i've seen, anarchists seem to be among the few who actually do anything in regards to all the other things you listed.

I will post a video of myself eating my own hat if I see Anarchists fighting for the rights of the Roma.

I am quite confident that my hat is safe, however, being as these kids don't even know what they're fighting for now. A political goal of that caliber would be far beyond them.

bcbm

14th December 2009, 01:34

I will post a video of myself eating my own hat if I see Anarchists fighting for the rights of the Roma.

I am quite confident that my hat is safe, however, being as these kids don't even know what they're fighting for now. A political goal of that caliber would be far beyond them.

statement from anarchists during last years riots included other police murders

This murder is neither an accident nor an isolated incident. It is one more link in a endless series of murderous attacks of the various departments of the police. Let us not forget the murder of the Pakistani immigrant at Petrou Ralli Street(1), while he was waiting in line to apply for asylum (in a line that the state itself had told him to wait). Let us not forget that recently a woman was murdered in Leukimmi(2), from actions of the MAT(3) against the XYTA(4) establishment in their area. The list, unfortunately, is endless.

here (http://greeceriots.blogspot.com/2009/07/immigrant-solidarity-demonstrations-in.html) is a report from a demonstration in solidarity with immigrants when they faced attacks. there have been other demos of this sort, and i believe some actions against the immigrant prisons.

the attacks on roma you're talking about sound more like what has been happening in italy lately than greece, or at least i could find some references to the italian events, but not anything on greece.

Uncle Ho

14th December 2009, 01:38

Nice to know the Greek revolutionary vanguards are out there smashing security cameras and ATMs to liberate the Roma.

I once saw an ATM machine killing an entire truckload of Roma babies, it was truly horrific.

And why is it that they riot so hard for a slain bourgeois kid, and those truly oppressed by the cops get only footnotes?

bcbm

14th December 2009, 01:50

first they don't fight, now they don't fight hard enough. why don't you just shut the fuck up.

Delenda Carthago

14th December 2009, 02:32

REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL

14th December 2009, 08:52

Who is denouncing demonstrations, strikes, occupations, etc.? Nobody here, and not the communists in Greece either. But they don't support mindlessly smashing windows, either. The riots last year were larger and much more explosive, yet the whole "revolt" still petered out within a month because it lacked any meaningful direction (especially when you consider that whole pesky "class" thing). The riots this year seem less impressive, so what "awesome events" are you expecting this time? Yet the communists are the bad guys for wanting to build a working class movement that can wage class struggle.

Whatever. When in doubt, post pictures of cows on toilets.

No doubt the "revolt" petered out. Thats what these things do. Or has your CP called for an "eternal strike?" or "eternal demonstration?"

The point is that the riots are no different from any of those - don't assume that because they don't "last forever" (Who the hell would riot forever, or even be able too? The police will get their act together eventually?) the point of them is to end the rioting in a stronger point than when they started. And I think thats pretty obviously true. And way more so than it has been for any "demonstration" the Greek Communist Party has launched

Wanted Man

14th December 2009, 09:52

No doubt the "revolt" petered out. Thats what these things do. Or has your CP called for an "eternal strike?" or "eternal demonstration?"

The point is that the riots are no different from any of those - don't assume that because they don't "last forever" (Who the hell would riot forever, or even be able too? The police will get their act together eventually?) the point of them is to end the rioting in a stronger point than when they started. And I think thats pretty obviously true. And way more so than it has been for any "demonstration" the Greek Communist Party has launched

No, but the CP aren't claiming that their actions constitute "the revolution" at this very moment. They do not believe that the working class and its revolutionary potential can be substituted by some other class or social segment ("the youth", "insurrectionists", or anything else).

An archist

14th December 2009, 10:33

This is a bit off-topic, but anyway...

I will post a video of myself eating my own hat if I see Anarchists fighting for the rights of the Roma.

I am quite confident that my hat is safe, however, being as these kids don't even know what they're fighting for now. A political goal of that caliber would be far beyond them.

This is a benefit for Roma, organised by anarchists.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb145/Dienjht1740/untitled.jpg

In the city of Ghent (Belgium) Roma and anarchist squatters have worked together quite often while squatting houses and standing up for Roma rights.

This is an article in dutch about Roma and anarchists squatting a huge building next to the train station in Ghent.
http://www.nieuwsblad.be/article/detail.aspx?articleid=GAP179REE

When can we expect the video?

Uncle Ho

14th December 2009, 16:40

first they don't fight, now they don't fight hard enough. why don't you just shut the fuck up.

If you're being strangled and I mumble something about saving you before I beat up a random old lady walking down the street, would you say I am fighting for you?

How, exactly, is breaking ATMs going to help immigrants in any way? Or anyone, for that matter? You can smash things all you want, but unless you're focused on one goal, smashing things is all you'll ever accomplish.

its quite funny because,actually,in December revolt,the Romas of Zefiri did revolt and attacked the police station with shotguns and trucks!;)

Maybe the party hadnt told them about the "secret agents of CIA under the hoods".:laugh:

So what you're saying here is while the anarchists were busy smashing cameras and cash machines, the Romas stood up themselves and did something?

That's cool. They're smarter than I thought, using you kids as a diversion.

This is a bit off-topic, but anyway...

This is a benefit for Roma, organised by anarchists.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb145/Dienjht1740/untitled.jpg

In the city of Ghent (Belgium) Roma and anarchist squatters have worked together quite often while squatting houses and standing up for Roma rights.

This is an article in dutch about Roma and anarchists squatting a huge building next to the train station in Ghent.
http://www.nieuwsblad.be/article/detail.aspx?articleid=GAP179REE

When can we expect the video?

When you understand that holding benefit concerts and squatting are a far cry from fighting for the rights of the oppressed.

