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Vargha Poralli
2nd December 2009, 06:20
(e) Self-determination and the Left

Rosa Luxemburg had argued against external self-determination, emphasising that State-formation belonged to the early, infant stage of national capitalist development and was neither relevant nor feasible in the context of capitalist imperialism which had become dominant by the first decade of the 20th century. Her political agenda was principally to prevent bourgeois forces from weakening of the world socialist revolution by segmenting the workers into an increasing number of capitalist States. Luxemburg’s formulation was a sanitised version of the earlier denial by Engels of the national rights of the so-called ‘non-historic peoples’, relatively small nations which were seen as obstructions to the growth of States into political units large enough to possess internal markets, create conditions for the growth of productive forces and catalyse capitalist class differentiation. The lunatic fringe of the European Left extended Luxemburg’s argument to oppose anti-colonial movements in Asia and Africa. The Left paid lip service to the colossal human and material costs paid, often in blood, by the colonised nations and peoples of Asia and Africa. But it was claimed by the extreme Left that the spread of European colonial empires and emergence of imperialism nevertheless are objective processes, which are economically integrating the working classes on a global scale and leading to the political unity among workers from different countries; and thereby creating the conditions for constructing the political superstructure of the world socialist revolution. Therefore, so the Left lunatic fringe asserted, anti-colonial movements for the independence of the colonised nations and peoples sought to reverse the global integration of working class, undermined worker’s unity and benefited largely the national and/or comprador bourgeoisie of the colonial territories and were, historically speaking, reactionary.

In contrast, Lenin sought to dismantle European colonial empires and weaken capitalist imperialism by striking at its weakest link - the colonial possessions - by encouraging external self-determination among the nations and peoples of colonial territories. However, while he in principle agreed with the right to self-determination including secession and incorporated it in the Soviet Constitution, he was less than enthusiastic about conceding in practice the right of external self-determination to the nations within the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR). Stalin was more forthright: he condemned national movements in USSR as bourgeois counter-revolution and repressed them with characteristic brutality.

Since the time of Luxemburg and Lenin, numerous new States have emerged on the world stage. Indeed, member-States of the United Nations increased from 26 in 1945 to 185 in 1997, an increase of 159 States (611%)! The empirical data had disproved Luxemburg and Stalin.

But, in the context of internal de-colonisation, almost all left-wing parties and activists buried their heads in the sand: they dogmatically opposed internal de-colonisation leading to external self-determination but pragmatically accepted the new States. Their ideological positions regarding national self-determination are variants based on the formulations of Luxemburg and Lenin. Those theoreticians loyal to Luxemburg typically invoked Stalin’s static and ahistoric definition of a nation in order to dismiss the demand made by a given cultural group for external self-determination as being invalid on grounds that the group did not constitute a nation and therefore was not entitled to an independent State. Others, who are the majority, relied on Lenin’s arguments: they formally recognised the right to national self-determination including secession but offered conditions in which the exercise of the right of secession would, they unilaterally asserted, become unnecessary.

The ideological stance of the Nava Sama Samaja Party (NSSP) in Sri Lanka is a case in point. According to its Politburo member Dr Sunil Ratnapriya, NSSP believes that ‘a unity can be preserved on the basis of the following principles.

Equality of all citizens (all racial, religious and communal discrimination should stop.) Full citizenship rights to all permanent residents. Autonomy for regions (every distinct set of people have the right to govern themselves). Right of self-determination (acceptance of the right of every nation over its destiny, unity should be entirely on a voluntary basis). On this basis we [NSSP] have put forward the following programme to resolve the N-E conflict.

Right of secession be included in the constitution in order to make it absolutely clear that unity is based on [the] voluntary decision of both parties. That will express very clearly the inalienable right of Sri Lankan Tamils to a homeland in this country. Also, it means that no one dominates and that there is unenforced, uncoaxed and ungrudging unity. Equality and end of discrimination in citizenship, jobs, education, land allocation, etc. and particularly in the national armed forces. Granting of citizenship to all Kandyan Tamils. Autonomy for Tamil speaking areas with powers over regional security or police functions, colonisation and education, etc. Home guards or defence militias for minorities in other areas. Right to use Tamil in dealing with the Central Government. Fair share of national income to develop Tamil areas.’ The NSSP’s policy on the Tamil Question aims to establish ‘a unity’. It may be assumed that the NSSP, being a member of the Fourth International, is keen to unify the working classes of the Tamil and Sinhalese nations rather than unite the bourgeoisie of the two nations. But it is obvious that if the Tamil-Sinhalese workers unity is to be realised within an undivided Sri Lankan socialist State in the future, then it is necessary in the present to ensure that the two bourgeois classes stand together, either ideally as partners or more realistically under the political hegemony of the Sinhalese bourgeoisie, to preserve the existing Sinhalese-controlled State.

