North Korea

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

Just wanted to see where you all stand on this.I hate North Korea brcause it's led by some fascist psycho path and then pose themselves as communist.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I love it , it is the people paradise it says so on their dream weaver constructed website.

[Wanted Man]

Yes, nuke the bastards.

[LeninBalls]

Humanity will benefit from the destruction of the North Korean people. Voted yes.

[LOLseph Stalin]

While I don't specifically support the North Korean ideology(Juche), I don't think they should be nuked. They're still better off than most Capitalist countries. Besides, much of what they do is out of self-defense. I'm sure other countries would act the same if they were constantly labelled as evil and recieving threats. :)

[Spawn of Stalin]

Invade and implement the shock doctrine. It's the only way to end the suffering of the Korean proletariat.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

It would depend who is doing the attacking. The majority of the countries capable would just replace Juche with Capitalism... that's like saving a drowning person, then pushing them back in and telling them to pay for swimming lessons.

[Искра]

They are better than capitalists countries? How's that?
They are same shit in different package.

[Revy]

Although I defend its right to have nukes, and to be free from imperialist attack, my support ends there.

Of course, any hope for an internal revolution of sorts of a socialist type might be futile and naive looking at history. It will probably revert completely to market capitalism and merge seamlessly with South Korea. C'est la vie.

They have lived under a worsening autocracy for decades, they will take "democracy" with or without socialism. That is how these things go. Few people will fight to keep the DPRK in place. Who should be blamed for that? The brutal tyrants and bureaucrats that rule it.

[Che a chara]

There should be no invasion, but for sure some sort of disciplinary matter should be implemented.

Open dialogue between nations and the wishes of the people of North Korea should be made public. It's a shame that North Korea has a history of silencing and censorship and as already said, the country does have a right to arm itself for defence.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

are you from the US, OP?

it appears to me that evil Western imperialist interventionist propaganda has affected your judgement

the North Korean state hasn't bothered any "other world countries"
attacking it is strictly up to the North Korean people

[Brady]

Just wanted to see where you all stand on this.I hate North Korea brcause it's led by some fascist psycho path and then pose themselves as communist.

Just to clarify, are you advocating an imperialist invasion of North Korea here?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

imperialist or not, what he is proposing is ridiculous coming from a self procclaimed communist

[Holden Caulfield]

I often defend North Korea to make stupid people think twice about things, then I tell them I was just making them think twice about things and tell them how shit it is.

But no of course I don't egg on imperialism

[Spawn of Stalin]

Six people voted for an invasion...nice anti-imperialism, Comrades.

[Tatarin]

And George W. Bush was not a "psychotic fascist"?

No, North Korea must be left alone. Any invading force will quickly "reform" the country into another sweatshop dunghole. If there were a socialist country, maybe, but only if the North Korean people were in on it as an alliance.

For that matter, why don't they invade Washington DC and do all of humanity a great favour. In fact, that's probably the only invasion that a great majority of humans all over the world would support.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Stupid poll, really. I voted other.

I can't really conceive a way in which we can cause the end of this horrendous regime, aside from sit it out and aid where we can.

Unless anybody knows of any way to organise amongst the Korea proletariat?

[Weezer]

Except for a few nutters here and there, noone here would support destroying welfare state measures like healthcare, education, social security etc in the western countries because "its all capitalist". North Korea provides free healthcare, education and guaranteed employment to its citizens. The overthrow of such a progressive regime would mean a free market regime that would sap and destroy the people of North Korea, much like what happened to the working class in Eastern Europe after 1989. The workers in imperialist countries have obviously been influenced by imperialist propaganda and consider the DPRK as "hell" compared to the liberal paradises of the West (which have better conditions because those countries are richer). But such people are clearly applying the wrong standards when looking at the DPRK. They should look to the devastation caused to the working class after the overthrow of the East European regimes and then decide if they want to support the anti-imperialist regimes of the world that seek, in whatever small terms, to provide better living conditions for their citizens. Remember that for workers everywhere, every single progressive victory is precious and has to be fought for tooth and nail to kept from destruction from the imperialist bourgeoisie.

That fact that anyone considers North Korea progressive is disgusting. I can see where you're coming from, but Nordic countries also provide welfare, education, and healthcare, all for free.