An archist

14th December 2009, 21:47

When you understand that holding benefit concerts and squatting are a far cry from fighting for the rights of the oppressed.

It's pretty clear that in your opinion anarchists can never do anything right. If we have benefit parties for homeless Roma, squat houses together with them, have meetings and marches together and pretty openly demand rights for Roma, you still say we're not fighting for Roma rights.
So of course, whatever anarchists do, it will always be bad in your eyes.

bcbm

14th December 2009, 21:51

If you're being strangled and I mumble something about saving you before I beat up a random old lady walking down the street, would you say I am fighting for you?

it sounds like the demo i linked was in response to an attack on some immigrant housing. the demo was to raise awareness and perhaps a small showing of force to the state that they should back down or there would be trouble.

How, exactly, is breaking ATMs going to help immigrants in any way? Or anyone, for that matter?

nobody said it was going to. this is presumably why it occurred as a very minor part of a larger action that saw lots of information distributed and ended with immigrants actively fighting against the police who had been attacking their communities.

So what you're saying here is while the anarchists were busy smashing cameras and cash machines, the Romas stood up themselves and did something?

the events last devember saw many attacks on police and police stations by many different segments of society. :rolleyes:

Pogue

14th December 2009, 21:54

Plagueround

15th December 2009, 04:38

Looks like the dinner menu tonight is hat. And crow.

Uncle Ho

15th December 2009, 06:09

It's pretty clear that in your opinion anarchists can never do anything right. If we have benefit parties for homeless Roma, squat houses together with them, have meetings and marches together and pretty openly demand rights for Roma, you still say we're not fighting for Roma rights.
So of course, whatever anarchists do, it will always be bad in your eyes.

Well, outside of my own belief that Anarchists are actively harmful to any credible leftist movement and you should seek to distance yourself from them as much as possible, it's pretty sad that you think holding benefit concerts and squatting is going to advance the struggle for human rights in any way whatsoever.

it sounds like the demo i linked was in response to an attack on some immigrant housing. the demo was to raise awareness and perhaps a small showing of force to the state that they should back down or there would be trouble.

Smashing cash machines for immigrant rights.

Only an Anarchist would think of this.

nobody said it was going to. this is presumably why it occurred as a very minor part of a larger action that saw lots of information distributed and ended with immigrants actively fighting against the police who had been attacking their communities.I'm sure they appreciated the broken ATMs in their wake. I hear the police use the ATMs as secret staging points from which to wage war on the immigrants.

How nice of the Anarchists to mull about breaking them while the oppressed peoples actually do something proactive, then take all the credit for it so they can justify their continuing lifestyle.

the events last devember saw many attacks on police and police stations by many different segments of society. :rolleyes:And since these bourgeois kids decided to just burn and hit instead of forming a cohesive movement with clear goals, community outreach and focused action, those events petered out once mommy and daddy threatened to revoke the rioter's allowances.

All subsequent events will do the same, because they are being undertaken by the same group of people who think rioting over the death of an obscenely rich "comrade" (Or, even allowing one of these vampires into their ranks in the first place) is a good idea which represents the epoch of class struggle.

Looks like the dinner menu tonight is hat. And crow.

There's a big difference between fighting for immigrants and breaking an ATM at your benefit concert while you watch them fight for themselves.

bcbm

15th December 2009, 06:23

Smashing cash machines for immigrant rights.

Only an Anarchist would think of this. . .

How nice of the Anarchists to mull about breaking them while the oppressed peoples actually do something proactive, then take all the credit for it so they can justify their continuing lifestyle.

presumably atms were attacked for the same reason banks are often attacked- they're obvious symbols of capitalism. anarchists are against capitalism, so... a few atms get fucked up. of course, if you read the article, you would probably notice, as i already said, that this was a minor part of a larger action where a lot of counter-information was distributed and the police were fought by both anarchists and immigrants, together.

And since these bourgeois kids decided to just burn and hit instead of forming a cohesive movement with clear goals, community outreach and focused action, those events petered out once mommy and daddy threatened to revoke the rioter's allowances.

so its your belief that everyone who rioted last december were children of the ruling class? how stupid. there are certainly criticisms to be leveled around the events and you come close to making them, but your continuous ignorant shit-talking distracts from any reasonable discussion that could be happening.

Delenda Carthago

15th December 2009, 08:06

Anarchists in Greece regularly hold solidarity actions with the immigrants over there, there was a recent case where there was open street fighting with knives and molotovs against the Golden Dawn, i.e. Uncle Ho has no idea what he is talking about.

You godamn right.In that area,KKE was forbited by the neonazis of GD to put a stand of theirs for the elections and DID NOTHING.Two weeks later,we had to fight fascists and police combined in a fight in the middle of the street.

Uncle *****,we are waiting for the video...ROBAX!:laugh:

Uncle Ho

15th December 2009, 18:14

presumably atms were attacked for the same reason banks are often attacked- they're obvious symbols of capitalism. anarchists are against capitalism, so... a few atms get fucked up. of course, if you read the article, you would probably notice, as i already said, that this was a minor part of a larger action where a lot of counter-information was distributed and the police were fought by both anarchists and immigrants, together.

Then mommy and daddy called the Anarchists home for dinner, and since they cannot for the life of them form any cohesive political movements, they accomplished nothing. These kids are only interested in trashing and fighting, not societal change. You could probably get Anarchists to riot for the rights of tomatoes if they'd think they could piss off their parents by doing it.

so its your belief that everyone who rioted last december were children of the ruling class? how stupid. there are certainly criticisms to be leveled around the events and you come close to making them, but your continuous ignorant shit-talking distracts from any reasonable discussion that could be happening.Well, they are rioting for one of the children of the ruling class, so they're either in the same boat or incredibly stupid.

Patchd

15th December 2009, 18:18

Alex was a child of the ruling class? I never knew this, care to back it up, or are you just going to continue to spew out utter shit?