Consequently, it is in the interest of the NSSP to de-legitimise the Tamil national liberation movement. This was attempted by proposing ‘equality of all citizens’, offering ‘autonomy for regions’ and recognising the ‘right to self-determination’ as the three principles. It must be emphasised none of the three principles accepted the right of the Tamil nation to its own, independent State. Moreover, by using the conveniently vague term ‘autonomy’, the NSSP assured its chauvinist Sinhalese constituency that the party will not concede a federal or confederal system, which are pathologically opposed by the Sinhalese but consistently demanded by the Tamils as alternatives to an independent Tamil State. At the same time, by ‘autonomy’ the NSSP disingenuously implied the prospect of at least a federal alternative in order to satisfy its minority Tamil members and husband Tamil electoral support.

The issue of an independent Tamil State is dealt with in the first of the five-point programme: reference was made to the ‘right of secession’ not because it is the inalienable and unconditional right of a nation but, rather, as a means to achieve ‘a unity’. The ‘right of secession’ is to be included in a future constitution not to permit the Tamil people to secede. On the contrary, the provision is calculated hopefully to make the demand for external self-determination redundant: hence the first point refers to ‘a homeland’ rather than an independent Tamil Eelam.

Evidently to buttress what the NSSP believes is its hold on the moral high-ground, the first point promised ‘unenforced, uncoaxed and ungrudging unity’ between the Tamil and Sinhalese nations without domination of the former by the latter. The NSSP then blithely offered ‘autonomy’ - not federalism - for the Tamils in the third point.

The schematic alternative to external self-determination by Tamils was of course an abstract formulation constructed by the NSSP entirely on paper. It was used by the NSSP to legitimise its opposition to the ideology and objectives of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), the cutting-edge of the concrete Tamil national liberation movement, on grounds that it is offering a progressive alternative to the LTTE’s demand for external self-determination, that it is the political rejection of, and not a chauvinist reaction to, Tamil nationalism. Through a circuitous route, the NSSP arrived at the same conclusion as that held by the Sinhalese bourgeoisie: that the nebulous ‘unity’ must be preserved.

What if the Tamil nation as a whole, including the vast majority of its workers and peasants, support the struggle for an independent Tamil Eelam? The Sinhalese bourgeoisie conjured up ‘threats’ to national sovereignty. The NSSP arrogated to itself the right to decide that the Tamil working classes are victims of ‘false consciousness’ - Tamil nationalism - which allegedly prevented them from realising the objective interests they have in common with Sinhalese working classes. To overcome false consciousness, the NSSP invited the Tamil working classes to be united with the Sinhalese working classes as equal partners and struggle together against imperialism. What if the Tamil nation as a whole, in exercising its right to self-determination, prefers instead a separate and independent Tamil State? The response of NSSP members is to imperiously mouth vacuous slogans that the Tamil working classes have nothing to gain by creating a Tamil bourgeois State. In this way the NSSP concurred with the Sinhalese bourgeoisie: that if Tamils do not voluntarily agree to unity with Sinhalese, the LTTE-led Tamil national liberation movement must be defeated.

What if the Tamil working classes believe, in the context of national oppression and class exploitation within a bourgeois State, that they suffer double oppression as Tamils and as workers? What if they consider that it is more realistic to form a national alliance with the Tamil bourgeoisie to resolve the national contradiction in order to eliminate national oppression, rather than attempt to re-build the class alliance with the Sinhalese working classes which was eroded by Sinhalese nationalism? These conditions induced the Tamil working classes to ally with the Tamil bourgeoisie to form a cross-class national alliance which is the class basis of the Tamil national liberation movement. This is an instance of ‘external class struggle’, the political struggle between the oppressor Sinhalese bourgeoisie external to the Tamil nation on the one hand and the national alliance of classes within the Tamil nation on the other hand. The concept of ‘external class struggle’ is the product of enlightened Marxist-Leninist analysis of class contradictions underlying the present-day processes of internal de-colonisation; it posits the progressive, general democratic content of the demand for external self-determination and underlines the crucial role the Left must play in supporting internal de-colonisation and facilitating external self-determination of nations and peoples.

