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heiss93
6th December 2009, 01:32
This was composed by the atheist scholar Dennis McKinsey:

LENIN DENOUNCES TROTSKY
http://users.ameritech.net/klomckin/HomePage.html
[10 POSTINGS]

One need only read all 45 volumes of Lenin’s Collected Works as well as some of his other writings to see that he often criticized and vehemently denounced Trotsky. Those who seem to think Trotsky was the proper carrier of Lenin’s torch definitely need to read the following 10 postings in this regard. But first we should note Lenin’s compliments of Stalin.

A few noteworthy instances are the following.

In a 1913 article in the Social Democrat entitled The National Programme of the R.S.D.L.P. Lenin stated,
“Why and how the national question has, at the present time, been bought to the fore...is shown in detail in the resolution itself. There is hardly any need to dwell on this in view of the clarity of the situation. This situation and the fundamentals of a national programme for Social-Democracy have recently been dealt with in Marxist theoretical literature (the most prominent place being taken by Stalin’s article.” He is referring to the writing by Stalin entitled Marxism and the National Question.


At the 11th Congress of the R.C.P. (B) in 1922 Lenin was more flattering toward Stalin when he said, “It is terribly difficult to do this; we lack the men! But Preobrazhensky comes along and airily says that Stalin has jobs in two Commissariats. Who among us has not sinned in this way? who has not undertaking several duties at once? And how can we do otherwise? What can we do to preserve the Nationalities; to handle all the Turkestan, Caucasian, and other questions? These are all political questions! They have to be settled. These are questions that have engaged the attention of European states for hundreds of years, and only an infinitesimal number of them have been settled in democratic republics. We are settling them; and we need a man to whom the representatives of any of these nations can go and discuss their difficulties in all detail. Where can we find such a man? I don’t think Comrade Preobrazhensky could suggest any better candidate than Comrade Stalin.
Lenin’s Collected Works, Vol. 33, page 315

In a February 1913 letter to Gorky Lenin said in regard to Stalin, “We have a marvellous Georgian who has sat down to write a big article for Prosveshcheniye, for which he has collected all the Austrian and other materials.”
Lenin’s Collected Works, Vol. 35, page 84.


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NOW WE CAN MOVE ON TO THE FIRST POST

LENIN DENOUNCES TROTSKY

POST #1

It is very important to note that the following statements about Trotsky’s ideas, tactics, and personality were made by Lenin, not Stalin.

At the Second Congress of the R.S.D.L.P in 1903 Lenin said in the Third Speech in the Discussion on the Agrarian Programme,
“Therein lies the fundamental difference between us and the liberals, whose talk about changes and reforms ‘pollutes’ the minds of the people. If we were to set forth in detail all the demands for the abolition of serf-ownership, we should fill whole volumes. That is why we mention only the more important forms and varieties of serfdom, and leave it to our committees in the various localities to draw up and advance their particular demands in development of the general programme. Trotsky’s remark to the effect that we cannot concern ourselves with local demand is wrong, for the question...is not only a local one.”

At the same Congress Lenin made an extremely important and farsighted comment with respect to Trotsky’s theoretical wisdom. He stated,
“To come to the main subject, I must say that Comrade Trotsky has completely misunderstood Comrade Plekhanov’s fundamental idea, and his arguments have therefore evaded the gist of the matter. He has spoken of intellectuals and workers, of the class point of view and of the mass movement, but he has failed to notice a basic question: does my formulation narrow or expand the concept of a Party member? If he had asked himself that question, he would have easily have seen that my formulation narrows this concept, while Martov’s expands it, for (to use Martov’s own correct expression) what distinguishes his concept is its ‘elasticity.’ And in the period of Party life that we are now passing through it is just this ‘elasticity’ that undoubtedly opens the door to all elements of confusion, vacillation, and opportunism. To refute this simple and obvious conclusion it has to be proved that there are no such elements; but it has not even occurred to Comrade Trotsky to do that. Nor can that be proved, for everyone knows that such elements exist in plenty, and they are to be found in the working class too....
Comrade Trotsky completely misinterpreted the main idea of my book, What Is To Be Done? when he spoke about the Party not being a conspiratorial organization. He forgot that in my book I propose a number of various types of organizations, from the most secret and most exclusive to comparatively broad and ‘loose’ organizations. He forgot that the Party must be only the vanguard, the leader of the vast masses of the working class, the whole (or nearly the whole) of which works ‘under the control and direction’ of the Party organizations, but the whole of which does not and should not belong to a ‘party.’ Now let us see what conclusions Comrade Trotsky arrives at in consequence of his fundamental mistake. He had told us here that if rank after rank of workers were arrested, and all the workers were to declare that they did not belong to the Party, our Party would be a strange one indeed! Is it not the other way round? Is it not Comrade Trotsky’s argument that is strange? He regards as something sad that which a revolutionary with any experience at all would only rejoice at. If hundreds and thousands of workers who were arrested for taking part in strikes and demonstrations did not prove to be members of Party organizations, it would only show that we have good organizations, and that we are fulfilling our task of keeping a more or less limited circle of leaders secret and drawing the broadest possible masses into the movement.”

In an article written in 1905 entitled “Social-Democracy and the Provisional Revolutionary Government” Lenin spoke of Parvus and said,
“He openly advocated (unfortunately, together with the windbag Trotsky in a foreward to the latter’s bombastic pamphlet ‘Before the Ninth of January’) the idea of the revolutionary-democratic dictatorship, the idea that it was the duty of Social-Democrats to take part in the provisional revolutionary government after the overthrow of the autocracy.”

Later in the same article Lenin stated,
“It would be extremely harmful to entertain any illusions on this score. If that windbag Trotsky now writes (unfortunately, side by side with Parvus) that a Father Gapon could appear only once,’ that ‘there is no room for a second Gapon,’ he does so simply because he is a windbag. If there were no room in Russia for a second Gapon, there would be no room for a truly ‘great’ consummated democratic revolution.”

In a 1904 letter to Stasova, Lengnik, and others Lenin stated,
A new pamphlet by Trotsky came out recently, under the editorship of *Iskra*, as was announced. This makes it the “Credo” as it were of the new Iskra. The pamphlet is a pack of brazen lies, a distortion of the facts.... The pamphlet is a slap in the face both for the present Editorial Board of the C.O. and for all Party workers. Reading a pamphlet of this kind you can see clearly that the “Minority” has indulged in so much lying and falsehood that it will be incapable of producing anything viable....”

In a 1905 article entitled “Wrathful Impotence” Lenin stated,
‘We shall remind the reader that even Mr. Struve, who has often voiced sympathy in principle with Trotsky, Starover, Akimov, and Martynov, and with the new-Iskra trends in general and the new-Iskra Conference in particular--even Mr. Struve was in his time obliged to acknowledge that their stand is not quite a correct one, or rather quite an incorrect one.”

At the 1907 Fifth Congress of the R.S.D.L.P Lenin stated,
“A few words about Trotsky. He spoke on behalf of the ‘Centre,’ and expressed the views of the Bund. He fulminated against us for introducing our ‘unacceptable’ resolution. He threatened an outright split, the withdrawal of the Duma group, which is supposedly offended by our resolution. I emphasize these words. I urge you to reread our resolution.... When Trotsky stated: ‘Your unacceptable resolution prevents your right ideas being put into effect,’ I called out to him: ‘Give us your resolution!’ Trotsky replied: ‘No first withdraw yours.’ A fine position indeed for the ‘Centre’ to take, isn’t it? Because of our (in Trotsky’s opinion) mistake (‘tactlessness’) he punishes the whole Party.... Why did you not get your resolution passed, we shall be asked in the localities. Because the Centre (for whom Trotsky was speaking) took umbrage at it, and in a huff refused to set forth its own principles! That is a position based not on principle, but on the Centre’s lack of principle.”

Speaking at the same Congress Lenin objected to Trotsky’s amendments to the Bolshevik resolution on the attitude towards bourgeois parties by saying,
“It must be agreed that Trotsky’s amendment is not Menshevik, that it expresses the ‘very same,’ that is, bolshevik, idea. But Trotsky has expressed this idea in a way that is scarcely better (than the Menshevik--Ed.).... Trotsky’s insertion is redundant, for we are not fishing for unique cases in the resolution, but are laying down the basic line of Social-Democracy in the bourgeois Russian revolution.”

While later discussing the same issue (the attitude the party should have toward bourgeois parties) Lenin said,
“The question of the attitude of Social-Democracy towards bourgeois parties is one of those known as ‘general’ or ‘theoretical’ questions, i.e., such that are not directly connected with any definite practical task confronting the Party at a given moment. At theLondon Congress of the R.S.D.L.P, the Mensheviks and the Bundists conducted a fierce struggle against the inclusion of such questions in the agenda, and they were, unfortunately, supported in this by Trotsky, who does not belong to either side. The opportunistic wing of our Party (notice that that is the group with which Trotsky allied himself--Ed.) like that of other Social-Democratic parties, defended a ‘business-like’ or ‘practical’ agenda for the Congress. They shied away from ‘broad and general’ questions. They forgot that in the final analysis broad, principled politics are the only real, practical politics. They forgot that anybody who tackles partial problems without having previously settled general problems, will inevitably and at every step ‘come up against’ those general problems without himself realizing it. To come up against them blindly in every individual case means to doom one’s politics to the worst vacillation and lack of principle.”
And it is quite clear to which philosophy Trotsky adhered.


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LENIN DENOUNCES TROTSKY
POST #2

Our list of statements about Trotsky by Lenin continues:

In 1909 Lenin wrote an article entitled “The Aim of the Proletarian Struggle in our Revolution” and said the following,
“As for Trotsky, whom Comrade Martov has involved in the controversy of third parties which he has organized...we positively cannot go into a full examination of his views here. A separate article of considerable length would be needed for this. By just touching upon Trotsky’s mistaken views, and quoting scraps of them, Comrade Martov only sows confusion in the mind of the reader.... Trotsky’s major mistake is that he ignores the bourgeois character of the revolution and has no clear conception of the transition from this revolution to the socialist revolution. This major mistake leads to those mistakes on side issues which Comrade Martov repeats when he quotes a couple of them with sympathy and approval. Not to leave matters in the confused state to which Comrade Martov has reduced them by his exposition, we shall at least expose the fallacy of those arguments of Trotsky which have won approval of Comrade Martov.”

Later in the same article Lenin states,
“Trotsky’s second statement quoted by Comrade Martov is wrong too. It is not true that ‘the whole question is, who will determine the government’s policy, who will constitute a homogeneous majority in it,’ and so forth. And it is particularly untrue when Comrade Martov uses it as an argument against the dictatorship of the proletariat and the peasantry. Trotsky himself, in the course of his argument, concedes that ‘representatives of the democratic population will take part’ in the ‘workers’ government,’ i.e., concedes that there will be a government consisting of representatives of the proletariat AND the peasantry.
On what terms the proletariat will take part in the government of the revolution is quite another question, and it is quite likely that on this question the Bolsheviks will disagree not only with Trotsky, but also with the Polish Social-Democrats.”
Notice how Lenin does not consider Trotsky to be a bolshevik.

And finally, Lenin also states in the same article,
“In any case, Comrade Martov’s conclusion that the conference agreed with Trotsky, of all people, on the question of the relations between the proletariat and the peasantry in the struggle for power is an amazing contradiction of the facts, is an attempt to read into a word a meaning that was never discussed, not mentioned, and not even thought of at the conference.”

In 1910 Lenin wrote several articles in which he said the following:
Article= “Faction of Supporter of Otzovism and God-Building” in which he said,
“The ‘point’ was that the Mensheviks (through the mouth of Trotsky in 1903-04) had to declare: the old Iskra and the new ones are poles apart.”

Article= “Notes of a Publicist” in which he said,
“With touching unanimity the liquidators and the otzovists are abusing the Bolsheviks up hill and down dale. The Bolsheviks are to blame, the Bolshevik Centre is to blame.... But the strongest abuse from Axelrod and Alexinsky only serves to screen their complete failure to understand the meaning and importance of Party unity. Trotsky’s resolution only differs outwardly from the ‘effusions’ of Axelrod and Alexinsky. It is drafted very ‘cautiously’ and lays claim to ‘above faction’ fairness. But what is its meaning? The ‘Bolshevik leaders’ are to blame for everything--this is the same ‘philosophy of history’ as that of Axelrod and Alexinsky....
This question needs only to be put for one to see how hollow are the eloquent phrases in Trotsky’s resolution, to see how in reality they serve to defend the very position held by Axelrod and Co., and Alexinsky and Co.... In the very first words of his resolution Trotsky expressed the full spirit of the worst kind of conciliation, “conciliation” in inverted commas, or a sectarian and philistine conciliation....
It is in this that the enormous difference lies between real partyism, which consists in purging the Party of liquidationism and otzovism, and the‘conciliation’ of Trotsky and Co., which actually renders the most faithful service to the liquidators and otzovists, and is therefore *an evil* that is all the more dangerous to the Party the more cunningly, artfully and rhetorically it cloaks itself with professedly pro-Party, professedly anti-factional declamations.”
Lenin’s Collected Works, Vol. 16, pages 209-211

Later Lenin stated, “The draft of this resolution was submitted to the Central Committee by myself, and the clause in question was altered by the plenum itself after the commission had finished its work; it was altered on the motion of Trotsky, against whom I fought without success.”
Ibid. page 215

And this was later followed by,
“Here you have the material--little, but characteristic material--which makes it clear how empty Trotsky’s and Yonov’s phrases are.”

Referring to Trotsky’s stance while discussing liquidationism Lenin says,
“Of this we shall speak further on, where it be our task to demonstrate the utter superficiality of the view taken by Trotsky....”

In another stinging indictment in the same article Lenin says,
“Hence the ‘conciliatory’ efforts of Trotsky and Yonov are not ridiculous and miserable. These efforts can only be explained by a complete failure to understand what is taking place. They are harmless efforts now, for there is no one behind them except the sectarian diplomats abroad, except ignorance and lack of intelligence in some out-of-the-way places.”

Continuing in the same vein, Lenin states,
“The heinous crime of *spineless ‘conciliators’* like Yonov and Trotsky, who defend or justify these people, is that they are causing their ruin by making them more dependent on liquidationism....
That this position of Yonov and Trotsky is wrong should have been obvious to them for the simple reason that it is refuted by facts.”

In an article entitled “How certain Social-Democrats Inform the International About the State of Affairs in the R.S.D.L.P.” Lenin stated,
“Yes, it is the ‘non-factional’ Comrade Trotsky, who has no compunction about openly advertising his faction’s propaganda sheet.”

In an article written in 1910 entitled “An Open Letter to All Pro-Party Social-Democrats” Lenin said about Trotsky,
“If Trotsky and similar advocates of the liquidators and otzovists declare this rapprochement ‘devoid of political content,’ such speeches testify only to Trotsky’s *entire lack of principle*, the real hostility of his policy to the policy of the actual (and not merely confined to promises) abolition of factions.”


