Raymond Lotta/Bob Avakian Communists at my campus

[UC Student]

Hi, I wasn't really sure where to post this, but it seems like this is the place for stupid questions.

First for an introduction, I am a college student at UCLA, and while left enough to be called socialist (which isn't very left now days), I'm not sure I really fit into that category, as for various reasons, I think a capitalism and a democracy can function for the people with certain reforms that do not call for a complete revolution, or new governmental system. I am not here to debate it though, since I will admit I am not that educated in terms of politics, and I am sure all of you have very good reasons.

What does bother me however, is the activists. Recently, a fair number of mostly older (30's to middle aged, its older compared to the vast population of students that are 18 to their 20's) people and a few seemingly student recruits. They hand out thier propgadna daily, it seems rediculous. As much as they demand to be heard and respected, their material and members do no respect to me. Its like an affront to my intelligence, and their volunteers are uneducated and hypocrites.

Today's flyer explained in a non-sequiter way how police are responsible for killing people, and sending them to prison, leading to poor lives down the road. Then it suddenly jumped to communism, and that it somehow fixes everything (without mentioning how) because everyone works for the common good, and Bob Avakian and his communist party makes everything magical, unicorns and rainbows everywhere. Its meant to be a purely emotional argument without a hint of logic to it, and its honestly insulting.

When one of their members was asked by another individual, "How does communism fix police?" the man replied first said "Are you going to listen to me and hear me out?" then said something like "Because this is a police state, which is caused by capitalism, don't you see?" Which seems to be the same non-sequiter from the flier. When asked what prevents an individual from killing someone else and doing similar things, when there are no police, the man rudely scoffed and said "This discussion is over." Having demanded to be heard out, he wouldn't actually offer a rebuttal. Even worse, he either did not respect the person enough to give him an answer, or he couldn't actually come up with one, and then scoffed at the person for his own fault.

This kind of propaganda is really rediculous, as well as having members like this. If anything it makes them look unintelligent, and as the other person put it "You're f***ing crazies and f***ing hypocrites." I can not imagine anyone would actually be able to follow through with their sort of logic unless they were joining a brainwashing cult. I seriously want to know if this is what they actually beleive, or if its just some group of people giving them a bad name. I'm willing to give them a fair chance, but what I've seen is wholely unimpressive.

While googling for a forum relating to this, this one was the closest I could find since it mentioned the two men. However I can not find a discussion forum on their websites, which seems to ironically be called revcom(for one way communication only) and revtalk(for one way discussion only), seemingly not the kind of leftists that like to promote free discussion. Does anyone know where I can find a forum for them, if they have one at all?

[scarletghoul]

Hey welcome. Yeah those kind of activists are terrible as they alienate the movement from the people. At the educational stage, we should all be willing to discuss and debate things, and be sure to explain things.

For what its worth, not all party cadre are like that. The Bob Avakian Party are exceptionally cultish and dogmatic, out of touch. There are other parties like the PSL which seem much better at communicating with people.

I don't know of any forums. Sorry.

[LeninistKing]

Capitalism is the real hell !! Not communism, nor bob abavakian !! Capitalism is pain, slavery and hunger for about 50 millions of americans, and it is only a pleasure and a heaven for about 5% of us citizens !!

Under capitalism most americans are living in pain !! Not to mention all the people in this world !!

We need socialism as soon as possible not to cure completely pain and suffering because that would be a utopia, but at least to lower the levels of hunger, pain and death in this world

only full socialism (workers-state) can save the world

.



hi, i wasn't really sure where to post this, but it seems like this is the place for stupid questions.

First for an introduction, i am a college student at ucla, and while left enough to be called socialist (which isn't very left now days), i'm not sure i really fit into that category, as for various reasons, i think a capitalism and a democracy can function for the people with certain reforms that do not call for a complete revolution, or new governmental system. I am not here to debate it though, since i will admit i am not that educated in terms of politics, and i am sure all of you have very good reasons.

What does bother me however, is the activists. Recently, a fair number of mostly older (30's to middle aged, its older compared to the vast population of students that are 18 to their 20's) people and a few seemingly student recruits. They hand out thier propgadna daily, it seems rediculous. As much as they demand to be heard and respected, their material and members do no respect to me. Its like an affront to my intelligence, and their volunteers are uneducated and hypocrites.