But the NSSP’s seems blissfully unaware of the intensifying external class struggle between the Tamil national alliance and the Sinhalese bourgeoisie. The party’s explicit response to the demand for external self-determination made by the Tamil national alliance is to project a utopian socialist society devoid of national and class oppressions in which the demand would not arise. The party’s implicit position is that unity must be preserved; if the Tamil working classes refuse to be united with the Sinhalese working classes, they must be compelled - if necessary by the use of military force - into a union with the latter irrespective of the costs in loss of lives and destruction of property. It is a position which is not dissimilar to the cynical formulation employed by the United States government to defend the carpet-bombing of northern Vietnam: ‘better dead than red’.

The NSSP’s bankrupt political response to the Tamil national liberation struggle amply demonstrates the ideological straight-jacket donned by the Left in general, by dogmatically positing the inflexible primacy of the development of the forces of production. The Left in general reacted with considerable ambivalence to the processes of State-formation through external de-colonisation during the second half of the 20th century. The scale of State-formation through internal de-colonisation anticipated by Mr Boutros Boutros Gali and most Political Geographers, given that such predictions of the future invariably understate the extent of change, is likely to further marginalise the Left well into the 21st century.

(f) The task ahead

Recent manoeuvres by some sections of the Left to outflank national liberation movements are more sophisticated. The Left theoreticians formally conceded the right to external self-determination but have insisted that the national liberation movement must articulate a credible post-liberation political agenda of social transformation, which would combat gender oppression and class exploitation in the social formation within the new State. The tactic is to demand that the liberation movement commits itself to an almost utopian agenda and then withhold support for the movement on grounds that shortcomings in its agenda indicate that the movement’s victory will not significantly advance the interests of women and workers. However, support cannot be qualified by the post-liberation agenda for the obvious reason that the social transformation after liberation will be defined by the dialectic of class and gender relations and conditioned by historically given cultural parameters.

It is not uncommon to come across feminist arguments rejecting national liberation as a ‘male dominated, female served’ political project, which allegedly aimed to replace male oppressors of the external oppressing nation with male oppressors from within the oppressed nation. In short, Tamil women, for example, are expected to conclude that they stand to gain nothing substantial by way of relief from gender oppression by supporting the LTTE-led Tamil liberation movement. However the Sri Lankan armed are not know to display a nuanced approach to the Tamil population informed by the above feminist arguments: when the armed forces stomp into a Tamil village they do not target only the males claiming that national liberation is ‘male dominated, female served’. Rather the Sinhalese soldiers are more likely to rape the Tamil women in front of their men and then kill the men. Thus Tamil women in general are convinced that they are as much victims of national oppression as are Tamil men and insist on shouldering an equal share of the burden of the Tamil liberation movement.



Source (http://www.tamilcanadian.com/page.php?cat=120&id=646)

I would like to discuss this entire article but unfortunately it could be very long. So I have highlighted some parts which I consider important in bold. I would like to have a critic from all marxist currents against the bolded parts.Anarchists are also welcomed but please avoid making cheap score against other currents. The crux of the debate is very much important for our movement.

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This article's source is from Tamil Canadian which is an supporter of recently annihilated LTTE. Which is an petty bourgeoisie nationalists and middle class intellectual organisation which I consider dug its own graveyard along with self determination of Tamils by its barbaric practices and violence it carried out against the very people it fought and died for.

Criticism of LTTE is irrelevant for this thread. The artice has grain of truth in it specifically how an organisation like LTTE without a mass movement behind it managed to get popular support among the most oppressed of all Tamils in this case the working class and landless peasants.

The point of me posting this article is the overall point it had made in the context of struggle for Independent Eelam in Srilanka. Especially the actions of the NSSP a Trotskyist organisation whose founders fought in the Independce struggle for India in radical lines when Stalinist CPI was scabbing on behalf of Stalintern who was allied with the British Imperialism at that time.Its action definitely lead to many splits within it and severely weakened the party both among the Sinhalese and Tamils. The same can be said with "Marxist-Leninist" JVP which openly opposed self determination of Tamils in the name of "Working Class Unity" .

