Volunteer Action in Estonia cleans all garbage in 1 day

[Havet]

Under normal circumstances it would've taken 22 500 000€ and 3 years by government action.

It took 500 000€ and 1 day to cover up all the garbage. That's 2.22% of the initial cost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5GryIDl0qY

Thoughts?

[Skooma Addict]

Under normal circumstances it would've taken 22 500 000€ and 3 years by government action.

It took 500 000€ and 1 day to cover up all the garbage. That's 2.22% of the initial cost.

Those are some pretty insane numbers. To go from 3 years to 1 day is a gigantic leap.

[IcarusAngel]

Shows the benefits of mass collective action. Of course the govt could just as easily have done it but they have to worry about their own regulations and laws.

The reason most people don't engage in these collective actions much anymore is because through the 'division of labor' that Libertarians support people become isolated and alienated from their own communities and have no free time, and, since they're being paid slave wages, have no money or resources to start counteracting market forces that have destroyed the environment and the planet.

This is why the market should be abolished and all resources and problems should be solved with collective actions.

[Skooma Addict]

Shows the benefits of mass collective action. Of course the govt could just as easily have done it but they have to worry about their own regulations and laws.

Who is responsible for the governments regulations and laws?


The reason most people don't engage in these collective actions much anymore is because through the 'division of labor' that Libertarians support people become isolated and alienated from their own communities and have no free time, and, since they're being paid slave wages, have no money or resources to start counteracting market forces that have destroyed the environment and the planet.


I have never understood the term "wage slave."

[Havet]

BTW, the so called "market" helped them quite a lot by sponsoring and providing them with teams, equipment, transport and free of charge advertisement in the mainstream media.

[IcarusAngel]

The market is responsible for government regulations and laws because by definition the market requires regulations and laws in order to function. Also, the market requires 'big government' because it fails continually necessitating mass intervention. (This is the anarchist explanation for the current state.)

There is no such thing as a 'free-market' and all markets are based on rules. "free-market" is nothing more than foul linguistic play.

And I said 'slave wages.' Slave wages are wages that people live on that only provides them with the bare necessities of life. Usually it's $1 to $2, and that's why the third world has such a problem escaping with escaping slavery because they have no time to solve their own problems or the problems of their communities. In America the minimum wage is inefficient for many people and thus why so many people live in poor conditions esp. Mexicans etc. that come here and live 20 in a room and travel miles to get work. Of course in advanced social democracies people have more free-time.

The point is many people would probably prefer entering into a slave contract if they got room and board for free over the current market economics, esp. now. It's odd that capitalism has gotten so bad that even past tyrannies like feudalism and slavery look better.

Furthermore, it's well known that in America there is a large decline in community events and so on. Even pastimes like baseball are a rarity. My old high school is covered around the field with advertisements of like Arby's and other businesses that aren't even local. It's obvious the US is nearly a completely controlled corporate state at this point.

Many people blame Americans' inability to transform their political grievances into constructive purposes on this breakdown of democracy, and I agree that the breakdown in communities and freedom and equality has a lot to do with America essentially becoming one large market place.

Wage slavery is the theory that people are not earning what they should earn through the LTV. Since the middle class are being deprived of resources I guess it is about the same thing as slave wages anyway, then.

Under 'market discipline' the community values and the lives of the workers, and their access to resources, all have broken down, exactly as even enlightenment philosophers, and even Thomas Jefferson etc., predicted.

[Skooma Addict]

The market is responsible for government regulations and laws because by definition the market requires regulations and laws in order to function. Also, the market requires 'big government' because it fails continually necessitating mass intervention. (This is the anarchist explanation for the current state.) So the entity that creates and passes the regulations and laws is not responsible for the regulations and laws?


There is no such thing as a 'free-market' and all markets are based on rules. "free-market" is nothing more than foul linguistic play.A free market is when all goods and services are provided by the market.


And I said 'slave wages.' Slave wages are wages that people live on that only provides them with the bare necessities of life. Usually it's $1 to $2, and that's why the third world has such a problem escaping with escaping slavery because they have no time to solve their own problems or the problems of their communities.So if I earn 2.01, am I no longer a wage slave? When exactly does a person become a wage slave?



