WTO riots

[Comrade Gwydion]

I've heard on the news that there have been riots at the seat of the WTO in Geneve. Anyone know more about this?

[bcbm]

edit: fucking formatting fucking up again fuck http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jXHfuzb2YE2F0kO7XgnShx7Xh1dA

[KurtFF8]

Doesn't really seem like they were riots. These kind of activities seem quite commonplace these days at conferences like this.

[Uncle Ho]

It's useless bourgeoisie punks blowing off steam for socialist street cred before they download their new Iphone apps. They are, at best, totally rudderless and unorganized, and they seem to think halfheartedly rolling dumpsters at the cops while dressed like it's Halloween is the best way to institute social change.

These "protests" always have been and always will be ignored, and it seems these kids are doing nothing but trying to one-up each other in terms of patheticness. At the recent G20 summit, some protesters got their hands on a tank, drove it through police lines, then were waved to a stop and arrested by a single policeman. At an event before that, the "dreaded" Black Bloc walked menacingly towards police, holding their witty little sign, until the cops fired harmless colored smoke and the anarchists fled like startled hares. Then there were the RNC protests, where people stood idly by as riot police clubbed protesters, drug them behind police lines and then arrested them, along with journalists trying to cover the event.

Just let the kids have their fun pretending to be Socialists before they eventually become the heads of the very same system they claim to despise. Those with some backbone and genuine conviction will eventually take care of them.

[Sasha]

It's useless bourgeoisie punks.....

woops already stopped reading....

[Uncle Ho]

woops already stopped reading....

Why would you do that?

Are you afraid you might be one of them?

[Sasha]

euhhh yes i assume in your small mind i am....

typed an longer reply demolishing your post bit by bit but than couldnt be arsed to get in yet another stupid flamewar with an idiot "so much proler than you" twat.

[Uncle Ho]

If you refuse to stand and fight, you are worse than the bourgeoisie.

Every time a self-proclaimed anarchist runs from colored smoke, every time a journalist is clubbed and arrested, every time we stand idly by and let them win, the ruling class grows stronger.

You'd be better served doing nothing at all. It was time to nut up or shut up 80 years ago, and we've consistently chosen neither.

Small wonder then, that the vampires have sucked all but the last few drops from us.

[Ravachol]

It's useless bourgeoisie punks blowing off steam for socialist street cred before they download their new Iphone apps.

Well i do suppose the Android platform IS in fact better.
In all seriousness, motivate your post instead of just spewing insults at other activists.

[IllicitPopsicle]

And what are you doing but sitting in yer underwear on the internets and arguing about petty bourgeois punks and their socialist street cred?

Edit: In addition, it would seem that you, Uncle HO, are arguing with a forum mod. Meaning you're probably wrong anyway.

[IllicitPopsicle]

^^^That was to Uncle Ho.

[Uncle Ho]

And what are you doing but sitting in yer underwear on the internets and arguing about petty bourgeois punks and their socialist street cred?

Edit: In addition, it would seem that you, Uncle HO, are arguing with a forum mod. Meaning you're probably wrong anyway.

Well, after helping activists on the reservation rebuild homes, providing school supplies for children and assisting the people in filling out (and making sure they receive) benefits, we staged another action in which we shut down Whiteclay, NE on Thanksgiving, dressed as stereotypical white men, throwing the liquor into the proverbial harbor.

There were a few cops, but we chased them off.

On Monday, I'm going to go to a meeting with the heads of coal mines in Wyoming, who have resisted unionization despite the pleas of their workers. We only got here after the keys to the main gates were mysteriously lost during the strike, and the mining equipment somehow all stopped working. Odd coincidence, isn't it? Perhaps the black cats lurking about were responsible for it.

We've also threatened to have the IBEW plant workers refuse to burn non-union coal, which would throw a large tract of the nation into brownouts.

It should be a busy week. Between my work and my union obligations, I won't have much time for anything but sleeping.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Wow, nice.

Simultaneously called my bluff and made me grin.

[IllicitPopsicle]

That is pretty awesome what you're doing though.

[Sasha]

damn, and here i go just sitting in my luxurious squat doing fuck all till the next riot magically breaks out and i can go vent my bourgosie punk anger (oh, and i'm writing on some job aplication letters to become CEO).

[Sasha]

anyway, back on topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Lz37h0Bfg

[the last donut of the night]

It's useless bourgeoisie punks blowing off steam for socialist street cred before they download their new Iphone apps. They are, at best, totally rudderless and unorganized, and they seem to think halfheartedly rolling dumpsters at the cops while dressed like it's Halloween is the best way to institute social change.

These "protests" always have been and always will be ignored, and it seems these kids are doing nothing but trying to one-up each other in terms of patheticness. At the recent G20 summit, some protesters got their hands on a tank, drove it through police lines, then were waved to a stop and arrested by a single policeman. At an event before that, the "dreaded" Black Bloc walked menacingly towards police, holding their witty little sign, until the cops fired harmless colored smoke and the anarchists fled like startled hares. Then there were the RNC protests, where people stood idly by as riot police clubbed protesters, drug them behind police lines and then arrested them, along with journalists trying to cover the event.

Just let the kids have their fun pretending to be Socialists before they eventually become the heads of the very same system they claim to despise. Those with some backbone and genuine conviction will eventually take care of them.


http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/3377/original/super-cool-story-bro.png?1244744947

[Andropov]

I still dont know what these riots will achieve.
They seem counter productive unless they can harness the whole working class and not just lifestylist teenagers.

[leninpuncher]

I still dont know what these riots will achieve.
They seem counter productive unless they can harness the whole working class and not just lifestylist teenagers.
The anti-war movement in the 60's, which radically changed the face of western society, came entirely out of universities, and consisted mostly of these "lifestylist teenagers". The same is true of the feminist movements, and large swathes of the civil rights movement.

In fact, almost every well-known Marxist revolutionary, and all of the theorists, were student activists at some point.

ITT uncomfortable truths.

[Andropov]

The anti-war movement in the 60's, which radically changed the face of western society, came entirely out of universities,
If you would actually read my post I never mentioned Universities.

and consisted mostly of these "lifestylist teenagers".
It is disputable whether the anit-war movement "radically changed the face of western society".
They were certainly progressive but the changes they helped implement fell short of being "radical".

The same is true of the feminist movements, and large swathes of the civil rights movement.
Actually ill think you will find that the lifestylist feminists of the 70s were overwhelmingly petty-bourgeois and reformist, yet again far short of "radical".
The feminist movement was largely hyjacked in the 70s by the liberal currents within it that existed from the turn of the century.
In fact I think you will find the greatest feminist thinkers were actually the likes of Bebel, Engels, Clara Zetkin, Rosa Luxemburg, Alexandra Kollontai and Lenin. These could not be characterised as lifestylists. But you seem to define lifesylists as University students which is slightly bizarre.

In fact, almost every well-known Marxist revolutionary, and all of the theorists, were student activists at some point.
Yet again equating University Students with lifestylists, indeed if that were the case then Lenin could have been defined as a lifestylist which is absurd.

ITT uncomfortable truths.
Not really since your whole arguement is based on the assumption that University Students equates to Lifestylists. So when you do expose some uncomfortable truths dont forget to let me know.