It is the failure of LSSP to take a solid stance against sinhalese chauvinism and in favour of full self determination of Tamils led to the creation of Tamil Nationalist movement - non violent at the beginning until the rise of Tamil Militant groups.

LSSPs stance is very much similar to what left communists stance in this board.

The actions of all currents especially in Indian Subcontinent is not different from what the Left communists propose only differnce is that unlike left communists they pay lip service to National self determination.

For Trotskyists and Stalinists - we cannot just wash our hands on the actions of NSSP and JVP by claiming them as Pabloite and Revisionist. They justified their actions in the name of unity of the working class.

What alternative we have for the working class of the oppressed nationalities and how are we going to provide them ?


Thanks in advance.Apologies for errors if any present.

Devrim
2nd December 2009, 10:30
LSSPs stance is very much similar to what left communists stance in this board.

I don't think that it is at all. Left communists aren't supportive of bourgeois states. When we criticise national liberation movements on this board, it causes controversy, and people want to argue against it. When, for example, the ICC in Turkey criticises the Turkish state nobody raises an eyebrow, so it doesn't really get mentioned, but let's be very clear, we think that the Turkish army is not in anyway preferable to the PKK, and if only in terms of its size resources, and power, is more barbaric, and anybody reading our press in Turkey would be very aware of that.

Devrim

ls
2nd December 2009, 15:17
I don't think that it is at all. Left communists aren't supportive of bourgeois states. When we criticise national liberation movements on this board, it causes controversy, and people want to argue against it. When, for example, the ICC in Turkey criticises the Turkish state nobody raises an eyebrow, so it doesn't really get mentioned, but let's be very clear, we think that the Turkish army is not in anyway preferable to the PKK, and if only in terms of its size resources, and power, is more barbaric, and anybody reading our press in Turkey would be very aware of that.

Devrim

Or translating one or more of those links your signature, unfortunately no one seems to bother doing that.


The actions of all currents especially in Indian Subcontinent is not different from what the Left communists propose only differnce is that unlike left communists they pay lip service to National self determination.

This is completely weird and confusing, please can you clarify what you mean by this.

Random Precision
2nd December 2009, 16:20
This is completely weird and confusing, please can you clarify what you mean by this.

I think he means that in practice all the significant leftist parties on the Indian subcontinent are in principle against the self-determination of oppressed nationalities, such as the Tamil struggle in Sri Lanka, justifying it with abstractions about "working-class unity". He says this is the same position that left-communists take. I think the positions may be the same in form but not in substance. Left communists I think argue against participating in national movements because they genuinely believe in creating the unity of workers across national lines. I think this position is very idealistic, nevertheless it is principled. Groups like the NSSP on the other hand are opposed to the right of oppressed nations to self determination because they have in practice bowed to the prevailing Sinhalese chauvinism. I think though that this position, whatever the justification is, "is likely to further marginalise the Left well into the 21st century" as the article says.

Anyway this is a very interesting article and its claims need more time for me to address than I am currently able to give them. I'll try to get back to it in the next few days.

Vargha Poralli
3rd December 2009, 00:11
I don't think that it is at all. Left communists aren't supportive of bourgeois states. When we criticise national liberation movements on this board, it causes controversy, and people want to argue against it. When, for example, the ICC in Turkey criticises the Turkish state nobody raises an eyebrow, so it doesn't really get mentioned, but let's be very clear, we think that the Turkish army is not in anyway preferable to the PKK, and if only in terms of its size resources, and power, is more barbaric, and anybody reading our press in Turkey would be very aware of that.

Devrim

I think you misunderstood me.

I am not talking about bourgeoisie states. I am talking about the class in general. Could you give information about Turkish CPs stance in Kurdish struggle ? Also on other minorities position ? Also the (Turkish) working class's general attitude in this question ? I would also like your opinion about first and second paragraphs I have quoted.


Or translating one or more of those links your signature, unfortunately no one seems to bother doing that.



This is completely weird and confusing, please can you clarify what you mean by this.