Uncle Ho

15th December 2009, 18:33

Alex was a child of the ruling class? I never knew this, care to back it up, or are you just going to continue to spew out utter shit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandros_Grigoropoulos

He attended the Moraitis School, a private, incredibly expensive and very "prestigous" private school, he lived in Psychiko, which is a suburb existing almost entirely for diplomats and incredibly affluent businesspeople.

He was never working class and if he lived out every day of his life, never would have been, yet this is the golden boy for the Anarchists. They're idolizing the oppressor class, because they themselves are of it.

Patchd

15th December 2009, 18:44

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandros_Grigoropoulos

He attended the Moraitis School, a private, incredibly expensive and very "prestigous" private school, he lived in Psychiko, which is a suburb existing almost entirely for diplomats and incredibly affluent businesspeople.

He was never working class and if he lived out every day of his life, never would have been, yet this is the golden boy for the Anarchists. They're idolizing the oppressor class, because they themselves are of it.
Fair enough, thanks for that, and I retract what I previously said to you.

Still however, are you suggesting that Communists do not come from other classes? Not only that, but there have been examples of Anarchists and Marxists who have not come from the working class, and yet these people still receive vast interest and support, and some have been actual members of the ruling class (Engels/Bakunin etc.), as opposed to a 15 year old child, who lives in a prosperous neighbourhood and whose parents may or may not be a diplomat.

Let me tell you that I work part-time in a restaurant, getting paid less than minimum wage, and one of my workmates is a daughter of a Thai diplomat. Being the child of a diplomat shouldn't diminish the importance of that death, especially because it was conducted by the capitalist state against a child, of whose class background, the police officers could not possibly be aware of. This was essentially a spark that lit off the working class youth, and adult population because they realised that this can so easily happen to them and their children ... I guess even more so, because if this was seen as an attack against a child of the 'ruling class' by their own state, what would it do to working class people?

bcbm

15th December 2009, 18:48

Then mommy and daddy called the Anarchists home for dinner, and since they cannot for the life of them form any cohesive political movements, they accomplished nothing. These kids are only interested in trashing and fighting, not societal change. You could probably get Anarchists to riot for the rights of tomatoes if they'd think they could piss off their parents by doing it.

Well, they are rioting for one of the children of the ruling class, so they're either in the same boat or incredibly stupid.

i'd like to reply, but i can't find anything of substance in your post to reply to.

Muzk

15th December 2009, 18:55

Anarchist doctrine is complete fantasy that would serve only as a transitional state to feudalism.

You could probably get Anarchists to riot for the rights of tomatoes if they'd think they could piss off their parents by doing it.

:thumbup:

no rly, gtfo

Delenda Carthago

15th December 2009, 20:13

Then mommy and daddy called the Anarchists home for dinner, and since they cannot for the life of them form any cohesive political movements, they accomplished nothing. These kids are only interested in trashing and fighting, not societal change. You could probably get Anarchists to riot for the rights of tomatoes if they'd think they could piss off their parents by doing it.

Well, they are rioting for one of the children of the ruling class, so they're either in the same boat or incredibly stupid.

I wonder why someone doesnt ban you from this forum.All you do is talkin shit against anarchists,you havent replied once politically,and you even compared a 15 year old whose mother had a jewelry store(rulling class!) with Paris Hilton.You are fuckin disgusting and you have nothing to offer.Die.

What Would Durruti Do?

15th December 2009, 21:01

Well if this troll isn't going to get banned, I think it's time to ignore him. He obviously isn't bringing any kind of intelligent discussion to the table.

What Would Durruti Do?

15th December 2009, 21:10

Ohh now I understand...
No smashed windows = failure.

That was sarcasm, genius. It was satire of Uncle Ho who apparently can't decide if the protesters in Greece went too far (rioting/occupations/strikes) or didn't go far enough (not bringing about a revolution)

Andropov

15th December 2009, 21:20

That was sarcasm, genius. It was satire of Uncle Ho who apparently can't decide if the protesters in Greece went too far (rioting/occupations/strikes) or didn't go far enough (not bringing about a revolution)
Ohh now I understand, your funny...
Keep it up champ.

Uncle Ho

15th December 2009, 21:26

I wonder why someone doesnt ban you from this forum.All you do is talkin shit against anarchists,you havent replied once politically,and you even compared a 15 year old whose mother had a jewelry store(rulling class!) with Paris Hilton.You are fuckin disgusting and you have nothing to offer.Die.

Must have been a pretty big jewelry store, then, if she was able to live in the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Greece and send her son to a school which costs more yearly than the wage of the average worker.

Disregarding that the jewelry business is disgusting and has led to enormous suffering throughout the third world, you could be in the oppressor class selling pillows. What she sold is irrelevant, what is clear is that this family had an enormous amount of wealth and was decidedly not working class.

Patchd

15th December 2009, 21:28

Must have been a pretty big jewelry store, then, if she was able to live in the most exclusive neighborhood in all of Greece and send her son to a school which costs more yearly than the wage of the average worker.

Disregarding that the jewelry business is disgusting and has led to enormous suffering throughout the third world, you could be in the oppressor class selling pillows. What she sold is irrelevant, what is clear is that this family had an enormous amount of wealth and was decidedly not working class.
Agreed, but that does not diminish his death. The capitalist state do not shoot the children of the ruling class unless mistaken for a child of the working class.

Uncle Ho

15th December 2009, 21:31

Agreed, but that does not diminish his death. The capitalist state do not shoot the children of the ruling class unless mistaken for a child of the working class.

No, this does not diminish his tragic death at the hands of Greece's armed thugs.

What does diminish it is people flailing about in the streets with no political goal or clear direction. This many people could easily push for disarming the police, deposing the government or a myriad of other things that would make society better and help ensure this does not happen again.