The point is many people would probably prefer entering into a slave contract if they got room and board for free over the current market economics, esp. now. It's odd that capitalism has gotten so bad that even past tyrannies like feudalism and slavery look better.Okay. I don't doubt that there are some people in the world who would enter into a slave contract in return for room and board. People in North Korea for example. Still, I don't understand the term wage slave. People who work for a wage aren't slaves...


Furthermore, it's well known that in America there is a large decline in community events and so on. Even pastimes like baseball are a rarity. My old high school is covered around the field with advertisements of like Arby's and other businesses that aren't even local. It's obvious the US is nearly a completely controlled corporate state at this point.Point being?


Many people blame Americans' inability to transform their political grievances into constructive purposes on this breakdown of democracy, and I agree that the breakdown in communities and freedom and equality has a lot to do with America essentially becoming one large market place.
I guess democracy doesn't work in the long term.


Wage slavery is the theory that people are not earning what they should earn through the LTV. Since the middle class are being deprived of resources I guess it is about the same thing as slave wages anyway, then.If you believe in the LTV, then this would be theft at most. Not slavery. So call it wage theft instead.


Under 'market discipline' the community values and the lives of the workers, and their access to resources, all have broken down, exactly as even enlightenment philosophers, and even Thomas Jefferson etc., predicted.The lives of the workers have improved since the times of the enlightenment philosophers.

[RGacky3]

BTW, the so called "market" helped them quite a lot by sponsoring and providing them with teams, equipment, transport and free of charge advertisement in the mainstream media.


They sponsored them, and gave them stuff, all of that could have been done easily by the state or anyone with money efficiently. Don't try and act like this was a triumph of the market or anything.


So the entity that creates and passes the regulations and laws is not responsible for the regulations and laws?

Partially, but the state responds to pressure, and who have the most power to pressure? The ones with the money.


A free market is when all goods and services are provided by the market.


Well in a regulated market all goods and services can be provided by the market as well, that does'nt make it a free market, you did'nt respond to his point, there is no such thing as a "free" market, because the market is controlled by the capitalist class, or those who have the most money, so its not "free" at all.


So if I earn 2.01, am I no longer a wage slave? When exactly does a person become a wage slave?


WHen your livelyhood is entirely dependant on your wages, and you ahve no say over how the workplace is run, which describes most of the world.


I guess democracy doesn't work in the long term.

No, its just Capitalism is not compatible with democracy.

BTW, THIS is waht anarcho-capitalists really believe, they are totalitarian at heart.


If you believe in the LTV, then this would be theft at most. Not slavery. So call it wage theft instead.


Slavery is systematic control and exploitation, a slave works for someone unwillingly and does'nt get the product of his work. Theft is just when someone takes something from someone else, once or twice, its not systematic, nor is it controlling.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Not having to pay for labor, equipment and transport is cheaper than government action? Who would have thought?!

[Havet]

They sponsored them, and gave them stuff, all of that could have been done easily by the state or anyone with money efficiently. Don't try and act like this was a triumph of the market or anything.

yes, the State could have "easily" done it as well. With more than 98% of the cost it took and in 3 years rather than 1 day.

I'm not saying this is a triumph of the market. It's a triumph of voluntary action and free people organization.

[RGacky3]

yes, the State could have "easily" done it as well. With more than 98% of the cost it took and in 3 years rather than 1 day.

I'm not saying this is a triumph of the market. It's a triumph of voluntary action and free people organization.


I'm saying they could have done the funding, I"m not talking about the administration or the work.

BUt your right, its a triumph of voluntary action and free organization, I think this is very positive.

[IcarusAngel]

Yes. I was trying to point out the alienation that exists in the market system as well, that prevents these things from happening more often. Keep in mind the market is the one responsible for pollution, and the govt. and the people have to clean up their mess.

It all goes back to the tragedy of the commons. Think of it this way: If I care about tomorrow and the human race, and I take care of, say, a third of the commons and I try and make my production as environmentally safe as possible, what is the other guy going to do? He will try and undercut me in the market place, and he will probably succeed, driving me out of business, because it gives him no advantage to maintain my standards. That's why there's always a rush towards the 'bottom line' in the market, whether it's in regards to wages (as Marx pointed out in communist manifesto) or the environment (probably Marx knew this as well).

[Havet]

I think this is very positive.

Yup

[Skooma Addict]

Partially, but the state responds to pressure, and who have the most power to pressure? The ones with the money.

It only makes sense that the entity that creates and enforces the laws and regulations is responsible for the laws and regulations. So the government cannot appeal to its own laws and regulations as an excuse for being inefficient.