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LENIN DENOUNCES TROTSKY
POST #3

Our list of denunciations of Trotsky by Lenin continues:

In a 1911 letter “To the Central Committee” Lenin said,
“We resume our freedom of struggle against the liberals and *anarchists*, who are being encouraged by the leader of the ‘conciliators,’ Trotsky. The question of the money is for us a secondary matter, although of course we do not intend to hand over the money of the faction to the bloc of liquidators+anarchists+Trotsky, while in no way renouncing our right to expose before the international Social-Democratic movement this bloc, its financial ‘basis’ (the notorious Vperyodist ‘funds’ safeguarded from exposure by Trotsky and the Golosists).”

Later Lenin says,
“There has been a full development of what was already outlined quite clearly at the plenum (for instance, *the defence of the anarchist school, by Trotsky* + the Golosists). The bloc of liberals and anarchists with the aid of the conciliators is shamelessly destroying the remnants of the Party from outside and helping to demoralize it from within. The formalistic game of ‘inviting’ the Golosists and Trotskyists on to the central bodies is finally reducing to impotence the already weakened pro-Party elements.”


In a 1911 article entitled “Historical Meaning of Inner-Party Struggle in Russia” Lenin commented,
“The theory that the struggle between Bolshevism and Menshevism is a struggle for influence over an immature proletariat is not a new one. We have been encountering it since 1905 in innumerable books, pamphlets, and articles in the liberal press. Martov and Trotsky are putting before the German comrades *liberal views with a Marxist coating*....”
Trotsky declares: ‘It is an illusion’ to imagine that Menshevism and Bolshevism ‘have struck deep roots in the depths of the proletariat.’ This is a specimen of the resonant but empty phrases of which our Trotsky is a master. The roots of the divergence between the Mensheviks and the Bolsheviks lie, not in the ‘depths of the proletariat,’ but in the economic content of the Russian revolution. By ignoring this content, Martov and Trotsky have deprived themselves of the possibility of understanding the historical meaning of the inner-Party struggle in Russia.”

Later in the same article Lenin states,
“For the same reason Trotsky’s argument that splits in the International Social-Democratic movement are caused by the ‘process of adaptation of the social-revolutionary class to the limited (narrow) conditions of parliamentarism,’ while in the Russian Social-Democratic movement they are caused by the adaptation of the intelligentsia to the proletariat, is *absolutely false*.
Trotsky writes.... This truly ‘unrestrained’ phrase-mongering is merely the ‘ideological shadow’ of liberalism. Both Martov and Trotsky mix up different historical periods and compare Russia, which is going through her bourgeois revolution, with Europe, where these revolutions were completed long ago.”

Subsequently Lenin says,
“As regards boycotting the trade unions and the local self-government bodies, what Trotsky says is *absolutely untrue*. It is equally untrue to say that boycottism runs through the whole history of Bolshevism.... *Trotsky distorts Bolshevism*, because he has never been able to form any definite views on the role of the proletariat in the Russian bourgeois revolution.”

In the same article Lenin said regarding Trotsky,
“It is not true. And this untruth expresses, firstly, *Trotsky’s utter lack of theoretical understanding*. Trotsky has absolutely failed to understand why the plenum described both liquidationism and otzovism as a ‘manifestation of bourgeois influence on the proletariat’.
Secondly, in practice, this untruth expresses the ‘policy’ of advertisement pursued by Trotsky’s faction. That Trotsky’s venture is an attempt to create a faction is now obvious to all, since Trotsky has removed the Central Committee’s representative from Pravda. In advertising his faction Trotsky does not hesitate to tell the Germans that the Party is falling to pieces, that both factions are falling to pieces and that he, Trotsky, alone, is saving the situation. Actually, we all see now--and the latest resolution adopted by the Trotskyists in the name of the Vienna Club, on November 26, 1910 proves this quite conclusively--that *Trotsky enjoys the confidence exclusively of the liquidators and the Vperyodists*.
The extent of *Trotsky’s shamelessness* in belittling the Party and exalting himself before the Germans is shown, for instance, by the following. Trotsky writes that the ‘working masses’ in Russia consider that the ‘Social-Democratic Party stands outside their circle’ and he talks of ‘Social-Democrats without Social-Democracy.
How could one expect Mr. Potresov and his friends to refrain from bestowing kisses on Trotsky for such statements?
But these statements are refuted not only by the entire history of the revolution, but even by the results of the elections to the Third Duma from the workers’ curia....
That is what Trotsky writes. But the facts are as follows....
When Trotsky gives the German comrades a detailed account of the stupidity of ‘otzovism’ and describes this trend as a ‘crystallization’ of the boycottism characteristic of Bolshevism as a whole...the German reader certainly gets no idea how much subtle *perfidy* there is in such an exposition. Trotsky’s Jesuitical ‘reservation’ consists in omitting a small, very small ‘detail.’ He ‘forgot’ to mention that at an official meeting of its representatives held as far back as the spring of 1909, the Bolshevik faction repudiated and expelled the otzovists. But it is just this ‘detail’ that is inconvenient for Trotsky, who wants to talk of the ‘falling to pieces’ of the Bolshevik faction (and then of the Party as well) and not of the falling away of the non-Social-Democratic elements!....
...Trotsky, on the other hand, represents only his own personal vacillations and nothing more. In 1903 he as a Menshevik; he abandoned Menshevism in 1904, returned to the Mensheviks in 1905 and merely flaunted ultra- revolutionary phrases; in 1906 he left them again; at the end of 1906 he advocated electoral agreements with the Cadets (i.e., he was in once more with the Mensheviks); and the spring of 1907, at the London Congress, he said that he differed from Rosa Luxemburg on “individual shades of ideas rather than on political tendencies”. One day Trotsky *plagiarizes* from the ideological stock-in-trade of one faction; the next day he plagiarizes from that of another, and therefore declares himself to be standing above both factions. In theory Trotsky is on no point in agreement with either the liquidators or the otzovists, but in actual practice he is in entire agreement with both the Golosists and the Vperyodists.
Therefore, when Trotsky tells the German comrades that he represents the ‘general Party tendency,’ I am obliged to declare that Trotsky represents only his own faction and enjoys a certain amount of confidence exclusively among the otzovists and the liquidators. The following facts prove the correctness of my statement.”

After listing his facts and referring to ‘Trotsky’s anti-Party policy’ Lenin states,
“Let the readers now judge for themselves whether Trotsky represents a ‘general Party,’ or a ‘general anti-Party’ trend in Russian Social-Democracy.”


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LENIN DENOUNCES TROTSKY
POST #4

Our on-going expose of Lenin’s Opinion of Trotsky continues:

In an article entitled “Letter to the Russian Collegium of the Central Committee of the R.S.D.L.P. Lenin attacked Trotsky by saying,
“Trotsky’s call for ‘friendly’ collaboration by the Party with the Golos and Vperyod groups is *disgusting hypocrisy and phrase-mongering*. Everybody is aware that for the whole year since the Plenary Meeting the Golos and Vperyod groups have worked in a ‘friendly’ manner against the Party (and were secretly supported by Trotsky). Actually, it is only the Bolsheviks and Plekhanov’s group who have for a whole year carried out friendly Party work in the Central Organ. Trotsky’s attacks on the bloc of Bolsheviks and Plekhanov’s group are not new; what is new is the outcome of his resolution: the Vienna Club (read “Trotsky”) has organized a ‘general Party fund for the purpose of preparing and
convening a conference of the RSDLP
This indeed is new. It is a direct step towards a split. It is *a clear violation of Party legality* and the start of an adventure in which Trotsky will come to grief. This is obviously a split.... It is quite possible and probable that ‘certain’ Vperyod ‘funds’ will be made available to Trotsky. You will appreciate that this will only stress the adventurist character of his undertaking.
It is clear that this undertaking violates Party legality, since not a word is said about the Central Committee, which alone can call the conference. In addition, Trotsky, having ousted the C.C. representative on Pravda in August 1910, himself *lost all trace of legality*, converting Pravda from an organ supported by the representative of the C.C. into a purely factional organ....
Taking advantage of this, ‘violation of legality,’ Trotsky seeks an organisational split, creating ‘his own’ fund for ‘his own’ conference.”

After this critique of Trotsky, Lenin really comes down solid on him by stating,
“You will understand why I call Trotsky’s move an adventure; it is an adventure in every respect. It is an adventure in the ideological sense. *Trotsky groups all the enemies of Marxism*, he unites Potresov and Maximov, who detest the ‘Lenin-Plekhanov’ bloc, as they like to call it. *Trotsky unites all to whom ideological decay is dear*, *all who are not
concerned with the defence of Marxism*; *all philistines* who do not understand the reasons for the struggle and who do not wish to learn, think, and discover the ideological roots of the divergence of views. At this time of confusion, disintegration, and wavering it is easy for Trotsky to become the ‘hero of the hour’ and *gather all the shabby elements around himself*. The more openly this attempt is made, the more spectacular will be the defeat.
It is an adventure in the party-political sense. At present everything goes to show that the real unity of the Social-Democratic Party is possible only on the basis of a sincere and unswerving repudiation of liquidationism and otzovism. It is clear that Potresov and the Vperyod group have renounced neither the one nor the other. Trotsky unites them, basely deceiving himself, *deceiving the Party, and deceiving the proletariat*. In reality, Trotsky will achieve nothing more than the strengthening of Potresov’s and Maximov’s anti-Party groups. The collapse of this adventure is inevitable.”

And Lenin concludes by saying,
“Three slogans bring out the essence of the present situation within the Party:...
3. Struggle against the splitting tactics and the *unprincipled adventurism of Trotsky* in banding Potresov and Maximov against Social-Democracy.”

In a 1910 article entitled “The State of Affairs in the Party” Lenin again attacks Trotsky’s anti-Party stance by saying,
“...Trotsky’s statement of November 26, 1910...completely distorts the essence of the matter. Martov’s article and Trotsky’s resolution conceal definite practical actions--actions directed against the Party....
Trotsky’s resolution, which calls upon organizations inthe localities to prepare for a “general Party conference” independent of, and against, the Central Committee, expresses the very aim of the Golos group--to destroy the central bodies so detested by the liquidators, and with them, the Party as an organization. It is not enough to lay bare the anti-Party activities of Golos and Trotsky; they must be fought.

In the same article Lenin states,
“When Trotsky, in referring to the Meeting’s decisions on Pravda, fails to mention this fact, all one can say about it is that *he is deceiving the workers*. And this deception on the part of Trotsky is all the more *malicious*, since in August Trotsky removed the representative of the Central Committee from Pravda....
Therefore, we declare, in the name of the Party as a whole, that Trotsky is pursuing an anti-Party policy....
Trotsky is trying again and again to evade the question by passing it over in silence or by phrase-mongering; *for he is concerned to keep the readers and the Party ignorant of the truth*, namely that Potresov’s group, the group of sixteen, are absolutely independent of the Party, represent expressly distinct factions, are not only doing nothing to revive the illegal organization, but are obstructing its revival, and are not pursuing any Social-Democratic tactics. *Trotsky is concerned with keeping the Party ignorant of the truth*, namely, that the Golos group represent a faction abroad, similarly separated from the Party, and that they actually render service to the liquidators in Russia....
Trotsky maintains silence on this undeniable truth, because *the truth is detrimental to the real aims of his policy*. The real aims, however, are becoming clearer and more obvious even to the least far-sighted Party members. They are” an anti-Party block of the Potresovs with the Vperyod group--a bloc which Trotsky supports and is organizing.”

Lenin later states,
“We must again explain the fundamentals of Marxism to these masses; the defence of Marxist theory is again on the order of the day. When Trotsky declares that the rapprochement between the pro-Party Mensheviks and the Bolsheviks is ‘devoid of political content’ and ‘unstable,’ he is thereby merely revealing *the depths of his own ignorance*, he is thereby demonstrating *his own complete emptiness*.”

Lenin later follows this up with,
“...Trotsky, who is in the habit of joining any group that happens to be in the majority at the moment....
Trotsky’s policy is adventurism in the organisational sense; for, as we have already pointed out, it violates Party legality....”


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LENIN DENOUNCES TROTSKY
POST #5

Our continuing revelation of Lenin’s Opinion of Trotsky proceeds apace:

In a 1911 article entitled “Judas Trotsky’s Blush of Shame” Lenin states,
“At the Plenary Meeting *Judas Trotsky* made a big show of fighting liquidationism and otzovism. He vowed and swore that he was true to the Party. He was given a subsidy....
Judas expelled the representative of the Central Committee from Pravda and began to write liquidationist articles....
And it is this Judas who beats his breast and loudly professes his loyalty to the Party, claiming that he did not grovel before the Vperyod group and the liquidators.
Such is Judas Trotsky’s blush of shame.”

In a leaflet published in 1911 entitled “Resolution Adopted by the Second Paris Group of the R.S.D.L.P. on the State of Affairs in the Party” Lenin addressed this same theme by saying,
“People like Trotsky, with his inflated phrases about the R.S.D.L.P. and his *toadying* to the liquidators, who have nothing in common with the R.S.D.L.P., today represent ‘*the prevalent disease*.’ They are trying to build up a career for themselves by cheap sermons about ‘agreement’--agreement with all and sundry, right down to Mr. Potresov and the otzovists.... Actually they preach surrender to the liquidators who are building a Stolypin labour party.”

And in the 1911 article entitled “From the Camp of the Stolypin Labour Party” Lenin revisits this issue by saying,
“Hence it is clear that Trotsky and the ‘Trotskyites and conciliators’ like him are *more pernicious than any liquidators*; the convinced liquidators state their views bluntly, and it is easy for the workers to detect where they are wrong, whereas the *Trotskys deceive the workers*, *cover up the evil*, and make it impossible to expose the evil and to remedy it. *Whoever supports Trotsky’s puny group supports a policy of lying and of deceiving the workers*, a policy of shielding the liquidators. Full freedom of action for Potresov and Co. in Russia, and the shielding of their deeds by ‘revolutionary’ phrase-mongering abroad--there you have the essence of the policy of ‘Trotskyism’.”


In an article entitled “The New Faction of Conciliators, or the Virtuous” Lenin stated,
Trotsky expressed conciliationism more consistently than anyone else. He was probably the only one who attempted to give the trend a theoretical foundation, namely: factions and factionalism express the struggle of the intelligentsia “for influence over the immature proletariat”.... For a long time now, Trotsky--who at one moment has wavered more to the side of the Bolsheviks and at another more to that of the Mensheviks--has been persistently carrying on propaganda for an agreement (or compromise) between all and sundry factions.
“But after it, every since the spring of 1910 Trotsky has been *deceiving the workers in a most unprincipled and shameless manner* by assuring them that the obstacles to unity were principally (if not wholly) of an organizational nature. This deceit is being continued in 1911 by the Paris conciliators; for to assert now that they organizational questions occupy the first place is sheer mockery of the truth. In reality, it is by no means the organizational question that is now in the forefront, but the question of the entire programme, the entire tactics and the whole character of the Party.... The conciliators call themselves Bolsheviks, in order to repeat, a year and a half later, *Trotsky’s errors* which the Bolsheviks had exposed. Well, is this not an abuse of established Party titles? Are we not obliged, after this, to let all and sundry know that the conciliators are not Bolsheviks at all, that they have nothing in common with Bolshevism, that they are simply inconsistent Trotskyites?
The only difference between Trotsky and the conciliators in Paris is that the latter regard Trotsky as a factionalist and themselves as non-factionalist, whereas Trotsky holds the opposite view....
Trotsky provides us with an abundance of instances of scheming to establish unprincipled “unity....
Trotsky was merely revealing the plan of the liquidators whom he serves faithfully....”

