Israel or Palestine?

[Red_Xan]

Just to see where everyone stands.

I know some people think Israel's land was given to them by God.

[The Red Next Door]

I am pro palestine but i don't agree with hamas because they are no better than the Israeli Army, they do the same thing as the Israeli by firing those rockets into cities hurting innocent people but What Israel do is much worst, those motherfucker have to use planes and shit on a small group of people, and don't care where they hit. A lot of innocent people have gotten killed. The fact that god give them that land is a load of fucking bullshit. I find it amusing that god would participate in something very trival but yet again religion don't make sense because it contradict everything their god say.

[gorillafuck]

I am pro palestine but i don't agree with hamas because they are no better than the Israeli Army, they do the same thing as the Israeli by firing those rockets into cities hurting innocent people but What Israel do is much worst, those motherfucker have to use planes and shit on a small group of people, and don't care where they hit. A lot of innocent people have gotten killed. The fact that god give them that land is a load of fucking bullshit. I find it amusing that god would participate in something very trival but yet again religion don't make sense because it contradict everything their god say.
I'm not a huge fan of Hamas but I disagree with saying their just as bad as the IDF. Hamas have a bad ideology and kill innocents through useless actions like subway bombings (though not anywhere close to as many as the IDF kills), but currently they're participating in a fight against an incredibly oppressive regime and military, rather than fighting for that regime. Not to say I agree with their tactics.

I "support Palestine" (even though the only amount of "support" I give is defending the Palestinian side of the debate when it comes up, not much else I can do).

[Holden Caulfield]

this poll is stupid. nobody is going to vote Israel (except maybe Malte)

[Искра]

I would like to vote for working class but I don't see this as an option... why there's no this option?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Other, as in a state which makes reperations to Palestinians while allowing Jews who have lived there for years to continue doing so. A state which recognizes no legal difference between Israeli and Arab and actively works to correct any and all economic inequalities between the two.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Other, as in a state which makes reperations to Palestinians while allowing Jews who have lived there for years to continue doing so. A state which recognizes no legal difference between Israeli and Arab and actively works to correct any and all economic inequalities between the two.

This. I hope soon enough the consensus will be a move towards a middle ground that will both dissolve the current Israeli state and diminish the presence of those Palestinian factions who believe in returning the borders to something found in the 1920s.

[RedSonRising]

How about an option that says "I care for both, just not the militaristic imperialist/terrorist decision-makers in either region" ?

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

I am for the one-state solution, the abolishment of the state of Israel an the peaceful unity of christians, muslims, jews, atheists and everyone else in one unified Palestine.

Israel has no right to exist and is a danger to the Middle East.

[Pogue]

I support Israel, because the Bible tells me so.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

I support Israel, because the Bible tells me so.
Riiiiiiiiiight...:laugh::lol:

[Pogue]

Riiiiiiiiiight...:laugh::lol:

:lol:

I once met a woman who said just that.

[kalu]

Palestine. As Paolo Freire said, to claim neutrality is to wash one's hands of the conflict between oppressor and oppressed.

[Holden Caulfield]

I once met a woman who said just that


the nutter at Marxism?

[Pogue]

the nutter at Marxism?

yeh thats her!

[Random Precision]

This. I hope soon enough the consensus will be a move towards a middle ground that will both dissolve the current Israeli state and diminish the presence of those Palestinian factions who believe in returning the borders to something found in the 1920s.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Palestine in the 1920s was under the British mandate and included all of what is currently Israel and the occupied territories, with a few cities with a strong Jewish presence and scattered Jewish settlements on the coast and in the north.

[ComradeMan]

This poll does not give much of a spectrum of choice....

I am not going to defend the actions of the Israeli state. But on the other hand had there not been hundreds of years of anti-semitism and religious persecution in Europe before hand then Zionism may never have occurred. Jews had long lived peacefully in Middle-Eastern countries including Palestine until the 1930's.

It should also be noted that a leading Palestinian figure during the Second Wold War actually met with Hitler and discussed the Jewish problem.

Have you ever tried looking at things from a Jewish point of view?
Pogroms
Holocausts
Discrimination
Exile
Humiliation
Hatred

Given that background would you not want a state of your own?

As for using a religious argument, well, that's dodgy because technically speaking Orthodox Judaism cannot recognise the legitimacy of the state of Israel as only the Messiah can recreate the kingdom of the twelve tribes.

The only solution in my opinion is for a secular state of Israel to be created and Jerusalem to be declared an international city, but I admit there's about as much chance as that happening as, well, you know what.....

[Spawn of Stalin]

The desire for a Jewish state is not unreasonable, but stealing land is. I support Palestine, and yes, I support Hamas, I support them when they fire rockets over the border, this is an entirely legitimate response to an invasion.

[Random Precision]

It should also be noted that a leading Palestinian figure during the Second Wold War actually met with Hitler and discussed the Jewish problem.

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, was put in his place as "a leading Palestinian figure" by the British who intended to use him to curtail Palestinian Arab national ambitions under the mandate. Eventually he turned on them when it became too difficult to try to pretend to be a voice for his country at the same time he plotted to keep it under British imperialism. He later fled to French Lebanon and then ended up in Germany. The most he did there as far as I know was make a couple anti-Semitic radio broadcasts that may have reached the Middle East, and reviewed some Bosnian Muslim SS recruits on parade.

Of course it's ridiculous to try to blame the Palestinian people for the Holocaust or anything like that with al-Husseini only having very questionably represented them, and only having done a few things that never put him in the position of a direct perpetrator of the Holocaust. Nevertheless this is what the Zionist state tries to do. The Yad Vashem (Holocaust remembrance institution and wholly owned subsidiary of Israel) article on Husseini for example is the second longest article after Hitler in the archive. Not even Himmler or Eichmann rate as high as a guy who gave a couple speeches apparently.


Have you ever tried looking at things from a Jewish point of view?
Pogroms
Holocausts
Discrimination
Exile
Humiliation
Hatred

Given that background would you not want a state of your own?

The question is of course whether all these prevented Jews from assimilating into their respective nations, and also whether they justified a racist, imperialist settler colony being created.


As for using a religious argument, well, that's dodgy because technically speaking Orthodox Judaism cannot recognise the legitimacy of the state of Israel as only the Messiah can recreate the kingdom of the twelve tribes.

Technically schmechnically. All kinds of Orthodox Jews live in Israel today, they certainly do recognize its legitimacy, and many of them are at the forefront of the settler movement.


The only solution in my opinion is for a secular state of Israel to be created and Jerusalem to be declared an international city, but I admit there's about as much chance as that happening as, well, you know what.....

LOL at "a secular state of Israel".

[ComradeMan]

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, was put in his place as "a leading Palestinian figure" by the British who intended to use him to curtail Palestinian Arab national ambitions under the mandate. Eventually he turned on them when it became too difficult to try to pretend to be a voice for his country at the same time he plotted to keep it under British imperialism. He later fled to French Lebanon and then ended up in Germany. The most he did there as far as I know was make a couple anti-Semitic radio broadcasts that may have reached the Middle East, and reviewed some Bosnian Muslim SS Recruits on parade.