[bcbm]

Then there were the RNC protests, where people stood idly by as riot police clubbed protesters, drug them behind police lines and then arrested them

Rn4z5Gs6bPk


lifestylist teenagers

i think you can be a little more creative than this. :rolleyes:

[Uncle Ho]

Rn4z5Gs6bPk



i think you can be a little more creative than this. :rolleyes:

While it's commendable that someone actually had the guts to do something, this is an isolated incident of someone halfheartedly pouncing a lone, surrounded and non-riot cop.

For every one of these videos, I can find ten of "hardcore anarchists" fleeing from such deadly threats as colored smoke and loud noises. Even when they have a tank, they stop for such grave dangers as a policeman waving at them.

Courage of that level is truly awe-inspiring.

[Rusty Shackleford]

While it's commendable that someone actually had the guts to do something, this is an isolated incident of someone halfheartedly pouncing a lone, surrounded and non-riot cop.

For every one of these videos, I can find ten of "hardcore anarchists" fleeing from such deadly threats as colored smoke and loud noises. Even when they have a tank, they stop for such grave dangers as a policeman waving at them.

Courage of that level is truly awe-inspiring.


what is this tank you keep talking about. they took a riot van or something?

[bcbm]

While it's commendable that someone actually had the guts to do something, this is an isolated incident of someone halfheartedly pouncing a lone, surrounded and non-riot cop.

its not really isolated, de-arresting occurs at every major protest.


For every one of these videos, I can find ten of "hardcore anarchists" fleeing from such deadly threats as colored smoke and loud noises.

on the streets its a bit difficult to immediately figure out what the police are firing at you, but its worth noting that protesters have actually been a lot more confrontational at protests and been willing to engage the police more, at least if we compare the rnc 04 to the rnc 08 to the g20 in pittsburgh.

of course, the best strategy is to be where the cops aren't so you can do whatever you like. attempting a direct engagement with a better trained and armed force is stupid.


Even when they have a tank, they stop for such grave dangers as a policeman waving at them.

Courage of that level is truly awe-inspiring.

i can only assume you're talking about the space hijackers in london. for one, they were doing political theater and attempting to "join" the police forces. it also isn't a tank, but an apc. i mean what do you want them to do, plow over a line of police? the decades you'll spend in prison probably wouldn't be worth it.

[Uncle Ho]

its not really isolated, de-arresting occurs at every major protest.

Oh great, you free 4 of the 4000 people they illegally snatch.

Taking it to the man, one half measure at a time.


on the streets its a bit difficult to immediately figure out what the police are firing at you, but its worth noting that protesters have actually been a lot more confrontational at protests and been willing to engage the police more, at least if we compare the rnc 04 to the rnc 08 to the g20 in pittsburgh.Yeah, I suppose rolling dumpsters very slowly at police is a slight step up from fleeing in terror the second they look at you wrong. Who knows, in a decade, we might get people hitting cops with pillows.

That will really terrify them.


of course, the best strategy is to be where the cops aren't so you can do whatever you like. attempting a direct engagement with a better trained and armed force is stupid.Allowing them to be better armed and trained is the greatest reason why the western left has not succeeded, and will not for the foreseeable future.

Not only that, but 10,000 people with bats can easily overwhelm 100 with guns. You just need the courage to do it.


i can only assume you're talking about the space hijackers in london. for one, they were doing political theater and attempting to "join" the police forces. it also isn't a tank, but an apc. i mean what do you want them to do, plow over a line of police? the decades you'll spend in prison probably wouldn't be worth it.So wait, English leftists get their hands on military grade hardware which cannot be stopped with anything short of a helicopter airstrike and their best usage of it is theater?

Really? You have to be kidding, because I cannot fathom someone being THAT useless. It simply boggles my mind. It is even worse that anyone branding themselves a leftist would even associate with these people, as they fail to do anything but dillute the movement and prove to the ruling class that they can do anything they like, as there will be no response.

And yes, I would applaud them plowing over the police and right into the summit building. If their goal was to make the leaders listen (Which it isn't, being as they're bourgeoisie brats in it for "cred" alone), a tank through their walls would be a remarkably effective way to do it. If these kids were in this for what they claimed to be, the jail time would not be seen as a deterrent. The fact that they are terrified to be plucked from their cozy existence, skinned from the back of the Proletariat is proof that they are nothing but whiny little brats pitching a fit. They care about "the movement" only long enough to impress some members of the opposite sex, at what point they go back to willingly sipping the teat of their masters.

[bcbm]

you have a bizarre fixation on violent and illegal action against the police. the point of most protests isn't to fight the cops and, as fun as that can be, it ultimately isn't something of real importance right now. it doesn't matter if 10,000 people beat up some police if the remaining millions who make up our class aren't also organized and ready to fight for the destruction of capital. i also can't imagine having militants constantly doing pointless things and getting themselves locked up for decades would help move our class towards seizing power.

[Uncle Ho]

So you can't imagine how protesters trying to stop these meetings actually stopping them would be helpful?

Punks in silly masks with sandwich board and the hottest new Iphone apps, now THAT is how change is won. If only Mao, Lenin and Ho had dumpsters and the app store, they would have conquered the world in days.

[bcbm]

its interesting that you focus on violence while talking about shutting down summit meetings. the only meeting in recent years that has been shut down was shut down by thousands of people blocking the streets and refusing to move, while heavy rioting at later summits caused almost no disruption. i think the scale of violence and what it accomplishes in terms of disruption, etc is less important than what is learned by moving in a mass in the street and having each others' backs. of course, leaving a city with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage sends a message too.

and no, change is won through the working class acting in its self interest and destroying capitalism, not through militants driving tanks through lines of police officers.

[ellipsis]

Allowing them to be better armed and trained is the greatest reason why the western left has not succeeded, and will not for the foreseeable future.
It is not really a matter of allowance. The left will and can never match it's opponents in resources, armaments and training in a pre-revolutionary society due to a multi-trillion dollar budget gap.


So wait, English leftists get their hands on military grade hardware which cannot be stopped with anything short of a helicopter airstrike and their best usage of it is theater?
I love how you mentioned this several times when you didn't even know what really happened. Classic. And you could most definitely stop one using means available to civilians.

In general, I think you need to look beyond tactics to strategy and realize that sucess in the former does not always carry over into the latter.

BTW I don't know if I believe your coal miner union champion story. Coal workers unions let such an out spoken "kill a cop" "revolutionary" represent them in major negotiations? Unless you are completely different person in real life, I find this to be unlikely.

[the last donut of the night]

Uncle Ho, I admire the work you do, but what else do you propose as of now?

Do you want small guerrillas infiltrating strikes, shooting at cops in vain delusions that somehow the working class will wake up from its slumber?

Or do you want small groups of middle-class revolutionaries blowing up buildings in the name of the working class, while the same class ignores and rejects those revolutionaries?

Let me tell you a story. Back in my Brazil, we had the most reactionary elements of the bourgeoisie throw a coup (with American help, of course) in 1964. Of course, life for workers deteriorated as a result.

Some leftists, primarly urban middle-class college students, decided that it was time for violence. It seems they never really thought what the working class thought before getting their guns, because they were defeated entirely by the end of the decade, practically.

After about 5 years of their activities, the working class did not care or really know about them, or bought into the mainstream media story.

This is a lesson, that at certain times, violence just isn't viable.