In a 1911 article on the same theme entitled “Trotsky’s Diplomacy and a certain Party Platform,” Lenin states,
“Trotsky’s particular task is to conceal liquidationism by throwing dust in the eyes of the workers.
It is impossible to argue with Trotsky on the merits of the issue, because *Trotsky holds no views whatever*. We can and should argue with confirmed liquidators and otzovists;; but it is no use arguing with a man whose game is to hide errors of both these trends; in his case the thing to do is to expose him as a *diplomat of the smallest caliber*.”

In an article entitled “Fundamental Problems of the Election Campaign” Lenin states,
“There is nothing more repugnant to the spirit of Marxism than phrase-mongering....”

And later on he states,
“But there is no point in imitating Trotsky’s inflated phrases.”

In a 1912 pamphlet entitled “The Present Situation in the R.S.D.L.P. Lenin stated,“
This is incredible, yet it is a fact. It will be useful for the Russian workers to know how *Trotsky and Co. are misleading our foreign comrades*.”

In another 1912 pamphlet entitled “Can the Slogan ‘Freedom of Association’ Serve as a Basis for the Working-Class Movement Today?” Lenin responds by saying,
“In the legal press, the liquidators headed by Trotsky argue that it can. They are doing all in their power to distort the true character of the workers’ movement. But those are hopeless efforts. The drowning of the liquidators are clutching at a straw to rescue their unjust cause.”

In a 1912 pamphlet entitled “Platform of the Reformists and the Platform of the Revolutionary Social-Democrats” Lenin stated,
“Look at the platform of the liquidators. Its liquidationist essence is artfully concealed by Trotsky’s revolutionary phrases.”
“The revolutionary Social-Democrats have given their answer to these questions, which are more interesting and important than the *philistine-Trotskyist* attitude of uncertainty; will there be a revolution or not, who can tell?....
Those, however, who preach to the masses their *vulgar, intellectualist, Bundist-Trotskyist scepticism*--’we don’t know whether there will be a revolution or not, but the current issue is reforms’--are already *corrupting the masses, preaching liberal utopias to them*.”

In the 1912 pamphlet entitled “The Illegal Party and Legal Work” Lenin again referred to Trotsky by saying,
“We have studied the ideas of liberal labour policy attired in Levitsky’s everyday clothes; it is not difficult to recognize them in *Trotsky’s gaudy apparel* as well.”

In a letter to the Editor of Pravda in 1912 Lenin said,
“I advise you to reply to Trotsky throught the post: ‘To Trotsky. We shall not reply to disruptive and slanderous letters.’ Trotsky’s dirty campaign against Pravda is one mass of lies and slander. The well-known Marxist and follower of Plekhanov, Rothstein, has written to us that he received Trotsky’s slanders and replied to him: I cannot complain of the Petersburg Pravda in any way. But this intriguer and liquidator goes onlying, right and left.
P.S. It would be still better to reply in this way to Trotsky through the post: ‘To Trotsky. You are wasting your time sending us disruptive and slanderous letters....”

In a 1913 article in Pravda Lenin really blistered Trotsky on the question of Party unity by saying,
“It is amazing that after the question has been posed so clearly and squarely we come across Trotsky’s old, pompous but perfectly meaningless phrases in Luch No. 27 (113). Not a word on the substance of the matter! *Not the slightest attempt to cite precise facts and analyze them thoroughly!* Not a hint of the real terms of unity! Empty exclamations, high-flown words, and haughty sallies against opponents whom the author does not name, and impressively important assurances--that is *Trotsky’s total stock-in-trade*.
That won’t do gentlemen.... The workers will not be intimidated or coaxed. They themselves will compare Luch and Pravda...and simply shrug off Trotsky’s verbiage....
You cannot satisfy the workers with mere phrases, no matter how ‘conciliatory’ or honeyed.
‘Our historic factions, Bolshevism and Menshevism, are purely intellectualist formations in origin,’ wrote Trotsky. This is the *repetition of a liberal tale*....
It is to the advantage of the liberals to pretend that this fundamental basis of the difference was introduced by ‘intellectuals.’ But *Trotsky merely disgraces himself by echoing a liberal tale*.

In a 1913 article entitled “Notes of a Publicist” Lenin states,
“Trotsky, doing faithful service to liquidators, assured himself and the naive ‘Europeans’ (lovers of Asiatic scandal-mongering) that the liquidators are ‘stronger’ in the legal movement. And this lie, too, is refuted by the facts.”

Lenin again blasted Trotsky in an article published in 1914 entitled “Break-up of the ‘August’ Bloc” by stating,
“Trotsky, however, has never had any ‘physiognomy’ at all; *the only thing he does have is a habit of changing sides*, of *skipping from the liberals to the Marxists and back again*, of mouthing scraps of catchwords and bombastic parrot phrases....
Actually, under cover of high-sounding, empty, and obscure phrases that confuse the non-class-conscious workers, Trotsky is defending the liquidators....
But *the liquidators and Trotsky...are the worst splitters*.”

And in an article entitled “Ideological Struggle in Working-Class Movement” Lenin states,
“People who (like the liquidators and Trotsky) ignore or falsify this twenty years’ history of the ideological struggle in the working-class movement do tremendous harm to the workers.”


************************************************** *************
LENIN DENOUNCES TROTSKY
POST #6

Our ongoing revelation of what Lenin thought of Trotsky proceeds on schedule.

In a 1914 article named “Disruption of Unity” Lenin stated,
“Trotsky’s ‘workers’ journal’ is Trotsky’s journal for workers, as there is not a trace in it of either workers’ initiative, or any connection with working-class organizations....
The question arises: what has ‘chaos’ got to do with it? Everybody knows that *Trotsky is fond of high-sounding and empty phrases*.... If there is any ‘chaos’ anywhere, it is only in the heads of cranks who fail to understand this....
And that fact proves that we right in calling Trotsky a representative of the ‘worst remnants of factionalism’. Although he claims to be non-factional, Trotsky is known to everybody who is in the least familiar with the working-class movement in Russia as the representative of ‘Trotsky’s faction’.
Trotsky, however, possesses no ideological and political definiteness, for his patent for ‘non-factionalism’, as we shall soon see in greater detail,is merely a patent to flit freely to and fro, from one group to another.
To sum up:
(1) Trotsky does not explain, *nor does he understand, the historical significance of the ideological disagreements among the various Marxist trends and groups*, although these disagreements run through the twenty years’ history of Social-Democracy and concern the fundamental questions of the present day (as we shall show later on);
(2) Trotsky fails to understand that the main specific features of group-division are nominal recognition of unity and actual disunity;
(3) Under cover of ‘non-factionalism’ Trotsky is championing the interests of a group abroad which particularly lacks definite principles and has no basis in the working-class movement in Russia.
All that glitters is not gold. *There is much glitter and sound in Trotsky’s phrases, but they are meaningless*....
But joking apart (although joking is the only way of retorting mildly to Trotsky’s insufferable phrase-mongering). ‘Suicide’ is a mere empty phrase, mere ‘Trotskyism’....
If our attitude towards liquidationism is wrong in theory, in principle, then Trotsky should say so straightforwardly, and state definitely, without equivocation, why he thinks it is wrong. But Trotsky has been evading this extremely important point for years....
Trotsky is very fond of using, with the learned air of the expert, *pompous and high-sounding phrases* to explain historical phenomena in a way that is flattering to Trotsky. Since ‘numerous advanced workers’ become ‘active agents’ of a political and Party line which does not conform to Trotsky’s line, Trotsky settles the question unhesitatingly, out of hand: these advanced workers are ‘in a state of utter political bewilderment,’ whereas he, Trotsky, is evidently ‘in a state’ of political firmness and clarity, and keeps to the right line! And this very same Trotsky, beating his breast, fulminates against factionalism, parochialism, and the efforts of intellectuals to impose their will on the workers!”
“Reading things like these, one cannot help asking oneself; *is it from a lunatic asylum that such voices come*?
Trotsky is trying to disrupt the movement and cause a split.

Later in the same article Lenin states,
“Those who accused us of being splitters, of being unwilling or unable to get on with the liquidators, were themselves unable to get on with them. The August bloc proved to be a fiction and broke up.
By concealing this break-up from his readers, *Trotsky is deceiving them*.”

Still later, Lenin confronted a problem I have often encountered by stating,
“*The reason why Trotsky avoids facts and concrete references is because they relentlessly refute all his angry outcries and pompous phrases*.... Is not this weapon borrowed from the arsenal of the period when Trotsky posed in all his splendor before audiences of high-school boys?”

And finally, in the same article Lenin shatters Trotsky, his theory of Permanent Revolution, and his all consuming equivocating, with which I am thoroughly familiar, by saying,
“Trotsky was an ardent Iskrist in 1901-03, and Ryazanov described his role at the Congress of 1903 as ‘Lenin’s cudgel.’ At the end of 1903, Trotsky was an ardent Menshevik, i.e., he deserted from the Iskrists to the Economists. He said that ‘between the old Iskra and the new lies a gulf’. In 1904-05, he deserted the Mensheviks and
occupied a vacillating position, now co-operating with Martynov (the Economist), now proclaiming his **absurdly Left permanent revolution theory**. In 1906-07, he approached the Bolsheviks, and in the spring of 1907 he declared that he was in agreement with Rosa Luxemburg.
In the period of disintegration, after long ‘non-factional’ vacillation, he again went to the right, and in August 1912, he entered into a bloc with the liquidators. He has now deserted them again, although in substance he reiterates their shoddy ideas.”

In another 1914 article entitled “Objective Data on the Strength of Various Trends” Lenin commented,
“One of the greatest, if not the greatest, faults (or crimes against the working class) of the Narodniks and liquidators, as well as of the various groups of intellectuals such as the Vperyodists, Plekhanovites and Trotskyists, is their subjectivism. At every step they try to pass off their desires, their ‘views’, their appraisals of the situation and their ‘plans’, as the will of the workers, the needs of the working-class movement.”

In a article published in 1914 entitled “The Right of Nations to Self-Determination” Lenin stated,
“**The obliging Trotsky is more dangerous than an enemy!** Trotsky could produce no proof, except ‘private conversations” (i.e., simply *gossip, on which Trotsky always subsists*), for classifying ‘Polish Marxists’ in general as supporters of every article by Rosa Luxemburg....
Why did Trotsky withhold these facts from the readers of his journal? Only because it pays him to speculate on fomenting differences between the Polish and the Russian opponents of liquidationism and to *deceive the Russian workers* on the question of the programme.”

And now comes another comment that blows off Trotsky’s doors.
“**Trotsky has never yet held a firm opinion on any important question of Marxism**. He always contrives to worm his way into the cracks of any given difference of opinion, and desert one side for the other. At the present moment he is in the company of the Bundists and the liquidators. And these gentlemen do not stand on ceremony where the Party is concerned.”

In an article first published in 1917 Lenin noted that Trotsky made a number of errors by saying,
“A number of Trotsky’s tactical and organizational errors spring from this fear....”

Still later, Lenin confronted a problem I have often encountered by stating,
“*The reason why Trotsky avoids facts and concrete references is because they relentlessly refute all his angry outcries and pompous phrases*.... Is not this weapon borrowed from the arsenal of the period when Trotsky posed in all his splendor before audiences of high-school boys?” It seems to him that to desire Russia’s defeat means desiring the victory of Germany.... To help people that are unable to think for themselves, the Berne resolution made it clear that in all imperialist countries the proletariat must now desire the defeat of its own government. Bukvoyed and Trotsky preferred to avoid this truth....
*Had Bukvoyed and Trotsky done a little thinking, they would have realized that they have adopted the viewpoint on the war held by governments and the bourgeoisie, i.e., that they cringe to the ‘political methodology of social-patriotism’, to use Trotsky’s pretentious language*.
Whoever is in favour of the slogan of ‘neither victory nor defeat’ [Trotsky] is consciously or unconsciously a chauvinist; at best he is a conciliatory petty bourgeois but in any case he is an enemy to proletarian policy, a partisan of the existing governments, of the present-day ruling classes....
Those who stand for the ‘neither-victory-nor-defeat’ slogan are in fact on the side of the bourgeoisie and the opportunists, for they do not believe in the possibility of international revolutionary action by the working class against their own governments, and do not wish to help develop such action, which, though undoubtedly difficult, is the only task worthy of a proletarian, the only socialist task.”

And in another 1915 article labeled “The State of Affairs in Russian Social-Democracy” Lenin comments,
“Trotsky, who as always entirely disagrees with the social-chauvinists in principle, but agrees with them in everything in practice....”

In the article entitled “Socialism and War” Lenin states,
“In Russia, Trotsky, while rejecting this idea, also defends unity with the opportunist and chauvinist Nasha Zarya group.


************************************************** *************
LENIN DENOUNCES TROTSKY
POST #7

More on Lenin’s Opinion of Trotsky will now be presented.

In 1915 article in the Social Democrat entitled “On the Two Lines in the Revolution” Lenin comments on Trotsky’s failure to realize the importance of the peasantry by saying,
“This task is being wrongly tackled in Nashe Slovo by Trotsky, who is repeating his ‘original’ 1905 theory and refuses to give some thought to the reason why, in the course of ten years, life has been bypassing this splendid theory. From the Bolsheviks Trotsky’s original theory has borrowed their call for a decisive proletarian revolutionary struggle and for the conquest of political power by the proletariat, while from the Mensheviks it has borrowed ‘repudiation’ of the peasantry’s role. The peasantry, he asserts, are divided into strata, have become differentiated; their potential revolutionary role has dwindled more and more; in Russia a ‘national’ revolution is impossible; ‘we are living in the era of imperialism,’ says Trotsky, and ‘imperialism does not contrapose the bourgeois nation to the old regime, but the proletariat to the bourgeois nation.
...The length *Trotsky’s muddled thinking* goes to is evident from his phrase that by their resoluteness the proletariat will attract the ‘non-proletarian popular masses’ as well! Trotsky has not realized that if the proletariat induce the non-proletarian masses to confiscate the landed estates and overthrown the monarchy, then that will be the consummation of the ‘national bourgeois revolution’ in Russia; it will be a revolutionary-democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and the peasantry!.... This is such an obvious truth that not even the thousands of phrases in scores of Trotsky’s Paris articles will ‘refute’ it. *Trotsky is in fact helping the liberal-labour politicians* in Russia, who by ‘repudiation’ of the role of the peasantry understand a refusal to raise up the peasants for the revolution!”