Of course it's ridiculous to try to blame the Palestinian people for the Holocaust or anything like that with al-Husseini only having very questionably represented them, and only having done a few things that never put him in the position of a direct perpetrator of the Holocaust.

No one is blaming the Mufti for the holocaust but at the same time it is not going to endear you to the Jewish people, many of whom were in Palestine before the holocaust. But I suppose making a few anti-Semitic broadcasts etc doesn't matter when millions of people are being sent to the gas chambers....


The question is of course whether all these prevented Jews from assimilating into their respective nations,

Well yes, seeing as there were laws that prevented Jews from owning land and participating in trades, workforces etc all over the place, debarred them from public office and at any given moment a pogrom would come along and drive them out...

and also whether they justified a racist, imperialist settler colony being created.

No. but an abused child grows up to be an abuser... I am not seeking to justify anything, I am seeking to evaluate both sides of the coin.


Technically schmechnically. All kinds of Orthodox Jews live in Israel today, they certainly do recognize its legitimacy, and many of them are at the forefront of the settler movement.

Technically speaking there is no such thing as "all kinds of Orthodox Jews", there are Hassedim and Haredim. those calling themselves Modern Orthodox are not considered Orthodox by the others. As a result of the Haredic etc orthodoxy they do not serve in the Israeli army for example and not recognise the state of Israel. Recently one quite coragious Israeli scholar put forward ideas about Zionism actually contradictory to Judaism. However I also acknowledge that is not the majority view in Israel.


LOL at "a secular state of Israel".

Exactly, my point- as much chance of that happening as you know what.... so much for the "roadmap".

[robbo203]

Just to see where everyone stands.

.


A plague on both their houses! The workers have no country and nationalism sucks wherever it rears its ugly head.

[Irish commie]

Critical but unconditional support for the palestinian resistance, israel is a racist apartheid regime who tend to spend great amounts of there time randomly bulldozing palestinian homes. A place where the working class are united against the ruling class opressors is most likely the only chance for peace in the region.

Also i urge all to boycott israeli apartheid goods.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Have you ever tried looking at things from a Jewish point of view?
Pogroms
Holocausts
Discrimination
Exile
Humiliation
Hatred

Given that background would you not want a state of your own?

Looking at things from an anarchist/communist point of view, I don't want states for anyone, I want an end to nationalism and the cycles of violence and division it breeds.

[bricolage]

Have you ever tried looking at things from a Jewish point of view?
Pogroms
Holocausts
Discrimination
Exile
Humiliation
Hatred

Given that background would you not want a state of your own?

I don't think anyone is denying Zionism was a response to European anti-semitism, from Herzl and the Dreyfus Affair to the Holocaust and the foundation of Israel, however that does not stop it being the wrong response. Post WW2 it is arguably the case that the existence of Israel has bred more anti-semitism than it has stopped, Israel defines itself as a Jewish state, prescribes its nationality as Jewish (its interesting how the Israeli government has never claimed there to be an Israeli nationality, based on any definition of nationality a group people collected from all the corners of the world, speaking widely different languages (in about 1948 10% of Jews spoke Hebrew) and with widely different cultures and histories could never be a nation) thus claims to speak for all Jews, in doing so it can conflate all criticism of it and of Zionism as anti-semitism. Furthermore as Israel attempts to hold a hegemonic influence on the definition of Jewish identity, diapora Jews are led to support Israeli actions in the misguided belief that they are in doing so opposing anti-semitism. Additionally as Israel claims to represent all Jews worldwide anti-semites can use this as an excuse to attack all Jews worldwide. In this respect the struggle against Zionism is the struggle against anti-semitism.

However moving away from this the fact remains that none of what you mention justifies the formation of a racist, exclusionary and militaristically aggressive state and anyway as TUF notes states are never justified nor are they ever a 'solution'.

[Che Guevara]

Voted Palestine.

What the Israelis are doing in Palestine is inhumane. It's as if genocide is happening to a certain extent.

I'm not a huge fan of militants killing innocent people, but I don't strongly oppose the Hamas either. I mean, when you're the US of the middle east and you're starving people in an occupied country, you're going to piss off some people... and that's exactly what's happened with the Hamas.

The way I see it, those rockets aren't necessarily 'meant' to kill people, but a way to send a message to the Israeli government.

[Soldier of life]

I would like to vote for working class but I don't see this as an option... why there's no this option?

Because the person who made the poll isn't a far left infantile?

Thats the equivalent to a girl in a beauty pagent answering every question with ' I want world peace'.

I am a critical support of Hamas, in that I support Palestinian resistance though of course I have reservations about alot of their stances. PFLP ftw.

[Revy]

I support a secular state including what is Israel, West Bank and Gaza, with equality for all.

"Palestine" used to be neutral before the creation of Israel, and it referred to both Arabs and Jews from there. It is also more secular since Israel means "persevere with God" while Palestine just comes from "Philistine".

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Voted Palestine.

What the Israelis are doing in Palestine is inhumane. It's as if genocide is happening to a certain extent.

I'm not a huge fan of militants killing innocent people, but I don't strongly oppose the Hamas either. I mean, when you're the US of the middle east and you're starving people in an occupied country, you're going to piss off some people... and that's exactly what's happened with the Hamas.

The way I see it, those rockets aren't necessarily 'meant' to kill people, but a way to send a message to the Israeli government.
I'm sure that must come as a great comfort to the Israeli civilians who're killed and maimed by them, to know it's nothing personal. When the Israeli Defence Force carries out its mass murders, they aren't necessarily "meant" to kill people either, but as a way to send a message to Hamas; that doesn't change the fact that it's fucking disgusting. When Hamas attack trade unionists (http://libcom.org/library/interview-rasem-al-bayari-palestinian-trade-unionist) and break strikes (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iP-WmSiJvPt1tiIFyJFTgqsT086A?index=0) and murder political opponents (http://amnesty.no/web.nsf/e5722b7d3d39bdeac12570bc004e3c33/73b6833d97d1dd02c1257559003be0fe?OpenDocument), I'm sure they're just doing it because they want to send a message to the Palestinian population; it doesn't change the fact that they're the enemies of our class, just as much as the Israeli government or any other faction of the bourgeoisie.

Because the person who made the poll isn't a far left infantile?

Thats the equivalent to a girl in a beauty pagent answering every question with ' I want world peace'.

I am a critical support of Hamas, in that I support Palestinian resistance though of course I have reservations about alot of their stances. PFLP ftw.
I suppose, by your standards, it'd also be infantile far-leftism to say that you don't like the Democrats or the Republicans?

[black_tambourine]

I suppose, by your standards, it'd also be infantile far-leftism to say that you don't like the Democrats or the Republicans?

Since Republicans aren't bombing Democrats en masse, forcing them to live in camps, cutting off food supplies, etc, etc, etc, this analogy really doesn't apply at all.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I'm sure that must come as a great comfort to the Israeli civilians who're killed and maimed by them, to know it's nothing personal.
Does it really matter? These people live there in full knowledge of the fact that they are invaders and that they are going to be treated as such. They support a government which is capitalist, imperialist, and terrorist in nature, they are no better than Nazi sympathisers in Europe, supporters of unionism in Ireland, or white supremacists in Africa.