P.S: Excuse me, but it's 5 in the morning, so I apologize for some weaknesses coming from my post.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

It's useless bourgeoisie punks blowing off steam for socialist street cred before they download their new Iphone apps.
Right, because having a gadget definitely makes you a member of the ruling class and means you don't need to sell your labour power. Why, I bet you're probably so proletarian you've never even seen a computer.


If you refuse to stand and fight, you are worse than the bourgeoisie.
Yep, not getting into an unwinnable fight with a body of well-trained heavily-armed thugs definitely makes you worse than the ruling class.


Small wonder then, that the vampires have sucked all but the last few drops from us.
Not the vampires!

Well, after helping activists on the reservation rebuild homes, providing school supplies for children and assisting the people in filling out (and making sure they receive) benefits, we staged another action in which we shut down Whiteclay, NE on Thanksgiving, dressed as stereotypical white men, throwing the liquor into the proverbial harbor.

There were a few cops, but we chased them off.

On Monday, I'm going to go to a meeting with the heads of coal mines in Wyoming, who have resisted unionization despite the pleas of their workers. We only got here after the keys to the main gates were mysteriously lost during the strike, and the mining equipment somehow all stopped working. Odd coincidence, isn't it? Perhaps the black cats lurking about were responsible for it.

We've also threatened to have the IBEW plant workers refuse to burn non-union coal, which would throw a large tract of the nation into brownouts.

It should be a busy week. Between my work and my union obligations, I won't have much time for anything but sleeping.
Cool. This week I organised all the workplaces in my city into autonomous workplace resistance groups outside and against the unions, then I kicked 500 cops in the face and flew the red and black flag from the town hall and punched a capitalist so hard he exploded and then the local workers' council baked me a special cake in honour of my achievements. Because anonymous people talking on internet forums about how good they are at activism are definitely always honest and plausible.


Punks in silly masks with sandwich board and the hottest new Iphone apps, now THAT is how change is won. If only Mao, Lenin and Ho had dumpsters and the app store, they would have conquered the world in days.
What is your obsession with Iphones?

For the record, I actually don't think that summit mobilisations are that useful and that consistent organising in workplaces and communities ultimately poses a much greater threat to capital than a few symbolic spectacular confrontations with no real relevance to most people's everyday lives ever could. I just don't think "THE BLACK BLOC ARE NOT TUFF AND MANLY LIKE ME COS IF THEY WERE AS HARD AS ME THEY WOULD DEFINITELY WIN ALL FIGHTS WITH THE STATE ALL THE TIME AND THEY HAVE IPHONES AND THEY ARE LIFESTYLISTS AND DID I MENTION IPHONES? I HATE PUNX!" is a useful communist critique.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Well, i looked up the whole tank incident. it never said what kind. i cant imagine a Leo 2 or a Challenger II getting jacked, but if they happened to then i can see they misused it. even without killing anyone they could have pushed lines back.

EDIT: nevermind. turns out it was a Saracen MK1... nothing too scary.

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/tanks/saracen1.jpg

[Sasha]

two storys get confused here, during the RNC some idiot cop left his SWAT armored personel carrier (to take a leak of get coffee or something) unatended and some actvists stumbled on it and took it for an spur of the moment spontanius joyride before realising that to the cops this might not seem as funny as it did to them. When reality kicked in they (very smartly) gave the thing back. what did you expect? that they would run over some cops to then glorious die in a hail of bullets?

the other storry is from an briliant "situationist" stunt pulled of at (the run up to) an english reclaim the streets party.
the organisation/some DJ collective anounced they bought an APC and would use it at the next RTS to transport the soundsystem.
when nobody believed them they gave an tabloid newspaper an tour and low an behold the whole country was in an uproar.
when the day of the RTS came and the APC emerged from the garage it was offcourse emeditly blocked by the cops with bulldozers and the people arrested.
the joke of the whole stunt was that they in fact bought TWO of the damn things and the second one entered the city from the other side of town unhindered and reached the party. :laugh:

both great actions but nobody ever expected them to bring DA REVOLUTIONZ!!!! any closer.

i wasnt going to reply to uncle HO anymore but cant resist noticing that all his "examples" refer to the US situation. maybe you should pull your head out of your arse and realise that there is more in the world than the US.
your blackblockers suck as much compared to their european counterparts as your unions do.

not saying they archieved much but look up the prague and genova riots and dare to call them bourgois punx running away for a line of cops.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

So you can't imagine how protesters trying to stop these meetings actually stopping them would be helpful?

What were they doing? Apart from protesting against this meeting what do you expect them to do?

[ellipsis]

Also the space highjackers situationalists painted their APC blue with white checkers and the word "riot" and parked it in front of a bank, claiming they were going to assist the police in safeguarding the bank. they were arrested for impersonating police.

Uncle HO, if you want to see what happens when unarmed/armed with molotovs protesters take on the cops, look into APPO and what happened in 2006.

[Uncle Ho]

two storys get confused here, during the RNC some idiot cop left his SWAT armored personel carrier (to take a leak of get coffee or something) unatended and some actvists stumbled on it and took it for an spur of the moment spontanius joyride before realising that to the cops this might not seem as funny as it did to them. When reality kicked in they (very smartly) gave the thing back. what did you expect? that they would run over some cops to then glorious die in a hail of bullets?

No, I wouldn't expect them to die in a hail of gunfire, being as they had a vehicle which is specifically designed to deflect gunfire.

If the thing had guns inside, they would have had everything they needed (except courage, of course) to do something significant. Even if it didn't, putting an APC through the wall of a summit building is going to stop it a lot quicker than wearing a silly mask and waving a sign.


the other storry is from an briliant "situationist" stunt pulled of at (the run up to) an english reclaim the streets party.
the organisation/some DJ collective anounced they bought an APC and would use it at the next RTS to transport the soundsystem.
when nobody believed them they gave an tabloid newspaper an tour and low an behold the whole country was in an uproar.
when the day of the RTS came and the APC emerged from the garage it was offcourse emeditly blocked by the cops with bulldozers and the people arrested.
the joke of the whole stunt was that they in fact bought TWO of the damn things and the second one entered the city from the other side of town unhindered and reached the party. :laugh:Yes, having a chance to succeed and squandering it so you can throw a party for your bourgeoisie buddies is truly brilliant. I hear that Ho Chi Minh would have spontaneous raves for the Viet Cong on ambush.


both great actions but nobody ever expected them to bring DA REVOLUTIONZ!!!! any closer.No, both worthless halfmeasures perpetrated by spineless bourgeoisie punks who talk the talk, but cannot walk the walk. The AIM would have done anything for a tank during wounded knee, and these little brats take them and use them to throw parties.


i wasnt going to reply to uncle HO anymore but cant resist noticing that all his "examples" refer to the US situation. maybe you should pull your head out of your arse and realise that there is more in the world than the US.
your blackblockers suck as much compared to their european counterparts as your unions do.Yeah, European black blocs are so good they cannot accomplish anything except the destruction of property.

I hear they throw mean dance parties, though!


not saying they archieved much but look up the prague and genova riots and dare to call them bourgois punx running away for a line of cops.Ok, I did that.

They are spineless bourgeoisie punks who don't care about the ideals they claim to support, doing it because it's the hip and cool thing to do. The vast majority of them were born wealthy, will live their entire lives wealthy and die wealth.