In a 1921 pamphlet entitled “The Trade Unions, the Present Situation and Trotsky’s Mistakes” Lenin drops a whole series of bombs on Trotsky’s theoretical analyses by saying,
“My principal material is Comrade Trotsky’s pamphlet, The Role and Tasks of the Trade Unions. When I compare it with the theses he submitted to the Central Committee, and go over it very carefully, I am amazed at the number of *theoretical mistakes and glaring blunders* it contains. How could anyone starting a big Party discussion on this question produce *such a sorry excuse for a carefully thought out statement*? Let me go over the main points which, I think, contain the original *fundamental theoretical errors*.
Trade unions are not just historically necessary; they are historically inevitable as an organization of the industrial proletariat, and, under the dictatorship of the proletariat, embrace nearly the whole of it. This is basic, but Comrade Trotsky keeps forgetting it; he neither appreciates it nor makes it his point of departure.... Within the system of the dictatorship of the proletariat, the trade unions stand, if I may say so, between the Party and the government. In the transition to socialism the dictatorship of the proletariat is inevitable, but it is not exercised by an organization which takes in all industrial workers. Why not?.... What happens is that the Party, shall we say, absorbs the vanguard of the proletariat, and this vanguard exercises the dictatorship of the proletariat.... But the dictatorship of the proletariat cannot be exercised through an organization embracing the whole of that class, because in all capitalist countries (and not only over here, in one of the most backward) the proletariat is still so divided, so degraded, and so corrupted in parts (by imperialism in some countries) that an organization taking in the whole proletariat cannot directly exercise proletarian dictatorship. It can be exercised only by a vanguard that has absorbed the revolutionary energy of the class.... From this alone it is evident that there is something fundamentally wrong in principle when Comrade Trotsky points, in his first thesis, to ‘ideological confusion’, and speaks of a crisis as existing specifically and particularly in the trade unions.... *It is Trotsky who is in ‘ideological confusion’*, because in this key question of the trade unions’ role, from the standpoint of transition from capitalism to communism, he has lost sight of the fact that we have here a complex arrangement of cogwheels which cannot be a simple one; for the dictatorship of the proletariat cannot be exercised by a mass proletarian organization. It cannot work without a number of ‘transmission belts’ running from the vanguard to the mass of the advanced class, and from the latter to the mass of the working people.
...When I consider the role of the trade unions in production, I find that Trotsky’s basic mistake lies in his always dealing with it ‘in principle,’ as a matter of ‘general principle.’ All his theses are based on ‘general principle,’ an approach which is in itself fundamentally wrong.... In general, Comrade Trotsky’s great mistake, his mistake of principle, lies in the fact that by raising the question of ‘principle’ at this time he is dragging back the Party and the Soviet power. We have, thank heaven, done with principles and have gone on to practical business. We chatted about principles--rather more than we should have--at the Smolny.

Vargha Poralli
6th December 2009, 02:04
Congrats for stating obvious facts - Why did you miss out articles by Trotsky condemning Lenin ?

And can you point to any one Trotskyist group which claims that Trotsky was actual "heir" of Lenin ?

Led Zeppelin
6th December 2009, 02:12
One need only read all 45 volumes of Lenin’s Collected Works as well as some of his other writings to see that he often criticized and vehemently denounced Trotsky.

[...]

But first we should note Lenin’s compliments of Stalin.

....while of course completely ignoring his denunciations of Stalin (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/dec/testamnt/autonomy.htm).

Yeah, top-notch scientific non-biased article you got there. :thumbup:

Seriously, get the fuck out of here with that crap. There's already more than enough of it here.

Weezer
6th December 2009, 02:18
heiss93, I hope you do enjoy helping the further dividing of the socialist movement, and slowing the revolution's progress.

And as Led Zeppelin said , it looks like Lenin wasn't very fond of Glorious Leader, Pimp, and Savior Stalin, either.

btpound
6th December 2009, 08:19
heiss93, I hope you do enjoy helping the further dividing of the socialist movement, and slowing the revolution's progress.

And as Led Zeppelin said , it looks like Lenin wasn't very fond of Glorious Leader, Pimp, and Savior Stalin, either.

how dare heiss93 state facts here! Stop it! Your dividing the movement!

Who cares what lenin thinks anyway?

A.R.Amistad
6th December 2009, 12:09
This completely proves nothing. The 1913 criticism of Trotsky was more of a criticism of Menshevism, which didn't hold water against Trotsky when he became a Bolshevik by 1917. And just because in the early days like in 1922 that he briefly praised Stalin does not mean he was denouncing Trotsky. Lenin was trying to appeal to everyone in the party, and at the time he did not know Stalin very well at all and was largely unaware of his chauvanism. I'm going to include the last testament of Lenin, including a letter he wrote to Stalin, but considering that he and Trotsky, not Stalin, worked together on the Russian Revolution and that they were on extremely good terms, in fact were close friends and comrades, personally since 1917, says a lot.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/dec/testamnt/index.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1923/mar/05.htm

The Ungovernable Farce
6th December 2009, 12:47
Who cares what lenin thinks anyway?
Good question. You might think that materialists might decide whether they like Stalin or Trotsky more by looking at what they actually did and said and what the consequences of their actions were. But no, the infallible writings of the Pope of Marxism, even if he died before the schism between the two really emerged, is obviously a much more reliable guide. Hail the omniscient Lenin!

RHIZOMES
6th December 2009, 13:17
I've always been a bit of a skeptic of the Lenin's Testament argument pulled by a lot of Trotskyists. While I think the book has it's flaws, Another View of Stalin presents a pretty good argument against it imho.

http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node13.html

Andropov
6th December 2009, 15:22
I'm going to include the last testament of Lenin, including a letter he wrote to Stalin, but considering that he and Trotsky, not Stalin, worked together on the Russian Revolution and that they were on extremely good terms, in fact were close friends and comrades, personally since 1917, says a lot.
Not really, in fact it is quite the opposite.

Intelligitimate
6th December 2009, 15:28
I've always been a bit of a skeptic of the Lenin's Testament argument pulled by a lot of Trotskyists. While I think the book has it's flaws, Another View of Stalin presents a pretty good argument against it imho.

http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node13.html

Yes, any actual discussion of the contents of the "will" can't help but make Trotsky look like a slimy opportunist and Stalin look good. Even when Lenin does add negative remarks about Stalin to a post-script, he says we need someone exactly like Stalin, except less rude!

RED DAVE
6th December 2009, 16:53
Yes, any actual discussion of the contents of the "will" can't help but make Trotsky look like a slimy opportunist and Stalin look good. Even when Lenin does add negative remarks about Stalin to a post-script, he says we need someone exactly like Stalin, except less rude!Ahem! The ability of stalinists to lie remains virtually unlimited.

In Lenin's Testament, Trotsky is criticized as having "excessive self-assurance and shown excessive preoccupation with the purely administrative side of the work." Lenin then advocates: "removing Stalin from that post and appointing another man in his stead."


Comrade Stalin, having become Secretary-General, has unlimited authority concentrated in his hands, and I am not sure whether he will always be capable of using that authority with sufficient caution. Comrade Trotsky, on the other hand, as his struggle against the C.C. on the question of the People's Commissariat of Communications has already proved, is distinguished not only by outstanding ability. He is personally perhaps the most capable man in the present C.C., but he has displayed excessive self-assurance and shown excessive preoccupation with the purely administrative side of the work.
Stalin is too rude and this defect, although quite tolerable in our midst and in dealing among us Communists, becomes intolerable in a Secretary-General. That is why I suggest that the comrades think about a way of removing Stalin from that post and appointing another man in his stead who in all other respects differs from Comrade Stalin in having only one advantage, namely, that of being more tolerant, more loyal, more polite and more considerate to the comrades, less capricious, etc. This circumstance may appear to be a negligible detail. But I think that from the standpoint of safeguards against a split and from the standpoint of what I wrote above about the relationship between Stalin and Trotsky it is not a [minor] detail, but it is a detail which can assume decisive importance.(emph. added)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin%27s_Testament

So, Trotsky has "... outstanding ability. "He is personally perhaps the most capable man in the present C.C. ... ." Whereas Stalin needs to be removed from his position on the C.C.

RED DAVE

The Deepest Red
6th December 2009, 17:25
In particular, his founding of the Fourth International and his break from the Third International can be seen as an example of Trotsky's sheer careerist and opportunist motives when he delayed its founding by four months while waiting to see if Moscow would accept him back as a leader.

And what about Stalin's decision to fold the Third International, what do you have to say about that?

RED DAVE
6th December 2009, 18:49
And what about Stalin's decision to fold the Third International, what do you have to say about that?
It was a good move considering that the Comintern was a tool of imperialism in the hands of the bureaucrats.I love it: the head of he bureacracy liquidates the Communist International to free is from the bureaucrats.

i guess De Nial is not only a river in Egypt.

RED DAVE

Pogue
6th December 2009, 19:25
I think Trotskyism is based on a bit more than whether or not Lenin declared that Trotsky was the pure and proper extension of his thought.

RED DAVE
6th December 2009, 20:06
This anti-imperialist action of Stalin's of liquidating the CominternYou have not demonstrated in the least that the opportunistic liquidation of the Comintern by Stalin was "anti-mperialistic. Why don't you start by demonstrating that it was such.


goes to disprove the Trotskyist canard that he represented the bureaucratic interests.You have just assumed your premise to draw a conclusion.


Trotsky, on the other hand, with his lust for power... De Nial is indeed more than a river in Egypt.Yeah, real lust for power. Stalin, on the other hand, was a humble servant of the working class.

You stalinists really slay me. As the working class starts to rise and independent mass movements appear again, it will be interesting to see how you sell out this time.

RED DAVE

The Ungovernable Farce
6th December 2009, 20:44
This anti-imperialist action of Stalin's of liquidating the Comintern goes to disprove the Trotskyist canard that he represented the bureaucratic interests.

Stalinism was also a reign of terror within the bureaucratic class. The terrorism on which this class’s power was based inevitably came to strike the class itself, because this class has no juridical legitimacy, no legally recognized status as an owning class which could be extended to each of its members. Its ownership has to be masked because it is based on false consciousness. This false consciousness can maintain its total power only by means of a total reign of terror in which all real motives are ultimately obscured. The members of the ruling bureaucratic class have the right of ownership over society only collectively, as participants in a fundamental lie: they have to play the role of the proletariat governing a socialist society; they have to be actors faithful to a script of ideological betrayal. Yet they cannot actually participate in this counterfeit entity unless their legitimacy is validated. No bureaucrat can individually assert his right to power, because to prove himself a socialist proletarian he would have to demonstrate that he was the opposite of a bureaucrat, while to prove himself a bureaucrat is impossible because the bureaucracy’s official line is that there is no bureaucracy. Each bureaucrat is thus totally dependent on the central seal of legitimacy provided by the ruling ideology, which validates the collective participation in its “socialist regime” of all the bureaucrats it does not liquidate.
'nuff said.

Ismail
6th December 2009, 22:24
As J. Arch Getty notes in Origins of the Great Purges, Stalin did adopt an anti-bureaucratic mantle, and whether or not you view it as genuine, he did attempt to prevent the emergence of local cliques and to undermine existing ones. Zhdanov, Molotov and Yezhov went even further than Stalin in advocating this, and Zhdanov in particular was a fairly strong advocate of inter-party democracy (whereas Molotov and Yezhov focused more on "These guys are enemies to socialism and must be liquidated"). The fact that Stalin was willing to have contested elections in 1937 up until the last minute (due to a combination of real fears that the CPSU candidates would lose big in the countryside and the total lack of local party support for said elections; footdragging, etc.) shows that he viewed the local cliques as a negative force and wanted them replaced. There are various various speeches (including a 1937 one in particular (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1937/03/05.htm)) that have Stalin condemning the bureaucracy.

That Stalin had to condemn revisionism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/bland/1980/restoration-capitalism-soviet-union/appendix-3.htm) in the late 40's in the economic field also shows that Stalin had plenty of bureaucratic opposition to him. Voznosensky's economic theories predominated after Stalin's death following the condemnation of "Stalinism" by Khrushchev.

As for Lenin's "will" it basically noted the flaws and positives of each possible successor. Obviously to portray it as "Lenin said Trotsky should succeed Stalin" is simplistic, since Lenin had conflicts with both Stalin and Trotsky, though his conflicts with the former were at that date more recent and had turned into a more personal matter (with Stalin arguing with Lenin's wife and calling her a "*****," etc.)


You have not demonstrated in the least that the opportunistic liquidation of the Comintern by Stalin was "anti-mperialistic. Why don't you start by demonstrating that it was such.Because the Comintern was a Soviet-centered organization which led to various blunders due to overcentralization. China ("From Moscow it looks like the KMT won't betray you" "Well you're the mighty USSR, you're so awesome guys, you cannot possibly be wrong") and France (http://web.archive.org/web/20020918070908/www22.brinkster.com/harikumar/CommunistLeague/PopularFrontFranceSpain_Final.htm) ("We're the Comintern, we know more about French politics than the PCF because we're Marxist-Leninist like that") are examples.*

As Mao noted (http://www.marx.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-6/mswv6_36.htm):

'It is a principle of Marxism-Leninism that the forms of revolutionary organizations must be adapted to the necessities of the revolutionary struggle. If a form of organization is no longer adapted to the necessities of the struggle, then this form of organization must be abolished.' Comrade Mao Tse-tung pointed out that at present the form of revolutionary organization known as the Communist International is no longer adapted to the necessities of the struggle. To continue this organizational form would, on the contrary, hinder the development of the revolutionary struggle in each country. What is needed now is the strengthening of the national Communist Party [min-tsu kung-chan tang] of each country, and we no longer need this international leading centre. There are three main reasons for this. (1) The internal situation in each country and the relations between the different countries are more complicated than they have been in the past and are changing more rapidly. It is no longer possible for a unified international organization to adapt itself to these extremely complicated and rapidly changing circumstances. Correct leadership must grow out of a detailed analysis of these conditions, and this makes it even more necessary for the Communist Party of each country to undertake this itself. The Communist International, which is far removed from the concrete struggle in each country, was adapted to the relatively simple condition of the past, when changes took place rather slowly, but not it is no longer a suitable instrument...It wasn't so much anti-imperialist as it was supporting the independence of parties from the "conductor's baton," as Hoxha later called it.

* The Alliance ML article on France is good as an example of overcentralization if you ignore the dumb "OMG DIMITROV WAS A HIDDEN AGENT WHO USED THE POPULAR FRONT AGAINST SOCIALISM" thing.

robbo203
7th December 2009, 10:32
Jeez, this reminds me of the medieval scholastic debates about how many angels can you fit in on the head of a pin. When is the Left going to enter the 21st century, I wonder? The world is groaning with the technological potential for a communist future. The structural waste of capitalism and its money economy has reached monumental proportions and yet here we are, fixated on obscure controversies involving two, long dead politicians.