[Leo]

Since Republicans aren't bombing Democrats en masseWell, some of them are sort of bombing abortion clinics, the staff of which are probably Democrats.


What the Israelis are doing in Palestine is inhumane. True. What Hamas and Fatah is doing in Palestine is also inhumane.


but I don't strongly oppose the Hamas either. I mean, when you're the US of the middle east and you're starving people in an occupied country, you're going to piss off some people... and that's exactly what's happened with the Hamas.And I suppose thats why Hamas is constantly murdering local dissidents and militant workers and suppressing workers struggles whenever able to. Yes, they must be very angry, against the Palestinian proletarians who do not want to starve that is.


PFLP ftw. The same PFLP who, today is nothing but a basically minor force which is tailing Hamas?


Does it really matter?

Lives of workers never matters to a Stalinist.

[black_tambourine]

I'm sure that must come as a great comfort to the Israeli civilians who're killed and maimed by them, to know it's nothing personal. When the Israeli Defence Force carries out its mass murders, they aren't necessarily "meant" to kill people either, but as a way to send a message to Hamas; that doesn't change the fact that it's fucking disgusting. When Hamas attack trade unionists and break strikes and murder political opponents, I'm sure they're just doing it because they want to send a message to the Palestinian population; it doesn't change the fact that they're the enemies of our class, just as much as the Israeli government or any other faction of the bourgeoisie.


Heh heh, I just noticed that the last two links in that post refer to a suppression of a strike of medics in war-ruined Gaza, and the gangster-style killing of approximately two-dozen people, respectively. Yes, how dare Hamas break a medical strike! Better to let hundreds or thousands more Palestinians die from lack of care than to impinge one millimeter onto the dignity of heroic proletarian Fatah-loyalist doctors!

And two dozen dead from political violence is the exact moral equivalent of thousands dead from a war of attrition explicitly targetting civilian infrastructure. The parallels are seamless.

Seriously, is that the best you can do?

[Spawn of Stalin]

Lives of workers never matters to a Stalinist.
Exactly, that's why we support the liberation of Palestine, so that we can form a bureaucratic Stalinist state with no workers, only the bourgeoisie will be allowed to live. Death to the workers, long live Palestine!

Really though, anyone who doesn't support the armed struggle is an idiot, how else are the Palestinian workers meant to liberate themselves? Maybe they could have a proletarian revolution, and then the wall will just come crumbling down on its own? Oh, no, that isn't scientifically possible. Or maybe we could all stand outside Marks & Spencer waving Palestinian flags, hoping that they will cave in under pressure, and then go on to convince the Israeli government to stop murdering the natives? Sorry, we already tried that. We could always wait for the United States to change its policy? Give me a break. You're a bunch of dreamers.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Does it really matter? These people live there in full knowledge of the fact that they are invaders and that they are going to be treated as such.Of course, how silly of me to forget that to be born in a country is exactly the same as supporting the actions of that country's government.


And two dozen dead from political violence is the exact moral equivalent of thousands dead from a war of attrition explicitly targetting civilian infrastructure. The parallels are seamless.

I think dead Palestinians resemble dead Palestinians quite a lot. I didn't realise that slaughtering Palestinian civilians suddenly becomes a good thing when it's Hamas doing it. Seriously, "heh heh"? That's your reaction to people being murdered?

[black_tambourine]

Of course, how silly of me to forget that to be born in a country is exactly the same as supporting the actions of that country's government.

I think dead Palestinians resemble dead Palestinians quite a lot. I didn't realise that slaughtering Palestinian civilians suddenly becomes a good thing when it's Hamas doing it. Seriously, "heh heh"? That's your reaction to people being murdered?

1. The people targeted by rocket attacks are settlers who live on recently-annexed Palestinian land, not a bunch of Joe Schmoes going about their business in Tel Aviv. They are fully aware of the potential consequences of their way of living, and have the same attitude toward the Palestinians as all colonizers have toward the colonized. If you doubt this, I recommend you look up some videos or photographs of the residents of these communities as they sat on lawn chairs and watched the Gaza bombings with binoculars, whooping and cheering as Palestinian women and children were massacred.

2. So, by the same token, Nestor Makhno or whatever anarchist idiot you probably hagiographize is the exact equivalent to Stalin, since they both killed Ukrainian civilians. Probably not a line of reasoning you want to pursue too far there, sport.

[Soldier of life]

I suppose, by your standards, it'd also be infantile far-leftism to say that you don't like the Democrats or the Republicans?

No I wouldn't say that.:wub:

[Leo]

Lives of workers never matters to a Stalinist. Exactly

I do appreciate your honesty.


Really though, anyone who doesn't support the armed struggle is an idiot

So convincing... :rolleyes:


how else are the Palestinian workers meant to liberate themselves? Maybe they could have a proletarian revolution, and then the wall will just come crumbling down on its own? Oh, no, that isn't scientifically possible.

Your comments betrays your lack of understanding of what an actual proletarian revolution is and you mocking the idea of Palestinian workers making a revolution betrays your chauvinism. A proletarian revolution, while it might begin in a single country, is never a national phenomenon. Yes, the Palestinian workers can liberate themselves by making a proletarian revolution, only by making a proletarian revolution - but not in isolation from the working classes of the other countries in the Middle East or the rest of the world. The same thing applies for all single countries while taken alone and isolated. A proletarian revolution is capable of taking place and remaining in place in a single country only if it is a part of an international revolutionary wave, and is doomed in the long run if the international wave fails.


Or maybe we could all stand outside Marks & Spencer waving Palestinian flags, hoping that they will cave in under pressure, and then go on to convince the Israeli government to stop murdering the natives? Sorry, we already tried that.

I am sure you did. We didn't though, since we are actually for the destruction of the Israeli state at the hands of the working class, and we would never beg mercy from bourgeois states with blood dripping from their teeth and nails, unlike you.

[ls]

Heh heh, I just noticed that the last two links in that post refer to a suppression of a strike of medics in war-ruined Gaza, and the gangster-style killing of approximately two-dozen people, respectively. Yes, how dare Hamas break a medical strike! Better to let hundreds or thousands more Palestinians die from lack of care than to impinge one millimeter onto the dignity of heroic proletarian Fatah-loyalist doctors!

I thought you would support the PLO and thus Fatah, PFLP etc. What's your position on them?

[Spawn of Stalin]

Your comments betrays your lack of understanding of what an actual proletarian revolution is and you mocking the idea of Palestinian workers making a revolution betrays your chauvinism. A proletarian revolution, while it might begin in a single country, is never a national phenomenon. Yes, the Palestinian workers can liberate themselves by making a proletarian revolution, only by making a proletarian revolution - but not in isolation from the working classes of the other countries in the Middle East or the rest of the world. The same thing applies for all single countries while taken alone and isolated. A proletarian revolution is capable of taking place and remaining in place in a single country only if it is a part of an international revolutionary wave, and is doomed in the long run if the international wave fails.
I'm not going to discuss socialism in one country with you. All I want to know is how you propose the Palestinians liberate themselves without arms. Keep in mind the fact that they don't have the time to wait around for a utopian worldwide socialistic revolution which will never happen.