By the time they are 50, they will be running the same institutions they claim to oppose.

They have accomplished nothing (Unless you consider busting windows and torching strangers cars as something) and never will, and any true revolutionary would disassociate with them, if not have them shot outright.


Also the space highjackers situationalists painted their APC blue with white checkers and the word "riot" and parked it in front of a bank, claiming they were going to assist the police in safeguarding the bank. they were arrested for impersonating police.

If the best thing you can think of when you have a tank is pulling a "clever" stunt, you are not only a craven lifestyle socialist, but incredibly uncreative.


Uncle HO, if you want to see what happens when unarmed/armed with molotovs protesters take on the cops, look into APPO and what happened in 2006.And the reason they're not armed is? (Hint: They don't actually want to change anything)

If you want to see what armed protesters can do, look up any successful revolution. The key thread that links them together is people with weapons, not little punks with masks and signs.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

If you want to see what armed protesters can do, look up any successful revolution. The key thread that links them together is people with weapons, not little punks with masks and signs.
Incorrect. The key thread that links them together is THE ACTIVE PARTICIPATION OF THE GREAT MASS OF THE WORKING CLASS, not how many guns they have. That's why the Red Brigades/Red Army Faction/Weathermen achieved fuck-all, for all their ultra-revolutionary rhetoric, and their guns: Communism can only be made through the conscious activity of the working class, not by a few mega-hard manly men with guns being manly. By the way, talking of how brilliant you are at everything and how you're definitely better at revolution than the entire European and American anarchist movement and you probably shoot cops for breakfast, I'm curious about this:

We staged another action in which we shut down Whiteclay, NE on Thanksgiving, dressed as stereotypical white men, throwing the liquor into the proverbial harbor.

There were a few cops, but we chased them off.

Beyond the utter pointlessness of an action that seems to have served no purpose other than to waste some perfectly good liquor, what does "There were a few cops, but we chased them off" actually mean? Does it mean that they tried to stop you, but you physically confronted them and they ran away, despite (or perhaps as well as) calling for back-up? Or does it mean "There were a few cops, but they looked at us, realised we weren't actually doing anything illegal, and went away again"? Because there's nothing wrong with doing legal things, I do legal things all the time, but trying to present it as "chasing cops off" is pretty dishonest.

[bcbm]

If you want to see what armed protesters can do, look up any successful revolution. The key thread that links them together is people with weapons, not little punks with masks and signs.


Weapons are a constant in revolutionary situations, but their use is infrequent and rarely decisive at key turning points: August 10th 1792, March 18th 1871, October 1917. When power is in the gutter, it’s enough to walk over it.

the key is people, not weapons. without the means to effectively seize power, weapons are meaningless.

[Uncle Ho]

Incorrect. The key thread that links them together is THE ACTIVE PARTICIPATION OF THE GREAT MASS OF THE WORKING CLASS, not how many guns they have. That's why the Red Brigades/Red Army Faction/Weathermen achieved fuck-all, for all their ultra-revolutionary rhetoric, and their guns: Communism can only be made through the conscious activity of the working class, not by a few mega-hard manly men with guns being manly. By the way, talking of how brilliant you are at everything and how you're definitely better at revolution than the entire European and American anarchist movement and you probably shoot cops for breakfast, I'm curious about this:

Even the most united working class cannot accomplish anything with sandwich board and dumpsters.

You arm, or you are oppressed by those who are. It's that simple.


Beyond the utter pointlessness of an action that seems to have served no purpose other than to waste some perfectly good liquor, what does "There were a few cops, but we chased them off" actually mean? Does it mean that they tried to stop you, but you physically confronted them and they ran away, despite (or perhaps as well as) calling for back-up? Or does it mean "There were a few cops, but they looked at us, realised we weren't actually doing anything illegal, and went away again"? Because there's nothing wrong with doing legal things, I do legal things all the time, but trying to present it as "chasing cops off" is pretty dishonest.

You don't grasp this unique situation.

Whiteclay, NE, is a town on the border of the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. Pine Ridge, by a majority vote, is dry. Alcohol cannot be sold there. Whiteclay is a town of 2 pawn shops, 4 liqour stores and a post office. It has a population of 14 people, yet it does over 3 million in business each year, selling liquor to the Natives. Keep in mind that alcohol is the #1 killer of Native Americans, and the rate of it's abuse on the reservation is over 60%.

Native activist groups have repeatedly petitioned the state and federal governments to close these stores down. They have not listened. Despite numerous promises, Whiteclay remains operational. There is too much money to be made poisoning the few Natives left, and there are not enough Natives to really exert pressure on them. Even if they were, they are hopelessly disenfranchised. The time for Natives to expect their oppressors to fix their problems is over.

So, as of late, activists have been taking things into their own hands. It started with blockades of Whiteclay, and as those waned in effectiveness, other actions have replaced them.

The end goal remains the same. Shut down Whiteclay.

Here are some videos which should assist in your comprehension of the situation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZSPEynvdh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCC0bTvOZKc&feature=related

Also, you vastly overestimate the Reservation Police. Many of them support us, and those who don't have no backup to call.

[bcbm]

Even the most united working class cannot accomplish anything with sandwich board and dumpsters.

You arm, or you are oppressed by those who are. It's that simple.

i don't think anyone is against weapons. the point is that going to a summit demo with guns would be the height of stupidity and would only serve to get militants killed or jailed while accomplishing nothing or, really, less than nothing because of the backlash that would come from such an action.

[ellipsis]

You arm, or you are oppressed by those who are.

Is that why the US citizenry who are armed to the teeth have failed to foment a successful overthrow of the government? You talk about what AIM would have down with a tank, but they still had arms and were unable to prevail against federal agents.

If what you are doing activism wise is true more power to you. But you go from "let's gun cops down with their own APC" to "lets negotiate with coal bosses". I don't understand the disparity between your rhetoric and your alleged reality.

Also a grammar lesson, bourgeois is an adjective; bourgeoisie is a noun.

So they are bourgeois punks who are members of the bourgeoisie, allegedly.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Even the most united working class cannot accomplish anything with sandwich board and dumpsters.

You arm, or you are oppressed by those who are. It's that simple.

Actually, I think the most united working class could accomplish quite a lot simply by withdrawing their labour (sandwich boards and dumpsters being an optional extra in that situation, I imagine). And it's not that simple: You remain unarmed, and oppressed by those who are armed, or you arm, in which case you can stop them oppressing you if you're in a strong enough position to do so, or you arm but are still in a weak and marginalised position, in which case you get shot and accomplish nothing (except for allowing the ruling class to strengthen the state by reference to the need to defend against the terrorist threat). Which is what would happen if revolutionaries started arming themselves today. Ever hear of the Black Panthers?


Also a grammar lesson, bourgeois is an adjective; bourgeoisie is a noun.
Grammar is definitely bourgeois, comrade! ;)

[Uncle Ho]

Is that why the US citizenry who are armed to the teeth have failed to foment a successful overthrow of the government? You talk about what AIM would have down with a tank, but they still had arms and were unable to prevail against federal agents.

The US citizenry does not overthrow the government because they do not want to. They may suffer from black president outrage, but at the end of the day, they are quite happy with our capitalist society.

