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what's left?
29th November 2009, 22:25
I came to know these two terms through reading the biography of Engels and I know that to understand Marx it is important to understand Hegel as well, so my question is, can someone summarize Dialetical Materialism, or atleast guide me in the right direction, I'm trying to understand its connection to Marxism....thanks in advance....

Rosa Lichtenstein
29th November 2009, 23:33
Despite what you have been told, and despite what Lenin said, you do not need to undestand Hegel to understand Marx, or be a revolutionary.

My guess is that not one single RevLefter understands Hegel, but many are excellent revolutionaries. The same comment applies to the majority of revolutionaries over the last 150 years. In fact, I challenge anyone who might disagree to prove that anyone has ever undestoood Hegel (how would it be possible to decide whether or not they had?). Even Lenin admitted that there were many things in Hegel he could not grasp!

I have summarised this theory (and then demolished it) here:

http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Anti-D_For_Dummies%2001.htm

I have summarised Hegel's errors here:

http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Outline_of_errors_Hegel_committed_01.htm

Then try this:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/nti-dialectics-made-t103349/index.html

Rosa Lichtenstein
29th November 2009, 23:43
Socialist:


Can't we have one thread without you trolling it? I'm also interested in learning about this topic.

1) Answering a question in this open forum is not 'trolling'.

2) I was invited to RevLeft four years ago to give the dialectical mystics here a hard time, and that I will contuinue to do whether you like it or not.

There is a Dialectical Materialism Group, where you can discuss this to your heart's content, and where I am not allowed to post (since the mystics there are scared of me).

Holden Caulfield
29th November 2009, 23:46
To give Rosa her credit I think this is the best argument she gives on why we should reject dialectics (to the point and concise)



My guess is that not one single RevLefter understands Hegel, but many are excellent revolutionaries.

Rosa Lichtenstein
30th November 2009, 00:00
Socialist:


Repeatedly asserting your own obscure views that no serious party or organization buys or will buy is trolling.

1) Ok, smarty pants, refer the good folks here to one, just one, of my allegedly 'obscure views'.

2) I can just imagine a 19th century version of you, in or around 1865, saying to Marx and Engels:


Repeatedly asserting your own obscure views that no serious party or organization buys or will buy is trolling.

3) We call this in philosophy a "persuasive definition", that is it's a re-definition of a word or phrase that seeks to persuade and not define.

A bit like, say, "Capitalism is efficient, fair and still progressive...".

Rosa Lichtenstein
30th November 2009, 00:45
Socialist:


As evidence, I have to show pretty much every post of yours.

In that case, it should be easy for you to provide a link to just one.


Delusions of grandeur, much?

Not so; the point is that in 1865, anyone using your argument would have been a fool.

This is because a set of ideas is to be judged on its merit, not on how many people accept it within the first few years.

This is especially so in view of what Marx said:


The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships, the dominant material relationships grasped as ideas; hence of the relationships which make the one class the ruling one, therefore, the ideas of its dominance.

So, anyone challenging ideas that have dominated thought ('East' and 'West') for well over two thousand years (and this includes Hegel and the dialectical classicists) is not going to find their ideas immediately appealing.


Anyway, unless anyone else has something positive to add about this topic, I'll just be watching, not contributing to this thread.

You will be sorely missed...:(

TheCagedLion
30th November 2009, 02:05
Socialist:



1) Answering a question in this open forum is not 'trolling'.

2) I was invited to RevLeft four years ago to give the dialectical mystics here a hard time, and that I will contuinue to do whether you like it or not.

There is a Dialectical Materialism Group, where you can discuss this to your heart's content, and where I am not allowed to post (since the mystics there are scared of me).

/hug

9
30th November 2009, 02:33
To the original poster, I'd recommend joining the Dialectical Materialists (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=62) group and posing your question there ;)

ZeroNowhere
30th November 2009, 07:53
On the Hegel-Marx connection, see Lucio Colletti's 'Marxism and Hegel'. It also includes an explanation of some of Hegel's main concepts which were appropriated by diamat, stuff on Kant (Colletti was not a 'Kantian', it is worth noting), and ridicule of just about anything possible.

Jimmie Higgins
30th November 2009, 10:33
I came to know these two terms through reading the biography of Engels and I know that to understand Marx it is important to understand Hegel as well, so my question is, can someone summarize Dialetical Materialism, or atleast guide me in the right direction, I'm trying to understand its connection to Marxism....thanks in advance....