I am sure you did. We didn't though, since we are actually for the destruction of the Israeli state at the hands of the working class, and we would never beg mercy from bourgeois states with blood dripping from their teeth and nails, unlike you.
Yes, I too am for the destruction of the Israeli state, as demonstrated by my support for the resistance. I do not know what gave you the idea that I beg mercy from bourgeois states, I do nothing of the sort, and I'd appreciate a little respect.

[black_tambourine]

I thought you would support the PLO and thus Fatah, PFLP etc. What's your position on them?

Fatah were okay up until the early 90s, but they're too corrupt and accommodationist now. The PFLP are still awesome but they are too small to matter. Believe me, I'm not thrilled that the only viable, popularly-legitimized liberation movement in Palestine is a bunch of theocratic jerks like Hamas. But them's the breaks.

And besides, doctors going on strike in a country that hasn't even begun to recover from being bombed into virtual uninhabitability, and is still under an embargo of basic survival materials: that just isn't right. Party affiliations don't even matter at that point.

[Leo]

I'm not going to discuss socialism in one country with you. All I want to know is how you propose the Palestinians liberate themselves without arms.

Oh, I am not proposing that Palestinians can liberate themselves without arms. I am saying that what matters is whether bourgeois factions like Hamas and Fatah or the Palestinian workers themselves are in control of the arms.


Keep in mind the fact that they don't have the time to wait around for a utopian worldwide socialistic revolution which will never happen.

Yet they have time to "wait" for the oh-so-not-utopian liberation promised by their oh-so-honest ruling classes yet never fulfilled?

I have no doubt that you think the world socialist revolution which will never happen but a ruling class is capable of liberating working people, and by throwing a few bombs occasionally and then hiding behind the working people they are so nobly going to liberate when a military force superior to theirs comes in massacring that is. All counter-revolutionaries have a similar opinion of the world revolution and capabilities of the ruling class.


Yes, I too am for the destruction of the Israeli state, as demonstrated by my support for the resistance

I don't think your support for the 'resistance' demonstrates you are for the destruction of the Israeli state. To quote Lenin: "We judge a person not by what he says or thinks of himself but by his actions."

I don't think Palestinian nationalist factions are for the destruction of the Israeli state to begin with. Being bourgeois organizations, self-preservation is in their interests, and since the existence of the Israeli state is their reason for existence (in the case of Hamas, the direct reason for their existence as well as the formal one), they are not really for the destruction of the state of Israel. They are merely collaborators of the Israeli regime in massacring the working population of the area. Like all bourgeois national liberation movements, they are not capable of destroying the state they claim they are out to destroy. In bourgeois politics, only greater imperialist powers hold the privalage of being capable of drawing the maps again. And on that point: "We could always wait for the United States to change its policy? Give me a break."

[Spawn of Stalin]

To be honest when it comes to national liberation in Gaza, I think the line between bourgeois and proletarian forces is extremely blurry, and I don't think it is a line that particularly matters at this point. If the bourgeoisie have the means to protect innocent Palestinians then I am more than happy to support them in doing so, socialism can wait, staying alive is what really matters for these people.

[LeninBalls]

To quote Lenin: "We judge a person not by what [COLOR=black]he says or thinks of himself but by his actions."

So why are you judging Hamas by their ideology and not their actions, ie fighting imperialism?

[Red Dreadnought]

To be honest when it comes to national liberation in Gaza, I think the line between bourgeois and proletarian forces is extremely blurry, and I don't think it is a line that particularly matters at this point. If the bourgeoisie have the means to protect innocent Palestinians then I am more than happy to support them in doing so, socialism can wait, staying alive is what really matters for these people.

Do you really think that? If you think in strict military strategics it's very doubtous that Hamas, really defended their population: mobilizating them to death in basis of desperation, avoiding them to escape to Egipt (in colaboration with this state).

But if you think at global politic point of view it's clearer that Hamas or Al-Fatah politics bring palestinian population to isolation in the thin national perspective. For exemple, the creation of a ghetto at Gaza is not only responsability of Israel, Hamas is the reverse of that politic, ruling that guetto and utilising population for they ends. And of course, represing opposition or strikes at education.

[Leo]

I think the line between bourgeois and proletarian forces is extremely blurry

Yeah, so blurry that bourgeois forces are shooting proletarian forces in the streets.


If the bourgeoisie have the means to protect innocent Palestinians then

They are hiding like rats behind innocent hard working Palestinians when the massacrers actually arrive, what protection are you talking about? Throwing a few missiles every now and then provides no protection to the Palestinian workers, only gives a formal excuse to the IDF to come in and butcher Palestinian proletarians, an excuse which contributes only to the efforts of the Israeli bourgeoisie in making the massacres they commit seem more acceptable to the "international community".


So why are you judging Hamas by their ideology and not their actions, ie fighting imperialism?

I am not judging Hamas by their ideology, I don't think that they being a religious fundamentalist or deeply reactionary group is the main point, I think that the point is that they are shooting strikers and militant workers, that they are an organization founded by the very state they claim they are against, that their "fighting imperialism" in no way challanges but only serves world imperialism as well as the Israeli state, that they are hiding behind the Palestinian masses when masscres take place. These actions are what determine what Hamas is: just another bourgeois nationalist group, just another faction which serves imperialism despite claiming opposition to it.

[bailey_187]

yeh thats her!

I saw her too, she was outside with a really small man with a ladder

[ComradeMan]

I am not judging Hamas by their ideology, I don't think that they being a religious fundamentalist or deeply reactionary group is the main point,

I think it is a big part of the point in a Middle-Eastern context especially.

I think that the point is that they are shooting strikers and militant workers, that they are an organization founded by the very state they claim they are against, that their "fighting imperialism" in no way challanges but only serves world imperialism as well as the Israeli state, that they are hiding behind the Palestinian masses when masscres take place. These actions are what determine what Hamas is: just another bourgeois nationalist group, just another faction which serves imperialism despite claiming opposition to it.

I tend to agree.

[Die Rote Fahne]

One of the few places Jews were not persecuted, as they were in Europe, was the Arab countries.

When the Christians took Spain back. Jews went away with the Arabs.

Israel fucked shit up.

Israel needs to suffer repercussions for it's blatant illegal activity.

[Random Precision]

I think that calling on the Palestinian workers to abstain from the struggle against Israel, to unite with Israeli workers or whatever the trendy "internationalist" stance is at the moment demonstrates either incredible ignorance of the situation they're in or alternatively wishful thinking.

If you are faced with an aggressive foreign power that has expelled your parents or grandparents from land that used to be theirs, that encloses you and your family in big open-air concentration camps, that throws its weight behind efforts to take away even the crowded quarters and shitty living conditions you are in and give that space to its own citizens, that prevents you from obtaining sufficient food and water resources, that repeatedly carries out terror against you, your family and other members of what is defined as your national group even without provocation, you are not going to be thinking about Marx, Lenin, Luxemburg, Bordiga or whoever else's position on the national question. You are going to try to resist any way you can, and align yourself with whatever forces seem to be resisting the occupation at the moment, regardless of their class nature or the methods they choose to resist.

