I need help with finding an ideology

[Tyrannosaurus Che]

I consider myself politically left of center, but I haven't found my exact ideology yet. I don't know whether I should be a liberal, a socialist, or a communist. However, I do know what kind of ideologies I do not like:

-Marxist communism. Every country that has attempted to implement a Marxist political system has turned into an impoverished shithole with a totalitarian government.
-Anarchism. I recall reading in Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs & Steel that societies without any kind of government, such as hunter-gatherer bands, have higher rates of violence than societies with some kind of government. This convinces me that some kind of government is necessary to maintain order.

Is there a good left-wing ideology out there that is neither Marxist nor anarchist?

[bcbm]

just read lots of things from different sources and figure it out for yourself. don't listen to ideology pimps.

[Tatarin]

-Marxist communism. Every country that has attempted to implement a Marxist political system has turned into an impoverished shithole with a totalitarian government.

Every marxist will disagree with you here. In fact, none of the systems came close to marxist communism.


-Anarchism. I recall reading in Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs & Steel that societies without any kind of government, such as hunter-gatherer bands, have higher rates of violence than societies with some kind of government. This convinces me that some kind of government is necessary to maintain order.

Anarchists and communists strive for the same goal: a world without government. Or at least, it would be a world where government means something completely different. And you can't compare hunter-gatherers to a future technological society in where many difficult works are rotated or automated by machines. It wouldn't even be "bands" of people, but a big global network of communes, each commune helping the other in whatever it is it wants. Think of it as a brain where every commune is a brain cell.


Is there a good left-wing ideology out there that is neither Marxist nor anarchist?

That implements real change to human society? No. You can try out social democracy, but it is almost completely dead, and is the slower liberalization of society than right-wing parties. What society needs is the abolishment of private property for a society in where people work together and without fear of being left behind.

Again, it depends on what kind of society you want. In contrast, I suggest you do listen to what other people say, or rather write, and then make up your mind. You can begin at www.marxists.org (http://www.marxists.org) and read works by anarchists, marxists, luxemburgists and every other ists there is on the left side.

[Drace]

OP,
You might want to look at Noam Chomsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_chomsky). His a libertarian socialist, an anarchist, criticizes capitalism and US imperialism, and is against the USSR.
His very popular at what he does too.



-Marxist communism. Every country that has attempted to implement a Marxist political system has turned into an impoverished shithole with a totalitarian government.

The Soviet Union pulled over 120 million peasants out of the middle ages and almost doubled the life expectancy.
There were government crimes but more atrocities have been commited by the United States and the capitalist regimes as a whole.

But to analyze the Soviet Union as a "totalitarian regime in which everyone was starving and being watched by the government" is ridiculous.


-Anarchism. I recall reading in Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs & Steel that societies without any kind of government, such as hunter-gatherer bands, have higher rates of violence than societies with some kind of government. This convinces me that some kind of government is necessary to maintain order.This is a fallacious comparison. The hunters and gatherers age took place in a completely different setting than modern governments. There are too many factors to consider. For one, vital resources such as food were scarce and so violence was important for survival. To say that the decline of violence under state governed societies is a result of the presence of the government itself is unfounded.
And anarchism will of course have some type of local government. Anarchism doesn't aim to establish a "free for all".

[StoneFrog]

Come to the left-communists we have cookies!

I think we all have found ourselves looking at these points, what the things i see you have noted i think is a bit of propaganda fed by the media. Anarchism is not this hunter gatherer ideology, it doesn't say get rid of our modern comforts such as computer cellphones etc.. but change the mean of production. Just because no one is telling you it needs to be done, doesn't mean its not going to be done. Both Anarchism and Communism strive to empower the people, and change the mentality of people. It is hard to say i am... all we can do is describe ourselves in general, Communism and Anarchism describe countless views on gaining the same goal, really Anarchism is just another form of Communism.

I would describe myself as an Council Communist, but that doesn't stop my from believing things outside those grounds of thought. We just describe ourselves in broad strokes, and attempting to pin ourselves to one ideology is what cripples the left. We all fight for the same thing, so whether you are a Communist or an Anarchist, you are my comrade!

[ArrowLance]

I consider myself politically left of center, but I haven't found my exact ideology yet. I don't know whether I should be a liberal, a socialist, or a communist. However, I do know what kind of ideologies I do not like:

-Marxist communism. Every country that has attempted to implement a Marxist political system has turned into an impoverished shithole with a totalitarian government.
-Anarchism. I recall reading in Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs & Steel that societies without any kind of government, such as hunter-gatherer bands, have higher rates of violence than societies with some kind of government. This convinces me that some kind of government is necessary to maintain order.

Is there a good left-wing ideology out there that is neither Marxist nor anarchist?

You don't sound like much of a leftist, yet anyway. You are probably just confused about Marxism and Anarchism, not really knowing what they are. Try reading Marx, and at least use something more than 'past communist states' as an example. You see, I don't agree with all of mainstream history on these states.

[Q]

I recommend to read some background on Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky and other revolutionaries. Many texts can be found on the Marxist Internet Archive (see my sig for the link). If you have more specific questions, ask them.