They are not worker's states. Neither is North Korea. It is ran by an autocrat, and he needs to be deposed of. I'm sorry, but I don't see any dictatorship of the proletariat, North Korea is not a friend of mine, and hopefully, none of yours.

But, North Korea has ITS OWN FORUM!!!!!!!

[Q]

I'm not sure why this thread seems to attract non-serious reactions and would like to remind people that this is not chit-chat.


Should the other world countries attack North Korea?
No, of course not. A war against North-Korea will only make the North-Korean working class suffer from the consequences. Iraq and Afghanistan are living reminders why "regime change" by military invasion don't work. Furthermore it is no call to organise the working class but instead a call to the imperialist elite of this world to invade. As such it doesn't bring a progressive political alternative against the reactionary regime in the DPRK. I think the call should be made for a political revolution to oust the authoritarian dictatorship, instate genuine workers democracy and by this form a pole of attraction to the working class in East-Asia and worldwide.

[Panda Tse Tung]

Other: No, i don't support Imperialist wars. Nor the breach of any countries sovereignty, unless previous country is a threat to other country's sovereignty (which is not the case).

[Q]

Other: No, i don't support Imperialist wars. Nor the breach of any countries sovereignty, unless previous country is a threat to other country's sovereignty (which is not the case).

Why do you hold countries' sovereignty in such high regard? The working class has no borders.

[RedFruit]

[x] other

The attack against the government has to come from the North Korean people themselves not from a different nation.

[bailey_187]

Unless anybody knows of any way to organise amongst the Korea proletariat?

:lol::lol::lol::glare:


Maybe we could get them to start a Trade Union called Solidarity or something. Then the ever allusive "real socialism" will be acheived.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Like Bush would have said, we need to schmoke 'em outta their hidey-holes in the mountains.

Erase North Korea and leave a blast crater in its place. :D

[Spirit of Spartacus]

All of that is true...in the realm of fantasy. :thumbup1:

Now, all we need is for that awesome socialist South Korea to come into being, given the conditions there right now.

[Panda Tse Tung]

Why do you hold countries' sovereignty in such high regard? The working class has no borders.
Because i don't believe revolution can be 'enforced' from the outside. Every people needs to fight it's own revolution, otherwise the chances of it being fruitful would be minimal. Similarly I'm opposed to imperialist or capitalist intervention in other counties business for obvious reasons. I think this combination can be perfectly summed up by the right to national self-determination.

[Dr. Fish]

I think that the Korean peoples should rise up against Kim Jong Il rather than other countries destroying North Korea. But since ,as far as I know, the North Korean people do not have arms or organization, it should be their brothers to the South to ive them support though Asylum and aid, food and weapons.

[ls]

Obviously not, who would support any imperialist war?

The best way for things to change would seem to be for a left revolution to take place in SK, we have seen quite a lot of workers' militancy there (and have done for a long time). I don't think it's completely impossible, conditions there are so bad that workers are compelled to fight off police in factory occupations to the point of falling to their deaths....

[scarletghoul]

I think that the Korean peoples should rise up against Kim Jong Il rather than other countries destroying North Korea. But since ,as far as I know, the North Korean people do not have arms or organization, it should be their brothers to the South to ive them support though Asylum and aid, food and weapons.
Most of the population goes through military training, and a huge portion of the people are armed and in organised forces. Not just the Korean Peoples' Army but also the Worker-Peasant Red Guard militias. This totals to about 5-6 milliion of the 24 million people in North Korea being in organised military force. These are ordinary conscripted people, not mercenary thugs like in the US or UK, so if there really was widespread discontent with the regime a peoples' armed uprising would not be out of the question.

[Dr. Fish]

Most of the population goes through military training, and a huge portion of the people are armed and in organised forces. Not just the Korean Peoples' Army but also the Worker-Peasant Red Guard militias. This totals to about 5-6 milliion of the 24 million people in North Korea being in organised military force. These are ordinary conscripted people, not mercenary thugs like in the US or UK, so if there really was widespread discontent with the regime a peoples' armed uprising would not be out of the question.

I was not aware of that. So does that mean that the peoples are content with the regime?