I think the case of the Palestinian struggle is one that any amount of theorizing on any basis is going to fail at. The only question is whether you're against oppression or not.

[ComradeMan]

One of the few places Jews were not persecuted, as they were in Europe, was the Arab countries.

When the Christians took Spain back. Jews went away with the Arabs.

Israel fucked shit up.

Israel needs to suffer repercussions for it's blatant illegal activity.

You are right with some of your historical points, However your last point....

This is the problem.... just who is going to suffer though? The Zionists of 50 years ago? The perpetrators of Deir Yassin?

Or perhaps innocent children who cannot help who they are by the accident of their birth...

Who do you mean by Israel? The State? The Jewish people? Secular or religious? The Jewish people who lived in Palestine before the state of Israel- would they be spared an onslaught? It's a complex issue.

You can't turn the clock back... in a way Zionism was some bizarre attempt to turn the clock back that has ended up in a mess.

I repeat, the only solution is a secular state of Israel and Jerusalem to be made an international city---- but like I said before, there's about as much chance as that happening as........

[Revy]

What's the difference between the PFLP and the DFLP? There's also the Palestinian People's Party (formerly called the Palestine Communist Party) and the Palestinian Democratic Union. A few of these groups are splits from each other but all four managed to participate in a joint list called al-Badeel back in 2006.

[Leo]

I think that calling on the Palestinian workers to abstain from the struggle against Israel, to unite with Israeli workers or whatever the trendy "internationalist" stance is at the moment demonstrates either incredible ignorance of the situation they're in or alternatively wishful thinking.

So instead of uniting with fellow workers in the Middle East (not only Jewish ones but other Arab workers and Persian, Kurdish, Turkish etc. workers) you think calling for the Palestinian workers to unite with the bourgeois nationalists of Hamas or Fatah who murder them on the streets is not incredible ignorant or thinking that it will be good for workers is not wishful thinking?

Of course there is nothing particularly "trendy" of internationalism: it has always been the stance of true revolutionaries.


If you are faced with an aggressive foreign power that has expelled your parents or grandparents from land that used to be theirs, that encloses you and your family in big open-air concentration camps, that throws its weight behind efforts to take away even the crowded quarters and shitty living conditions you are in and give that space to its own citizens, that prevents you from obtaining sufficient food and water resources, that repeatedly carries out terror against you, your family and other members of what is defined as your national group even without provocation, you are not going to be thinking about what Marx, Lenin, Luxemburg, Bordiga or whoever else's position on the national question. You are going to try to resist any way you can, and align yourself with whatever forces seem to be resisting the occupation at the moment, regardless of their class nature or the methods they choose to resist.

So you think that workers should align themselves with forces that murder them on the streets, use them as human shields, are not really against the state or the conditions that oppress them in their deeds but only in their words as if that is going to help them?

[Artemis3]

Have you ever tried looking at things from a Jewish point of view?

As for using a religious argument, well, that's dodgy because technically speaking Orthodox Judaism cannot recognise the legitimacy of the state of Israel as only the Messiah can recreate the kingdom of the twelve tribes.

The only solution in my opinion is for a secular state of Israel to be created and Jerusalem to be declared an international city, but I admit there's about as much chance as that happening as, well, you know what.....

Neturei Karta sums it up: http://www.nkusa.org/
Zionism is not Judaism, and in fact one goes against the other...

BTW: Jerusalem has a special status made at the UN resolution that gave birth to the Israeli state; resolution Zionists keep disobeying...

http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/images/IID%20Statement%202009%20E.jpghttp://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/images/IID%20Statement%202009%20E1.jpg (http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/20090429IID.cfm)

"we fast and gather in Synagogues around the world, praying for a total, speedy and peaceful dismantlement of the heretical Zionist ‘State of Israel’, to be replaced by a free Palestine and a free Jerusalem entirely in accordance with the aspirations of the Palestinian people."

[Random Precision]

So instead of uniting with fellow workers in the Middle East (not only Jewish ones but other Arab workers and Persian, Kurdish, Turkish etc. workers) you think calling for the Palestinian workers to unite with the bourgeois nationalists of Hamas or Fatah who murder them on the streets is not incredible ignorant or thinking that it will be good for workers is not wishful thinking?

How do you see Palestinian workers being able to unite with "other Arab workers" when they live in what are essentially open air prisons, which are constantly under a state of siege, and cut off from access to those workers? And why do you think they will be able to unite with Israeli workers when a large section of them act directly to keep Palestinian workers oppressed (through service in the IDF etc) or at best wishes to have nothing to do with them, and keep their ethnic privileges?


So you think that workers should align themselves with forces that murder them on the streets, use them as human shields, are not really against the state or the conditions that oppress them in their deeds but only in their words as if that is going to help them?

I think they should resist the occupation, through whatever means they see fit. In their situation it is the only option available, anything else, as I said, can only be wishful thinking at this juncture.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

In answer to the poll,

Palestine, Palestine, Palestine. A Palestine that treats Arab and Jew equally, a Palestine that is free from Zionist and US imperialist terror. A Palestine free of injustice, a Palestine free of occupation, a Palestine free to find the destiny of its working-masses in democracy and socialism.

For this to happen, the Zionist settler-state must be crushed politically and militarily. There can be no peace in the region while the racist ruling-class of Israel continues to oppress the Arab people, with a blank cheque from US imperialism.

Those who equate Hamas with the IDF need to reconsider their whole reason for being leftists in the first place. This "internationalist" posturing will get us nowhere in winning the support of the Arab working-masses.

The only internationalist position here is to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Palestinian resistance, whoever leads it, and to hope for the victory of our comrades in the PFLP, DFLP and PPP.

There can be no compromise with the Zionist Entity, because it only understands the language of force.

Thawra hatta-al-Nasr!
Revolution until victory!
Intifada until liberation.
A free Palestine or death.

[bricolage]

Neturei Karta sums it up: http://www.nkusa.org/
Zionism is not Judaism, and in fact one goes against the other...

Neturei Karta base their opposition to Israel entirely on religious grounds, if they appear to take it anywhere beyond that it is only to gain support. The point being their reasons for opposing Israel mean nothing to us and considering this is the same Neturei Karta who are happy to sit with Ahmadinejad, Faurisson and David Duke at a conference to 'review' the Holocaust I have no time for them whatsoever.

Jews should oppose Israel because it is racist, exclusionary state that is all to happy to butcher Palestinians not because it somehow goes against Judaism. That's like saying if somehow Judaism did equate to Zionism we would have to support it. Bullshit. And I say this as a Jew.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I am pro-Palestine, simply to balance the conflict, in that currently the Palestinians are clearly living wretched lives at the hands of their Israeli oppressors. All I seek is peace between the two sides, or at least the end of hardship for those in the middle of the conflict, the ordinary Palestinian people.