Also, the AIM lost mostly because they were outnumbered. The movement was actually making good headway until the CIA-backed death squads arrived. Seizing Wounded Knee was as much a publicity stunt as a military action, and it worked. The AIM and their platform was broadcast to the whole world. Then the GOONs arrived, with their Federal guns and training.

They did not just target armed insurgents, mind you. Any activist of any stripe was in their crosshairs, as were innocent people. The AIM had quite a lot of support in the country, but these people seemed to think that waving signs would chase away the thugs.


If what you are doing activism wise is true more power to you. But you go from "let's gun cops down with their own APC" to "lets negotiate with coal bosses". I don't understand the disparity between your rhetoric and your alleged reality.Who said you'd gun them down? Cops are smart enough to move out of the way of a tank. All you have to do is keep going right through the summit building and you've accomplished your goal with no bloodshed.

But again, people at these demonstrations don't really WANT to change anything, they just say they do.

As for my activities in the union, I do what I can. I struggle with the AFL-CIO as much as I do the bosses. The union old guard seems perfectly content to sit on their haunches as everything their forefathers fought for is taken away, inch by inch.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Also, the AIM lost mostly because they were outnumbered. The movement was actually making good headway until the CIA-backed death squads arrived. Seizing Wounded Knee was as much a publicity stunt as a military action, and it worked. The AIM and their platform was broadcast to the whole world. Then the GOONs arrived, with their Federal guns and training.

As I said:

And it's not that simple: You remain unarmed, and oppressed by those who are armed, or you arm, in which case you can stop them oppressing you if you're in a strong enough position to do so, or you arm but are still in a weak and marginalised position, in which case you get shot and accomplish nothing (except for allowing the ruling class to strengthen the state by reference to the need to defend against the terrorist threat). Which is what would happen if revolutionaries started arming themselves today. Ever hear of the Black Panthers?
There is only any point in provoking an armed struggle if you're in a position to win it. Otherwise, you end up massacred. If you don't actually engage in armed struggle, you just talk about it on the internet a lot, you probably just end up arrested rather than shot, but it's still not terribly productive.

[Uncle Ho]

Well, the AIM thought they were in a strong enough position. They just under-estimated the level of brutality that would be used against them. COINTELPRO didn't send death squads after anyone else, because they didn't see any other groups as a threat on the same level as the AIM, which could easily siezed the reservations and had a little Zapatista situation going.

[Sasha]

Well, the AIM thought they were in a strong enough position. They just under-estimated the level of brutality that would be used against them. COINTELPRO didn't send death squads after anyone else, because they didn't see any other groups as a threat on the same level as the AIM, which could easily siezed the reservations and had a little Zapatista situation going.

dont blow your own trumpet that hard...


According to FBI records, 85% of COINTELPRO resources were expended on infiltrating, disrupting, marginalizing, and/or subverting groups suspected of being subversive,[4] such as communist and socialist organizations; the women's rights movement; militant black nationalist groups, and the non-violent civil rights movement, including individuals such as Martin Luther King, Jr. and others associated with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the Congress of Racial Equality, the American Indian Movement, and other civil rights groups; a broad range of organizations labeled "New Left", including Students for a Democratic Society, the National Lawyers Guild, the Weathermen, almost all groups protesting the Vietnam War, and even individual student demonstrators with no group affiliation; and nationalist groups such as those "seeking independence for Puerto Rico."

i think the black and puertorican radical groups where at least as high on the priority list as AIM was.

[FSL]

Why some people that are against armed struggle in your average western society (rightly so in my opinion) are, in principle, in favour of 'violent' direct action (and not just for example when a protest is interrupted by police or something equivalent happens)?

I mean if people aren't currently in position to overthrow capitalism with guns, they'd be much less able to do so with sticks and "clubs", no? Do you see any qualitative differences in the results of these two ways of action?

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Well, the AIM thought they were in a strong enough position. They just under-estimated the level of brutality that would be used against them. COINTELPRO didn't send death squads after anyone else, because they didn't see any other groups as a threat on the same level as the AIM, which could easily siezed the reservations and had a little Zapatista situation going.


dont blow your own trumpet that hard...
i think the black and puertorican radical groups where at least as high on the priority list as AIM was.
Yes, I'm sure Fred Hampton must be very pleased to learn that the cops who shot him to death in his bed weren't a death squad.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Heres the thing. Firearms are a necessity BUT they should be reserved for a last resort...

you cant just go around shooting people with a small group thinking you'll bring revolution. that's insane. if there's no public support don't do it.

[bcbm]

Why some people that are against armed struggle in your average western society (rightly so in my opinion) are, in principle, in favour of 'violent' direct action (and not just for example when a protest is interrupted by police or something equivalent happens)?

I mean if people aren't currently in position to overthrow capitalism with guns, they'd be much less able to do so with sticks and "clubs", no? Do you see any qualitative differences in the results of these two ways of action?

presumably because they're viewed as completely different tactics and strategies? nobody smashing a bank window thinks that smashing a bank window is seriously contributing to the downfall of capitalism, while your typical urban guerrilla thinks shooting a cop is.

[FSL]

presumably because they're viewed as completely different tactics and strategies? nobody smashing a bank window thinks that smashing a bank window is seriously contributing to the downfall of capitalism, while your typical urban guerrilla thinks shooting a cop is.


So it is just having fun then? Or what?

[Искра]

I also don't understand this kind of "riots". This looks to as some kind of trend.

[gorillafuck]

If you refuse to stand and fight, you are worse than the bourgeoisie.

Every time a self-proclaimed anarchist runs from colored smoke, every time a journalist is clubbed and arrested, every time we stand idly by and let them win, the ruling class grows stronger.

You'd be better served doing nothing at all. It was time to nut up or shut up 80 years ago, and we've consistently chosen neither.

Small wonder then, that the vampires have sucked all but the last few drops from us.
Quit the oh-so-revolutionary posturing. I can see why you'd dislike sign waving (I personally don't really like it too much either, but I can recognize that it's better than doing absolutely nothing), but you need to cram the VIOLENCE OR NOTHING, YEAH ONWARD REVOLUTION mentality, it's shit.

[FSL]

I also don't understand this kind of "riots". This looks to as some kind of trend.


:thumbup1:

Impressed. We need more anarchists like that.

[bcbm]

So it is just having fun then? Or what?

i think people go into it for a variety of reasons. some for fun, others for a chance to enact some minor damage against the institutions collectively ruining our lives, some for the attention it brings to the protest and the movement, others because it strengthens relationships and exposes cowards. there are probably other reasons as well.

[Uncle Ho]

i think people go into it for a variety of reasons. some for fun, others for a chance to enact some minor damage against the institutions collectively ruining our lives, some for the attention it brings to the protest and the movement, others because it strengthens relationships and exposes cowards. there are probably other reasons as well.

Yes, like impressing that cute "leftist" girl who sits next to you in your philosophy class, taking pictures of you flipping off cops for your blog, rebelling against your parents before you eventually become them and hiding the fact that you're a spoiled little bourgeois brat, born into wealth unimaginable to the vastest majority of all living human beings, and you will live every day of your life in this bubble as they starve and bleed for the little baubles you have used to fill the gaps in your humanity.

Actually advancing any sort of movement is an afterthought in these sorts of actions. Even if they did want to do it, their message is so conflicted they'd end up fighting over freeing Mumia or freeing Tibet.