RP summarised it well. Adding to his post NSSP/LSSP came from leninist tradition and had been deeeply commited to Lenin's stance on nationality question but while supporting that question in paper they refused to lend support to self determination of Tamils. Opposing it didn't help them either in winning over Sinhalese workers. The latter were driven to the chauvinist madness by Sinhalese Politicians against which LSSP had nothing to offer.

RP is wrong in certain way to say that LSSP/NSSP positions were inspired by Sinhalese Chauvinism. In their origins they have always stood for equality of all Citizens regardless of Nationality. (http://www.dailynews.lk/2007/12/24/fea02.asp) Statement of Colin Desilva one of the early memebrs " You can have 1 language and 2 nations if you want 1 nation you should have 2 languages" shows their early commitment to the self determination of Tamils.

But when a crucial moment came the party didn't have backbone it had on its early days. It is their strength and popularity among the Tamil and Sinhalese workers which drove the Sinhalese Bourgeoise to chauvinist position.

I think to understand my intention of posting this article I would have to provide more information regarding the national question in the subcontinent. I promise I would do that in 1 or 2 days after collecting sufficient data both online and offline.

In the mean time I would request you to read the stuff I have posted and try to give your opinion on it.

blake 3:17
3rd December 2009, 01:40
There's a lot going on here. I'm a bit engrossed in Rosa Luxemburg at present, and love and admire her work and thought. I think she's wrong on nationalism.

I'm in Toronto, which I think has one of the highest Tamil populations in the world. The protests against the Sinhalese terroristic wars were very inspiring. There hav been significant shifts in Tamil Canadian attitudes towards the LTTE, which I don't really understand, other than the Tigers are really effective force at the moment.

I don't know enough to speak with much authority, but I would tend to agree with with the author of the piece.

Niccolò Rossi
3rd December 2009, 08:36
Vargha, I assume that you agree with the bulk of this article. All that I can say is that it is garbage.

"Luxemburg’s formulation was a sanitised version of the earlier denial by Engels of the national rights of the so-called ‘non-historic peoples’, relatively small nations which were seen as obstructions to the growth of States into political units large enough to possess internal markets, create conditions for the growth of productive forces and catalyse capitalist class differentiation." - No, Luxemburg's positions was distinct from that held by Marx and Engels. Calling it 'sanitised' is just baseless name-calling. More than this, contrary to the moralism of the author here, the method of Marx and Engels in their evaluation of the national question in the era of ascedant capitalism in which they lived was entirely correct.

"The lunatic fringe of the European Left extended Luxemburg’s argument to oppose anti-colonial movements in Asia and Africa." - More empty name-calling. The so-called 'lunatic left' did not extend Luxemburg's position, we hold the same position.

"But it was claimed by the extreme Left that the spread of European colonial empires and emergence of imperialism nevertheless are objective processes, which are economically integrating the working classes on a global scale and leading to the political unity among workers from different countries; and thereby creating the conditions for constructing the political superstructure of the world socialist revolution. Therefore, so the Left lunatic fringe asserted, anti-colonial movements for the independence of the colonised nations and peoples sought to reverse the global integration of working class, undermined worker’s unity and benefited largely the national and/or comprador bourgeoisie of the colonial territories and were, historically speaking, reactionary." - Here we have a lot of things jumbled together. Capitalist expansion into corners of the globe which were still dominated by pre-capitalist social relations has always been viewed by Marxism as a historically progressive process. This position was not an invention of the communist left. More than this, this position meant in no way an indifferance to or support for this process. The recognition by the communist left of the anti-worker nature of national liberation movements in terms of undermining the unity of the working class by enrolling it in support of their respective national bourgeoisies is distinct from the above, contrary to the stalineque amalgation made by the article.

Also, it has to be remembered that contrary to the claims by the article, it is not the communist left which has the blood of the colonised peoples on it's hands, but those who in the name of socialism called on workers to butcher one another in defense of their national bourgeoisies.

"Indeed, member-States of the United Nations increased from 26 in 1945 to 185 in 1997, an increase of 159 States (611%)! The empirical data had disproved Luxemburg..." - Er, what?

Also, I agree with the point made by Devrim and Random Precision. I don't think the position of the LSSP on the Tamil national question had anything to do with authentic proletarian internationalism and it is incorrect to equate them with the communist left on this point.