[scarletghoul]

It's impossible to tell exactly what they think obviously because theres a lack of objective info. But thats what it seems like to me. Even if not 'content', they're certainly not full of rage and hatred for the regime. They seem more concerned about US imperialism, which is fair enough.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I actually genuinely believe that the people there are happy with the regime, as scarletghoul said, half of these people have easy access to guns, if they wanted it, a revolution would certainly be a possibility. I go a step further, I say that the Kims have been in power for nearly four decades, if the Korean people wanted to get rid of them, they definitely would have done it by now. It would be a completely different story if the population wasn't armed and if the military and the proletariat were separate, but they are not separate, the proletariat is the military, and the military makes up part of the proletariat, so it isn't a fascist junta, the people have much more control over their destiny than most people on here think.

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

Just to clarify, are you advocating an imperialist invasion of North Korea here?


No not an imperialist invasion.But any invasion that stops these fascist idiots.I don't care revolution or invasion.Even capitalism is better than fascism no matter how simalar they are.

Fascism is capitalism in decay-Vladimir lenin

[StoneFrog]

Sure let the other world countries go in and make it into another capitalist whore, just like they love doing. I thought we as the left were opposed to installing capitalism in countries? We all know the UN will go in and exploit the country, and countries like US and UK will take it for all its worth. I'd rather be exploited by people who i can see and fight, than someone who is based half a world away. Yes we should show support for the people their, but letting the UN go in is expanding our enemies resources.

[xCommunistx]

No, because kim jong ills goverment is not perfect but why do war against?
This country is one of the revolutionriest country where try to make communism work, this is a honor not any bad!

[Sendo]

North Korea provides free healthcare, education and guaranteed employment to its citizens.

I'm not too jealous of that. the economy has been in decline for decades, many "jobs" are in the military, and the education??? Cuba can export medical doctors because its universal education properly trains people. North Korea's education under KJI is tailored around not simple propaganda, but blind nationalism and cultish worship of the the Kim family. They aren't exactly training experts there. Look at the urban planning and architecture. It looks less developed than 1920s Soviet Union. The roads are hilariously empty. The photos are free to look at.

****

NK needs help, but not from the outside. I will not defend Juche as "Marxist". Just compare it to Cuba. This whole mega-army is needed because of foreign hostility bullshit: They have had China as its guardian since the Korean war, and today, at the very least, it will be a buffer. Cuba is right next door to the USA and doesn't have the mega-army and that is with it's only allies being Venezuela and some even more destitute nations.....so imperialism is no excuse.

Also NK is endowed with lots of mineral resources and had a major advantage over the south in the 1950s with its less damaged country and substantial industry (From occupation and from the Soviets. The USA was more occupied with building up Japan).

I'm tired of excuses being made up for NK. I don't advocate an invasion, but I won't defend NK, but I also realize its isolationism makes organizing for foreigners impossible....so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Oh, and I highly doubt they would use any nukes. The country would be carpet-bombed out of existence by the US and Japan.

***
So in conclusion, hands off. The neighbors (I'm in SK by the way) have nothing to fear (and they don't seem scared at all. It's only Western fear-mongers who do that), but NK is in a bad way, no getting around it.

I don't buy the argument that if the people were dissatisfied they would rebel. I don't see mass consrciption as a positive. While it trains many of the populace it comes at the cost of boosting a real economy.

I'd say the best solution is to stop threatening them. That way Westerners would stop blindly supporting Hawkish policies and that way the NK would not have to fear US imperialism. US Imperialism is the BIGGEST thing stopping revolution there and not the people's happiness. Of course when under attack from abroad (perceived or real), the people will show solidarity until society crumbles...that's most of world history.

[scarletghoul]

No, because kim jong ills goverment is not perfect but why do war against?
This country is one of the revolutionriest country where try to make communism work, this is a honor not any bad!
This is true. The DPRK is one of the few revolutionary states left on Earth. Despite its obvious and grossly exxagerated shortcomings, we must as revolutionary socialists take a firm stance in defence of North Korea (same with Cuba, Libya, EZLN, Venezuela, etc). It is one of the last strongholds of our movement and to actively oppose it is stupid and counter-revolutionary.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

This is true. The DPRK is one of the few revolutionary states left on Earth. Despite its obvious and grossly exxagerated shortcomings, we must as revolutionary socialists take a firm stance in defence of North Korea (same with Cuba, Libya, EZLN, Venezuela, etc). It is one of the last strongholds of our movement and to actively oppose it is stupid and counter-revolutionary.

So even though it has officially disowned Marxism, it is still somehow revolutionary?