You are right on one point, though. These actions do expose cowards. You simply need to look at everyone who attends them and you will have a nice list.


dont blow your own trumpet that hard...



i think the black and puertorican radical groups where at least as high on the priority list as AIM was.

They weren't training men in Honduras and giving them military grade weapons with carte blanche to use them indiscriminately on the Panthers and Puerto Ricans.

They did it to Natives because they knew they could get away with it. They knew no one would care, and they were right.

[Sasha]

blablablabla

[bcbm]

Yes, like impressing that cute "leftist" girl who sits next to you in your philosophy classi'm not in school.


taking pictures of you flipping off cops for your blogi don't have a blog and i would never bring a camera to a protest.


rebelling against your parents before you eventually become themi have a good relationship with my parents, actually.


and hiding the fact that you're a spoiled little bourgeois bratneither of my parents own any means of production. in fact, they're struggling with money quite a bit right now because my mom's job doesn't pay that well and my dad is more or less unemployed.


born into wealth unimaginable to the vastest majority of all living human beings, and you will live every day of your life in this bubble as they starve and bleed for the little baubles you have used to fill the gaps in your humanity.i have about $40 to my name right now. while this is more than much of the world will make in four months of work, i don't think it is "unimaginable wealth," and i'm not sure how having less money than that would some how give me better credentials as a communist.

my situation isn't radically different from most people i know in the movement. the majority are working class, non-students.


Actually advancing any sort of movement is an afterthought in these sorts of actions.this is why there are typically months of meetings to work out strategy beforehand, with building the movement often being the focus? this is why the movement has grown since the rnc? this is why a lot of inter-movement connections were strengthened at the g20 in an aim to expand further?


Even if they did want to do it, their message is so conflicted they'd end up fighting over freeing Mumia or freeing Tibet.
i don't think most anarchists are very concerned with tibet, and its been awhile since i heard much mumia organizing. most people are focusing on work within their communities right now.


whew, glad we got all of those personal attacks and strawmen out of the way. now do you think we could discuss ideas, tactics and strategy like adults?

[Uncle Ho]

i'm not in school.

Well, that's good. Fee based educational systems are one of the chief tools used to oppress the proletariat. Best keep this from your comrades at the next protest, it might upset them.


i don't have a blog and i would never bring a camera to a protest.You won't, but thousands of others will. Hard to impress your friends with tales of fleeing from harmless smoke without one, after all.


neither of my parents own any means of production. in fact, they're struggling with money quite a bit right now because my mom's job doesn't pay that well and my dad is more or less unemployed.And still they are better off than the vast majority of all human beings living on this earth.


i have about $40 to my name right now. while this is more than much of the world will make in four months of work, i don't think it is "unimaginable wealth," and i'm not sure how having less money than that would some how give me better credentials as a communist.It's not about the money you have, it's about how you earned it.


my situation isn't radically different from most people i know in the movement. the majority are working class, non-students.What movement is this? Are they ghosts? Everyone I've seen at these type of protests is bourgeoisie to the core.

If you truly were who you said you were, you'd be running these people off like they were cops. Not that you run off cops, as that takes some spine and conviction.


this is why there are typically months of meetings to work out strategy beforehand, with building the movement often being the focus? this is why the movement has grown since the rnc? this is why a lot of inter-movement connections were strengthened at the g20 in an aim to expand further?Wait, you PLAN running from the police and accomplishing nothing?

Are you some sort of Federal plant designed to keep the working class down, or do you little kids just want to feel important that badly?


i don't think most anarchists are very concerned with tibet, and its been awhile since i heard much mumia organizing. most people are focusing on work within their communities right now.I don't think Anarchists are concerned with much but their little political fantasy and pretending to be tough. Learning that you're an Anarchist explains a lot, really. Any real revolutionaries wouldn't touch your ilk with a 10,000 foot pole.


whew, glad we got all of those personal attacks and strawmen out of the way. now do you think we could discuss ideas, tactics and strategy like adults?What tactics do you want to discuss? The strengths of running from cops in a serpentine as opposed to a straight line?

[bcbm]

so much for being done with strawmen and personal attacks.


And still they are better off than the vast majority of all human beings living on this earth.yes, and? class is primarily about relationship to the means of production, not individual wealth.


It's not about the money you have, it's about how you earned it.its odd you would say this after repeatedly making a point about how much better off people in the west are.


Everyone I've seen at these type of protests is bourgeoisie to the corehow do you judge one's relationship to the means of production by looking at them?


Wait, you PLAN running from the police and accomplishing nothing?no, primarily because that isn't what happens at protests. its preferable to evade them as much as possible and accomplish other goals. but i'll tell you what, next time there is a large summit demo planned why don't you come and put your money where your mouth is? you seem to know what needs to be done and how to do it, so please, why don't you come show how to deal with the cops.


Are you some sort of Federal plant designed to keep the working class downbad jacketing now are we?


I don't think Anarchists are concerned with much but fantasy and pretending to be tough. Learning that you're an Anarchist explains a lot, really. Any real revolutionaries wouldn't touch your ilk with a 10,000 foot pole.i'm a communist, but if we're talking about rioting at demos this is primarily the work of anarchists, at least in the us. and no, anarchists are concerned with things like organizing within their communities and workplaces to better the lot of the working class. its also odd to insult others as "claiming to be tough" when all you've done in this thread, and others, is spout violent, posturing rhetoric.


What tactics do you want to discuss?we could start with you explaining what your strategy is for demonstrations and what its value is.

[Uncle Ho]

yes, and? class is primarily about relationship to the means of production, not individual wealth.

I'm sure that's comforting to the Congolese child who had his hands cut off so you could have a cell phone.


its odd you would say this after repeatedly making a point about how much better off people in the west are.That's because people in the West got their wealth by exploiting everyone else.


how do you judge one's relationship to the means of production by looking at them?Well, when they're twittering the events as they happen and are petrified to do anything significant at all out of fear of losing their cushy lifestyle, it's a pretty big giveaway.


no, primarily because that isn't what happens at protests. its preferable to evade them as much as possible and accomplish other goals. but i'll tell you what, next time there is a large summit demo planned why don't you come and put your money where your mouth is? you seem to know what needs to be done and how to do it, so please, why don't you come show how to deal with the cops.Excuse me, you don't run from the police, you jog from them, after flipping them off and halfheartedly rolling a dumpster at their lines.

What are these other goals, anyway? Failing in the most dramatic way possible? Making sure the bloggers get good shots of you looking hard?

If I would have to show you how to deal with the cops, you have no business even pretending to be an activist. It's incredibly simple, really, you just need conviction.

Getting that, it seems, is the hard part.


bad jacketing now are we?Well, if you plan to fail as miserably and pathetically as possible, I don't know what other conclusions could be drawn.


i'm a communist, but if we're talking about rioting at demos this is primarily the work of anarchists, at least in the us. and no, anarchists are concerned with things like organizing within their communities and workplaces to better the lot of the working class. its also odd to insult others as "claiming to be tough" when all you've done in this thread, and others, is spout violent, posturing rhetoric.Well, at least the anarchists have the courage to do SOMETHING. Perhaps if you could channel their aggressiveness on the correct targets, you wouldn't be asking me how to deal with police.