But they don't. They just march about, burning things and hitting cops. I applaud action, but the only difference between a thug and a revolutionary is direction. We must always remember that.

What Would Durruti Do?

15th December 2009, 21:34

I'm still confused as to why it matters what class a 16 year old kid belonged to. I wasn't even aware a 16 year old kid could be a worker or an owner of the means of production anyway. Did he run a lemonade stand or something? Damn capitalist.

What Would Durruti Do?

15th December 2009, 21:38

This many people could easily push for disarming the police, deposing the government or a myriad of other things that would make society better and help ensure this does not happen again.

So "200 bourgeois kids" who get their jollies off on smashing windows are capable of disarming Greece's entire police force and overthrowing the government?

Somehow I doubt that would even be possible with thousands of armed revolutionaries.

So either these wealthy punk kids are just bored juveniles, or they're revolutionaries who don't know how to start a revolution, which is it? I'm tired of you going back and forth. Pick an argument already.

Uncle Ho

15th December 2009, 21:40

They're bored juveniles without direction, and that is why they don't know how to start a revolution. Anyone can be a revolutionary, they just need commitment, focus and clear direction.

How's that for an answer?

I'm still confused as to why it matters what class a 16 year old kid belonged to. I wasn't even aware a 16 year old kid could be a worker or an owner of the means of production anyway. Did he run a lemonade stand or something? Damn capitalist.

Perhaps you've stumbled into the wrong forum, or perhaps I'm just old fashioned, but I always thought class consciousness and the emancipation of the Proletariat (Not the ruling bourgeoisie) was a big deal in leftist circles.

I admit my recollection may be fuzzy from many years, but I do recall that these things are in fact the pillars upon which our movements are based.

What Would Durruti Do?

15th December 2009, 21:45

They're bored juveniles without direction, and that is why they don't know how to start a revolution. Anyone can be a revolutionary, they just need commitment, focus and clear direction.

How's that for an answer?

A lame one.

How do you propose a bunch of "bored juveniles" go about disarming the entire Greek police force and overthrowing the state then? And why aren't you asking the same (if not more) of the "true revolutionaries" like the Leninists, Trots, Stalinists, whatever?

Perhaps you've stumbled into the wrong forum, or perhaps I'm just old fashioned, but I always thought class consciousness and the emancipation of the Proletariat (Not the ruling bourgeoisie) was a big deal in leftist circles.

Yeah... but we're talking about a 16 year old KID here who got shot by the police. What does class have to do with that? And how can you categorize a kid who most likely has never left home into any class in the first place?

Uncle Ho

15th December 2009, 21:56

A lame one.

How do you propose a bunch of "bored juveniles" go about disarming the entire Greek police force and overthrowing the state then? And why aren't you asking the same (if not more) of the "true revolutionaries" like the Leninists, Trots, Stalinists, whatever?

Well, what they're doing now would work, they just need a clear goal and broad community outreach.

The power of the people can still accomplish goals, but when your only goal is "RARRRGHH SMASH" you're not going to get much done.

I criticize Socialist groups, as well. It's just that they seem to feel that waving signs and chanting is how a modern revolution is won.

Yeah... but we're talking about a 16 year old KID here who got shot by the police. What does class have to do with that? And how can you categorize a kid who most likely has never left home into any class in the first place?I just find it strange when poor kids are killed every day and there are no significant actions in the streets, but when it's a rich kid, the Anarchists act as if it is a declaration of war.

bcbm

15th December 2009, 22:00

I just find it strange when poor kids are killed every day and there are no significant actions in the streets, but when it's a rich kid, the Anarchists act as if it is a declaration of war.

maybe it has to do with the fact that he identified as part of the anarchist movement and was killed because he was an anarchist kid in the anarchist neighborhood, not that he was rich?

Patchd

15th December 2009, 22:02

Uncle Ho:

Not as such, 'the Anarchists' didn't get aggravated because it was a rich kid who died, if you seriously think that, then you're seriously deluded. I think the point is that this was a 15 year old person, who was shot and killed, how many 15 year olds are shot and killed in Greece every year? Likewise, in Britain, when Ian Tomlinson was murdered by the police at the G20, there was an uproar (he was working class), not only from the Anarchist movement, but also from our class.

... and what bcbm said.

Uncle Ho

15th December 2009, 22:05

maybe it has to do with the fact that he identified as part of the anarchist movement and was killed because he was an anarchist kid in the anarchist neighborhood, not that he was rich?

So then anarchists only care if it's "one of them" who is killed? All the other people who have suffered similar fates at the hands of the Capitalist thugs does not phase them, because they are not self-proclaimed anarchists?

No wonder they're not successful, with that kind of attitude.

Uncle Ho:

Not as such, 'the Anarchists' didn't get aggravated because it was a rich kid who died, if you seriously think that, then you're seriously deluded. I think the point is that this was a 15 year old person, who was shot and killed, how many 15 year olds are shot and killed in Greece every year? Likewise, in Britain, when Ian Tomlinson was murdered by the police at the G20, there was an uproar (he was working class), not only from the Anarchist movement, but also from our class.

... and what bcbm said.

More than just one, I'd imagine. It is a capitalist society, after all.

But the Anarchists don't seem to care unless it's one of them being brutalized.

What Would Durruti Do?

15th December 2009, 22:05

Well, what they're doing now would work, they just need a clear goal and broad community outreach.

The power of the people can still accomplish goals, but when your only goal is "RARRRGHH SMASH" you're not going to get much done.

I criticize Socialist groups, as well. It's just that they seem to feel that waving signs and chanting is how a modern revolution is won.

I'm still confused

what they're doing now = RARRGHH SMASH = would work if they had a clear goal and board community outreach (which you keep saying, but haven't provided many examples of)

RARRGHH SMASH = not going to get much done

Seems like you contradicted yourself.