Today's flyer explained in a non-sequiter way how police are responsible for killing people, and sending them to prison, leading to poor lives down the road. Then it suddenly jumped to communism, and that it somehow fixes everything (without mentioning how) because everyone works for the common good, and bob avakian and his communist party makes everything magical, unicorns and rainbows everywhere. Its meant to be a purely emotional argument without a hint of logic to it, and its honestly insulting.

When one of their members was asked by another individual, "how does communism fix police?" the man replied first said "are you going to listen to me and hear me out?" then said something like "because this is a police state, which is caused by capitalism, don't you see?" which seems to be the same non-sequiter from the flier. When asked what prevents an individual from killing someone else and doing similar things, when there are no police, the man rudely scoffed and said "this discussion is over." having demanded to be heard out, he wouldn't actually offer a rebuttal. Even worse, he either did not respect the person enough to give him an answer, or he couldn't actually come up with one, and then scoffed at the person for his own fault.

This kind of propaganda is really rediculous, as well as having members like this. If anything it makes them look unintelligent, and as the other person put it "you're f***ing crazies and f***ing hypocrites." i can not imagine anyone would actually be able to follow through with their sort of logic unless they were joining a brainwashing cult. I seriously want to know if this is what they actually beleive, or if its just some group of people giving them a bad name. I'm willing to give them a fair chance, but what i've seen is wholely unimpressive.

While googling for a forum relating to this, this one was the closest i could find since it mentioned the two men. However i can not find a discussion forum on their websites, which seems to ironically be called revcom(for one way communication only) and revtalk(for one way discussion only), seemingly not the kind of leftists that like to promote free discussion. Does anyone know where i can find a forum for them, if they have one at all?

[Drace]

That really does seem ridiculous but I don't know what to say since you didn't come here for a debate.

And I'm not sure just what it is that your looking for.

@LeninistKing,
The revolution isn't here yet...Relax.

[ellipsis]

Well nobody really gets along with the RCP-USA, the party of bog avakian. I have never heard of a forum for them but a couple revleft members who have been members or are currently. Their are some threads (http://www.revleft.com/vb/all-communists-do-t119792/index.html)discussing/denouncing this party on the board.

[khad]

Oh look, the revleftists are fawning before a cappie. Regardless of how much you all hate Avakian, it seems that there's no end of shamelessness on the left.

[LeninistKing]

Hello, what did Bob Avakian to denounce him? who has the right to denounce him? I know that his Party is too sectarian, but nobody has the authority to denounce anybody. Nobody has the absolute truth about any thing

.

[LeninistKing]

Hello, i like most socialist leftist parties. I don't know why many people don't like The Revolutionary Communist Party of USA.

.



Oh look, the revleftists are fawning before a cappie. Regardless of how much you all hate Avakian, it seems that there's no end of shamelessness on the left.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Oh look, the revleftists are fawning before a cappie. Regardless of how much you all hate Avakian, it seems that there's no end of shamelessness on the left.
When you see someone saying they're open to our ideas, but find the communist propaganda they've seen so far flawed and unconvincing, does it make more sense to a) try and present better arguments that they might find more convincing, or b) call them a cappie and refuse to debate with them? Answers on a postcard please.


What does bother me however, is the activists. Recently, a fair number of mostly older (30's to middle aged, its older compared to the vast population of students that are 18 to their 20's) people and a few seemingly student recruits. They hand out thier propgadna daily, it seems rediculous. As much as they demand to be heard and respected, their material and members do no respect to me. Its like an affront to my intelligence, and their volunteers are uneducated and hypocrites.

Today's flyer explained in a non-sequiter way how police are responsible for killing people, and sending them to prison, leading to poor lives down the road. Then it suddenly jumped to communism, and that it somehow fixes everything (without mentioning how) because everyone works for the common good, and Bob Avakian and his communist party makes everything magical, unicorns and rainbows everywhere. Its meant to be a purely emotional argument without a hint of logic to it, and its honestly insulting.

When one of their members was asked by another individual, "How does communism fix police?" the man replied first said "Are you going to listen to me and hear me out?" then said something like "Because this is a police state, which is caused by capitalism, don't you see?" Which seems to be the same non-sequiter from the flier. When asked what prevents an individual from killing someone else and doing similar things, when there are no police, the man rudely scoffed and said "This discussion is over." Having demanded to be heard out, he wouldn't actually offer a rebuttal. Even worse, he either did not respect the person enough to give him an answer, or he couldn't actually come up with one, and then scoffed at the person for his own fault.