RED DAVE
7th December 2009, 12:05
As J. Arch Getty notes in Origins of the Great Purges, Stalin did adopt an anti-bureaucratic mantle, and whether or not you view it as genuine, he did attempt to prevent the emergence of local cliques and to undermine existing ones. Zhdanov, Molotov and Yezhov went even further than Stalin in advocating this, and Zhdanov in particular was a fairly strong advocate of inter-party democracy (whereas Molotov and Yezhov focused more on "These guys are enemies to socialism and must be liquidated"). The fact that Stalin was willing to have contested elections in 1937 up until the last minute (due to a combination of real fears that the CPSU candidates would lose big in the countryside and the total lack of local party support for said elections; footdragging, etc.) shows that he viewed the local cliques as a negative force and wanted them replaced. There are various various speeches (including a 1937 one in particular (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1937/03/05.htm)) that have Stalin condemning the bureaucracy.(emph. added)

Not even you believe it: that's why you had to qualify your remarks as you did. It wasn't genuine at all, as witnessed by the fact that the bureaucracy remained solidly in power. Stalin used crtiques of the bureaucracy, of which he was the leader, to justify the purges.


That Stalin had to condemn revisionism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/bland/1980/restoration-capitalism-soviet-union/appendix-3.htm) in the late 40's in the economic field also shows that Stalin had plenty of bureaucratic opposition to him. Voznosensky's economic theories predominated after Stalin's death following the condemnation of "Stalinism" by Khrushchev.Oh, please. Stalin could and would condemn or support anything and everything to maintain himself and the bureaucracy he led in power.


As for Lenin's "will" it basically noted the flaws and positives of each possible successor. Obviously to portray it as "Lenin said Trotsky should succeed Stalin" is simplistic, since Lenin had conflicts with both Stalin and Trotsky, though his conflicts with the former were at that date more recent and had turned into a more personal matter (with Stalin arguing with Lenin's wife and calling her a "*****," etc.)You are being dishonest here. No one said that the will named Trotsky as Lenin's heir. But the will explicitly says that Stalin should be removed from the Central Committee!


Because the Comintern was a Soviet-centered organization which led to various blunders due to overcentralization.Which Stalin must take complete responsibility for.


China ("From Moscow it looks like the KMT won't betray you" "Well you're the mighty USSR, you're so awesome guys, you cannot possibly be wrong") and France (http://web.archive.org/web/20020918070908/www22.brinkster.com/harikumar/CommunistLeague/PopularFrontFranceSpain_Final.htm) ("We're the Comintern, we know more about French politics than the PCF because we're Marxist-Leninist like that") are examples.*

* The Alliance ML article on France is good as an example of overcentralization if you ignore the dumb "OMG DIMITROV WAS A HIDDEN AGENT WHO USED THE POPULAR FRONT AGAINST SOCIALISM" thing.Likewise, Stalin's responsibility


As Mao noted (http://www.marx.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-6/mswv6_36.htm):
It wasn't so much anti-imperialist as it was supporting the independence of parties from the "conductor's baton," as Hoxha later called it.I'm not sure, but it seems to me you just contradicted yourself.

More later.

RED DAVE

Holden Caulfield
7th December 2009, 12:15
"Why and how the national question has, at the present time, been bought to the fore...is shown in detail in the resolution itself. There is hardly any need to dwell on this in view of the clarity of the situation. This situation and the fundamentals of a national programme for Social-Democracy have recently been dealt with in Marxist theoretical literature (the most prominent place being taken by Stalin’s article.” He is referring to the writing by Stalin entitled Marxism and the National Question.



Wasn't a bad article, not at all. I especially like when Stalinists then put what that article suggested into action. Oh wait...
:rolleyes:

Ismail
7th December 2009, 13:17
Not even you believe it: that's why you had to qualify your remarks as you did. It wasn't genuine at all, as witnessed by the fact that the bureaucracy remained solidly in power. Stalin used crtiques of the bureaucracy, of which he was the leader, to justify the purges.Actually I would say that Stalin was genuine in his intent to fight bureaucratism. As for my "remarks," it's just that it's a fact that he did openly condemn the bureaucracy and sought to weaken local cliques of well-entrenched bureaucrats. If you're saying "Well he's doing it to consolidate his power" then you can honestly claim that of anyone ever, since it necessarily implies a stronger "central command."


Oh, please. Stalin could and would condemn or support anything and everything to maintain himself and the bureaucracy he led in power.Which is an emotional argument. "Anything Stalin did had an ulterior motive." Who was correct (or "more correct") in the debate, then? Stalin or Voznosensky? After all, if Stalin is defending a genuinely Marxist economic analysis against vulgarism then that does account for something.


You are being dishonest here. No one said that the will named Trotsky as Lenin's heir. But the will explicitly says that Stalin should be removed from the Central Committee!From the Central Committee? Lenin in both the "will" and postscript talked specifically about Stalin's position as General Secretary. As Ian Grey noted (Stalin: Man of History, pp. 158-9): "The function of the office was to co-ordinate the work of the complex party apparatus. But it was also intended that the Secretariat would examine the membership more closely and ensure that delegates to future congresses were more carefully chosen... Apparently no one, not even Lenin at this stage, paused to reflect that Stalin was now the only Bolshevik leader who was a member of the Central Committee, Politburo, Orgburo, and the Secretariat, the four closely interlinked organs which controlled every aspect of the party and of national life."

So for Lenin to say that he "has concentrated an enormous power in his hands" and that he was not sure that Stalin "always knows how to use that power with sufficient caution" was a reflection on both the fact that Stalin did hold much power and that he had been engaged in various disputes, had acted angrily towards Lenin's wife, etc. Nothing about the Central Committee. I agree with analyses that Lenin didn't have a clear-cut successor, he seems to have wanted a collective leadership-esque system.


Which Stalin must take complete responsibility for.The Comintern as a Soviet-centered (read: CPSU) organization was inherent. See, for example, the attempts by the Workers' Opposition to lodge protests to the Comintern in 1922. Stalin did indeed make blunders when it came to China (though I do not see his interference in France in regards to the PCF and Popular Front vis-à-vis policies), and other "Stalinists" (such as Mao) noted them. Don't forget that the KMT was at one point pro-Soviet and received help from the Comintern under Lenin, and was seen as an organization with a leftist and rightist line (the leftists being led, ironically enough, by Wang Jingwei at that point).

RED DAVE
7th December 2009, 14:39
Jeez, this reminds me of the medieval scholastic debates about how many angels can you fit in on the head of a pin. When is the Left going to enter the 21st century, I wonder? The world is groaning with the technological potential for a communist future. The structural waste of capitalism and its money economy has reached monumental proportions and yet here we are, fixated on obscure controversies involving two, long dead politicians.This "fixat[ion] on obscure controversies involving two, long dead politicians" is far from academic. First of all, it concerns the very meaning of socialism. Stalinists (and Maoists) have a top-down, bureaucratic notion of socialism, which is in fact state capitalism.

Secondly, you are going to find out, as the labor movement and other mass movements arise, that the position that a group (or an individual) has on the nature of socialism is mirrored, by and large, in the nature of their functioning. You will discover that Stalinists and Maoists have a bureaucratic method of functioning inside the labor movement which makes it, in practice, difficult for them to separate themsevles from the leadership/bureaucracy of the labor movement because they want to replace this leadership/bureaucracy with themselves.

If you don't believe, watch over the next few years as things develop. As an example the CPUSA, in effect, supported Obama in the 2008 election.

RED DAVE

FSL
7th December 2009, 17:36
Which is an emotional argument. "Anything Stalin did had an ulterior motive." Who was correct (or "more correct") in the debate, then? Stalin or Voznosensky? After all, if Stalin is defending a genuinely Marxist economic analysis against vulgarism then that does account for something.



They won't answer that. They never will. In the same way that it's hard to hear anyone defend Trotsky's remarks that the collectivization shouldn't even have been attempted for a another decade or two (if then). Or in the same way they can -hypocritically- denounce China, but defend Bukharin.

Their "strength" is using the years and years of anti-socialist propaganda.
If they were actually trying to stand up and argue for the policies they'd like to see implemented, many would get thrown out in a heartbeat from here as well as the workers' movement in general.

RED DAVE
7th December 2009, 22:58
Which is an emotional argument. "Anything Stalin did had an ulterior motive." Who was correct (or "more correct") in the debate, then? Stalin or Voznosensky? After all, if Stalin is defending a genuinely Marxist economic analysis against vulgarism then that does account for something.No, because a "genuinely Marxist economic analysis" would have started with a debate inside the working class, not inside the bureaucracy. The fact that the bureaucracy was using Marxist jargon is of no more import than the fact that the word "socialism" has occasionally been raised as the capitalists try to cope with their latest crisis.


They won't answer that. They never will.Just did.


In the same way that it's hard to hear anyone defend Trotsky's remarks that the collectivization shouldn't even have been attempted for a another decade or two (if then).Considering that the collectivization of agriculture has now been replaced by the capitalization of agriculture, this point is a bit moot.


Or in the same way they can -hypocritically- denounce China, but defend Bukharin.I have no idea, basically, what you are talking about here.


TheirWho is this mysterious "they"?


"strength" is using the years and years of anti-socialist propaganda.No, "our strength" comes, partly, from the fact that "we" understand that the USSR and kindred states were/are state capitalist, and we don't have to swallow Stalin's feces in our arguments.


If they were actually trying to stand up and argue for the policies they'd like to see implemented, many would get thrown out in a heartbeat from here as well as the workers' movement in general.Having argued "policies [I]'d like to see implemented" "inside the workers' movement" for many years, I can say that you are full of shit.

As the current crisis goes on, it will be interesting to see what kinds of sell-out stalinists, maoists, etc., will undertake.

RED DAVE

Intelligitimate
8th December 2009, 00:58
Ahem! The ability of stalinists to lie remains virtually unlimited.

I see PINK DAVE has decided to crawl out from under a rock and pretend he actually knows anything about history. Perhaps you'll revert to your usual habit of posting idiotic links to Hal Draper's bullshit while spewing Cliffite garbage like the senile old fool you are.


In Lenin's Testament, Trotsky is criticized as having "excessive self-assurance and shown excessive preoccupation with the purely administrative side of the work."

And specifically points out Trotsky's non-Bolshevik past in relation to the treachery on the eve of the Revolution of Kamenev and Zinoviev. For someone to claim you don't lie, you sure as hell always purposefully leave this out.


Lenin then advocates: "removing Stalin from that post and appointing another man in his stead."

And Stalin offered his resignation, and everyone unanimously refused it, including your cult icon Trotsky.


So, Trotsky has "... outstanding ability. "He is personally perhaps the most capable man in the present C.C. ... ." Whereas Stalin needs to be removed from his position on the C.C.

lol, so what? Bukharin is the party favorite, although he isn't "fully Marxist." The positive things he writes about practically everyone he mentions has to be contrasted with the negative. What is the negative about Stalin? He is too rude. The negative about Trotsky? That his non-Bolshevic past is comparable to the treachery of Zinoviev and Kamenev, and he is too occupied with bureaucratic shit and full of himself.

blake 3:17
8th December 2009, 01:32
Jeez, this reminds me of the medieval scholastic debates about how many angels can you fit in on the head of a pin.


What I think does matter is which angels and which pins?


When I leant about the differences between Trotsky and Lenin it made me like them both more. I've been studying on Rosa Luxemburg, and I often feel like I'm reading Trotsky and it isn't. THEY couldn't stand each other.

Practical/political/theoretical/partisan differences do just happen and there is no over arching structure for them.

Sometimes these fights are pathological, other times signs of mental health.

With the 20th anniversary of the collapse of the Soviet Union, we're actually in a much better spot in terms of scholarship and debate than we have been before. Pressing stupid sectarian nuances and subtleties as the BIG DIFFERENCE between Real Revolutionaries and _________ ________ or _____ or ...........zzzzzzzz///////zzzzzzzz..... doesn't really matter.

Trotsky, Lenin and Stalin were genuine revolutionaries. I can't see an exact date that Stalin betrayed the revolution but he did. But in terms of practical politics does it really matter? Sometimes, maybe.

FSL
8th December 2009, 07:32
No,because a "genuinely Marxist economic analysis" would have started with a debate inside the working class, not inside the bureaucracy. The fact that the bureaucracy was using Marxist jargon is of no more import than the fact that the word "socialism" has occasionally been raised as the capitalists try to cope with their latest crisis.

Just did.


RED DAVE


You didn't answer. You made an extremely poor attemt at avoiding the question. Central planning, yes or no. Production determined by prices and the use of law of value, yes or no. Commodity production, yes or no.

Wanted Man
8th December 2009, 16:39
No, because a "genuinely Marxist economic analysis" would have started with a debate inside the working class, not inside the bureaucracy.

Ah! So, was Trotskyism developed on the work floor, or on the picket line?

Ismail
8th December 2009, 23:12
No, because a "genuinely Marxist economic analysis" would have started with a debate inside the working class, not inside the bureaucracy. The fact that the bureaucracy was using Marxist jargon is of no more import than the fact that the word "socialism" has occasionally been raised as the capitalists try to cope with their latest crisis.So it doesn't matter to you that this same Stalin who was apparently about as Marxist as Ayn Rand was defending legitimate socialist economics even though the economic reforms after his death (which was preceded by various condemnations of "Stalinist" economics) did more to entrench the bureaucracy and create a new Soviet bourgeoisie than any of Stalin's actions?

One wonders why Stalin never pulled stuff like this:
"In our country, for the first time in history, a State has taken shape which is not a dictatorship of any one class, but an instrument of society as a whole, of the entire people...
The dictatorship of the proletariat is no longer necessary".
(N.S. Khrushchov: Report on the Programme of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, 22nd. Congress CPSU; London; 1961; p. 57, 58).

The Ungovernable Farce
9th December 2009, 16:02
Ah! So, was Trotskyism developed on the work floor, or on the picket line?
I think the Trotskyist movement mainly developed out of disputes among working-class militants in the Communist Parties. As massively massively flawed as Trotskyism is, there's clearly a big difference between that and internal rivalries among a small, closed bureaucratic elite, as with the various Stalinist purges of high-up party members.

ComradeRed22'91
10th December 2009, 07:06
Yeah. as a Stalinist non-revisionist (non_, not anti-) i agree with that. Abolish capitalism, ask questions later. :p

Ismail
14th December 2009, 11:27
I think the Trotskyist movement mainly developed out of disputes among working-class militants in the Communist Parties. As massively massively flawed as Trotskyism is, there's clearly a big difference between that and internal rivalries among a small, closed bureaucratic elite, as with the various Stalinist purges of high-up party members.Actually Getty noted how many workers accused their managers of "Trotskyism" during the Great Purge for exhibiting bureaucratic behavior and condemned them even before it, during the Stakhanovite movement.

Trotskyism developed from Trotsky himself and in relation to factional disputes within the party apparatus. I do not know any instances of organized Trotskyist workers on any large scale (or Trotskyism developing from the "ground-up"). Trotsky himself (I think in My Life) noted how most "Trotskyists" in the 20's and 30's simply adopted the label as a protest against the government, but weren't really Trots themselves (e.g. Tumailov, a self-declared Turkmeni "Trotskyist" who emphasized Turkmen nationalism and self-determination).