I agree with Rosa that you don't need to understand Hegel to be a good Marxist and activist. I disagree that Dialectical Materialism is "mysticism" although Hegelian dialectics are certainty "idealist" in that his view of dialectics involved opposing ideas creating new ideas. Marx rejected the idealism of Hegelian dialectics but applied dialectical thinking to the material world.

Dialectics has been useful for marxists in getting an understanding that the world is dynamic and always in a state of flux and change. It has also been used to try and understand how small material changes can accumulate to the point where a qualitative leap is made. So a revolution that seems to come from nowhere and elecate a new social class into power (like the French Revolution) can be understood as the accumulation of small changes that allowed the merchants and so on to eventually come to a point where they could not continue to grow and gain power without coming into conflict with the ruling class of landed nobels and so a conflice ensued which didn't just end in another incramental change but radically changed the balance in society.

A materialist dialectical method has also helped shed light on big leaps in evolution. Many evolutionists believed that evolution was a small series of steps slowly leading to new developments and new species. But often in the fossile record there are huge explosions of new life or huge extinctions. One example of a burst of new life is called the Cambrian explosion where simple life seems to have evelved into complex organisms in a short amount of time. I read that one of the theories about this now is that some simple predators developed rudamentary eyes for the first time (photosensitive cells grouped together) and suddenly they had a huge advantage over the rock-clinging sightless organisms. This caused new evolutionary pressures that favored organisms that developed ways to cope with predators that could see them: animals that developed flight (i.e. could swim away) or camoflage or increaase their size or so on were now the surviors. In turn predators that could adapt to the new defenses multiplied and so on.

Honggweilo
30th November 2009, 10:35
Despite what you have been told, and despite what Lenin said, you do not need to undestand Hegel to understand Marx, or be a revolutionary.

My guess is that not one single RevLefter understands Hegel, but many are excellent revolutionaries. The same comment applies to the majority of revolutionaries over the last 150 years. In fact, I challenge anyone who might disagree to prove that anyone has ever undestoood Hegel (how would it be possible to decide whether or not they had?). Even Lenin admitted that there were many things in Hegel he could not grasp!

I have summarised this theory (and then demolished it) here:

http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Anti-D_For_Dummies%2001.htm

I have summarised Hegel's errors here:

http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Outline_of_errors_Hegel_committed_01.htm

Then try this:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/nti-dialectics-made-t103349/index.html

It really is your devine mission to lurk revleft 24/7 and combat dialectics wherever it shows its face isnt it :rolleyes:. Seriously.. where do you find the time to do this?



http://www.greatdreams.com/political/Don-Quixote-Windmill.gif

Jimmie Higgins
30th November 2009, 10:39
There is a Dialectical Materialism Group, where you can discuss this to your heart's content, and where I am not allowed to post (since the mystics there are scared of me). Scared or at this point, we simply have to agree to disagree on Dialectics because debating you on this is like debating evolution with a creationist. You can cite 101 ways in which DM was used incorrectly or for dishonest and self-serving perposes by the USSR or other revolutionaries and you are probably correct about it.

But any philosophy or theory can be used incorrectly or for a dishonest purpose. A hammer (or ice axe) can be used to murder someone but it doesn't mean that the tool itself can only be used for murder and can't be used to build a house (or chop ice? What the hell is an ice axe anyway... I'm from California, I don't know about snow.).

Darwinism was also used by ruling classes as a pseudo-science to justify their rule and explain-away social problems and inequality, but that still doesn't negate the validity or usefulness of the theory as a whole.

Evolutionary Scientist Stephen Jay Gould had something to say about that:

Dialectical thinking should be taken more seriously by Western scholars, not discarded because some nations of the second world have constructed a cardboard version as an official political doctrine.

It's also strange that you've made this your crusade because I really don't run into a lot of comrades making wild claims about things because they have employed dialectical though. On the other hand I do run into a lot of comrades who have stagiest or undynamic thinking in regards to historical developments. If anything, young/new comrades suffer from impressionistic thinking more often than off-the-wall dialectical thinking.

Rosa Lichtenstein
30th November 2009, 12:04
Decon+!


It really is your devine mission to lurk revleft 24/7 and combat dialectics wherever it shows its face isnt it

You betcha.


Seriously.. where do you find the time to do this?

I'm just well organised.

Rosa Lichtenstein
30th November 2009, 12:24
Gravedigger:


Scared or at this point, we simply have to agree to disagree on Dialectics because debating you on this is like debating evolution with a creationist. You can cite 101 ways in which DM was used incorrectly or for dishonest and self-serving purposes by the USSR or other revolutionaries and you are probably correct about it.