I just find it strange when poor kids are killed every day and there are no significant actions in the streets, but when it's a rich kid, the Anarchists act as if it is a declaration of war.Poor kids are shot in the streets of Athens every day by police who receive no punishment at all for their actions? Wow, Greece is a lot worse than I realized.

Anyway, actions of solidarity may be sparked by one single event, but if you think Anarchists for some reason don't care if a poor kid gets shot by the police, then you are mistaken. These protests were protests against ALL police violence, not just one instance of it.

Just because this one kid had somewhat well off parents doesn't mean all Greek anarchists are the children of diplomats and capitalists.

Uncle Ho

15th December 2009, 22:15

I'm still confused

what they're doing now = RARRGHH SMASH = would work if they had a clear goal and board community outreach (which you keep saying, but haven't provided many examples of)

RARRGHH SMASH = not going to get much done

Seems like you contradicted yourself.

How is that a contradiction? Groups like the IRA, the EZLN, the Bolsheviks and others were successful through fighting, but they fought for a clear and well established goal.

Even lesser groups have had considerable success, but only when they have a goal to go along with their action. Rioting for nothing will bring you nothing.

Poor kids are shot in the streets of Athens every day by police who receive no punishment at all for their actions? Wow, Greece is a lot worse than I realized.

Firstly, this cop is being tried. Secondly, there are other forms of oppression than cops shooting rich kids. We should be fighting all of it.

Anyway, actions of solidarity may be sparked by one single event, but if you think Anarchists for some reason don't care if a poor kid gets shot by the police, then you are mistaken. These protests were protests against ALL police violence, not just one instance of it.

Not that you could tell from the actions, which only mention their Anarchist brother, and gloss over all the other murders perpetrated by the state jackboots.

Just because this one kid had somewhat well off parents doesn't mean all Greek anarchists are the children of diplomats and capitalists.

They might not be, but they sure act like it, what with their disconnect from the working class, or indeed, any real community at all.

bcbm

15th December 2009, 22:17

So then anarchists only care if it's "one of them" who is killed? All the other people who have suffered similar fates at the hands of the Capitalist thugs does not phase them, because they are not self-proclaimed anarchists?

No wonder they're not successful, with that kind of attitude.

actually i think you should be more curious why many non-anarchists joined the riots when a 15 year old anarchist was executed, and as i've said elsewhere, the answer lies in this act being more of a final straw than the first. the anarchists themselves have taken action in response to the murder of others, particularly immigrants. a brief google search will reveal this.

Not that you could tell from the actions, which only mention their Anarchist brother, and gloss over all the other murders perpetrated by the state jackboots.

in this very thread, i believe, there is a link to anarchists mentioning many other state murders by the police, and state repression in general. you responded to this link, so obviously you read it. you're full of shit.

What Would Durruti Do?

15th December 2009, 22:25

How is that a contradiction? Groups like the IRA, the EZLN, the Bolsheviks and others were successful through fighting, but they fought for a clear and well established goal.

Uhm, those were all armed revolutionary groups. Greece has some of those too, but not nearly as influential as those.

Even lesser groups have had considerable success, but only when they have a goal to go along with their action. Rioting for nothing will bring you nothing.

Rioting for nothing? If it were for nothing, they wouldn't be doing it. Anarchists want to create anarchy. I'd say they did a pretty good job at that over the weekend. Of course it takes more than molotov cocktails to destroy the state and to actually develop that anarchy into a new society, but what's the point in setting such unrealistic goals?

Firstly, this cop is being tried. Secondly, there are other forms of oppression than cops shooting rich kids. We should be fighting all of it.

Uh.. you realize this happened a year ago right? The first riots (last year) happened because the cop wasn't punished.

And of course we should be fighting it all. But these protests/riots started because of police shooting a kid. I know reds like to re-write history, but lets not forget what sparked these events in the first place.

Not that you could tell from the actions, which only mention their Anarchist brother, and gloss over all the other murders perpetrated by the state jackboots.

See above. There isn't any "glossing over", they're just bringing attention to WHY THE PROTESTS AND RIOTS ARE TAKING PLACE.

What kind of skewed logic are you using to assume that getting angry over one event = ignoring all the rest?

They might not be, but they sure act like it, what with their disconnect from the working class, or indeed, any real community at all.

And now we're back to the flat out lies and ignorance.

nuisance

15th December 2009, 22:32

Is Uncle Ho not embarassed of his performance here? :laugh:

Patchd

15th December 2009, 23:04

More than just one, I'd imagine. It is a capitalist society, after all.

But the Anarchists don't seem to care unless it's one of them being brutalized.
Can you provide sources or figures to show this? You can't base an argument simply on your imagination.

An archist

15th December 2009, 23:14

Im still waiting for the video of Uncle Ho eating his hat by the way.

Uncle Ho

15th December 2009, 23:48

Uhm, those were all armed revolutionary groups. Greece has some of those too, but not nearly as influential as those.

Yes, as opposed to Anarchists, who are just armed groups. Can't really call yourselves revolutionaries when you have no goal.

Rioting for nothing? If it were for nothing, they wouldn't be doing it. Anarchists want to create anarchy. I'd say they did a pretty good job at that over the weekend. Of course it takes more than molotov cocktails to destroy the state and to actually develop that anarchy into a new society, but what's the point in setting such unrealistic goals?Yeah, what is the point in setting goals when you can just smash things. I mean, why even bother? If you had goals, people might respect you and support you, then you'd get things accomplished and could no longer break windows and burn cars.

That wouldn't be ANY fun at all!

Uh.. you realize this happened a year ago right? The first riots (last year) happened because the cop wasn't punished.Yes, and if you've read this thread you'd notice that the Anarchists have ran the trial of the cop out of town, proving further that they have no goal or purpose.