As Kahn notes in The Great Conspiracy during the 10th Anniversary of the Russian Revolution:

Trotsky's insurrection collapsed almost as soon as it started. On the morning of November 7, as the workers marched through the Moscow streets, Trotskyite propaganda leaflets were showered down on them from high buildings announcing the advent of the "new leadership." Small bands of Trotskyites suddenly appeared in the streets, waving banners and placards. They were swept away by the irate workers.

The Soviet authorities acted swiftly. Muralov, Smirnov, Mrachkovsky, Dreitzer and other former members of the Trotsky military guard were promptly seized. Kamenev and Pyatakov were arrested in Moscow. Government agents raided secret Trotskyite printing presses and arms dumps. Zinoviev and Radek were arrested in Leningrad, where they had gone to organize a simultaneous Putsch. One of Trotsky's followers, the diplomat Joffe who had been Ambassador to Japan, committed suicide. In some places, Trotskyites were arrested in the company of former White officers, Social Revolutionary terrorists, and foreign agents. . . .Harry Haywood (then a foreign student in the USSR) noted in his autobiography this event:

We learned of secret, illegal meetings held in the Silver Woods outside of Moscow, the establishment of factional printing presses – all in violation of Party discipline. Their activities reached a high point during the November 7, 1927 anniversary of the Revolution.

At the Tenth Anniversary, Trotsky’s followers attempted to stage a counter-demonstration in opposition to the traditional celebration. I remember vividly the scene of our school contingent marching its way to Red Square. As we passed the Hotel Moscow, Trotskyist leaflets were showered down on us, and orators appeared at the windows of the hotel shouting slogans of ‘Down with Stalin.’

They were answered with catcalls and booing from the crowds in the streets below. We seized the leaflets and tore them up. This attempt to rally the people against the Party was a total failure and struck no responsive chord among the masses. It was equivalent to rebellion and this demonstration was the last overt act of the Trotskyist opposition.

During the next month Trotsky, Kamenev and Zinoviev were expelled – along with seventy-four of their chief supporters. They, along with the lesser fry, were sent into exile to Siberia in Central Asia. Trotsky was sent to Alma Alta in Turkestan from where, in 1929, he was allowed to go abroad, first to Turkey and eventually to Mexico.

Later, many of Trotsky’s followers criticized themselves and were accepted back into the Party. But among them was a hard core of bitter-enders, who “criticized” themselves publicly only in order to continue the struggle against Stalin’s leadership from within the Party.Actual Trotskyists were pretty much those who had actual contact with Trotsky, and in the USSR that wasn't very large of a number statistically speaking.

IsItJustMe
15th December 2009, 10:16
Lord.

Let me make a few suggestions here.

First, we have to talk about Bolsheviks and Mensheviks, about the second international and the third international.

We have on the one hand the parties of the second international which overwhelmingly wound up siding with their own bourgeoisies in the war. In the case of the Mensheviks, we have the slogans of "a fair peace without annexation" and "defend the revolution" as excuses for continuing Russia's role in an imperialist war. In most countries, the majority of the socialists did likewise.

So what happened here? What happened is that a very large part of the so-called revolutionaries proved that when push came to shove they really weren't revolutionaries at all but reformists.

Menshevik = fake revolutionary, reformist, pro-Kerensky, pro-war, ultimately pro-capitalism.

Bolshevik = the real deal.

Where does Trotsky fit into this split? Somewhere in between the two. He was a Menshevik right up until after the February revolution. After the revolution, he was charged by Lenin with making peace with the Germans. He wouldn't do it.

What did Lenin think about this? Well, let's look at, to me, the most important bit in his so-called testament:

"I shall just recall that the October episode with Zinoviev and Kamenev was, of course, no accident, but neither can the blame for it be laid upon them personally, any more than non-Bolshevism can upon Trotsky."

In his last letter to the party, Lenin reminds us all of Trotsky's non-Bolshevism, and, also, of course, of Zinoviev and Kamenev's betrayal in October 1917. For those of you who don't know, these two attempted to sabotage the October revolution by leaking details of it to the bourgeois press in advance. (This last incident seems hardly to be mentioned in discussions of these two but I cannot understand why. It is huge.)

Does this matter today?

Yes, it does. It matters because we still see these kind of fake revolutionaries and hangers on. They side with the revolution perhaps for a time when it is on the upswing, but their hearts aren't really in it, and they often oppose the really revolutionary steps it takes. Sooner or later they switch sides and then try to confuse the revolutionaries by saying they were the true revolutionaries all along.

Think of General Raul Baduel in Venezuela, if you like.

That's the real, lasting lesson: Not everyone who calls themselves a revolutionary is telling the truth. You've got to learn to pick out which is which, and to do it intelligently. You can't be fooled because someone is well-spoken, presents well, talented... Still less should you let yourself be fooled by the fact that someone is less hated by the capitalists.

The unfortunate fact is that revolutions have to have leaders. It's important not to give them more of a role than is necessary, not to build up a cult of personality around them, etc. But you have to have them and they have to be solid. So look for the ones who have been solidly revolutionary, not the ones who have waffled back and forth with reformism, who have stood up against revolutionary measures more often than not, etc.

Choose principle and solidity over talent. Especially choose them over talent for self-promotion.

Random Precision
15th December 2009, 16:06
^^^

1. A large faction of the Bolshevik Party was committed to continuing the war with Germany during the negotiations. They were the Left Communists as I recall, and could hardly be accused of not adopting an internationalist stance on the conflict. Trotsky's position, furthermore, was "neither peace nor war" with Germany. The conflict over whether to continue the war after October was hardly the same as before it, when it was being run by the capitalist Provisional Govt.
2. Trotsky had not been a Menshevik since at least 1905- as you say he was "between the two", part of a group that hoped to conciliate the two factions.
3. If we are choosing "principle and solidity", then what do we make of someone like Stalin, who adopted an openly pro-capitalist stance as editor of Pravda after February? Trotsky may not have been a Bolshevik but he never favored class collaboration as Stalin did.

IsItJustMe
15th December 2009, 17:17
^^^

1. A large faction of the Bolshevik Party was committed to continuing the war with Germany during the negotiations. They were the Left Communists as I recall, and could hardly be accused of not adopting an internationalist stance on the conflict. Trotsky's position, furthermore, was "neither peace nor war" with Germany. The conflict over whether to continue the war after October was hardly the same as before it, when it was being run by the capitalist Provisional Govt.

The question was, as I understand it, whether or not to continue a bourgeois war. We had Lenin on one side and Trotsky on the other. This is one of any number of times, before and after the revolution both, that Trotsky was on one side and Lenin on the other.

The problem with Trotsky was not one of personality but one of politics. Trotsky was not a consistent revolutionary. This is why he so often clashed with Lenin.

We know that before the revolution he often clashed with Lenin because he sided with the Mensheviks. He was to the right of Lenin.

Trotskyists seem to believe that his repeated clashes with Lenin AFTER the revolution were different in origin from his clashes BEFORE the revolution. But that's silly: It was the same thing.


2. Trotsky had not been a Menshevik since at least 1905- as you say he was "between the two", part of a group that hoped to conciliate the two factions.I'm reasonably sure that's not correct. He was off and on a formal part of the Mensheviks until not long before the February revolution.

But so what if it is correct? So what if his role was to conciliate between the two, between revolutionaries and reformists? What was needed was a resolute struggle against the reformists, don't you think?


3. If we are choosing "principle and solidity", then what do we make of someone like Stalin, who adopted an openly pro-capitalist stance as editor of Pravda after February? Trotsky may not have been a Bolshevik but he never favored class collaboration as Stalin did.I don't know how many ways to say this:

To be a Menshevik is to favor class collaboration. To favor reformism. To talk revolution and walk counter-revolution.

Take, for instance, the CP Nepal (Marxist-Leninist). These people have a very revolutionary sounding name. But they are in effect the Nepalese Mensheviks.

When the CP Nepal (Maoist) won by far the largest number of seats in parliament, they formed a minority government. But they could not effectively rule because all the other parties were united against them.

This included the Nepali Congress Party, which openly favors capitalism, and the CP Nepal (ML).

So we have an alliance between the capitalists on one hand and the fake communists on the other against the actual communists.

That's what Menshevism is. Nothing less.

I'm not even going to get into the Stalin stuff here. Let's say for a moment that Stalin was just as much of a waffler (it's silly, but let's say it for a moment). So what? You cannot defend Trotsky by pointing out that Stalin was also a waffler. If they were both wafflers, someone else was needed to lead the party.

Call me a Molotovist if you like. In fact, I will say that on every point on which Molotov and Stalin disagreed, I side with Molotov.

Random Precision
15th December 2009, 18:07
^^^

It seems as if you are saying that whatever Lenin said was automatically the revolutionary truth. On peace with Germany, on the Mensheviks, on the trade unions whatever. I grant that he may have been right most of the time, but that was far from obvious to many people living at the time. Like in the case between Bolsheviks and Mensheviks, in many cases they retained joint organizations all the way up to 1917. I think it would be an impossible job to find one major Bolshevik who was not on the receiving end of a polemic by Lenin at least once while he was still alive. Similarly, his disagreements with Lenin before the revolution cannot be reduced to Trotsky on the right, Lenin on the left.

On the question of the war, it was far from an issue of continuing a bourgeois war, yes or no. As I have stated a large faction of the party supported continuing the war to hasten the spread of the revolution to Germany. Trotsky's position was between that, and Lenin's which essentially was peace at any price.

Secondly, Trotsky never favored collaboration with the Russian bourgeoisie as the Mensheviks did. This runs throughout all his life's work. Ever heard of permanent revolution, for instance? I would be very interested if you could find me one quote from him that supported collaboration with the Russian bourgeoisie. Similarly with his having been a Menshevik- I would appreciate a source on that. Wiki has it more or less right from the things I have read:


During 1903 and 1904, many members changed sides in the factions. Plekhanov soon parted ways with the Bolsheviks. Trotsky left the Mensheviks in September 1904 over their insistence on an alliance with Russian liberals and their opposition to a reconciliation with Lenin and the Bolsheviks. From then until 1917 he described himself as a "non-factional social democrat".


You clearly have very little understanding of the revolutionary times in Russia- or it has been distorted by Stalinist lies.

And I don't know what the digression on Nepal is supposed to prove, but the CPN-Maoist is just as Menshevik as the CPN-UML. They both believe in collaboration with capitalism. Both have been part of the capitalist state.

IsItJustMe
15th December 2009, 21:29
^^^

It seems as if you are saying that whatever Lenin said was automatically the revolutionary truth. On peace with Germany, on the Mensheviks, on the trade unions whatever. I grant that he may have been right most of the time, but that was far from obvious to many people living at the time. Like in the case between Bolsheviks and Mensheviks, in many cases they retained joint organizations all the way up to 1917.

It certainly was Lenin's position that the Mensheviks were the labor lieutenants of capital.

Thus this wonderful quote from 1919:


those of the Mensheviks who are not hypocritical friends of the landowners and capitalists are now again displaying the spineless vacillation bringing them to serving Kolchak;

Or this one, from 1906:


The two big splits which occurred in the ranks of Social Democracy -- the split between the "Economists"and the old Iskrists in 1900-03, and the split between the "Mensheviks" and "Bolsheviks" in 1903-O6 -- were the result of an acute struggle between two trends characteristic of the whole international socialist movement, viz., the opportunist trend and the revolutionary trend, in their peculiar forms corresponding to particular stages of the Russian revolution.

Trotskyists, such as yourself, want to cloud that issue. In the Trotskyite telling of it, there were these different groupings that formed and reformed according to this reason or that reason, and eventually some of them came together -- under the Bolshevik banner as a matter of chance -- and made a revolution.

Trotskyists, such as yourself, therefore are clouding the issue of who is a revolutionary and who is a reformist. That, actually, is my point, neatly illustrated by... You.


I think it would be an impossible job to find one major Bolshevik who was not on the receiving end of a polemic by Lenin at least once while he was still alive.

Yeah? Find me the ones on Stalin, Sverdlov and Molotov.

And remember, on Trotsky we are not talking about one, we are talking about a good number.


Similarly, his disagreements with Lenin before the revolution cannot be reduced to Trotsky on the right, Lenin on the left.Yeah. They can. It just sticks in your craw to do it.


On the question of the war, it was far from an issue of continuing a bourgeois war, yes or no. As I have stated a large faction of the party supported continuing the war to hasten the spread of the revolution to Germany.

Nonsense. Trotsky went to Brest-Litovsk to talk peace, not to spread the revolution to Germany. He failed to do so because it involved too many concessions to the Germans, not because he had some brilliant plan for spreading revolution to Germany before the Prussians could reach Moscow.

The notion of the Bolsheviks militarily spreading revolution to Germany in 1917 is absurd. They were in no position for any such maneuver.


Trotsky's position was between that, and Lenin's which essentially was peace at any price.

Lenin's position was not to send any more workers and peasants from the Soviet Union to kill German workers and peasants for bourgeois aims. Trotsky's position was, "Well, except maybe just a little..."


Secondly, Trotsky never favored collaboration with the Russian bourgeoisie as the Mensheviks did. This runs throughout all his life's work. Ever heard of permanent revolution, for instance? I would be very interested if you could find me one quote from him that supported collaboration with the Russian bourgeoisie.

What you don't get, seemingly however many times I say it, is that collaboration with the Mensheviks is collaboration with the bourgeoisie. The Mensheviks were in effect a bourgeois party, the labor lieutenants of capital, not all that different from Ramsay MacDonald's labor party, let us say.


Similarly with his having been a Menshevik- I would appreciate a source on that. Wiki has it more or less right from the things I have read:

How about this:


When Vladimir Lenin returned to Russia on 3rd April, 1917, he announced what became known as the April Theses. Lenin attacked those Bolsheviks who had supported the Provisional Government. Instead, he argued, revolutionaries should be telling the people of Russia that they should take over the control of the country. In his speech, Lenin urged the peasants to take the land from the rich landlords and the industrial workers to seize the factories. Some Mensheviks such as Leon Trotsky and Alexandra Kollontai, agreed with this view and now joined the Bolsheviks.

But, again, so what? So what if he was not organizationally a Menshevik. He was an apologist for the Mensheviks, as are you. He could not accept the class nature of the dispute between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks and neither can you.


You clearly have very little understanding of the revolutionary times in Russia- or it has been distorted by Stalinist lies.

It may be I a mistaken. If so, it is through ignorance. Trotsky's error, and the error of most Trotskyists, is a stubborn refusal to grasp facts.


And I don't know what the digression on Nepal is supposed to prove,I cannot help but think that my writing was clear enough on the point I was making.

Let me try one more time just to be sure:

In revolutionary situations, there are those who give themselves revolutionary names while in effect allying themselves with reaction. An example of this would be the Mensheviks. Another example would be Norman Thomas, Ramsey MacDonald, etc.