But any philosophy or theory can be used incorrectly or for a dishonest purpose. A hammer (or ice axe) can be used to murder someone but it doesn't mean that the tool itself can only be used for murder and can't be used to build a house (or chop ice? What the hell is an ice axe anyway... I'm from California, I don't know about snow.).

You are right, any theory can be used correctly or incorrectly, except, with dialectics there is no way of telling the one from the other, since it glories in contradiction. So, one minute, dialecticians can assert A, the next non-A. Hence, it can be used to 'justify' whatever anyone likes, and its opposite in the next breath. There are plenty of examples of this in the history of Dialectical Marxism.


debating you on this is like debating evolution with a creationist

In fact, it's the other way round. I have been pointing out the many fatal defects the lie at the heart of dialectics here now for over four years, and almost without exception, dialecticians either 1) Ignore them (just like Christians ignore evidence of lack of design in nature) or 2) They try to re-interpret the passages I quote from the dialectical classics, in order to 'sanitise' them, saying they are 'non-literal', or 'metaphorical', and the like -- , a bit like the way theologians try to 'sanitise' the book of Genesis as 'metaphorical' so that it conforms to modern science. The debate I had with Red Cat in the Mao thread recently was a classic example of this.


It's also strange that you've made this your crusade because I really don't run into a lot of comrades making wild claims about things because they have employed dialectical though. On the other hand I do run into a lot of comrades who have stagiest or undynamic thinking in regards to historical developments. If anything, young/new comrades suffer from impressionistic thinking more often than off-the-wall dialectical thinking.

In fact, some of the worst 'stagiests' are the Stalinists and Maoists, and you can't find more rabid, mad dog dialecticians than these characters. They'll just accuse you of not 'understanding' dialectics (which is an easy claim to make since no one understands it) if you disagree with them, anyway.

But, there are more and better concepts in historical materialism and ordinary language that can be used to combat such wooden thinking, so even if dialectics were a perfect theory, we'd still not need it.

But, it's not a perfect theory, in fact it is so poor, it wouldn't make the bottom of the reserve list of likely theories of change -- should we ever need one.

Rosa Lichtenstein
30th November 2009, 12:46
Gravedigger:


Dialectics has been useful for marxists in getting an understanding that the world is dynamic and always in a state of flux and change. It has also been used to try and understand how small material changes can accumulate to the point where a qualitative leap is made. So a revolution that seems to come from nowhere and elevate a new social class into power (like the French Revolution) can be understood as the accumulation of small changes that allowed the merchants and so on to eventually come to a point where they could not continue to grow and gain power without coming into conflict with the ruling class of landed nobles and so a conflict ensued which didn't just end in another incremental change but radically changed the balance in society.

1) Dialectics can't do this since if it were true, change would be impossible -- as I have shown in the Mao thread.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/mao-zedong-t121784/index5.html

2) We already have countless words in ordinary language that can be used to explain change.

Here is a greatly shortened list of ordinary words (restricted to modern English) that allow speakers to refer to changes of unbounded complexity:


Vary, alter, adjust, amend, make, produce, revise, improve, deteriorate, edit, bend, straighten, weave, dig, plough, sow, twist, turn, tighten, fasten, loosen, relax, tense up, slacken, bind, wrap, pluck, rip, tear, mend, perforate, repair, damage, mutate, metamorphose, transmute, sharpen, modify, develop, expand, contract, constrict, constrain, widen, lock, unlock, swell, flow, differentiate, divide, partition, unite, amalgamate, connect, fast, slow, swift, rapid, hasty, heat up, melt, harden, cool down, flash, shine, glow, drip, cascade, drop, pick up, fade, darken, wind, unwind, meander, peel, scrape, graze, file, scour, dislodge, is, was, will be, will have been, had, will have had, went, go, going, gone, return, lost, age, flood, precipitate, crumble, disintegrate, erode, corrode, rust, flake, shatter, percolate, seep, tumble, mix, separate, cut, chop, crush, grind, shred, slice, dice, saw, sew, knit, spread, coalesce, congeal, fall, climb, rise, ascend, descend, slide, slip, roll, spin, revolve, oscillate, undulate, rotate, wave, conjure, quickly, slowly, instantaneously, suddenly, gradually, rapidly, hastily, inadvertently, accidentally, extremely, snap, chew, digest, ingest, excrete, join, resign, part, sell, buy, acquire, lose, find, search, explore, cover, uncover, reveal, stretch, depress, compress, lift, put down, win, ripen, germinate, conceive, gestate, abort, die, rot, perish, grow, decay, fold, many, more, less, fewer, steady, steadily, jerkily, smoothly, quickly, very, extremely, exceedingly, intermittent, continuous, continual, push, pull, slide, jump, sit, stand, run, chase, walk, swim, drown, immerse, break, charge, retreat, assault, dismantle, pulverise, disintegrate, dismember, replace, undo, reverse, repeal, enact, quash, throw, catch, hour, minute, second, instant, invent, innovate, rescind, destroy, annihilate, extirpate, boil, freeze, thaw, cook, liquefy, solidify, congeal, neutralise, flatten, crimple, evaporate, condense, dissolve, mollify, pacify, calm down, terminate, initiate, instigate, enrage, inflame, protest, challenge, expel, eject, remove, overthrow, expropriate, scatter, gather, assemble, defeat, strike, revolt, riot, march, demonstrate, rebel, campaign, agitate, organise...