And of course we should be fighting it all. But these protests/riots started because of police shooting a kid. I know reds like to re-write history, but lets not forget what sparked these events in the first place.Oh, trust me, unlike the Anarchists, I have not forgotten that they're fighting to gain some infantile sense of revenge on the cops for killing a rich kid. It's odd how you talk about re-writing history, when even in this thread the Anarchists have been attempting to cast their golden boy as some sort of working class hero.

See above. There isn't any "glossing over", they're just bringing attention to WHY THE PROTESTS AND RIOTS ARE TAKING PLACE.Which is the death of a rich kid, yet these groups are supposedly for the working class. Now, what these riots hope to accomplish is anyone's guess, which means it will inevitably be nothing.

What kind of skewed logic are you using to assume that getting angry over one event = ignoring all the rest?Because the rest have been buried under the mantle of Alexandros, the great hero and martyr of the Proletariat.

What kind of skewed logic are you using to assume that aimlessly rioting is going to accomplish some heretofore unmentioned political goal, or make society better in any way?

Is Uncle Ho not embarassed of his performance here? :laugh:

No, assuming I already got all the high-horse Anarchists to admit that they have no goals, will accomplish nothing and have no desire for any betterment of society or indeed anything but infantile displays of blind rage, I'd say this is a great victory.

Of course, anyone dumb enough to fall for the utter fantasy of the Anarchist "movement" could not see this, I fear.

What Would Durruti Do?

16th December 2009, 02:32

Yes, as opposed to Anarchists, who are just armed groups. Can't really call yourselves revolutionaries when you have no goal.

Armed? Huh? Those were the cops who had guns, not the protesters. And all anarchists are revolutionaries as you can't achieve true communism without a revolution...

Yeah, what is the point in setting goals when you can just smash things. I mean, why even bother? If you had goals, people might respect you and support you, then you'd get things accomplished and could no longer break windows and burn cars.

That wouldn't be ANY fun at all!

Ok everyone, I'm going to use Uncle Ho's logic and storm the White House by myself tomorrow, guns a-blaze, rambo-style and declare the United States to be a free territory.

The protesters had plenty of goals, just not your ridiculously unrealistic goal of glorious proletarian revolution. I apologize that the Greeks are actually sane, unlike you.

Yes, and if you've read this thread you'd notice that the Anarchists have ran the trial of the cop out of town, proving further that they have no goal or purpose.

Yes, I'm aware that the trial was moved out of town because of fear of unrest. Proving that the state is afraid of anarchists. I'm not sure how it proves what you claim it proves though.

Oh, trust me, unlike the Anarchists, I have not forgotten that they're fighting to gain some infantile sense of revenge on the cops for killing a rich kid.

So now it's infantile to protest police violence? Good to see which side you're on, Ho.

It's odd how you talk about re-writing history, when even in this thread the Anarchists have been attempting to cast their golden boy as some sort of working class hero.

That's funny, because I'm pretty sure you're the only one I've seen refer to him as such, even if just in jest.

Which is the death of a rich kid, yet these groups are supposedly for the working class. Now, what these riots hope to accomplish is anyone's guess, which means it will inevitably be nothing.

Rich kid? Again, you're confusing his parents wealth for his own. A kid is a kid. He does not belong to a class. Personally, I care for ALL Greek children. No matter how much money some of their parents might have.

Because the rest have been buried under the mantle of Alexandros, the great hero and martyr of the Proletariat.

I repeat: "That's funny, because I'm pretty sure you're the only one I've seen refer to him as such, even if just in jest."

What kind of skewed logic are you using to assume that aimlessly rioting is going to accomplish some heretofore unmentioned political goal, or make society better in any way?

You're right. I have no idea how solidarity actions, direct action, politically-motivated protests and marches, occupations, worker strikes, and general civil unrest will ever make society any better. This whole leftism stuff is a load of crap. Thanks for opening my eyes, later guys!

What Would Durruti Do?

16th December 2009, 02:41

Also, when can we expect your critique of the red movement in Greece and their similar failure to bring about a revolution over the weekend? What a joke that Marxism stuff is, huh. Let me guess, they need some clearer goals. :laugh:

bcbm

16th December 2009, 02:45

What Would Durruti Do?

16th December 2009, 03:05

actually, i think the concern over lack of a longer term insurrectionary strategy is legitimate and it is unfortunate that uncle ho is unable to raise it without resorting to all sorts of ridiculous slander that muddies the argument.

It would concern me if I were to believe that an insurrection was actually attempted. But as far as I can tell it was just good old fashioned rioting.

A true insurrection (at least one that wants to be at least a little successful) would require weaponry, so I doubt we'll see such a thing unless rioters were able to occupy an army base or police station of some sort where weapons caches could be retrieved.

And even then, I don't think the public support is great enough that the working class would take up arms in support. Most likely they would just watch the perpetrators get slain on television from the comfort of their couches.

Uncle Ho

16th December 2009, 03:09

I'd be ok with just a short term strategy, really.

It's just that this "movement" has no stated goals. We know they're out in the streets because a kid was shot, but what do they hope to accomplish? What do they want out of these riots? As I said before, no amount of fighting will ever bring this kid back, so why are they doing it?

Unless they can answer this question clearly, and let their actions reflect this answer, they will fail. Breaking things because you're angry will not bring about social change on it's own.

It would concern me if I were to believe that an insurrection was actually attempted. But as far as I can tell it was just good old fashioned rioting.

A true insurrection (at least one that wants to be at least a little successful) would require weaponry, so I doubt we'll see such a thing unless rioters were able to occupy an army base or police station of some sort where weapons caches could be retrieved.

And even then, I don't think the public support is great enough that the working class would take up arms in support. Most likely they would just watch the perpetrators get slain on television from the comfort of their couches.

So then, you're admitting that these riots will accomplish nothing?