I bear no wish to see Israel demolished, although it must end its persecution not only of Gazans and those in the West Bank, but also of the West Bank.

As somebody who has grown up in a Jewish family, I wish to see the continued existence of Israel in a modified form - it must cede huge territories back to the Palestinians and grant them full sovereignity over these ceded lands. It must also allow free migration into Israel, with full human rights, for all people, not just those with the 'right of return.' Above all, it must abandon the notion of the 'Jewish state', and become a homeland for all those with Jewish origins, and all others who wish to join such a society. Only then could I support Israel. Until then, Zionism must be opposed in the strongest possible way.

[Revy]

In answer to the poll,

Palestine, Palestine, Palestine. A Palestine that treats Arab and Jew equally, a Palestine that is free from Zionist and US imperialist terror. A Palestine free of injustice, a Palestine free of occupation, a Palestine free to find the destiny of its working-masses in democracy and socialism.

For this to happen, the Zionist settler-state must be crushed politically and militarily. There can be no peace in the region while the racist ruling-class of Israel continues to oppress the Arab people, with a blank cheque from US imperialism.

Those who equate Hamas with the IDF need to reconsider their whole reason for being leftists in the first place. This "internationalist" posturing will get us nowhere in winning the support of the Arab working-masses.

The only internationalist position here is to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Palestinian resistance, whoever leads it, and to hope for the victory of our comrades in the PFLP, DFLP and PPP.

There can be no compromise with the Zionist Entity, because it only understands the language of force.

Thawra hatta-al-Nasr!
Revolution until victory!
Intifada until liberation.
A free Palestine or death.

Well said!:thumbup1:

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Israel needs to suffer repercussions for it's blatant illegal activity.
As opposed to all the good states that only do nice things?


Jews should oppose Israel because it is racist, exclusionary state that is all to happy to butcher Palestinians not because it somehow goes against Judaism. That's like saying if somehow Judaism did equate to Zionism we would have to support it. Bullshit. And I say this as a Jew.
There's also the fundamental point that I don't really think there is a "Jewish point of view", any more than there's an "English point of view" shared by me, you, David Cameron and Nick Griffin. It's just not a helpful term.

[ComradeMan]

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the past are, the present has its problems too--- namely demographics.

Using the rough guide (albeit non ideal) of religion to ascertain population dynamics-

75% Jewish of which 68% were born in Israel.
16% Muslim
2% Christian
1.5% Druze

The numbers are no longer on the side of the Palestinian Muslims.

With the destruction of an Israeli state, as some here espouse, then approximately 75% of the population of Israel, approximetely 5.5 million people are going to go exactly where?

The other problem is the distribution of people. Everyone knows about the Occuppied territories but many Arab-Israelis do not come from the occupied territories to start with. Not all Jewish-Israelis are settlers either.

The situation is a mess.

[blake 3:17]

The Israelis have no interest in the exploitation of Palestinian workers. They want them gone GONE gone gone gone gone gone gone gone gone gone. And gone! It's a land grab, just like Canada or the US. The process has just been a lot quicker.


How do you see Palestinian workers being able to unite with "other Arab workers" when they live in what are essentially open air prisons, which are constantly under a state of siege, and cut off from access to those workers? And why do you think they will be able to unite with Israeli workers when a large section of them act directly to keep Palestinian workers oppressed (through service in the IDF etc) or at best wishes to have nothing to do with them, and keep their ethnic privileges?


The Palestinian unemployment rate is reported at around 30%, but that's probably a pretty low figure. Large numbers of Palestinians have NEVER had a job. Not one. The Israelis have very deliberately excluded Palestinians from being able to work, and in recent years, more aggressively excluded them from education. Like, by dropping bombs on their schools.

The Israeli labour movement is one of the most viciously racist in the world. It was founded to exclude Palestinian workers from the work force.

The only space of unity I can see between Israeli and Palestinian workers, is through Israeli support for the BDS (Boycott, Divest, and Sanctions) campaign. This is not going to happen through the Zionist unions, it's going to be through the organization of Israeli dissidents that recognize 1) Israeli apartheid is morally wrong and 2) the alternatives are so much worse.


Using the rough guide (albeit non ideal) of religion to ascertain population dynamics-

75% Jewish of which 68% were born in Israel.
16% Muslim
2% Christian
1.5% Druze

The numbers are no longer on the side of the Palestinian Muslims.



Where those figures from? I don't think they include the West Bank or the prison of people known as Gaza. A lot of Palestinians are not Muslim. How many Palestinians are in Jordan?

A Palestinian refugee friend has been told to "go back to where you come from" by Zionists. Her answer? That's what I'm trying to do.


The situation is a mess.

And our job is not to provide perfect solutions for the peoples of the Middle East. The whole world is watching the destruction of a people. It's messy, but not all that complicated.

Here's a link to a speech by Azmi Bishara, speaking in South Africa at Israeli Apartheid Week 2008. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6_Aw812feQ I think it is brilliant and lucid and right.

[Random Precision]

Using the rough guide (albeit non ideal) of religion to ascertain population dynamics-

75% Jewish of which 68% were born in Israel.
16% Muslim
2% Christian
1.5% Druze

The numbers are no longer on the side of the Palestinian Muslims.

You are accepting Zionist number crunching and territory claims at face value. The fact is that all of Palestine is Israeli territory currently. Israel is the only state there, regardless of whether it calls this or that place "occupied" or not.

If you take all of Israeli territory into account, which is much more honest the number is 48% Jews and 49.3% Palestinian Arabs (link (http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article3649.shtml)). This is something the Zionist state is very aware of, its best minds have been working on the "demographic problem" for years, which is that in a few decades Palestinians will have a decisive majority, since they have a much higher birth rate, and a much younger population on average. Even with large amounts of Jewish immigration in the next decades Israel is still going to lose this fight. Hence the settlements, hence the destruction of homes.

Plus breaking down Israel's population by religion is totally bogus. At least a tenth of Palestinian Arabs are Christians. They are not more likely than Muslims to support Israel or anything like that. A lot of them support Hamas actually. You're just buying into the ways that Zionists juke the stats here.


With the destruction of an Israeli state, as some here espouse, then approximately 75% of the population of Israel, approximetely 5.5 million people are going to go exactly where?

It's not for revolutionaries to concern themselves about what settlers will do when the settler colony is gone. When Algeria gained independence the pied noirs went back to France. I expect in a liberated Palestine many Jews would go to the United States, and those who wanted to stay would be allowed to.


The other problem is the distribution of people. Everyone knows about the Occuppied territories but many Arab-Israelis do not come from the occupied territories to start with.

As I said, the distinction between "occupied territory" and the rest of Israel is completely false for our purposes.


Not all Jewish-Israelis are settlers either.

Meh, a few thousand Jews lived in Palestine before the first aliya. Their descendants must form a tiny minority compared to the rest who are settlers or descendants of settlers.

[Random Precision]

The Palestinian unemployment rate is reported at around 30%, but that's probably a pretty low figure. Large numbers of Palestinians have NEVER had a job. Not one. The Israelis have very deliberately excluded Palestinians from being able to work, and in recent years, more aggressively excluded them from education. Like, by dropping bombs on their schools.