Naturally, it would not be difficult to extend this list until it contained literally tens of thousands of words all capable of depicting countless changes in limitless detail (especially if it is augmented with the language of mathematics). It is only a myth put about by Hegel and dialecticians that ordinary language cannot express change. On the contrary, it performs this task far better than the incomprehensible and impenetrably obscure jargon Hegel invented in order to fix something that was not broken.

And we have debated this alleged 'law' (i.e., "quantity passes over into quality") many times before, where I have been able to show that it only seems to work because of the way that its key terms have been left undefined.

As I point out in one of my introductory Essays:


Engels asserted the following:


...[T]he transformation of quantity into quality and vice versa. For our purpose, we could express this by saying that in nature, in a manner exactly fixed for each individual case, qualitative changes can only occur by the quantitative addition or subtraction of matter or motion (so-called energy)…. Hence it is impossible to alter the quality of a body without addition or subtraction of matter or motion, i.e. without quantitative alteration of the body concerned. [Engels (1954), p.63. Emphasis added.]

As we have seen, such change is not smooth or gradual:


It will be understood without difficulty by anyone who is in the least capable of dialectical thinking...[that] quantitative changes, accumulating gradually, lead in the end to changes of quality, and that these changes of quality represent leaps, interruptions in gradualness…. That is how all Nature acts…. [Plekhanov (1956), pp.74-77, 88, 163.]

But there are many things in nature that change smoothly; think of melting metal, glass, plastic, butter, toffee and chocolate. Sure, some things change 'nodally' (i.e., in "leaps"), but many do not. So, the 'nodal' aspect of this law is defective.

Unfortunately, this means that this law cannot be used to argue that the transformation from capitalism to socialism must be 'nodal' (i.e., sudden) too, for we have as yet no idea whether or not this transformation will be one of these exceptions. Plainly, we could only use this law if it had no exceptions at all.

This means that the whole point of adopting this law in the first place has now vanished.

What about the 'quantity into quality' part? Undeniably, many material things change qualitatively, and they do so as a result of the addition or subtraction of matter and/or energy.

But not all qualitative differences are caused this way. The order in which events take place can effect quality, too. For example, try crossing a busy main road first and looking second -- now try it the other way round! And anyone who tries pouring half a litre of water slowly into a litre of concentrated sulphuric acid will face a long and painful stay in hospital, whereas the reverse action is perfectly safe.

When confronted with examples like these, dialecticians largely ignore them, but the few who don't often tell us that these aren't objections to this law, since Engels (and other DM-theorists) did not mean it to be interpreted this way. But, how they know this they have so far kept to themselves.

Now, it turns out that this Law is so vaguely worded that dialecticians can use it in whatever way they please. If this is difficult to believe then ask the very next dialectician you meet precisely how long a "nodal point" is supposed to last. You will receive no answer. But, if no one knows, then anything from a Geological Age to an instantaneous quantum leap could be "nodal"!

And, it really isn't good enough for dialecticians to dismiss this as mere pedantry. Can you imagine a genuine scientist refusing to say how long a crucially important interval in her theory is supposed to be, and accusing you of "pedantry" for even thinking to ask?

Next, enquire what a "quality" is. If your respondent knows his/her theory, you might be told it is a property the change of which alters a process/object into something new. For example, in evolution numerous small variations in organisms accumulate until a new species arises.

Unfortunately, given this explanation of "quality" many of the examples DM-theorists themselves use to illustrate their theory actually fail.