Also, you do know how you get public support, right? Here's a hint. You start with stating your goals and ideals clearly, and making sure that everyone knows them. From there you educate and organize the community to gain strength for your goals.

These Anarchists lack even the first, and don't seem to have any interest at all in the second.

bcbm

16th December 2009, 03:13

It would concern me if I were to believe that an insurrection was actually attempted. But as far as I can tell it was just good old fashioned rioting.

yes, obviously it was just "good old fashioned rioting," and that's the point. i think all of our actions should be part of a larger strategy, and rioting on that scale is a real opportunity to take an offensive. i don't think anyone expected it to get to the scale it did, but we should be prepared for those types of situations and ready to exploit them. i think a great chance was missed last december because, as far as i can tell, the greek rioters had no plan for what to do when they had beaten the police on the streets and mobilized to that extent.

A true insurrection (at least one that wants to be at least a little successful) would require weaponry, so I doubt we'll see such a thing unless rioters were able to occupy an army base of some sort where weapons caches could be retrieved.i think you would be surprised at how quickly weapons can appear when the situation moves from riot to insurrection. although at an early stage, it would probably be possible to secure some territory without the immediate need for guns.

Uncle Ho

16th December 2009, 03:25

Guns are somewhat hard to come by in Greece (Except Crete and Mani), but there are plenty of weapons out there that are not guns. Some of them are even more effective than a simple firearm.

That said, if these Anarchists actually had a political goal, they wouldn't need any serious weaponry, as they're already exerting enough force on the Government to push through new laws. This opportunity isn't being squandered because they lack hardware, it's being squandered because they lack direction.

The Essence Of Flame Is The Essence Of Change

16th December 2009, 11:43

Aha, seems that one week I spent without a pc saved me from some serious stupidity in both this and another couple of threads about the events here.I'm gonna stand only in a couple of things I read.

The claim that anarchists are representing the petit bourgeioise or even bourgeioise is seriously and deeply flawed and is based (as Jurko pointed out excellently in another thread) on Engel's initial critique of Proudhon's work.Proudhon was a mutualist, and even though he certainly helped the broader anarcho-socialistic movement develop in theory , he himself had little grasp on class war reality and a non-materialistic view of history.To judge all anarchists from the work of one single 19th century individual is deliberately beyond moronic.And I don't understand it really.How the fudge is the struggle for a classless and stateless society helping more the petit bourgeioise than the proletariat???And are you serious when you judge a person only by his class background?Last time I checked Marx and Engels, the very first ones to speak about communism were not exactly your average prole worker either...

About Alexandros (or Gregory as his friends called him) now,yes he attended Moraitis School untill one year before he was shot, after which he changed into another private school if I'm not mistaken.I have a friend from Moraitis who knew the kid personally and I am not sure he was an anarchist himself, however he was sympathetic to broader leftist and anarchist ideas and people something extremely rare for a private school where most students are apathetic, right wingers or even neo nazis (Golden Dawn members).The claim he was an anarchist I think, is part of the lies Kougias, the murderer's lawyer tried to pass to make the kid look like some kind of hooligan that deserved his fate (in the laywer's own words :mad:) while Gregory's character was far from violent.If my sources are not completely accurate I'd be happy to correct them, if one who knew the kid better can fill me.

Last but not least, yes of course the riots were just an outbreak of rage against the system as a whole without a clear aim.But that's what riots are, hello there.No Athens did not just revolt only for the death of a 15 year old, it was not a ''single event'' as Pavlopoulos, the minister of Public (dis)order so foolishly stated, but the final act in an already tentative situation.Especially for the students, which are suffering one of the most stressfull and destructing educational systems ever made, this was like a shot against our generation.From the words of a comrade, it's was like the government was saying: ''we mess up with your mind, we fuck your parents over at work who then return with nerves in their houses, we leech you of all your time and energy and when you go out to relax a bit, we shoot you and laugh at your corpses.'' Nevertheless, this riot was not the exclusive work of students and youth as the government, the media and the communist party of Greece tried to show.I saw immigrants back then shouting words against the state and the capital and working class people too, both anarchist ones and not.And in the end what do you expect?A revolution, no matter how organised it gets afterwards can only start from such insurrectionary acts.The people are pushed to the streets from rage against the system and any aims for greater goals are decided on the spot if the momentum and the circumstances permit it.That's why we anarchists find in every such ''useless outrage'' the chance for something bigger.So next time you want to critique something you better actively try and assist yourself first or shut the hell up if your only concern is that our ''disorganised methods'' are against your dialectical materialist equations.Theory is good and necessary, but only as a guide to action, sorry to break your ivory tower.

Oh and about Uncle Ho, I don't know why that pecker is not banned yet but I think he has shown he is just trolling.There is no logic to your posts, you contradict yourself and assume double standards as if your whole existence on this board is to throw mud at anarchism and anarchists (which propably is looking at the rest of your posts).No human movement is perfect but instead of argueing productively, supplying usefull criticisms, you just engage in flame wars.In a perfect world you would just roll over and kill yourself, but since there is no perfect world I propose that we just ignore the smart little fucker.

FSL

16th December 2009, 14:19

The claim that anarchists are representing the petit bourgeioise or even bourgeioise is seriously and deeply flawed and is based (as Jurko pointed out excellently in another thread) on Engel's initial critique of Proudhon's work.Proudhon was a mutualist, and even though he certainly helped the broader anarcho-socialistic movement develop in theory , he himself had little grasp on class war reality and a non-materialistic view of history.To judge all anarchists from the work of one single 19th century individual is deliberately beyond moronic.And I don't understand it really.How the fudge is the struggle for a classless and stateless society helping more the petit bourgeioise than the proletariat???