In response to the question of 'What alternative we have for the working class of the oppressed nationalities?' The same posed to the entire working class: Socialism or Barbarism.

Devrim
3rd December 2009, 09:25
Could you give information about Turkish CPs stance in Kurdish struggle?
The Turkish CP is on the verge of open social chauvinism. During the last Turkish invasion of Northern Iraq, their slogan was, "We won't let the US divide our country" referring to the US supporting Kurdish nationalism.

There was a march 'against' the war* in Ankara where I live. There was a lot of people shouting about getting US imperialism out of the Middle East, but people who raised the slogan US Turkish imperialism out of Iraq, were told by the march organisers that this was not an acceptable slogan.


Also on other minorities position?

In some ways Turkey is a country of minorities. It was at one point the crossroads of the world. There has been a lot of assimilation though and some minorities have been almost completely assimilated, and there was large scale population transfers (read 'ethnic cleansing' after the Liberation War'. Wiki says this:


The word Turk or Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_%28disambiguation%29) also has a wider meaning in a historical context because, at times, especially in the past, it has been used to refer to all Muslim inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) irrespective of their ethnicity.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Turkey#cite_note-17) The question of ethnicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity) in modern Turkey is a highly debated and difficult issue. Figures published in several different sources prove this difficulty by varying greatly. It is necessary to take into account all these difficulties and be cautious while evaluating the ethnic groups. A possible list of ethnic groups living in Turkey could be as follows:[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Turkey#cite_note-18)


Turkic-speaking peoples: Anatolian Turkics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people), Karakalpaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakalpaks), Turkmens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmens), Kazakhs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhs), Kumyks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumyks), Yörüks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%C3%B6r%C3%BCk), Uzbeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbeks), Crimean Tatars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars), Azeris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeris_in_Turkey), Balkars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkars), Uyghurs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people), Karachays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karachays).
Indo-European-speaking peoples: Kurds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people), Zazas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaza_people), Armenians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians), Hamshenis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamshenis), Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks)
Semitic-speaking peoples: Arabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_in_Turkey), Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey), and Assyrians/Syriacs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriacs_in_Turkey)
Caucasian-speaking peoples: Georgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_people), Lazs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_people), Circassians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians), and Chechens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_people)
Other Muslim groups originally from the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) (Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians), Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians), Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Muslims), Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs), Croats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats), Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians) and Bosniaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks)): These people migrated to Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia) during the Ottoman Era and have been assumed to accept Turkish-Muslim identity.
Cossacks in Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks_in_Turkey) (mostly left Turkey by 1962)
Others: There are small groups and individuals from all over the world living in Turkey, either remnants of past migrations (there is for instance a village near the Bosphorus named Adampol in Polish, Polonezköy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonezk%C3%B6y), "the Polish village", in Turkish) or witnesses of contemporary mass migrations towards the European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) and its periphery (there are also illegal migrants camps with thousands of Africans and others intercepted while trying to embark, or swimming from the wreckage of overpopulated small boats, for the Greek or Italian shores).

Proving the difficulty of classifying the ethnicities of the population of Turkey, there are as many classifications as the number of scientific attempts to make these classifications. Turkey is not unique in this respect; many other European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) countries (e.g. France, Germany) also bear a great ethnic diversity that defies classification. The immense variation observed in the published figures for the percentages of Turkish people living in Turkey (ranging from 75 to 97%) simply reflects differences in the methods used to classify the ethnicities, with a main factor being the choice of whether to exclude or include Kurds. Complicating the matter even more is the fact that the last official and country-wide classification of spoken languages (which do not exactly coincide with ethnic groups) in Turkey was performed in 1965; many of the figures published after that time are very loose estimates.
According to a 2008 report prepared for the National Security Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Council_%28Turkey%29) of Turkey by academics of three Turkish universities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_universities) in eastern Anatolia, there were approximately 55 to 60 million ethnic Turks, 10 million Kurds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds) (including 1,5 million Zazas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaza)), 2 million Circassians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians) (Adyghe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_people)), 2 million Bosniaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks), 1,3 million Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albani), 800,000 Laz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz), 0,5 million Georgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians), 870,000 Arabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs), 700,000 Roma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people), 600,000 Pomaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomak), 60,000 Armenians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians), 20,000 Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews), 15,000 Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) and 13,000 Hemshins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemshinli) living in Turkey.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Turkey#cite_note-19)



Also the (Turkic) working class's general attitude in this question?