This kind of propaganda is really rediculous, as well as having members like this. If anything it makes them look unintelligent, and as the other person put it "You're f***ing crazies and f***ing hypocrites." I can not imagine anyone would actually be able to follow through with their sort of logic unless they were joining a brainwashing cult. I seriously want to know if this is what they actually beleive, or if its just some group of people giving them a bad name. I'm willing to give them a fair chance, but what I've seen is wholely unimpressive.

Yeah, I'm not an American, so I have no personal experience of the Bob Avakian cult, but everything I've heard about them has been terrible. Most of the Leninst groups have a fairly poor attitude to discussion and debate, but the RCP are famous for being among the worst of the lot. Please don't judge all communists by their standards.
To try and answer your questions, we believe that it'd be possible for a justice system of some kind to function and people to be held accountable to the community without a special armed body being given privileges and powers that set them apart from the rest of the population. For instance, London didn't have a police force until 1829, and yet managed to survive without mass murder breaking out. Sorry if that seems a bit basic and badly argued, but this is just a quick reply on an internet forum that I haven't had a great deal of time to put into - I hope it serves to show that we do at least have some willingness to discuss our ideas and listen to criticism (unlike the RCP).

[khad]

When you see someone saying they're open to our ideas, but find the communist propaganda they've seen so far flawed and unconvincing, does it make more sense to a) try and present better arguments that they might find more convincing, or b) call them a cappie and refuse to debate with them? Answers on a postcard please.
You are an embarrassment. Do you read as well as you write?


I think a capitalism and a democracy can function for the people with certain reforms that do not call for a complete revolution, or new governmental system. I am not here to debate it though, since I will admit I am not that educated in terms of politics, and I am sure all of you have very good reasons.


For instance, London didn't have a police force until 1829, and yet managed to survive without mass murder breaking out. Sorry if that seems a bit basic and badly argued, but this is just a quick reply on an internet forum that I haven't had a great deal of time to put into - I hope it serves to show that we do at least have some willingness to discuss our ideas and listen to criticism (unlike the RCP).

Yes, crypto-feudalism. A very, very good reason indeed.

[Jimmie Higgins]

First for an introduction, I am a college student at UCLAWelcome, I lived in Dykstra hall when I went to UCLA - back when it was affordable. Have you been involved in any of the organizing against the fee hikes/budget cuts?


What does bother me however, is the activists. Recently, a fair number of mostly older (30's to middle aged, its older compared to the vast population of students that are 18 to their 20's) people and a few seemingly student recruits. While I don't agree with the RCP politically, I don't know if this is a fair criticism. They think they have answers for problems in society and are trying to recruit students. The Democrats and Republicans also do this and similarly middle-aged people make materials and give political guidance to the young Dem/Repub groups on campus. While their campus activists are probably all students with some older advisers, this is in an atmosphere where there are 1,000s of self-identified Repubs/Dems on campus. In more radical periods, radicals on campus have all been students like during the anti-apartheid movement and the anti-Vietnam war and free-speech movements of the 60s.


They hand out thier propgadna daily, it seems rediculous. As much as they demand to be heard and respected, their material and members do no respect to me. Its like an affront to my intelligence, and their volunteers are uneducated and hypocrites. I agree - during the Bush administration they had this "christian-fascist" argument that was ridiculous. However, Republicans on campus make even more ridiculous claims about the free-market producing unicorns and rainbows and everything. Why single out one group with strange ideas and then apply it to a whole diverse range or socialist groups?


Today's flyer explained in a non-sequiter way how police are responsible for killing people, and sending them to prison, leading to poor lives down the road. Then it suddenly jumped to communism, and that it somehow fixes everything (without mentioning how) because everyone works for the common good, and Bob Avakian and his communist party makes everything magical, unicorns and rainbows everywhere. Its meant to be a purely emotional argument without a hint of logic to it, and its honestly insulting.I agree - they go for the emotional rather than the political arguement. It's like the christian-fascism argument... it is just meant to scare you into radicalizing rather than making a real political argument. This has the effect of keeping their members un-developed in their own leadership abilities and I don't think it's an useful or effective way to organize. It's essentially how tea-parties organize.

The two socialist groups with the worst reputation in the US are the Sparts and the RCP. If you are interested in learning more about radical arguments, I would check out other groups online. There are pleanty of groups - even ones I disagree with politically or tactically that are rational and have well thought out politics.