The most recent statistics I have heard is that unemployment is at 67% in the Gaza Strip and 40% in the West Bank. This is from last year, it could be different now since the campaign against Gaza.

And of course most Palestinians with jobs work either in Israel proper or in Israeli firms in the occupied territories, such as the infamous industrial parks. If the former, they are often unable to get a permit to do so and are liable to be jailed, fired etc if caught. If the latter, which is increasingly the case, it obstructs native industry and increases the occupied territories' neocolonial subjugation to Israel.

[pastradamus]

Who the fuck voted for Israel? Im going to find you and beat you with my shoe!

[Andropov]

Who the fuck voted for Israel? Im going to find you and beat you with my shoe!
Ill throw you one of my Airs.

[pastradamus]

The most recent statistics I have heard is that unemployment is at 67% in the Gaza Strip and 40% in the West Bank. This is from last year, it could be different now since the campaign against Gaza.

And of course most Palestinians with jobs work either in Israel proper or in Israeli firms in the occupied territories, such as the infamous industrial parks. If the former, they are often unable to get a permit to do so and are liable to be jailed, fired etc if caught. If the latter, which is increasingly the case, it obstructs native industry and increases the occupied territories' neocolonial subjugation to Israel.

Asolutely. One must also take into account that the Israeli Human Developement Index is ranked 27th in the world whilst Palestines (west bank & Gaza) is ranked 110th and has not experienced any growth in this area in over 10 years.

[blake 3:17]

On a related note:

For Free Expression on Palestine

Welcome to the campaign for free expression on Palestine. The campaign and this site are works-in-progress.
Please see our articles section (http://www.freeexpressionpalestine.org/node) for the latest materials.
Our declaration is as follows:
We believe that discussion and debate on the Israel/Palestine conflict falls within the realm of free expression and should not be suppressed. We believe that political criticism is among the classes of speech we should be most interested in promoting and protecting.
We demand that the full range of views on the conflict, from Israel advocacy to Palestine advocacy, be protected and not be subject to bans, penalties, or sanctions.
We reject hate speech, anti-Semitism, incitement to violence, racism and discrimination. We believe that discussion, debate, and advocacy around Palestine and Israel should be conducted in opposition to all forms of racism, discrimination, Islamophobia, and anti-Semitism.

We do not believe that characterizing Israel as an ‘apartheid state’ or campaigning for ‘boycotts, divestment, and sanctions’ against Israel constitutes hate speech, anti-Semitism, incitement to violence, racism, or discrimination. We need not agree with these characterizations or campaigns to agree that these are legitimate positions that should be protected on free speech grounds.

We believe that speech that is critical of a government and its policies, which does not target an ethnicity, nationality, or religion, must not be suppressed by a democratic society. Criticizing Israeli policies toward the Palestinians does not target Jewish people just as criticizing Sudan's policies in Darfur does not target Sudanese people, criticizing Saddam Hussein's past treatment of the Kurds did not target Iraqi or Arab people, criticizing China’s policies in Tibet does not target Chinese people, and criticizing the U.S. occupation of Iraq does not target American people.





Link: http://www.freeexpressionpalestine.org/

Edited to add: A number of universities have tried to stifle speech on the issue of Israel/Palestine. Palestinian rights activists have been mostly targeted. We should be able to discuss the issues without being threatened with expulsion, penalty, or unemployment.

[ComradeMan]

[QUOTE=Random Precision;1614915]

Re stats- they were taken from sites on a quick basis, I have looked at your stats and was interested to see the discrepencies.

Plus breaking down Israel's population by religion is totally bogus. At least a tenth of Palestinian Arabs are Christians. They are not more likely than Muslims to support Israel or anything like that. A lot of them support Hamas actually. You're just buying into the ways that Zionists juke the stats here.

I did state a "rough" idea admitting that this is not the ideal way to break down stats.


It's not for revolutionaries to concern themselves about what settlers will do when the settler colony is gone. When Algeria gained independence the pied noirs went back to France. I expect in a liberated Palestine many Jews would go to the United States, and those who wanted to stay would be allowed to.

This concerns me. Going off all the stats I still arrive at about 5.2 million people who you can't just write off. That's 5.2 milion men, women and children for crying out loud!!! Good, bad and indifferent that is still a hell of a lot of people. Where are a potential 5 or so million people just going to go? How would an American citizen feel if a Native American demanded he or she handed over their house and land? Is America not a settled land? What about a New Zealand or an Australian? We can't work on these bases, especially in the case of Israel- I don't think it is comparable to an Algeria or a Zimbabwe- in those two examples the "settlers" were at least citizen and passport holder of another country.

As I said, the distinction between "occupied territory" and the rest of Israel is completely false for our purposes.

I agree- Don't get me wrong, I am not defending Zionism here but rather underline the human element to this all.

Meh, a few thousand Jews lived in Palestine before the first aliya. Their descendants must form a tiny minority compared to the rest who are settlers or descendants of settlers.

So aren't we interested in a minority any more?

How many innocent people on all sides have to be killed before this is sorted out?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Who the fuck voted for Israel? Im going to find you and beat you with my shoe!


To be fair, (and I didn't vote), it was just a stupid poll.

I would be disappointed in anybody who took sides in this conflict, in that, although I currently support the Palestinian cause, I do so because of prevailing conditions in the conflict. I don't really wish to see the elimination of an Israeli state (though, naturally I don't wish to see the existence of a Jewish state), and I would think that there are no grounds for any comrade to want anything other than either an inclusive one-state solution, or a two-state solution.

[ComradeMan]

To be fair, (and I didn't vote), it was just a stupid poll.

I would be disappointed in anybody who took sides in this conflict, in that, although I currently support the Palestinian cause, I do so because of prevailing conditions in the conflict. I don't really wish to see the elimination of an Israeli state (though, naturally I don't wish to see the existence of a Jewish state), and I would think that there are no grounds for any comrade to want anything other than either an inclusive one-state solution, or a two-state solution.


I think the poll should perhaps have included the options-

Current Isreali State
"Secular" Israeli State
Two-State Solution Partition
Re-unified Palestine (secular? Islamic?)
Other

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The first option would probably not be necessary:lol:

I am torn between a secular Israeli state and a two-state partition. I'll have to have a deeper think about the subject before returning to the debate.

[Random Precision]

This concerns me. Going off all the stats I still arrive at about 5.2 million people who you can't just write off. That's 5.2 milion men, women and children for crying out loud!!! Good, bad and indifferent that is still a hell of a lot of people. Where are a potential 5 or so million people just going to go?

First of all we are not at a stage in the conflict where we are able to talk about what will happen to the settlers, because for now and in the short term at least, the settler state is by far the military superior of the resistance, and it is in the position of exercising a tremendous amount of control over the lives of native Palestinians whether they are actively resisting the occupation or not. Right now we are still talking about how to defeat the occupation.