It has been suggested by some that this discussion is purely historical.

My point--and I thought it was clear enough, but here I will try again--is that very similar conflicts come along every time there is a revolutionary situation. And revolutionaries must learn to distinguish between revolutionaries and reformists... Whether it is Mensheviks and Bolsheviks or CPN-ML and CPN-Maoist.


but the CPN-Maoist is just as Menshevik as the CPN-UML. They both believe in collaboration with capitalism. Both have been part of the capitalist state.

What in the world can you possibly mean by this? That taking part in parliament makes you a Menshevik, an opportunist, or a collaborationist?

No, the bottom line is this:

Leninism means a sharp break from fake revolutionaries. Trotskyists refuse to do that and work as hard as they can to cloud the issues, whether it is in revolutionary Russia or revolutionary Nepal.

IsItJustMe
15th December 2009, 21:47
3. If we are choosing "principle and solidity"

Pardon me... I left this out before, but it's been nagging at me. What do you mean "if?"

I mean, do you or do you not agree that a revolutionary party must have revolutionary leadership? That a revolutionary party must exclude from its leadership reformists, capitalist agents, waiverers, etc.? If a person has been a reformist until, say, yesterday, and suddenly declares he has broken from reformism and now is a revolutionary, should we immediately admit him to the central committee or even higher?

I mean, how far does this go?

Do Trotskyists even acknowledge that there is such a thing as a reformist masquerading as a revolutionary? That there are those who revise Marx? Who pretend to be working for the working class while actually siding with the exploiters?

Random Precision
15th December 2009, 21:52
You have a very black-and-white view of things. Maybe I will respond later. But in case not, please note that never once did Trotsky advocate collaboration with the Russian bourgeoisie.

To say that advocating collaboration with the Mensheviks is the same thing is utter nonsense. Bolsheviks and Mensheviks collaborated all the time. Sometimes there was actual unity between their organizations in some cities. They even attempted unity of the two factions in 1913 I believe.

Lenin thought that the Mensheviks were not reformist but centrist. Driven by the prevailing wind they would embrace reform or revolution, like they did in 1905.

"Remember Nachalo ... Remember articles in the spirit of Witte Is the Agent of the Bourse, Struve Is the Agent of Witte. Those were excellent articles! And those were excellent times – we did not then disagree with the Mensheviks in our assessment of the Cadets" - Lenin

"It is no secret to anyone that the vast majority of Social Democratic workers are exceedingly dissatisfied with the split in the Party and are demanding unity. It is no secret to anyone that the split has caused a certain cooling-off among Social Democratic workers (or workers ready to become Social Democrats) towards the Social Democratic Party.

"The workers have lost almost all hope that the party “chiefs” will unite of themselves. The need for unity was formally recognised both by the third Congress of the RSDLP and by the Menshevik conference held last May. Six months have passed since then, but the cause of unity has made hardly any progress. No wonder the workers are beginning to show signs of impatience" - Lenin

etc. etc. etc.

IsItJustMe
15th December 2009, 22:14
To say that advocating collaboration with the Mensheviks is the same thing is utter nonsense. Bolsheviks and Mensheviks collaborated all the time. Sometimes there was actual unity between their organizations in some cities. They even attempted unity of the two factions in 1913 I believe.

Sure. Collaboration on a local level is sometimes necessary. Trying to seek a PRINCIPLED unity is fine. But blurring the distinctions, or trying to seek a common platform on the basis of a compromise between revolution and reformism is not fine.


Lenin thought that the Mensheviks were not reformist but centrist.

Uh, Lenin, according to your quotes, sometimes agreed with them about the cadets, let's say, or something like that. Lenin was seeking to win over the majority of the rank and file. But Lenin was of the view that the leadership was reformist. I put some quotes before. You ignored them. Here they are again:


The two big splits which occurred in the ranks of Social Democracy -- the split between the "Economists"and the old Iskrists in 1900-03, and the split between the "Mensheviks" and "Bolsheviks" in 1903-O6 -- were the result of an acute struggle between two trends characteristic of the whole international socialist movement, viz., the opportunist trend and the revolutionary trend, in their peculiar forms corresponding to particular stages of the Russian revolution.


those of the Mensheviks who are not hypocritical friends of the landowners and capitalists are now again displaying the spineless vacillation bringing them to serving Kolchak;

Bringing them to serving Kolchak!

But let us look at what he has to say about Martov, the left Menshevik:


Both in articles and in the resolutions of our Party, we have repeatedly pointed to this most profound connection, the economic connection, between the imperialist bourgeoisie and the opportunism which has triumphed (for long?) in the labour movement. And from this, incidentally, we concluded that a split with the social-chauvinists was inevitable. Our Kautskyites preferred to evade the question! Martov, for instance, uttered in his lectures a sophistry which in the Bulletin of the Organising Committee, S (No. 4, April 10, 1916) is expressed as follows: ". . . The cause of revolutionary Social-Democracy would be in a sad, indeed hopeless, plight if those groups of workers who in mental development approach most closely to the 'intelligentsia' and who are the most highly skilled fatally drifted away from it towards opportunism. . . ."
By means of the silly word "fatally" and a certain sleight-of-hand, the fact is evaded that certain groups of workers have already drifted away to opportunism and to the imperialist bourgeoisie! And that is the very fact the sophists of the O. C. want to evade! They confine themselves to the "official optimism" the Kautskyite Hilferding and many others now flaunt: objective conditions guarantee the unity of the proletariat and the victory of the revolutionary trend! We, forsooth, are "optimists" with regard to the proletariat!
But in reality all these Kautskyites -- Hilferding, the O. C. supporters, Martov and Co. -- are optimists . . . with regard to opportunism. That is the whole point!


There you have it: "all these Kautskyites -- Hilferding, the O.C. supporters, Martov and Co."



"Remember Nachalo ... Remember articles in the spirit of Witte Is the Agent of the Bourse, Struve Is the Agent of Witte. Those were excellent articles! And those were excellent times – we did not then disagree with the Mensheviks in our assessment of the Cadets" - Lenin

Uh huh. The Mensheviks said some things which were true once. So?


"It is no secret to anyone that the vast majority of Social Democratic workers are exceedingly dissatisfied with the split in the Party and are demanding unity. It is no secret to anyone that the split has caused a certain cooling-off among Social Democratic workers (or workers ready to become Social Democrats) towards the Social Democratic Party.

"The workers have lost almost all hope that the party “chiefs” will unite of themselves. The need for unity was formally recognised both by the third Congress of the RSDLP and by the Menshevik conference held last May. Six months have passed since then, but the cause of unity has made hardly any progress. No wonder the workers are beginning to show signs of impatience" - Lenin

What do you take from this quote? That he did not think that there was a serious division between the two? If the workers all wanted unity, and Lenin wanted unity, why was there no unity?

The answer is very simple:

The Mensheviks would only take a unity on the basis of opportunism and reformism. Lenin wouldn't have it.

You say that I take a black and white view. I say that you, like Trotsky himself, refuse to really draw a line between reformists and revolutionaries. You will not distinguish between the enemies of the revolution and the friends of the revolution.

Random Precision
16th December 2009, 07:45
Your view of history is absurd. We have Saint Lenin with a clear and precise view of who is for the revolution and who is against it striding forward as his enemies fall to the side. If only things had been that simple.


It certainly was Lenin's position that the Mensheviks were the labor lieutenants of capital.

In 1919 he could easily say this, with 20/20 hindsight. In 1905 when Mensheviks and Bolsheviks marched together, or in 1913 as they approached unity, things were a bit more hazy. Different circumstances, different positions.


Yeah? Find me the ones on Stalin, Sverdlov and Molotov.

For Stalin that is easy enough: The Question of Nationalities or "Autonomization" (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/dec/testamnt/autonomy.htm)

On Sverdlov you may have me. I wouldn't consider Molotov being a major figure until after Lenin's death.


Yeah. They can. It just sticks in your craw to do it.

Okay. So let's look at his original dispute with Lenin. It was about the organization of the party. Lenin favored a more elite model while Trotsky favored a mass party. Only two years later, during the 1905 revolution Lenin backtracked and was favoring a mass model.

Trotsky also favored conciliation of the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks. Lenin argued against this until 1913, when he took part at an actual bona fide unity congress in Stockholm.

There were all kinds of disagreements. Lenin and Trotsky both changed their positions many times. Neither could see the future. They were human beings not demigods.


Nonsense. Trotsky went to Brest-Litovsk to talk peace, not to spread the revolution to Germany. He failed to do so because it involved too many concessions to the Germans, not because he had some brilliant plan for spreading revolution to Germany before the Prussians could reach Moscow.

Trotsky did not favor this. The Left Communists did. Are you saying the concessions the Soviet Republic made were not worth thinking about though?


The notion of the Bolsheviks militarily spreading revolution to Germany in 1917 is absurd. They were in no position for any such maneuver.

It did not seem like that to many people. Most German soldiers were workers, and many were Social Democrats or were sympathetic to socialism. If you get into contact with German soldiers, who knows what they might do. In fact there were many German POWs in Russia who went over to the Communist cause. It may seem "absurd" to you but it was far from obvious to many people at the time that it could not be done.


Lenin's position was not to send any more workers and peasants from the Soviet Union to kill German workers and peasants for bourgeois aims. Trotsky's position was, "Well, except maybe just a little..."

His position was "neither peace nor war". Tattoo that on your arm or something that war by a socialist republic against a capitalist country =/= bourgeois war. And who cares because that was not his position.


What you don't get, seemingly however many times I say it, is that collaboration with the Mensheviks is collaboration with the bourgeoisie. The Mensheviks were in effect a bourgeois party, the labor lieutenants of capital, not all that different from Ramsay MacDonald's labor party, let us say.

The Mensheviks were a working-class party with reformist leadership. They would not develop into an openly capitalist party until 1917.


How about this:

It's wrong. Look at Isaac Deutscher's biography or even fucking Volkoganov ffs, it's a historical fact.


But, again, so what? So what if he was not organizationally a Menshevik. He was an apologist for the Mensheviks, as are you. He could not accept the class nature of the dispute between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks and neither can you.

LOL. If there was a class issue in the divide then it was far from apparent even to Saint Lenin a lot of times.


What in the world can you possibly mean by this? That taking part in parliament makes you a Menshevik, an opportunist, or a collaborationist?

I mean that taking a place at the head of a capitalist government makes you a Menshevik, an opportunist, and a collaborationist. The Mensheviks did this. The CPN-Maoist has done this. Perhaps they will do it again. The CPN-UML is doing this right now.


Uh, Lenin, according to your quotes, sometimes agreed with them about the cadets, let's say, or something like that.

The point is that there were times when he agreed very much with the Menshevik line. Pretty far from calling them "fake revolutionaries".


You say that I take a black and white view. I say that you, like Trotsky himself, refuse to really draw a line between reformists and revolutionaries. You will not distinguish between the enemies of the revolution and the friends of the revolution.

LOL. The point is that you can act in a revolutionary manner, and you can act in a counter-revolutionary manner. The Mensheviks clearly did both at different times. How much sense would it have made in 1905, with Mensheviks at the head of the Petrograd Soviet and leading the masses in the streets, for Lenin to tell them, "fuck off, dwarves of reaction!"

No. People change their positions. When someone in the party makes a wrong turn and say, favors a mass workers party, that does not make them a reactionary forever and all time amen. But when that same person becomes a minister in a capitalist government, well, that might be a pretty good indication that they're unsalvageable.

IsItJustMe
16th December 2009, 08:20
Your view of history is absurd. We have Saint Lenin with a clear and precise view of who is for the revolution and who is against it striding forward as his enemies fall to the side. If only things had been that simple.

Nonsense. My view of history is that there were revisionists and revolutionaries, and the Lenin was consistently a revolutionary, while other people were less so. Trotsky, in particular, was no such thing.

You know that. Everyone reading my posts knows that. I've made it as clear as a bell. Lenin was a genius, yes, but that's not what really set him apart. What really set him apart was his revolutionary consistency.

The rest is your caricature, your nonsense, your dishonest argumentation... Putting words in my mouth and ideas in my mouth which I never said because you cannot answer what I actually have said.

This is why you entirely ignore the question of revisionists and traitors in the labor movement. You laugh it off and change the subject because once it is even seriously considered, the bankruptcy of your position becomes clear.

In your world, there is no Kautsky, no Hilferding, no Norman Thomas... Only a bunch of good revolutionaries honestly trying to find their way. Where do ideas come from? From the material world? For you, they just sort of appear sometimes.

Could the bourgeoisie infiltrate the labor movement, or bribe part of its leadership? Inconceivable, or at least unutterable, to you.

You are a smart person. Why do you continue to ignore these things? Because these ideas make you uncomfortable. They come too close to the edge. You will take revolution to a certain point and no further, and considering these ideas is beyond your limit.


For Stalin that is easy enough: The question of Nationalities or "Autonomization"Really, this is pathetic. The only quote directly relating to Stalin is this:


I think that Stalin's haste and his infatuation with pure administration, together with his spite against the notorious "nationalist-socialism" [Stalin critised the minority nations for not being "internationalist" because they did want to unite with Russia], played a fatal role here. In politics spite generally plays the basest of roles.

That is your major polemic blasting him? As against, say, Lenin's polemic entitled "Judas Trotsky's Blush of Shame"? You are seriously comparing this one line criticism of Stalin over a mess which evidently had many authors with the polemical war which Lenin kept up against Trotsky more or less throughout his entire political career?

The comparison is truly shameless.


On Sverdlov you may have me. I wouldn't consider Molotov being a major figure until after Lenin's death.In short, you can't find a single major polemic aimed at any one of the three. Lenin directed polemic after polemic at Trotsky. He never treated any Bolshevik in any such fashion. His other major polemical targets were Mensheviks and counterrevolutionaries of various stripes.


Okay. So let's look at his original dispute with Lenin. It was about the organization of the party. Lenin favored a more elite model while Trotsky favored a mass party. Only two years later, during the 1905 revolution Lenin backtracked and was favoring a mass model.In short, you are saying that not only was there no substantial important difference between Trotsky and Lenin, there was no substantial, important difference between Lenin and the Mensheviks.

That Lenin called these people opportunists and traitors, compared them to the Renegade Kautsky, etc... This, you are saying, was just Lenin blowing smoke. That they should then turn out to actually BE traitors when the proletarian revolution came around... To live up to the billing Lenin had given them? This, you are saying, was blind luck.