[Comrade B]

It sounds more like just crappy members you were talking to.
It is true that the group that Avakian supporters are a little bit hostile to challenge, but they are not all wrong on everything, though they should think a little bit more for themselves.
Crime is ordinarily committed because of people's needs, that is why poor neighborhoods are typically more dangerous than rich ones, few people are going to mug you who own everything already. If you need food, or have a crappy standard of living, you may not see it as a big problem to rob someone who has a much better standard of living because they still wont have it as bad off as you.
The absolute absence of a police force is a long term goal. While it would be nice not to have them now, a police force cannot be abolished quite yet because there will still be some problems lingering from the capitalist mentality. My bet is if you took Trump's cash, he would just want it back and do whatever it takes to get it.

UC Student, your question would have been better placed in the Opposing Ideologies' learning section being that you are a social democrat.
Revleft members pissed off by questions from others, calm the fuck down. You need to talk to other people otherwise people will always think of us as Kim Jong Il supporting lunatics.

If you want to learn more about reasonable, real communism, I recommend checking out the links on this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/revolutionary-left-dictionary-t22628/index.html). I will of course, as a Trotskyist, give my vote for checking out the Trostkyist links especially (Trostkyists are Leninists strongly opposed to Stalin and with a strong focus on decentralization and democracy), however if I only suggest these, it will surely create a giant shit storm. The Party for Socialism and Liberation is a good Marxist group to check out as well.

Remember that these groups should not be taken as the absolute voice for communism either. Though I am a member of the Socialist Alternative (CWI), I vote for the PSL instead of Ralph Nader, and though I vote for the PSL I disagree with their stances on Iran as well as several other views.

Though you might vote for the democrats (I am guessing), I am betting you are not a big supporter of every one of their stances either.

[PRC-UTE]

Hi, I wasn't really sure where to post this, but it seems like this is the place for stupid questions.

First for an introduction, I am a college student at UCLA, and while left enough to be called socialist (which isn't very left now days), I'm not sure I really fit into that category, as for various reasons, I think a capitalism and a democracy can function for the people with certain reforms that do not call for a complete revolution, or new governmental system. I am not here to debate it though, since I will admit I am not that educated in terms of politics, and I am sure all of you have very good reasons.

What does bother me however, is the activists. Recently, a fair number of mostly older (30's to middle aged, its older compared to the vast population of students that are 18 to their 20's) people and a few seemingly student recruits. They hand out thier propgadna daily, it seems rediculous. As much as they demand to be heard and respected, their material and members do no respect to me. Its like an affront to my intelligence, and their volunteers are uneducated and hypocrites.

Today's flyer explained in a non-sequiter way how police are responsible for killing people, and sending them to prison, leading to poor lives down the road. Then it suddenly jumped to communism, and that it somehow fixes everything (without mentioning how) because everyone works for the common good, and Bob Avakian and his communist party makes everything magical, unicorns and rainbows everywhere. Its meant to be a purely emotional argument without a hint of logic to it, and its honestly insulting.

When one of their members was asked by another individual, "How does communism fix police?" the man replied first said "Are you going to listen to me and hear me out?" then said something like "Because this is a police state, which is caused by capitalism, don't you see?" Which seems to be the same non-sequiter from the flier. When asked what prevents an individual from killing someone else and doing similar things, when there are no police, the man rudely scoffed and said "This discussion is over." Having demanded to be heard out, he wouldn't actually offer a rebuttal. Even worse, he either did not respect the person enough to give him an answer, or he couldn't actually come up with one, and then scoffed at the person for his own fault.

This kind of propaganda is really rediculous, as well as having members like this. If anything it makes them look unintelligent, and as the other person put it "You're f***ing crazies and f***ing hypocrites." I can not imagine anyone would actually be able to follow through with their sort of logic unless they were joining a brainwashing cult. I seriously want to know if this is what they actually beleive, or if its just some group of people giving them a bad name. I'm willing to give them a fair chance, but what I've seen is wholely unimpressive.

While googling for a forum relating to this, this one was the closest I could find since it mentioned the two men. However I can not find a discussion forum on their websites, which seems to ironically be called revcom(for one way communication only) and revtalk(for one way discussion only), seemingly not the kind of leftists that like to promote free discussion. Does anyone know where I can find a forum for them, if they have one at all?

I apologise in advance for what will certainly not be an intelligent enough argument for your advanced brain.