Turkey is a very nationalist country, and there is a lot of anti-Kurdish feeling. The working class is very much a part of that.


I would also like your opinion about first and second paragraphs I have quoted.

Nic has commented on those now. I agree with his points.

Devrim

*Actually the march had already been organised around other issues, and a bit about the war was tacked onto it.

ls
3rd December 2009, 16:52
Vargha when you say "..the (Turkic) working class's general attitude in this question ?" isn't it a broad thing to ask. You are asking about everything from the Uyghurs through to the Turkmens, how could there be a "general attitude" to any question from such a broad group of people..

Nonetheless, I do know that much about it and it could prove interesting if someone could talk what they perceive as being the feelings and conditions of those various minorities in each country. Places such as Turkmenistan which have a long history which is almost never discussed, strike me as interesting and perhaps strategic places to focus on.

The new deals with gas being passed between the various more eastern and central Asian, middle-eastern and border-European states, back to Russia (and Gazprom), the governments of the various states trying to find better ways of capitalising on theirs and others' resources around that region and the working-classes' historic links between each other are all important if there is ever going to be a revolution there I would say. There is a lot of talk about Soviet "Great Russian" chauvinism taking hold in these central Asian states that could prove an interesting discussion too, when we talk about minorities we are supposed to respect and enhance the quality of life and not apply cultural dogmatism to stamp all over it, after all.

Random Precision
3rd December 2009, 18:41
Vargha when you say "..the (Turkic) working class's general attitude in this question ?" isn't it a broad thing to ask. You are asking about everything from the Uyghurs through to the Turkmens, how could there be a "general attitude" to any question from such a broad group of people..

Nonetheless, I do know that much about it and it could prove interesting if someone could talk what they perceive as being the feelings and conditions of those various minorities in each country. Places such as Turkmenistan which have a long history which is almost never discussed, strike me as interesting and perhaps strategic places to focus on.

The new deals with gas being passed between the various more eastern and central Asian, middle-eastern and border-European states, back to Russia (and Gazprom), the governments of the various states trying to find better ways of capitalising on theirs and others' resources around that region and the working-classes' historic links between each other are all important if there is ever going to be a revolution there I would say. There is a lot of talk about Soviet "Great Russian" chauvinism taking hold in these central Asian states that could prove an interesting discussion too, when we talk about minorities we are supposed to respect and enhance the quality of life and not apply cultural dogmatism to stamp all over it, after all.

I'm pretty sure he was just asking about the Turkish working class. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Uyghur workers are that concerned about the Kurds' right to self determination in Turkey; they have their own national struggle at home to deal with.

Devrim
3rd December 2009, 22:08
I'm pretty sure he was just asking about the Turkish working class. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Uyghur workers are that concerned about the Kurds' right to self determination in Turkey; they have their own national struggle at home to deal with.

Yes, that is what I presumed he meant. 'Turkic' is the wrong term though.

Devrim

ls
3rd December 2009, 22:48
I still think the questions of culture throughout the various Turkic peoples is an interesting debate when talking about oppressed minorities, most of the points about the OP have been addressed well by Niccolo I thought, so I've got little to add on the OP.

There have been attempts at a coup (from what I can tell - initiated by the people) fairly recently in places like Turkmenistan, where disatisfaction with the government is at its peak..

Vargha Poralli
5th December 2009, 23:08
Vargha, I assume that you agree with the bulk of this article. All that I can say is that it is garbage.

"Luxemburg’s formulation was a sanitised version of the earlier denial by Engels of the national rights of the so-called ‘non-historic peoples’, relatively small nations which were seen as obstructions to the growth of States into political units large enough to possess internal markets, create conditions for the growth of productive forces and catalyse capitalist class differentiation." - No, Luxemburg's positions was distinct from that held by Marx and Engels. Calling it 'sanitised' is just baseless name-calling. More than this, contrary to the moralism of the author here, the method of Marx and Engels in their evaluation of the national question in the era of ascedant capitalism in which they lived was entirely correct.

"The lunatic fringe of the European Left extended Luxemburg’s argument to oppose anti-colonial movements in Asia and Africa." - More empty name-calling. The so-called 'lunatic left' did not extend Luxemburg's position, we hold the same position.