Well in a regulated market all goods and services can be provided by the market as well, that does'nt make it a free market, you did'nt respond to his point, there is no such thing as a "free" market, because the market is controlled by the capitalist class, or those who have the most money, so its not "free" at all.

The "free" in free market does not signify equality. A free market not a contradiction, and it is definitely possible. A free market is just one of many possible economic systems. The market is not controlled by the capitalist class either.



WHen your livelyhood is entirely dependant on your wages, and you ahve no say over how the workplace is run, which describes most of the world.

Then the term wage slavery is highly misleading. You aren't being forced to work, so you aren't a slave.


No, its just Capitalism is not compatible with democracy.

BTW, THIS is waht anarcho-capitalists really believe, they are totalitarian at heart.

What do anarcho-capitalists really believe? WHy are they totalitarian at heart?


Slavery is systematic control and exploitation, a slave works for someone unwillingly and does'nt get the product of his work. Theft is just when someone takes something from someone else, once or twice, its not systematic, nor is it controlling.

Theft can be systematic. A slave is a person who is being forced against his will to work. A wage slave sounds like a person who is literally being forced to work against his will for a wage. But modern workers are not being forced to work against their will.

[Bud Struggle]

I'm thinking--harness that and you have the Revolution. Don't harness that and you have the Soviet Union and Poland and hungary and East Germany and Latvia and Estonia and the Ukraine and Lithuania and Bulgaria and Romania and China and Cambodia and Laos and North Korea....anyway you get the point.

So how do you do it?

[RGacky3]

I'm thinking--harness that and you have the Revolution. Don't harness that and you have the Soviet Union.

So how do you do it?

What Anarcho-Syndicalists have been doing for decades, organization, community organization, workplace organization, and so on and so forth.

See this is acceptable, because this is'nt threatening any power, as soon as this sort of thing threatens power then it gets ugly, then you have Oaxaca, but thats how you do it, thats how you get revolution.



It only makes sense that the entity that creates and enforces the laws and regulations is responsible for the laws and regulations. So the government cannot appeal to its own laws and regulations as an excuse for being inefficient.

The "free" in free market does not signify equality. A free market not a contradiction, and it is definitely possible. A free market is just one of many possible economic systems. The market is not controlled by the capitalist class either.


YOu have to actually respond to what I said, if your going to quote me and then post something after, it should be a responce to my points, not his pointless rhetoric, we can't have a discussion unless you can do that.


Theft can be systematic. A slave is a person who is being forced against his will to work. A wage slave sounds like a person who is literally being forced to work against his will for a wage. But modern workers are not being forced to work against their will.

I thief is someone that puts a gun to your head and says "give me your money", a slave master is someone that says work for me, day after day, or you die.

A Capitalist says "I control the workplace, I control the capital, either you work for me, do what I say, or your gonna starve."

The outcome is the same, workers are being forced to work for someone else, that is slavery.


What do anarcho-capitalists really believe? WHy are they totalitarian at heart?

That democracy doe'nst work, anarcho-capitalists do not believe in democracy, they believe in the market, which is essencially, the rich controlling everything, which is totalitarian.

But let me make a request, lets finish the argument in another thread, this one is about the volunteer work.

[Bud Struggle]

What Anarcho-Syndicalists have been doing for decades, organization, community organization, workplace organization, and so on and so forth.

See this is acceptable, because this is'nt threatening any power, as soon as this sort of thing threatens power then it gets ugly, then you have Oaxaca, but thats how you do it, thats how you get revolution.



Best of luck.

I honestly don't quite know what's out there in Oaxaca. I'd like to see. I'd like to visit the place--but there are dangers it seems. Gack, care to join me in a visit? (I'll pay.)

It might be interesting for us both.

[RGacky3]

Best of luck.

I honestly don't quite know what's out there in Oaxaca. I'd like to see. I'd like to visit the place--but there are dangers it seems. Gack, care to join me in a visit? (I'll pay.)

It might be interesting for us both.

If your paying then, god-damn, sounds like a deal.

What happened in Oaxaca in 2006, was a popular uprising, by unions and an organization forming called the APPO, which essencially was community assemballies, in other words volunteer organization which was replacing the formal government, then after a while what happened is the federal police came in and started killing people. As far as what is left of the revolution I don't know.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

i_oc7ZA-is8