[GatesofLenin]

There is one called Leninism. You can read about it here: link Leninism is the application of Marxism in the age of imperialism. It is explicitly not anarchist. It is also a development over "pure" Marxism modeled for this age of imperialism. But decide for yourself.
Thanks for posting this comrade!

[Knight of Cydonia]

just read lots of things from different sources and figure it out for yourself. don't listen to ideology pimps.
this answer a lot of your question GatesofLenin:thumbup1:

[danny bohy]

It isnt neccesary to choose one Idealology. being part of the left involves thinking for yourself. read up on all the different idealogies, and find what morals and type of lifestyle you value most. if there is one logical choice for you go for it. if not just mix and match the best parts of different idealogies.

Also just because china, russia and N. korea weret perfect dosent mean that marxism will never work. the communist manifesto contains nothing about being totalitarian.

And anarchism is a state were you aim not to need laws and governments(idealistic i know) which is a point most people overlook.

[ComradeMan]

-Marxist communism. Every country that has attempted to implement a Marxist political system has turned into an impoverished shithole with a totalitarian government.

That's a fairly strong value judgement. So we who live in non-Marxist shitholes live in completely free societies with no poverty? Aren't 20 million Americans officially classified as "poor" bu the UN's poverty line? Do we not have totalitarian governments who send our young men off to be slaughtered in wars based on lies with no public mandate? -in fact, when the public actually show their massive disapproval of such actions?


-Anarchism. I recall reading in Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs & Steel that societies without any kind of government, such as hunter-gatherer bands, have higher rates of violence than societies with some kind of government. This convinces me that some kind of government is necessary to maintain order.

Where did you read that rubbish? Perhaps you should read about anarchist comunities and their, albeit shortlived, success. As for the other point:-

Hunter-gather groups do not have higher rates of violence than societies with some form of government. That's is complete nonsense. I admit you will find tribal warfare, you might even still find cannibalism in some places like New Guiniea but you should view that more in terms of the technological development of the given peoples and not that they are de facto violent in themselves because they have no form of state. In fact very small hunter-gatherer groups such as the San (bushmen) of Southern Africa have (had) a fairly non-hierarchical and gentle society in which many of the social ills that we experience were formerly unknown. As for Diamond himself, last I heard he was being sued by a tribe from New Guinea who claim he deliberately misrepresented them- have a look at this.

Baltar, Michael (15 May 2009). "‘Vengeance’ Bites Back At Jared Diamond". Science (American Association for the Advancement of Science) 324 (5929): 872-874. doi:10.1126/science.324_872. ISSN 1095-9203. .

It is a consistant lie by those who eschew government and the role of the state as the great "protector" of order etc, that an absence of government would plunge us all into some kind of apocalyptic dark age. They will go to no ends in trying to convince us that we actually need them, when the truth of the matter is far more that they need us.

You seem to be confusing the terms "state" , "government" and "administration"- something which Malatesta deals with in his "Anarchy".

As for the point about finding an ideology. Well, an ideology is not a package that you can be tailor made for your needs or whatever operating system you use!:) Perhaps you would do better to look inwards and ask yourself what do you really believe in the first place and then see who believes more or less the same things as you do.

[ZeroNowhere]

Eh, given the sense you're using the word 'Marxist', De Leonism (http://www.revleft.com/vb/de-leonismi-t100202/index.html?p=1341927#post1341927) may interest you. Another non-Marxist who may interest you is named Karl Marx, you may have heard of him.

[bailey_187]

-Marxist communism. Every country that has attempted to implement a Marxist political system has turned into an impoverished shithole with a totalitarian government

Absolutly not true. Most attempts to implement Socialism and Communism in the 20th century have lead to huge improvements for the workers in those countries. They (Socialism in USSR, Chine, Germany etc) have not been perfect, but have largley been succesful.
For example, in the 1970s the Communist half of Germany had the same per capita income as the Britain.

[mikelepore]

You know the old saying, don't marry an abusive person, with the assumption that the person will reform later -- fact is, what you start out with is probably what you will get in the long term. I think social systems are like that. Why was the Soviet Union undemocratic seventy years after the revolution? Because it was put together undemocratic on day-one after the revolution. The secret police making people disappear in the middle of the night, banning independent organizations and their newspapers, "elections" with one name on the ballot, etc. It all began from the first day. People have a habit of speaking as though the Soviet system had democratic control by the workers for some duration, and then something made it gradually "collapse" or "degrade." The phrase "turned into" in the original post is along that line. Baloney. That did not happen. The foundation was initially built wrong.

[Che Guevara]

"-Marxist communism. Every country that has attempted to implement a Marxist political system has turned into an impoverished shithole with a totalitarian government."

"However, I do know what kind of ideologies I do not like:"

Don't know if I would call any of the countries that attempted to 'implement' Marxist communism succeed. You agree with my statement by stating "attempted". Therefore, if I were you, I wouldn't say I neccesarily "do not like" this ideology.

I wouldn't come onto a forum with a broad range of perspectives on ideologies and ask for an ideology to 'follow'. If I were you, I'd read various books, and then decide on what you truly believe in.