It is anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist, but not for some principled advancement of Socialism. It is these things for its own selfish, nationalist reasons.

As has been said above, the use of anti-imperialism as an excuse for its gross shortcomings does not wash, when you consider that Cuba, which has been terrorised by the US and for the past 20 years has had no major state to help defend it, does not suffer from the inexcusable problems that beget ordinary North Koreans.

It is arrogant and wrong to defend a regime from the simplistic viewpoint of Anti-Capitalism and Anti-Imperialism, when the truth is that such a regime has been, and is leading its people towards greater and greater destitution for many years, and shows no signs of abating this crash in the living standards of its people.

[spiltteeth]

Not to excuse N.K., but I do think there is real value in it being one of only 2 countries in the world not overtly capitalistic (the other being Cuba) even if it is not a workers state or socialist etc

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

No, I don't believe other countries should invade North Korea; the inevitable conclusion of which being the substitution of one ruling elite with another, as well as incurring gross casualties for ordinary people.

That being said, anyone who thinks that North Korea is all honey and peaches is a total d-bag.

[Patchd]

Where is "No, I don't support imperialism, but I still think Kim Jong Il is a douche"?

[rednordman]

the people have much more control over their destiny than most people on here think.The thing that make me think is what would happen if the countries ever reunited under the eyes of the west. Effectively NK would cease to exist, yet how would the citizens react to being forced to totally erase all of that from their memories. Would it all be happy faces and celebrations like it is dreamed about in the west? Yes things are bad there, but i bet alot of its citizens genuinely are proud of their nations history, and despise the USA. Even the ones who escape.

[Thirsty Crow]

I simply can't believe that fifteen people voted in support of Kim Jong. Funny enough, I also can't believe that ten users voted in favour of an outright military conquest.

North Korea shows signs of "unstability" and I don't think anyone could disagree with that evaluation. That is the reason why an outhright attack might be severely devastating, not only for the people of North Korea. And how could one justify an attack that would probably lead to massive civilian casualties? Premeptive strike and western project of liberation? Yeah, we've all seen how the concept of just war works in these times.

I voted other. But I can't specify exactly what could that mean. Maybe the politocracy/tyrannical elite of N.K. will undergo some structural shifts and changes, thus enabling a certain degree of democratization. I don't know.

[rednordman]

It is these things for its own selfish, nationalist reasons. I really do not see how anyone can accuse this country of being nationalist. Even if it was, why is it more wrong for it, than say, anywhere else in the world? It isnt a bonafide socialist country anymore anyway. All that it is in my opinion, is an anti-imperialist one. But i do not see anything nationalistic there other than the aknowledgement of their own nation state. If anything, the former USSR was more nationalist than NK, but that really officially either.

[rednordman]

No, I don't believe other countries should invade North Korea; the inevitable conclusion of which being the substitution of one ruling elite with another, as well as incurring gross casualties for ordinary people.

That being said, anyone who thinks that North Korea is all honey and peaches is a total d-bag.:rolleyes:Please do not kid yourself. No-one actually believes that NK is heaven on earth. Anyway, where is?

[the last donut of the night]

Although I defend its right to have nukes and fight against imperialism, my support for the DPRK ends there.

[Revy]

The DPRK is one of the most militarized countries on Earth. I don't think the issue for North Korea is whether they can defend themselves in an invasion. The government of the DPRK knows it would be greatly weakened by a nuclear attack. It's nuclear paranoia that drives this whole issue on both sides.

[scarletghoul]

So even though it has officially disowned Marxism, it is still somehow revolutionary?
Yes. Though Marxism is the correct path for the world revolution, that in no way means that non-Marxists can't be revolutionary does it. To think otherwise would be dogmatic and puritan. North Korean socialism is revolutionary and, though not overtly Marxist, has a huge amount of Marxist influence (scientific socialism) and is certainly a part of the revolutionary socialist movement.


It is anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist, but not for some principled advancement of Socialism. It is these things for its own selfish, nationalist reasons. Yeah,, for the survivall of itself and its people,, thats really selfish... fucking selfish north koreans, just thinking about their own survival all the time :rolleyes:

When you're a socialist society under constant imperialist attack, survival IS principled advancement of Socialism. And survival is obviously gonna be the driving force behind your anti-capitalism and anti-imperialim.