However the only mistake they made at all was assuming you were a compassionate and decent human being that feels some of those weak, unintelligent human emotions for the communities that live under an occupation of murderous police thugs. What did you want on that flyer? Footnotes?

If you don't hate the bastards who put people out of their homes and shoot disloyal minorities on sight, then no amount of explaining will work. Obviously communists need to target the demographic who understand these issues and not waste time on superior beings such as yourself.

Now go take a ski trip or whatever it is you people do.

[#FF0000]

I'm sort of irritated by a lot of the responses here.

Anyway, yeah sometimes individual activists can be rude. Don't worry about it too much.

And no, I don't think the RCP has a forum, at least not an active one.

[chegitz guevara]

So many responses in this thread prove why the left remains isolated and tiny. :thumbdown:

[PRC-UTE]

I'm sort of irritated by a lot of the responses here.

Anyway, yeah sometimes individual activists can be rude. Don't worry about it too much.

And no, I don't think the RCP has a forum, at least not an active one.

stop neg reping me because you love anti-communist well off elitist liberal pricks.

[leggy leftist]

I saw Lotta speak at UC Berkeley, and he was great. There were many folks in the audience who were clueless about communism, and he was respectful when these people asked questions. Some of the comments and questions directed to him were the standard propaganda lines we've all heard before. He debunked so much of the propaganda that is out there about the USSR and the Cultural Revolution.

I didn't know much about the RCP so I bought a bunch of their literature. I'm really glad I had the opportunity to hear him speak. And I recommend it if he is in your area. :)

[bailey_187]

Are any of these Lotta speeches online?
I know theres small clips on youtube, but is there anything longer?

I hope he comes to the UK to do a tour. Some RCP guy i met in London said they are trying to get him over here

[Kayser_Soso]

Not everyone makes a good activist. Obviously the RCP has a problem with cadre training and discipline.

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Not everyone makes a good activist. Obviously the RCP has a problem with cadre training and discipline.

and with Avakian's cult of personality.

[Kassad]

Not everyone makes a good activist. Obviously the RCP has a problem with cadre training and discipline.

Or maybe it's just their completely idealistic and absurd ideological line?

[Kayser_Soso]

Or maybe it's just their completely idealistic and absurd ideological line?

It's been a long time since I read any of their literature, and I haven't met any of them face to face since I am outside the US. So I cannot write authoritatively on this matter.

[Bill Hadnot]

Are any of these Lotta speeches online?
I know theres small clips on youtube, but is there anything longer?

I hope he comes to the UK to do a tour. Some RCP guy i met in London said they are trying to get him over here
justin dot tv slash cclarkk - video 9/29/09

revolutionbooksnyc dot org slash Lotta4-23-09.mp3 - audio 4/23/09

Also, Raymond Lotta is a frequent guest on the Michael Slate Show at kpfk in Los Angeles that airs Fridays at 10am PST. Mp3s can be obtained at redfuture dot com or the kpfk archive.

There's also going to be a talk on 12/15 at Revolution Books in NYC by him called "The Elephant in the Room: Can Anything Short of Revolution Solve the Environmental Crisis?" which will be webcast as well.

[Hiero]

First for an introduction, I am a college student at UCLA, and while left enough to be called socialist (which isn't very left now days), I'm not sure I really fit into that category, as for various reasons, I think a capitalism and a democracy can function for the people with certain reforms that do not call for a complete revolution, or new governmental system. I am not here to debate it though, since I will admit I am not that educated in terms of politics, and I am sure all of you have very good reasons.

What do you study at uni?

What I have come to realise is that in activisms heyday, alot of people such as industrial unionist, students, community activists, and ideological activists (thoose who adhere to an ideaology, Marxism-Leninism, Anarchism etc) develop tight communities for themselves.

Ways in gauging activism was by looking within the community. Alot of times real politics (what was happening in the real world) was replaced with politics inside the community, such as which group was fighting with this or that group. I think this lead to a social arkwardness that you experinced.

Generally people within this leftists community often talk about the working class and The People in very abstract terms. Especially what I see from the RCP-USA, who still envisage a mass revolution where the masses are going to run to the RCP-USA to learn commmunist slogans. So they imagine a revolutionary working class in a contigent form that is going to swallow their propaganda.

The explanation between what the capitalist police are and the tranformation of society into communism is alot of theory. There is an answer, it just can not be explained through agitation. Propoganda only works when at the moment the people will agree without further question at the time. So handing out propaganda to uni students that is anti- education fees will work good with uni students. Handing out propaganda about police to people in university is probally not going to work as they may not have a problem with the police and will ask further questions. Thye wont just go "anything but this!".