Also, if you DO want to know what ideology to 'follow' you should probably list some of your perspectives on various topics.

[New Tet]

just read lots of things from different sources and figure it out for yourself. don't listen to ideology pimps.

Even hookers pray to God, man.


i·de·ol·o·gy (º”d¶-¼l“…-j¶, ¹d”¶-) n., pl. i·de·ol·o·gies. 1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, a group, a class, or a culture. 2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system. --i”de·ol“o·gist n.

[bcbm]

what?

[Tyrannosaurus Che]

I've made up my mind: I'm a libertarian socialist. It sounds the most democratic of any left-wing ideology I know of.

[Spawn of Stalin]

It's all well and good sounding democratic, but is it? Do some reading and don't be too hasty, I mean in the space of just two days you've gone from describing yourself as left of centre, to a libertarian socialist. You'll find that most Marxists, anarchists, Trotskyists, Maoists, etc. were all just socialists to begin with, so don't rush yourself.

[#FF0000]

There is really nothing wrong with just being a "communist" without subscribing to one of the many branches of it for awhile. Don't just rush to find an ideology. Give it time and think it over.

[New Tet]

I've made up my mind: I'm a libertarian socialist. It sounds the most democratic of any left-wing ideology I know of.

Can you tell us why it "sounds" that way to you?

[New Tet]

what?

That's exactly what came to mind when I read your "ideology pimp" remark: "Wha...?

[rosie]

Sounds like you haven't read enough actual theory or history. I would suggest reading some Howard Zinn, maybe Marx for Beginners and The Communist Manifesto. Also, Rosa Luxemburg and Trotsky are good sources of liturature that has been put into practical use throughout history. If you would be interested in learning about Anarchist theory, read Emma Goldman, and Peter Kropotkin. If you just google these philosphers you will get plenty of hits. Also, marxist.com is a pretty good place to check out reading material. I am saying this even though you said you didn't want to know about Marxism or Anarchism because your reasoning seemed very symptomatic of under-education or even general socialization. I'm not saying you should read this stuff and agree with everything, just read it and it will help you to decide whether or not you actually can call yourself "left". Also, keep in mind that the "left" is morally opposed to capitalism, due to it's anti-science, exploitative, and oppressive policies. If you generally agree with these basic fundamentals of lefty ideology, keep reading. If not, well, it was nice talking. :)

[rosie]

I feel the need to thank everyone who posted on this topic. I was starting to just click thanks on the ones I liked, and then realised they were all great. Good job, Comrades! And hey, no trolls yet (besides myself, but I'm being pleasant :)

[GatesofLenin]

this answer a lot of your question GatesofLenin:thumbup1:
I'm eager to learn, so that's a good thing. :D

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I consider myself politically left of center, but I haven't found my exact ideology yet. I don't know whether I should be a liberal, a socialist, or a communist. However, I do know what kind of ideologies I do not like:

-Marxist communism. Every country that has attempted to implement a Marxist political system has turned into an impoverished shithole with a totalitarian government.
-Anarchism. I recall reading in Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs & Steel that societies without any kind of government, such as hunter-gatherer bands, have higher rates of violence than societies with some kind of government. This convinces me that some kind of government is necessary to maintain order.

Is there a good left-wing ideology out there that is neither Marxist nor anarchist?

Tyrannosaurus, you shouldn't worry about attaching yourself to an ideology but you mustn't subscribe to those critiques of Marxism and Anarchism because they are simply incorrect. For one Anarchism isn't a hunter-gatherer ideology it is not about individualism it is about collective decision making and co-operation. I would argue Marxism has never been truly implemented in a country, the USSR and PRC were just deviations.

[bcbm]

That's exactly what came to mind when I read your "ideology pimp" remark: "Wha...?

what was unclear?

[New Tet]

what was unclear?

Apparently, to you, the part about hookers praying to God.

[The Deepest Red]

Is there a good left-wing ideology out there that [isn't] Marxist

Nope. Embrace Bolshevism. :D

[bcbm]

Apparently, to you, the part about hookers praying to God.

well, yes, i'm not sure of the point you're trying to make.

[R_P_A_S]

I consider myself politically left of center, but I haven't found my exact ideology yet. I don't know whether I should be a liberal, a socialist, or a communist. However, I do know what kind of ideologies I do not like:

-Marxist communism. Every country that has attempted to implement a Marxist political system has turned into an impoverished shithole with a totalitarian government.
-Anarchism. I recall reading in Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs & Steel that societies without any kind of government, such as hunter-gatherer bands, have higher rates of violence than societies with some kind of government. This convinces me that some kind of government is necessary to maintain order.

Is there a good left-wing ideology out there that is neither Marxist nor anarchist?

Stop trying to put a label on your beliefs. I feel that the surge of individualism that has sprung up ever since the 1930's with the creation of Public Relations and Marketing techniques even now socially conscious peoples feel to put a brand label on their ideology.

My advice is; never cease to learn, research and question all, take everything you are learning about justice and equality and apply it to your everyday life.