As has been said above, the use of anti-imperialism as an excuse for its gross shortcomings does not wash, when you consider that Cuba, which has been terrorised by the US and for the past 20 years has had no major state to help defend it, does not suffer from the inexcusable problems that beget ordinary North Koreans.
What the fuck is up with people hating North Korea but loving Cuba ? It seems you've really bought in to the orientalist bullshit propaganda about 'those brainwashed asians' with their 'crazy infantile dictator' and so on. What exactly is better about Cuba than North Korea ? If you uphold Cuba, you should also uphold North Korea.


It is arrogant and wrong to defend a regime from the simplistic viewpoint of Anti-Capitalism and Anti-Imperialism, when the truth is that such a regime has been, and is leading its people towards greater and greater destitution for many years, and shows no signs of abating this crash in the living standards of its people.What?? This is complete unfounded bullshit. Have you actually read anything about north korea that doesnt come from bourgeois news or history books ?
(and for your information, the North Korean economy has been growing pretty well recently in accordance with their 100-day plans and so on, as part of the project of building a prosperous society by 2012. They clearly are making great and successful efforts to improve society and the living standards of North Koreans)

[Thirsty Crow]

What?? This is complete unfounded bullshit. Have you actually read anything about north korea that doesnt come from bourgeois news or history books ?
(and for your information, the North Korean economy has been growing pretty well recently in accordance with their 100-day plans and so on, as part of the project of building a prosperous society by 2012. They clearly are making great and successful efforts to improve society and the living standards of North Koreans)
I've heard this complaint of "bourgeois history books" too many times.
As far as N.K.'s economy goes, have you any proof to substantiate your claim?

[FSL]

I've heard this complaint of "bourgeois history books" too many times.
As far as N.K.'s economy goes, have you any proof to substantiate your claim?


According to the CIA world factbook north korean economy grew by 3.7% in 2008 https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kn.html
If that's accurate or an underestimation, I have no idea.




What the fuck is up with people hating North Korea but loving Cuba ? It seems you've really bought in to the orientalist bullshit propaganda about 'those brainwashed asians' with their 'crazy infantile dictator' and so on. What exactly is better about Cuba than North Korea ? If you uphold Cuba, you should also uphold North Korea.




It is wrong to view North Korea as similar to Cuba. The two countries followed two different courses. North Korea significantly reduced its ties with Soviet Union after its revisionist turn and did the same thing with its ties to China a few years later. The idea of Juche was put forward in 1955 and "replaced" Marxism-Leninism in the 1972 constitution. North Korea at that point was in a situation similar to that of Albania's. Albania also developed a militarized society, with bunkers covering much of its area, and also became mindful of outsiders as it had no allied states at that point. Albania was still on a better position however, because a significant part of the maoist movement also rejected the 3 worlds theory and turned its support there. North Korea had distanced itself from China over the excesses of the cultural revolution and now was completely isolated from states and the communist movement. Autarky in economy was a nessecity if DPRK was to continue on the same way so Juche was developed to the extremes. The fact that the country was still in a state of war with South Korea meant much importance was given to the army, eventually leading to the military-first policy.

Generally, just as Albania grew "leftist" declaring itself oficially atheist, eliminating army ranks and reducing the higher to lower salary ratio, the DPRK also went off course, with distrust towards foreign states, independence and a strong military becoming the main goals. In both cases, the superstructure mirrored the shortcomings of the base.

Cuba on the other hand was following the revisionism of the soviet union until the point of perestroika, where it started to pursuit another road, to some degree resembling the early policy of NEP and of what Lenin called state capitalism. This is the policy that has kept Cuba afloat and is, in all honesty, the only reasonable when nations find themselves in such adverse conditions. Limited foreign investment in infastructure projects, limited market functioning and a proletarian state keeping things in check. Of course Cuba, not having a strictly socialist economy, also faces internal problems like speculation in farmers' markets or demands for further liberalization by the local petit bourgeoisie; but it is undoubtedly the state where the workers have done best in attaining a high standard of living.

Obviously,a country attacking North Korea would not be a good thing. Probably, if more countries were to be the ground of revolutions , DPRK would pursuit stronger relations with them, being able to develop its economy in a more rational manner while at the same time moving away from those cultural elements we deem as exessive.


So, Cuba deserves an 8 on the socialist scale while North Korea barely scores a 5 and only because we can't afford to flank countries carelessly when we ourselves aren't doing so great in spreading revolution.