Anarchism moving away from Proudhon or Bakhunin -the most important tendencies nowadays anyway- does not equal breaking away from them. The false analysis of the role of the state, the "fear" or animosity shown towards it, the dislike of almost any form of actual organizing coupled with the individuals' opposition to "totalitarianism"; these are all petty bourgeois traits.

"the petty proprietor, the small master (a social type existing on a very extensive and even mass scale in many European countries), who, under capitalism, always suffers oppression and very frequently a most acute and rapid deterioration in his conditions of life, and even ruin, easily goes to revolutionary extremes, but is incapable of perseverance, organisation, discipline and steadfastness"

This is Lenin's remarks on the typical petty bourgeois behaviour. Doesn't it sound strangely familiar?

16th December 2009, 15:39

Anarchism moving away from Proudhon or Bakhunin -the most important tendencies nowadays anyway- does not equal breaking away from them. The false analysis of the role of the state, the "fear" or animosity shown towards it, the dislike of almost any form of actual organizing coupled with the individuals' opposition to "totalitarianism"; these are all petty bourgeois traits.n the typical petty bourgeois behaviour. Doesn't it sound strangely familiar?

AK is an organised yet anti-authoritarian federative organisation http://www.resistance2003.gr/ theyu are big in Greece, so what are you saying really.

Lenin realised that federalism when applied correctly is just as useful as centralising things, we as communists (or anarchists) must realise when it is fruitful to use these techniques of organising, I think some things are better done as an open affinity rather than everything being completely centralised; it is actually easier to organise more solidly when people have more freedom to do so in a large number of cases.

Also, most anarchism has moved pretty far away from Proudhon, and only some Bakuninist tendencies remain.

That said, if these Anarchists actually had a political goal, they wouldn't need any serious weaponry, as they're already exerting enough force on the Government to push through new laws. This opportunity isn't being squandered because they lack hardware, it's being squandered because they lack direction.

So you think that anarcho-reformism is the answer to to the Greek workers' problems, well done you cracked it again Uncle.

nuisance

16th December 2009, 16:07

No, assuming I already got all the high-horse Anarchists to admit that they have no goals, will accomplish nothing and have no desire for any betterment of society or indeed anything but infantile displays of blind rage, I'd say this is a great victory.

Of course, anyone dumb enough to fall for the utter fantasy of the Anarchist "movement" could not see this, I fear.
You truly are bizarre. :drool:

IllicitPopsicle

16th December 2009, 17:46

You truly are bizarre. :drool:

Tangent: haha that is a great smiley.

cyu

17th December 2009, 19:54

Excerpts from http://libcom.org/news/wave-strikes-sweeps-greece-17122009

A wave of strikes culminating on Thursdays pan-worker mobilisation has been the response to the scaremongering of the government

After the week of riots came the week of strikes: the multifold strikes that are taking place since Tuesday 15 December and peaked on Thursday 17 with the pan-workers strike called by PAME, the Communist Party Union Front, as wells a dozens of extra-parliamentary parties of the left and first-grade unions forming demos in 58 cities and towns around Greece.

Whereas the garbage collecting strike has been judged for a second time illegal forcing refuse collectors to the streets, large parts of Athens remain plunged in enormous piles of gargabe as refuse workers at the main open refuse dump of the capital have responded to the ban of the previous strike by blockading the gates of the depot, halting 80% of collecting activities. The workers are demanding a reversal of 200 layoffs.

The Centres of Citizen Assistance (KEP), the jewel of efficiency in the greek state’s crown, remain closed for a second day as workers are striking. This in effect freezes all private-public transaction as the KEP are the offices that issues official papers needed for any paperwork.

Kidengarden and Primary school teachers have been on strike since the 16/12. The teachers formed a demo outside the Ministry of Education... The general union of teachers of all grades joined the strike on Thursday.

Taxi drivers have gone on strike in Athens after one of their coleagues was arrested for carrying two sans-papier immigrants. The taxi drivers are demanding the abolition of the law that demands taxi drivers to ask for papers from immigrants that ride on their vehicles, and the immediate release of their colleague.

All hospital doctors across the country have gone on strike on Thursday and all intensive care units remain closed.

the Mechanics Union of the Merchant Fleet has gone on a “warning strike” on Thursday

Geologists, designers and mechanics have also joined the strike demanding that “we do not pay their crisis”

All media have gone on a 24h strike unil Friday morning demanding the end of the “hostage status” of contract workers, free information sharing emancipated from commodification, and the abolition of all laws infirnging social security. As a result there are no news broadcasts on radio TV or the internet. Moreover workers of ERT3 the Salonica based state channel are accusing their directors of going against union decisions and sharing riot footage with the police.

In Athens, an effort by the extreme-right parliamentary party LAOS to set up a racist local committee with the purpose to purge African immigrants from Amerikis Square was countered when triple the number of antiracists and antifascists responded to the call.

In Salonica, an initiative of lawyers has sued the government for police arbitrariness on the 6th and 7th of December: illegal preventive arrests, illegal fingerprinting and breaching of the university asylum. A member of the directorate of the lawyers association of Salonica has declared that all sueing lawyers have been eyewitnesses to the police illegal actions which are in breach of the constitution that forbids the outlawing or inhibition of protest marches and demos. No permit is needed in greece to form a demo or a protest march. Fingerprinting of detainees is allowed according to a law of the junta and is more and more resisted by protesters.

The border tolls of Euzone in Kilkis remain close due to blokades by farmers

the credibility of the greek police has been once again shaken by a poll that revealed than almost 60% of officers consider quiting their jobs if they have to wear insignia with their number or name while on duty

Strikers have occipied the broadcasting headquarters of ERT3, the Salonica state channel. The media strikers interrupted the news broadcast of the scabs reading an announcement condemning breaking the strike. ERT3 is the only national channel that has broken the strike broadcasting news bulletins. Other strikers simultaneously occupied the Salonica editors association officers of the city for not participating in the strike.