Of course, this is assuming they would fight anything that has the capability to resist, which requires that they actually care about "the movement"


we could start with you explaining what your strategy is for demonstrations and what its value is.Well, you could start by running off about 95% of the useless chaff you have mulling about now. You get a group of people with a CLEAR goal, and you do not deviate from it. These people need to have conviction, so they do not flee from harmless colored smoke. They also need to not fear imprisonment and serious injury or even death. Weapons would also be very helpful.

As for what you'd do at this point, it depends on that goal. However, the correct answer is never "wave a sign, then run away"

Summits can easily be stopped simply by getting there first, or by using your APC for something other than a street party.

[bcbm]

I'm sure that's comforting to the Congolese child who had his hands cut off so you could have a cell phone.you realize you're using a computer, right?


That's because people in the West got their wealth by exploiting everyone else. last i checked, most working people in the west have no say over how the global economy is structured.


Well, when they're twittering the events as they happen and are petrified to do anything significant at all out of fear of losing their cushy lifestyle, it's a pretty big giveaway.the only thing it gives away is that most people, including most working people, are not all that radical yet. people don't suddenly wake up ready and knowledgeable about fighting cops. and why are we talking so much about fighting cops anyway? as i said earlier, its a very small and relatively insignificant part of any struggle we're engaging in right now. let's build a class militancy first.



What are these other goals, anyway?i already gave a number of possible other goals to be enacted through evading police and destroying corporate/police property.


Well, at least the anarchists have the courage to do SOMETHING. Perhaps if you could channel their aggressiveness on the correct targets, you wouldn't be asking me how to deal with police.actually most of us know how to deal with the police. there just isn't much of a point in trying to physical force your way through several hundred police officers in an attempt to shut down a summit (that you likely wouldn't reach), because that really wouldn't be accomplishing anything. its pure spectacle. better off doing things in the streets that accomplish things for the people involved, if no one else and focusing primarily on building the power of our class in our communities.


Of course, this is assuming they would fight anything that has the capability to resist, which requires that they actually care about "the movement"four police officers were just shot in washington. what has that changed about class relations in this country?


Well, you could start by running off about 95% of the useless chaff you have mulling about now.been working on it.


They also need to not fear imprisonment and serious injury or even death.to stop a summit meeting? that isn't very strategic. i have a lot of friends facing charges or in jail or on probation right now. i don't see a lot of strategic value in wasting countless days/months/years of people's lives and tons of monetary and other resources over actions that, all things considered, achieved very little.


Summits can easily be stopped simply by getting there firstyes. the last time this happened, very few people physically resisted the police and the summit was still shut down, though more because they were caught off guard. the problem now is that catching them off guard in the lead up to a summit is practically impossible.

[IllicitPopsicle]

I'm sure that's comforting to the Congolese child who had his hands cut off so you could have a cell phone.

Bahahaha... sigh

That's because people in the West got their wealth by exploiting everyone else.

You're only talking about a few percentage points of a massive population. You do realize this, right?

Well, when they're twittering the events as they happen and are petrified to do anything significant at all out of fear of losing their cushy lifestyle, it's a pretty big giveaway.

Twitter is free, it can be useful in some situations, and, let's be honest, you have a cell phone too.

If I would have to show you how to deal with the cops, you have no business even pretending to be an activist. It's incredibly simple, really, you just need conviction.

Sounds like Horatio Alger bullcrap to me.

Well, at least the anarchists have the courage to do SOMETHING. Perhaps if you could channel their aggressiveness on the correct targets, you wouldn't be asking me how to deal with police.

Because retarded violence is sooooo revolutionary ... amirite

Of course, this is assuming they would fight anything that has the capability to resist, which requires that they actually care about "the movement"

So you're accusing anarchists of hedonism now?

Well, you could start by running off about 95% of the useless chaff you have mulling about now. You get a group of people with a CLEAR goal, and you do not deviate from it. These people need to have conviction, so they do not flee from harmless colored smoke. They also need to not fear imprisonment and serious injury or even death. Weapons would also be very helpful.

Hate to break it to you, but not everybody is as dedicated to the "cause" as you are. And not every activist who hits the streets at summits is an anarchist/socialist/communist/other revolutionary. Nor should they have to be to conduct a successful protest.

s

[IllicitPopsicle]

you realize you're using a computer, right?

last i checked, most working people in the west have no say over how the global economy is structured.

Right, the WTO is not a worker's council. Neither are the IMF or World Bank.

the only thing it gives away is that most people, including most working people, are not all that radical yet. people don't suddenly wake up ready and knowledgeable about fighting cops. and why are we talking so much about fighting cops anyway? as i said earlier, its a very small and relatively insignificant part of any struggle we're engaging in right now. let's build a class militancy first.

:thumbup1:



s

[Uncle Ho]

you realize you're using a computer, right?

Yes, but I understand that everything I have is due to exploitation. The very land I live on was stolen after my forefathers set out on a campaign of genocide against the Native Americans. These are wounds that will not be healed by waving a sign.


last i checked, most working people in the west have no say over how the global economy is structured.

They may not, but their rifles have all the say in the world.


the only thing it gives away is that most people, including most working people, are not all that radical yet. people don't suddenly wake up ready and knowledgeable about fighting cops. and why are we talking so much about fighting cops anyway? as i said earlier, its a very small and relatively insignificant part of any struggle we're engaging in right now. let's build a class militancy first.

The police are nothing but an obstacle. If you can't go around, you must remove them from the path, by any means necessary.


i already gave a number of possible other goals to be enacted through evading police and destroying corporate/police property.

You mean when you dropped several synonyms for meeting friends and none which would result in any societal change whatsoever?


actually most of us know how to deal with the police. there just isn't much of a point in trying to physical force your way through several hundred police officers in an attempt to shut down a summit (that you likely wouldn't reach), because that really wouldn't be accomplishing anything. its pure spectacle. better off doing things in the streets that accomplish things for the people involved, if no one else and focusing primarily on building the power of our class in our communities.

Ahh yes, no point in fighting a force we outnumber 1000:1 and could easily overwhelm with our bare hands, let alone any force of arms whatsoever! Better just mull about the streets blogging the revolution and making sure we get lots of screen time so all the socialist honies can know we're hard!

Of course, if we had any conviction at all, we could easily just outwit the cops, but that would require caring about things that aren't Apple branded, and that's hard!


four police officers were just shot in washington. what has that changed about class relations in this country?

Shooting cops for no reason is not the solution. Besides, cops are just the tail of the snake, you must target the head if you want to kill it.


been working on it.

Well, that's a good step forward, anyway.


to stop a summit meeting? that isn't very strategic. i have a lot of friends facing charges or in jail or on probation right now. i don't see a lot of strategic value in wasting countless days/months/years of people's lives and tons of monetary and other resources over actions that, all things considered, achieved very little.

Do you honestly think that any of the rulers are scared or intimidated by your current actions? Do you think they even care what you think or say at all?

The whole point is to send a message that you will not tolerate these activities, and that you are prepared to stop them by any means necessary. You must put fear in their hearts so you can more easily tear them out when the time comes.


yes. the last time this happened, very few people physically resisted the police and the summit was still shut down, though more because they were caught off guard. the problem now is that catching them off guard in the lead up to a summit is practically impossible.

If you think this, you will never win. It's always possible, if you have the courage to do it.