"But it was claimed by the extreme Left that the spread of European colonial empires and emergence of imperialism nevertheless are objective processes, which are economically integrating the working classes on a global scale and leading to the political unity among workers from different countries; and thereby creating the conditions for constructing the political superstructure of the world socialist revolution. Therefore, so the Left lunatic fringe asserted, anti-colonial movements for the independence of the colonised nations and peoples sought to reverse the global integration of working class, undermined worker’s unity and benefited largely the national and/or comprador bourgeoisie of the colonial territories and were, historically speaking, reactionary." - Here we have a lot of things jumbled together. Capitalist expansion into corners of the globe which were still dominated by pre-capitalist social relations has always been viewed by Marxism as a historically progressive process. This position was not an invention of the communist left. More than this, this position meant in no way an indifferance to or support for this process. The recognition by the communist left of the anti-worker nature of national liberation movements in terms of undermining the unity of the working class by enrolling it in support of their respective national bourgeoisies is distinct from the above, contrary to the stalineque amalgation made by the article.

Also, it has to be remembered that contrary to the claims by the article, it is not the communist left which has the blood of the colonised peoples on it's hands, but those who in the name of socialism called on workers to butcher one another in defense of their national bourgeoisies.

"Indeed, member-States of the United Nations increased from 26 in 1945 to 185 in 1997, an increase of 159 States (611%)! The empirical data had disproved Luxemburg..." - Er, what?

Also, I agree with the point made by Devrim and Random Precision. I don't think the position of the LSSP on the Tamil national question had anything to do with authentic proletarian internationalism and it is incorrect to equate them with the communist left on this point.

In response to the question of 'What alternative we have for the working class of the oppressed nationalities?' The same posed to the entire working class: Socialism or Barbarism.



The main issue with your post is that you have assumed the article attacks communist left. But the left in general. The author doe not know much about variations in Left. In general their criticsm is targetted at the Stalinists and Trotskyists in Sri Lanka and India.

As for the Lunatic left comment what they actuay meant is Second International. After they are the ones who supported their own bourgeoisie in the WW1.

I must have made clear when I mentioned Left communists in the first post.

And RP is wrong to say that NSSP position was based on Sinhalese chauvinism.The main cause is ack of Back Bone to stand up to it. They might have been 100 % correct in analysing the Tamil and Sinhalese working class better stand united(They did during the early days after Independence) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanka_Sama_Samaja_Party#Hartal_and_after)than divided but on doing so they faled to recognise the brutal opression unleashed upon maily working class Tamils.

I you look at the origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_LTTE_Insurgency) in reality the Tamil bourgeoisie didn't give an rats ass about the self determination of the Tamils. Because the opressive policies such as Citizenship act, Sinhala only act, Policy of standardisation affetcted the working class Tamils more than the Middle class Tamils(who form the large part of Tami Diaspora). At least the middle classes had an oppurtunity to get out of everyting by emigrating - while the working class cannot offer that luxury.

In this case everything which hurt the Tamil working class is propagandised by the chauvinist govt as beneficial for the Sinhalese working class. If by NSSP's standards working class do not gain much by being divided why it had not countered the Sinhalese government propaganda ?

Now Left communists hold similar position - may be different in essence but nevertheless not much different one.



In response to the question of 'What alternative we have for the working class of the oppressed nationalities?' The same posed to the entire working class: Socialism or Barbarism.

Slogans are always nice unless they don't match the real world conditions. Socialism was the slogan not only of the LSSP/NSSP but also of the Sinhalese Chauvinist JVP.

In real world the minorities could not be just given that slogan.

The bourgeoisie would try to divide the working class as many they can no doubht about it. But we can't simple blame on nationalism when working class too desire division also. It is stupid to think many Tamil working class people supported LTTE in Lanka driven simple because of Tamil Nationalism. They are the ones who had lost much in the oppressive policies and they had everything to gain back by fighting for self determination.

Whether we like it or not we have to face the nationality question when we face the working class. And sloganeering just class unity and socialism without taking in to conditions on the ground is just going to marginalise the left even further as outlined in the article.

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And ls I meant Turkish working class as pointed by Devrim and RP. I have corrected it.