For instance: the most hackneyed example they refer to is water turning to ice or steam, when cooled or heated. Given the above 'definition', this wouldn't be an example of qualitative change, since water (as ice, liquid or steam) is still water (i.e., H2O). Quantitative addition or subtraction of energy does not result in a qualitative change of the required sort; nothing substantially new emerges. This substance stays H2O throughout.

Faced with that, dialecticians may be tempted to relax the definition of a quality, so that in solid, liquid or gaseous form, water could be said to exhibit different qualities.

Unfortunately, this would rescue the above example but sink the theory. If we relax "quality" so that it applies to any qualitative difference, then we would have to include the relational properties of bodies. In that case we could easily have qualitative change with no extra matter or energy added to the system. For instance, consider three animals in a row: a mouse, a pony, and an elephant. In relation to the mouse, the pony is big, but in relation to the elephant it is small. Change in quality, but no matter or energy has been added or subtracted.

Finally, there are substances studied in Chemistry called isomers. These are molecules with exactly the same atoms, but their geometrical orientation is different, which lends to each their different properties. So, here we have a change in quality caused by a change in geometry, but with the addition of no new matter or energy -- contradicting Engels:


...[Q]ualitative changes can only occur by the quantitative addition or subtraction of matter or motion (so-called energy)…. Hence it is impossible to alter the quality of a body without addition or subtraction of matter or motion, i.e. without quantitative alteration of the body concerned. [Engels (1954), p.63. Emphasis added.]

So, at the very best, this law is merely a quaint rule of thumb (a bit like: "A stitch in time saves nine"). At worst, it is like a stopped clock: totally useless, even if twice a day it tells the 'right time'.

Engels's First 'Law' is thus of no use in developing revolutionary theory, and so it has no role to play in helping change society.

Gravedigger:


A materialist dialectical method has also helped shed light on big leaps in evolution. Many evolutionists believed that evolution was a small series of steps slowly leading to new developments and new species. But often in the fossil record there are huge explosions of new life or huge extinctions. One example of a burst of new life is called the Cambrian explosion where simple life seems to have evolved into complex organisms in a short amount of time. I read that one of the theories about this now is that some simple predators developed rudimentary eyes for the first time (photosensitive cells grouped together) and suddenly they had a huge advantage over the rock-clinging sightless organisms. This caused new evolutionary pressures that favored organisms that developed ways to cope with predators that could see them: animals that developed flight (i.e. could swim away) or camouflage or increase their size or so on were now the survivors. In turn predators that could adapt to the new defences multiplied and so on.

In fact, it is useless even here, as I have suggested above.

This has been debated at RevLeft many times, so I will merely re-direct comrades to those discussions; I have listed them here:

http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/RevLeft.htm

Hit The North
30th November 2009, 13:23
I came to know these two terms through reading the biography of Engels and I know that to understand Marx it is important to understand Hegel as well, so my question is, can someone summarize Dialetical Materialism, or atleast guide me in the right direction, I'm trying to understand its connection to Marxism....thanks in advance....

Rather than seeking to understand Dialectical Materialism you should seek to understand the dialectical method - which Marx claims to be at the root of his analysis of capitalism.

Dialectical thinking refers to the ability to view issues from multiple perspectives and to arrive at the most economical and reasonable reconciliation of seemingly contradictory information and postures. Dialectical thinking is a form of analytical reasoning that pursues knowledge and truth as long as there are questions and conflicts.

It seeks to reconcile seemingly opposing phenomena in social life, such as:

Matter and Mind

Society and the individual

Social structure and social relations

Freedom and determinism.

Rosa Lichtenstein
30th November 2009, 13:36
BTB:


Dialectical thinking refers to the ability to view issues from multiple perspectives and to arrive at the most economical and reasonable reconciliation of seemingly contradictory information and postures. Dialectical thinking is a form of analytical reasoning that pursues knowledge and truth as long as there are questions and conflicts.

Ok, let's see you 'reconcile' "seemingly contradictory information and postures" using this 'method', such as these:


It seeks to reconcile seemingly opposing phenomena in social life, such as:

Matter and Mind

Society and the individual

Social structure and social relations

Freedom and determinism.

And you ought to be honest that your view is at odds with that of the vast majority of dialecticians (Engels, Plekhanov, Lenin, Mao, Cliff, Harman...), and represents an academic compromise (beloved of 'Critical Realists' like Bhaskar).

ZeroNowhere
30th November 2009, 14:19
A materialist dialectical method has also helped shed light on big leaps in evolution.It is worth noting that the founder of diamat was rather hostile to Pierre Tremaux, who put forth a theory of punctuated equilibrium in the absence of a 'dialectical method'.