If the occupation is defeated somehow, and I think that there is a strong possibility of this happening in the next couple decades with the demographic challenge that Israel cannot win, and the decline of the United States as its main supporter, it is something that will have to be dealt with. I think at the present, and at any point where we would see a defeat of Israel, the majority of the Jewish population would not want to live in a state where their ethnic privileges are not preserved. Hence my scenario of the United States taking in many that leave Palestine. Others who accept a secular Palestine and living equally with Arabs hopefully would be able to stay. How this will work, we will have to see when it happens.


How would an American citizen feel if a Native American demanded he or she handed over their house and land? Is America not a settled land? What about a New Zealand or an Australian?

If the process of settlement in the United States, New Zealand, Australia were still at a stage where it could be decisively reversed, absolutely, I would support Native Americans, Maoris, Aboriginals' demand to have back the lands that were under white settler colonization. But in all of these countries, the demographics are such that the native inhabitants now are a tiny minority against an overwhelming settler majority. When this happens, we have to adjust to what the reality is. This doesn't mean that we abandon support for the struggle for native rights in any of these countries, and fight against further settler land-grabs and for the return of territories that the natives are able to take back, and for their autonomy from the settler government.

In Palestine, this process is still at a stage where it could be decisively reversed. This is why the Zionist state is so eager to "create realities on the ground" as it were, to settle all the lands with an Arab majority and impose a tight military regime over the lives of all the Arab inhabitants living within its boundaries, to make the situation in all of Palestine such that it cannot be reversed in any manner. As communists we have to stand against this.


We can't work on these bases, especially in the case of Israel- I don't think it is comparable to an Algeria or a Zimbabwe- in those two examples the "settlers" were at least citizen and passport holder of another country.

People move around all the time and become citizens of other countries. I don't know what makes the Israeli Jews so special that they couldn't do this as well.

[ComradeMan]

Random Precision.

You make some good points. I still believe though your view of the future and solution is somewhat theoretical and perhaps utopian.

I have a vision of a bloodbath- provoked by US interests as well. I hope I am wrong.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

The first option would probably not be necessary:lol:

I am torn between a secular Israeli state and a two-state partition. I'll have to have a deeper think about the subject before returning to the debate.

That's not our call, comrade.

The Palestinian people will decide.

So far, it seems that they will not agree to a two-state solution which involves Palestine as a small, enclosed and besieged puppet state of Israel. That is the "two-state solution" which US imperialism wants. The Palestinian people, by rallying behind the Resistance, have proven that this is not what they want.

As for a two-state solution that involves Israel giving up East Jerusalem, letting go of its settlements in the West Bank and allowing full sovereignty to the Palestinian state, that is coming closer and closer to impossible, thanks to the actions of the Zionist Entity.

[Tyrannosaurus Che]

I support neither. Both sides are led by deranged religious fanatics who believe that they're entitled to the same tiny piece of desert because some imaginary sky man said so.

That said, if I had to pick a side to hate more, it would be the Israelis. They were the morons who decided to move into a region surrounded by people who hated their religion. If the Jews were truly motivated by a desire for a sanctuary protecting them from antisemitism (as opposed to being motivated by idiotic religious views), they would have moved to Uganda or some other part of the world which is not infested with antisemites.

Religion's power to turn people into complete morons cannot be understated.

[ComradeMan]

I support neither. Both sides are led by deranged religious fanatics who believe that they're entitled to the same tiny piece of desert because some imaginary sky man said so.

That said, if I had to pick a side to hate more, it would be the Israelis. They were the morons who decided to move into a region surrounded by people who hated their religion. If the Jews were truly motivated by a desire for a sanctuary protecting them from antisemitism (as opposed to being motivated by idiotic religious views), they would have moved to Uganda or some other part of the world which is not infested with antisemites.

Religion's power to turn people into complete morons cannot be understated.

Although I see your point of view on the first comment you make I think you need to be aware of a couple of things:-
1. The tragedy of this from the Jewish (non-Zionist) point of view is that Jews were not hated in the region at all really. In fact Sephardic Jews has lived in the wider Arabic speaking word for millenia.
2. I think it's ironic you chose Uganda- Idi Amin is long gone but Uganda was not famous for her pro-Semitism or pro-immgrant policies! :)

[Random Precision]

I support neither. Both sides are led by deranged religious fanatics who believe that they're entitled to the same tiny piece of desert because some imaginary sky man said so.

That said, if I had to pick a side to hate more, it would be the Israelis. They were the morons who decided to move into a region surrounded by people who hated their religion. If the Jews were truly motivated by a desire for a sanctuary protecting them from antisemitism (as opposed to being motivated by idiotic religious views), they would have moved to Uganda or some other part of the world which is not infested with antisemites.

Religion's power to turn people into complete morons cannot be understated.

LOL. There was no "antisemitism" in Palestine before an aggressive colonial movement that happened to be Jewish took up residence there and started kicking people off the land they had lived on for centuries. As I mentioned there were even a couple thousand Jews living there with complete freedom and in harmony with the Arab population. They even spoke Arabic too. The Palestinian leadership as late as the seventies and eighties was still talking about how they distinguished between Jews and Zionists. HAMAS put an end to that, but I guess you reap what you sow.

And of course Palestinians don't believe "they're entitled to a small piece of land because some imaginary sky man told them so", it's because they actually did fucking live on it before they were forced to flee by an invading army carrying out massacres.

You're a fucking disgrace if you call yourself any kind of revolutionary.

[bcbm]

You're a fucking disgrace if you call yourself any kind of revolutionary.

this was really unnecessary. please don't flame.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

HAMAS put an end to that, but I guess you reap what you sow.

Quite literally, according to some sources (http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html).

[Random Precision]

2. I think it's ironic you chose Uganda- Idi Amin is long gone but Uganda was not famous for her pro-Semitism or pro-immgrant policies! :)

Actually Britain did offer the early World Zionist Organization space in Uganda to set up a Jewish colony. Theodor Herzl supported the proposal, but the Russian Jews who dominated the WZO insisted on Palestine from very early on.


this was really unnecessary. please don't flame.

Regardless of your position on the Palestine struggle I think anyone on the left would agree that reducing it to a religious conflict is the height of idiocy. Nevertheless you are right, I'll have someone warn me for it.

EDIT: August gave me an infraction, since I have been warned repeatedly for flaming already.

[bcbm]

Regardless of your position on the Palestine struggle I think anyone on the left would agree that reducing it to a religious conflict is the height of idiocy.i'm not saying their position is well thought out, but it is the dominant view in society and, given that this is a new user, i think it would be fair to assume they're new to revolutionary politics and probably haven't encountered much challenging the ideas they've been exposed to for most of their life yet. as such, i think it makes more sense to politely correct them and try to explain the situation from a socialist viewpoint.


Nevertheless you are right, I'll have someone warn me for it.it would've warranted a verbal warning at the most, i don't think you need to bother.

[ComradeMan]

Actually Britain did offer the early World Zionist Organization space in Uganda to set up a Jewish colony. Theodor Herzl supported the proposal, but the Russian Jews who dominated the WZO insisted on Palestine from very early on.


Well there you go, that's something I didn't know. Thanks.