Basta. It's pointless to discuss further. Except for this one point: At least you will not call yourself a Leninist and say these things, yes? Because Lenin was full-square against you in your views:



“Kautsky, the leading authority in the Second International, is a most typical and striking example of how a verbal recognition of Marxism has led in practice to its conversion into ’Struvism’, or into ’Brentanoism’ . Another example is Plekhanov. By means of patent sophistry, Marxism is stripped of its revolutionary living spirit; [I]everything is recognised in Marxism except the revolutionary methods of struggle, the propaganda and preparation of those methods, and the education of the masses in this direction. Kautsky reconciles in an unprincipled way the fundamental idea of social-chauvinism, recognition of defence of the fatherland in the present war, with a diplomatic sham concession to the Lefts—his abstention from voting for war credits, his verbal claim to be in the opposition, etc. Kautsky, who in 1909 wrote a book on the approaching epoch of revolutions and on the connection between war and revolution, Kautsky, who in 1912 signed the Basle manifesto on taking revolutionary advantage of the impending war, is outdoing himself in justifying and embellishing social-chauvinism and, like Plekhanov, joins the bourgeoisie in ridiculing any thought of revolution and all steps towards the immediate revolutionary struggle.
“The working class cannot play its world-revolutionary role unless it wages a ruthless struggle against this backsliding, spinelessness, subservience to opportunism, and unparalleled vulgarisation of the theories of Marxism. Kantskyism is not fortuitous; it is the social product of the contradictions within the Second International, a blend of loyalty to Marxism in word and subordination to opportunism in deed”

Random Precision
17th December 2009, 05:35
Nonsense. My view of history is that there were revisionists and revolutionaries, and the Lenin was consistently a revolutionary, while other people were less so. Trotsky, in particular, was no such thing.

You know that. Everyone reading my posts knows that. I've made it as clear as a bell. Lenin was a genius, yes, but that's not what really set him apart. What really set him apart was his revolutionary consistency.

Okay, he was a consistent revolutionary. That does not mean that everyone else was counter-revolutionary. The Bolsheviks would have been depleted of leaders awful quick if that were the case. Trotsky- gone. Stalin, Zinoviev, Kamenev- gone. In fact Lenin called for the expulsion of those last two from the party in 1917 when they went outside it to polemicize against the call for an insurrection. He thought that it was really beyond the pale. Nevertheless not a single CC member agreed with him. Sverdlov even told him, "Comrade Lenin, this is not how we do things in the Bolshevik Party".

Which shows pretty well what kind of a caricature of the Bolsheviks you have in your mind. As a further indication, the only person expelled from the Bolsheviks during the entire pre-war period was Bogdanov.


The rest is your caricature, your nonsense, your dishonest argumentation... Putting words in my mouth and ideas in my mouth which I never said because you cannot answer what I actually have said.

It may be I've exaggerated and ridiculed your position more than I should have. I'm sorry. It's because I find it quite rich that a Stalinist is accusing me of failing to distinguish between revolutionaries and counterrevolutionaries when your tradition is practically defined by that same inability. Chiang Kai-shek, Winston Churchill, Mohandas Gandhi, and Ahmed Sukarno come to mind. They were all at one time or another proclaimed to be the friend of the worker by Stalinists or Maoists.


In your world, there is no Kautsky, no Hilferding, no Norman Thomas...

Um. No, that doesn't match anything I've said.


That is your major polemic blasting him?

It's a pretty serious criticism. Do you disagree?


As against, say, Lenin's polemic entitled "Judas Trotsky's Blush of Shame"?

LOL at the name.


In short, you can't find a single major polemic aimed at any one of the three. Lenin directed polemic after polemic at Trotsky. He never treated any Bolshevik in any such fashion. His other major polemical targets were Mensheviks and counterrevolutionaries of various stripes.

... and yet, he was invited personally by Lenin to join the Bolsheviks. And yet, Lenin said that there was "no better Bolshevik" than Trotsky (funnily enough, because he said there could be no cooperation with the Mensheviks). And yet, during the Civil War Lenin hands him a blank note fully endorsing whatever orders he deems necessary. And yet, he was offered the post of Lenin's deputy at the Sovnarkom. Why would Saint Vladimir have anything to do with such an open counterrevolutionary, much less treat him with such high regard? Maybe he was going senile.


In short, you are saying that not only was there no substantial important difference between Trotsky and Lenin, there was no substantial, important difference between Lenin and the Mensheviks.

Sometimes they moved closer together and sometimes they moved further apart. They were also very heterodox groups. I would say the difference between them became final when they joined up with Kerensky in the Provisional Govt. Some things are beyond the pale.


That Lenin called these people opportunists and traitors, compared them to the Renegade Kautsky, etc... This, you are saying, was just Lenin blowing smoke. That they should then turn out to actually BE traitors when the proletarian revolution came around... To live up to the billing Lenin had given them? This, you are saying, was blind luck.

Um. No again. Is it beyond the pale to say that Saint Vladimir was wrong about some things and right about some things?


Basta. It's pointless to discuss further.

On that at least we agree.


Except for this one point: At least you will not call yourself a Leninist and say these things, yes? Because Lenin was full-square against you in your views:

I am the kind of Leninist that strives to learn the lessons in revolutionary Marxism he has for us while fully appreciating their historical context. I am full square against the sectarian caricature of Lenin as a god and the Bolshevik Party as a monolith that comes with ignorance of revolutionary history and is found in every Stalinist group.

IsItJustMe
17th December 2009, 07:09
Let's run that last Lenin quote again, shall we:


By means of patent sophistry, Marxism is stripped of its revolutionary living spirit; everything is recognised in Marxism except the revolutionary methods of struggle, the propaganda and preparation of those methods, and the education of the masses in this direction.

Now let's replace Marxism with Leninism, and it applies very, very well to you.

You're a Leninist who disagrees with the heart of Lenin's teachings, namely the need for an organization which is prepared for all forms of struggle and the need for a struggle with the agents of the bourgeoisie within the working-class movement.

I mean, this defies not only Lenin but also common sense. Do you think there won't be opportunists and other types of agents? Do you think that the struggle against them is unimportant? That the workers don't need to learn to distinguish between revolutionary leadership and reformist leadership before they can have a revolution?

Evidently you are prepared to struggle not against the capitalist agents in the workers movement but against the actual revolutionaries in it. That's which side you are on, in the final analysis.

Well, that's enough. All your cobwebs of meaningless words aside, the point is illustrated well and clearly enough.

Kwisatz Haderach
17th December 2009, 08:14
Good question. You might think that materialists might decide whether they like Stalin or Trotsky more by looking at what they actually did and said and what the consequences of their actions were. But no, the infallible writings of the Pope of Marxism, even if he died before the schism between the two really emerged, is obviously a much more reliable guide. Hail the omniscient Lenin!
Well said. It is sad when only an anarchist seems to be able to see what should be evident to every Marxist: The revolution is not an elective monarchy. There are no such things as anointed heirs in Marxism. We oppose all forms of inheritance, including inheritance of political status. Whether Stalin or Trotsky was closer to Leninism is something that should be decided based on the actions of Stalin and Trotsky alone - not based on Lenin's personal relationship with the two. Lenin had no right to name a successor of any kind. All leaders are to be chosen by the working class, remember?

Seriously, comrades, you sound like Sunnis and Shias arguing over who should have been the first Caliph. Stop it.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
17th December 2009, 14:47
Well done to the OP, opened up a whole can of worms here. Probably what you were looking to achieve, too. If it weren't against forum rules, i'd be inserting other words in here.:rolleyes: Unproductive rubbish like this has no place in any intellectual debate regarding Socialism, Marxism, Lenin, Stalin or anything else. It just wastes our time and energy going over old ground that will never be agreed or united upon.

ComradeOm
17th December 2009, 15:52
Lenin had no right to name a successor of any kind. All leaders are to be chosen by the working class, remember?And where did he attempt to do so? Lenin's "Testament" was nothing more than the man's observations on the running of the party (specifically the infamous letter dealt with the possibility of a split). Its context is as part of the final series of letters/articles that Lenin wrote dealing with the composition of the Soviet state*. Not only was he not laying down the law to anyone, he was not even dealing with the matter of the 'succession'. Its also worth noting that Lenin had absolutely no authority to determine his successor beyond his own political capital

Where this "Testament" gets its charged character from is those who followed after and used this simple letter as 'evidence' to support their case. The fault here is not Lenin's but those who continue to treat his works as infallible and continue to argue over them today

* Yet people don't seem to get nearly as excited about On Education or Better Fewer, But Better :confused:

Random Precision
17th December 2009, 16:13
You're a Leninist who disagrees with the heart of Lenin's teachings, namely the need for an organization which is prepared for all forms of struggle and the need for a struggle with the agents of the bourgeoisie within the working-class movement.

I support struggle against reformism and other pro-capitalist tendencies in the workers' movement. Nowhere have I stated otherwise.

What I question is whether, in Russia and today, if you cannot have disagreements over issues of principle and yet remain a revolutionary. Also if you cannot do something that is anti-revolutionary, then acknowledge you made a mistake, and return to the fold.

This attitude has given birth to thousands of sectarian, ultraleftist cults that have been just as harmful to the revolutionary cause as reformism has. It has helped to wreck the revolutionary cause anywhere it brings its reverse Midas touch. It must be struggled against just as firmly as we struggle against reformism. That it is attributed to Lenin, well... if he was in a grave he would be spinning at a pretty high velocity.

Clearly with the right-Mensheviks, and with Kautsky, the things they did had gone beyond one or two simple mistakes and had become a framework for making mistakes. Those kind of people cannot nor should not be dealt with.

But also Lenin must not have been in the business of just writing anyone off who he disagreed with. Why would he have invited Trotsky to join the Bolsheviks otherwise?

RED DAVE
18th December 2009, 23:04
And where did he attempt to do so? Lenin's "Testament" was nothing more than the man's observations on the running of the party (specifically the infamous letter dealt with the possibility of a split). Its context is as part of the final series of letters/articles that Lenin wrote dealing with the composition of the Soviet state*. Not only was he not laying down the law to anyone, he was not even dealing with the matter of the 'succession'. Its also worth noting that Lenin had absolutely no authority to determine his successor beyond his own political capital

Where this "Testament" gets its charged character from is those who followed after and used this simple letter as 'evidence' to support their case. The fault here is not Lenin's but those who continue to treat his works as infallible and continue to argue over them today

* Yet people don't seem to get nearly as excited about On Education or Better Fewer, But Better :confused:Just a reminder comrades after all the insult trading is done: Lenin advocated the removal of Stalin from the Central Committee and did not advocate the removal of Trotsky.

RED DAVE

IsItJustMe
18th December 2009, 23:11
Just a reminder comrades after all the insult trading is done: Lenin advocated the removal of Stalin from the Central Committee and did not advocate the removal of Trotsky.

RED DAVE

Er... No he didn't.

Maybe we could keep to the facts here?

Really, I'm very, very disappointed. You must have read that "Lenin's testament" dozens of times. You know perfectly well that it says he should be replaced as general secretary with someone like him, but easier to get along with. It says nothing whatsoever about removing him from the central committee. How could you make that mistake when that document has been around for years and years and you have undoubtedly discussed and debated its contents repeatedly?

And have you nothing to say about the Bolshevik/Menshevik split?

Are you just going to reduce that to mud-slinging and arguments and say no one should pay attention to it?

I mean, the differences between the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks are important, significant, real.

I'm with Kwisatz Haderach as far as that goes: The question isn't who Lenin favored. The question is who was right, and about what, and what was going on from a Marxist perspective. Simply saying, "Lenin favored Trotsky" would be meaningless, even if it were true, which it isn't.

Kwisatz Haderach
18th December 2009, 23:15
And where did he attempt to do so? Lenin's "Testament" was nothing more than the man's observations on the running of the party (specifically the infamous letter dealt with the possibility of a split). Its context is as part of the final series of letters/articles that Lenin wrote dealing with the composition of the Soviet state*. Not only was he not laying down the law to anyone, he was not even dealing with the matter of the 'succession'. Its also worth noting that Lenin had absolutely no authority to determine his successor beyond his own political capital.
I know. I did not say that Lenin actually attempted to name a successor - I only meant that he had no right to do so, and we should not talk as if he did.

I guess I should have said "many comrades talk as if Lenin was supposed to name a successor, and the only question is who got named. But Lenin was never supposed to do any such thing."

RED DAVE
18th December 2009, 23:51
The question isn't who Lenin favored.Well, at least, that's a meaningful piece of data.


The question is who was right, and about what, and what was going on from a Marxist perspective. Simply saying, "Lenin favored Trotsky" would be meaningless, even if it were true, which it isn't.Well, sorry, about confusing removal from the CC and firing from the General Secretariat. I was jerking off to a picture of Trotsky while shitting on a picture of Stalin at the time, so I was a little confused. :D

In any event, 85+ years later, we see such glories as the Communist parties of Russia, China and the USA, the heirs of Stalin and stalinist politics and methodology, misleading the world, while various Trotskyist groups or offshoots of Trotskyism, well, the outcome is quite mixed, but I think it's obvious which tendency represents some kind of revolutionary hope.

RED DAVE

Intelligitimate
19th December 2009, 04:08
I can't think of any US Trotskyist groups that are in any meaningful way better than the CPUSA (excluding PSL and WWP from the category of Trotskyist groups).

Intelligitimate
19th December 2009, 04:15
Interesting article I hadn't read on the CPUSA, from the left-wing minority in the party:

Another Dark Day in CPUSA History (http://mltoday.com/en/another-dark-day-in-cpusa-history-739.html)

IsItJustMe
19th December 2009, 08:07
And the whole association between Trotsky and the Mensheviks. I suppose no one cares?

I mean, a fuck of a lot of people call themselves Leninists on this board who seem to have no real concern with Lenin's actual ideas. I mean, you guys don't even seem to reject them so much as just not to actually care what they were.

I can easily imagine this is how Marx came to say, "If that man is a Marxist, I am no Marxist." You like the name, the shine, whatever prestige or hipness he's got left. But as far as the content of his teachings... You have no idea and you don't care to bother finding out.

Homo Songun
21st December 2009, 19:48
Ah yes, the myth that Trotsky was working for unity between the social democrats and the Bolsheviks:




It certainly was Lenin's position that the Mensheviks were the labor lieutenants of capital.

In 1919 he could easily say this, with 20/20 hindsight. In 1905 when Mensheviks and Bolsheviks marched together, or in 1913 as they approached unity, things were a bit more hazy. Different circumstances, different positions.


Trotsky also favored conciliation of the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks.

But it was precisely in1913, the supposed point of "approaching unity" between the factions, that Trotsky was calling Lenin a "professional exploiter" and that furthermore "the entire edifice of Leninism is built on lies and falsification and bears within itself the poisonous elements of its own decay." (See his Letter to Chkeidze [1913]).

So if we are to take the Old Man at face value, either he had a bizarre and self-defeating way of finding "unity", or else he was seeking unity with what he considered to be lying, poisonous, professional exploiters!

Of course the apparent contradiction is dissolved if we adopt the alternate proposition that Trotsky was simply an inveterate factionalist for the duration of his political career, and his "turn" to Bolshevism in the 1917-27 period was merely one of many he took both before and afterwards. Indeed, as Lenin said, "Trotsky, however, has never had any “physiognomy” at all; the only thing he does have is a habit of changing sides, of skipping from the liberals to the Marxists and back again, of mouthing scraps of catchwords and bombastic parrot phrases." (From The Break-Up of the “August” Bloc [1914]).