Certian groups still have a hang over from the activists days of last centuary, and still assume there is going to be a mass movement soon. So in that belief they have assumed that uni students are going extend out fruastrations with communities who have problems with the police (like they did in the 60s and 70s) and be anti-police. In their warped view anyone who asks furhter investigative questions must be conservative.

[Intelligitimate]

I have encountered many RCP-USA people and looked at some of their literature and DVDs. They are clearly a cult. I've walked into their book stores to be greeted with the phrase "Have you heard about Bob Avakian?" I couldn't help but laugh at the poor girl. I was at a protest with them recently and they were handing out this ridiculous flier titled "The Revolution We Need. The Leadership We Have." Here are some quotes from it:


In Bob Avakian, the Chairman of our Party, we have the kind of rare and precious leader who does not come along very often. A leader who has given his heart, and all his knowledge, skills and abilities to serving the cause of revolution and the emancipation of humanity.

From talking to Mike Ely, who is also a complete shitbag mindyou, this was a very conscious decision taken by Avakian to push this cult around him. Clearly it appears to be working, as the US is just days away from the People's War Avakian is gonna lead us in...

Talking with them about their line and tactics, it is clear they are ultra-Left. In the same pamphlet they push radical atheism (before telling you what a great guy Bob is, of course) and apparently actively do work around this, judging from their emails I receive. They are radically anti-Cuba, anti-DPRK, anti-China, anti-Chavez, anti-FARC, etc. This is clear from talking to them and reading their literature. They were also anti-homosexual until about 5-6 years ago. I guess when Avakian turned the RCP-USA into a cult, he finally delt with that shitastic line, only three decades after the Stonewall Riots.

They also are actively hostile to other groups and will actually try to provoke you. They have done this to me and another comrade I witnessed. I'm sure other people have similar experiences. It seems to be their policy to basically fuck with the people other groups have, probably on the assumption they might be able to take them away by appearing to be even more "radical."

They're a terrible cult that will never lead the masses in revolution. Their book stores are nice for picking up cheap Marxist-Leninist classiscs, as they no longer value these books.

[Comrade B]

Oops- Was thinking of the mini-cult of Ted Grant...
Sorry
Yeah, these dudes are kinda... wrong...

[Kassad]

Oops- Was thinking of the mini-cult of Ted Grant...
Sorry
Yeah, these dudes are kinda... wrong...

I really don't think the International Marxist Tendency has a cult around Ted Grant anymore than my party has a cult around Sam Marcy. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging and admiring theoretical contributions of influential Marxists and applying their theories to modern concepts, but that doesn't make it cultish. It becomes cult-like when you say things like 'communism is hanging by a thread -- that thread is Bob Avakian.' Stuff like that makes it appear that the international communist movement lives and dies by the words of Bob Avakian, which suggests that the proletariat is not capable of leading a revolution without his guidance. Of course, we know this to be ridiculous, but it's necessary to distinguish between cultish admiration of certain persons and theoretical admiration.

[redwinter]

Are any of these Lotta speeches online?
I know theres small clips on youtube, but is there anything longer?

I hope he comes to the UK to do a tour. Some RCP guy i met in London said they are trying to get him over here

Hey bailey (and others), I saw that someone mentioned that Raymond Lotta will be doing a live online webcast on Tuesday, December 15th, 2009 @ 7PM (New York time) and you can check it out by going to the Revolution Books NYC website: http://www.revolutionbooksnyc.org/

Here's the blurb from Revolution Books NYC on the event:
December 15, Tuesday, 7pm
"The Elephant in the Room: Can Anything Short of Revolution Solve the Environmental Crisis?" (http://www.revolutionbooksnyc.org/) http://www.revolutionbooksnyc.org/Lottapic2.jpg (http://www.revolutionbooksnyc.org/)
A Talk by Raymond Lotta on the "climate threat, Copenhagen, and why capitalism is utterly incompatible with sustainable development." This talk will be simultaneously webcast. Information on how to log on will be posted here.
(http://www.revolutionbooksnyc.org/)


Also, a report from a symposium on the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution in China where Raymond Lotta spoke last month (11/2009): http://www.revcom.us/a/184/symposium_report-en.html



(http://www.revolutionbooksnyc.org/)

[btpound]

Hi, I wasn't really sure where to post this, but it seems like this is the place for stupid questions.

First for an introduction, I am a college student at UCLA, and while left enough to be called socialist (which isn't very left now days), I'm not sure I really fit into that category, as for various reasons, I think a capitalism and a democracy can function for the people with certain reforms that do not call for a complete revolution, or new governmental system. I am not here to debate it though, since I will admit I am not that educated in terms of politics, and I am sure all of you have very good reasons.

What does bother me however, is the activists. Recently, a fair number of mostly older (30's to middle aged, its older compared to the vast population of students that are 18 to their 20's) people and a few seemingly student recruits. They hand out thier propgadna daily, it seems rediculous. As much as they demand to be heard and respected, their material and members do no respect to me. Its like an affront to my intelligence, and their volunteers are uneducated and hypocrites.

Today's flyer explained in a non-sequiter way how police are responsible for killing people, and sending them to prison, leading to poor lives down the road. Then it suddenly jumped to communism, and that it somehow fixes everything (without mentioning how) because everyone works for the common good, and Bob Avakian and his communist party makes everything magical, unicorns and rainbows everywhere. Its meant to be a purely emotional argument without a hint of logic to it, and its honestly insulting.

When one of their members was asked by another individual, "How does communism fix police?" the man replied first said "Are you going to listen to me and hear me out?" then said something like "Because this is a police state, which is caused by capitalism, don't you see?" Which seems to be the same non-sequiter from the flier. When asked what prevents an individual from killing someone else and doing similar things, when there are no police, the man rudely scoffed and said "This discussion is over." Having demanded to be heard out, he wouldn't actually offer a rebuttal. Even worse, he either did not respect the person enough to give him an answer, or he couldn't actually come up with one, and then scoffed at the person for his own fault.

This kind of propaganda is really rediculous, as well as having members like this. If anything it makes them look unintelligent, and as the other person put it "You're f***ing crazies and f***ing hypocrites." I can not imagine anyone would actually be able to follow through with their sort of logic unless they were joining a brainwashing cult. I seriously want to know if this is what they actually beleive, or if its just some group of people giving them a bad name. I'm willing to give them a fair chance, but what I've seen is wholely unimpressive.

While googling for a forum relating to this, this one was the closest I could find since it mentioned the two men. However I can not find a discussion forum on their websites, which seems to ironically be called revcom(for one way communication only) and revtalk(for one way discussion only), seemingly not the kind of leftists that like to promote free discussion. Does anyone know where I can find a forum for them, if they have one at all?

Indeed it really is sad to see this kind of agitation done in the name of communists. In fact, communists stand for free discussion, free debate, and free criticism. Especially since the RCP is a Maoist group, and Mao gives special attention to the need for criticism.

I'll start by answering the question that started the incident, so you don't think that there just isn't an answer. Capitalism, as you probably realize being a suedo-socialist, requires competitions to live, since competition and private property are inseparable from each other. This competition not only exists between big capitalist, but every member of capitalist society. It creates a dog-eat-dog world, where even if you want to help people, it will be at great finacial expence. This condition alienates us from one another in a way that we begin to realte everyone to how they will benifit you personaly. It is this alienation, exeptional in a policemans situation being in a postion of power, that makes him see people, mostly black men, as a threat to his safety. So they kill indescriminately, because they have lost their value of human life as a result of living under capitalism. As far as the prision industrial complex, capitalism is constantly searching for new markets, like a fiend searching for their next fix. In america, the PIC developed as a reult of the end of slavery. They needed a new cheap labor force, so they began arresting black on trumpt up charges, and giving them exeptionally long sentances for their crimes. Since being a convict makes it difficult for you to find real work, moreso them than now, you turn to crime, and the cycle continues. Capitalist make money from the dope they sell, and again from their labor power in jail.

This would absolutely stop under socialism, because we are removing the profit incetive from society. All the productive forces become toward the benifit of the producers. Police would be under democratic control, not dictates from higher commanders. The police would have a union too, to control the conditions of their labor. It would be completely diffrent in so many profound ways.

I hate to hear about incidents like that though. Please understand that communism is not a buch of dumb student who are doing it because it is fashionable, but it is real people trying to make a real diffrence in the world with the only weapons they have. The RCP does some good work, I just hate hearing about how they alienate themselves from the rest of the people. I can't believe they would let them hand out flyers and not at least explain to them how to defend the arguement!