Have you ever tried getting there first with your dance party APCs? You'd be surprised how well this would work if they were filled with something a little louder than DJ equipment.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Yes, but I understand that everything I have is due to exploitation. The very land I live on was stolen after my forefathers set out on a campaign of genocide against the Native Americans. These are wounds that will not be healed by waving a sign.

Wait... you're not native?

They may not, but their rifles have all the say in the world.

OK, so you're totally bypassing education. An armed and ignorant working class is detrimental to any sort of "revolution" you're trying to push, because they can be easily swayed in their opinions and worldview.

The police are nothing but an obstacle. If you can't go around, you must remove them from the path, by any means necessary.

They're obstacles with truncheons, body armor (including bulletproof vests) and lotsa new "less-than-lethal" weapons that seriously fuck your shit up. Rumors are abounding of a new microwave crowd disperser. I don't know about you but while I wouldn't mind getting arrested or even shot at, getting cooked alive is not my idea of a good revolution.

Ahh yes, no point in fighting a force we outnumber 1000:1 and could easily overwhelm with our bare hands, let alone any force of arms whatsoever! Better just mull about the streets blogging the revolution and making sure we get lots of screen time so all the socialist honies can know we're hard!

See above.

Of course, if we had any conviction at all, we could easily just outwit the cops, but that would require caring about things that aren't Apple branded, and that's hard!

Wow... fuck you very much, then.

Shooting cops for no reason is not the solution. Besides, cops are just the tail of the snake, you must target the head if you want to kill it.

A point we agree on.

The whole point is to send a message that you will not tolerate these activities, and that you are prepared to stop them by any means necessary. You must put fear in their hearts so you can more easily tear them out when the time comes.

But you just said that the snake's head didn't care what we lil ants thought of them.


s

[Uncle Ho]

I'd appreciate if you didn't work inside the quotes like that so I can respond.

By the way, "bulletproof" vests aren't bulletproof. All police grade body armor can easily be penetrated by a standard hunting rifle. Not only that, but all their equipment, including the vests and assault rifles, is 100% legal for you to own.

Not that I'd advocate this sort of thing, of course, but just for the record.

Also, all their less than lethal devices have very simple countermeasures, and many of them are quite ponderous and cannot be used to defeat superior numbers.

[bcbm]

Yes, but I understand that everything I have is due to exploitation. The very land I live on was stolen after my forefathers set out on a campaign of genocide against the Native Americans. These are wounds that will not be healed by waving a sign.

why do you keep bringing up this waving a sign nonsense? who here thinks that? nobody. and i'm pretty sure everybody is familiar with the history of this continent and the global exploitation that upholds our lifestyles.


They may not, but their rifles have all the say in the world.

not when they're disorganized.


The police are nothing but an obstacle. If you can't go around, you must remove them from the path, by any means necessary.

why? what is the long term strategic value in "removing" some police at a protest?


You mean when you dropped several synonyms for meeting friends and none which would result in any societal change whatsoever?

you want to shut down summits. that's just sending a message. tens of thousands of dollars in damage also sends a message, and requires far less risk, leaving people able to fight another day and pursue other projects besides going to court. you also talk about conviction, well, acting in the streets with hundreds of others is a way of building conviction and knowing who has your back.


Ahh yes, no point in fighting a force we outnumber 1000:1 and could easily overwhelm with our bare hands, let alone any force of arms whatsoever! Better just mull about the streets blogging the revolution and making sure we get lots of screen time so all the socialist honies can know we're hard!

when was the last time you were at a summit protest? the protesters almost never outnumber the police by that ratio and certainly the groups who could even consider actively challenging the police are a minority. when the strategy was to actually try and shutdown the rnc, most groups were vastly outnumbered. this is why its more important to organize around class issues than summit-hopping.


Of course, if we had any conviction at all, we could easily just outwit the cops, but that would require caring about things that aren't Apple branded, and that's hard!

do you even read what is being said, or just wait for another excuse to vomit more "i'm a gruff old bad-ass and you're all stupid punks with technology and signs" nonsense? i've repeatedly said that those groups who are the most militant on demonstrations are outwitting the police by striking where they aren't.


Shooting cops for no reason is not the solution. Besides, cops are just the tail of the snake, you must target the head if you want to kill it.

the point is to render capitalism and the bosses powerless because we are the majority and have the ability to do so. we don't get there by just going for the head.


Do you honestly think that any of the rulers are scared or intimidated by your current actions? Do you think they even care what you think or say at all?

i think what i was saying was pretty clear.


The whole point is to send a message that you will not tolerate these activities, and that you are prepared to stop them by any means necessary. You must put fear in their hearts so you can more easily tear them out when the time comes.

i'm not really interested in scaring them, or sending them messages. i'm more interested in effectively organizing our class into a threat capable of seriously threatening them and making the need to send messages irrelevant.


Have you ever tried getting there first with your dance party APCs? You'd be surprised how well this would work if they were filled with something a little louder than DJ equipment.

and then what? we stop a summit meeting. the world didn't change dramatically when it happened in 1999. its a symbolic gesture.

[Uncle Ho]

why do you keep bringing up this waving a sign nonsense? who here thinks that? nobody. and i'm pretty sure everybody is familiar with the history of this continent and the global exploitation that upholds our lifestyles.

So what then, do you propose to do about it?


not when they're disorganized.

Yes, I'm sure they'll be organized by the blogosphere photos of people smashing windows.


why? what is the long term strategic value in "removing" some police at a protest?

Well, you could finally accomplish a goal and actually change something, for once, but it's pretty apparent you have no interest in doing that.



you want to shut down summits. that's just sending a message. tens of thousands of dollars in damage also sends a message, and requires far less risk, leaving people able to fight another day and pursue other projects besides going to court. you also talk about conviction, well, acting in the streets with hundreds of others is a way of building conviction and knowing who has your back.

Tens of thousands of dollars to people not even related in any way to what you're protesting is not a message.

Now tens of thousands of armed people storming the proverbial Bastile, that is a message, and one that would be easily accomplished if only you had wit and guts.


when was the last time you were at a summit protest? the protesters almost never outnumber the police by that ratio and certainly the groups who could even consider actively challenging the police are a minority. when the strategy was to actually try and shutdown the rnc, most groups were vastly outnumbered. this is why its more important to organize around class issues than summit-hopping.

The RNC had a whopping 1500 policemen.

If even 1/10th of your protest there had any balls at all, you could have rushed them with your bare hands and there wouldn't have been a thing they could do but run. If you had arms, there is no possible way 1500 could have stopped you from shutting that convention down.

Unfortunatley, 0/10ths of them had any balls, so you failed, just as you have failed every time before, and will continue to fail until you learn how to fight.

Just an ounce of courage from a tiny minority and you could have destroyed a huge, expensive right wing apparatus, but you let it slip from your grasp.

Why? I have my suspicions, but I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth.


do you even read what is being said, or just wait for another excuse to vomit more "i'm a gruff old bad-ass and you're all stupid punks with technology and signs" nonsense? i've repeatedly said that those groups who are the most militant on demonstrations are outwitting the police by striking where they aren't.

Striking how? Mildly annoying them with urine and halfheartedly rolling dumpsters at them, which they will proceed to sidestep before they arrest you at will?

You may as well strike Mike Tyson with a set of Hulk fists. At least the resulting beatdown would be funny instead of pathetic.


the point is to render capitalism and the bosses powerless because we are the majority and have the ability to do so. we don't get there by just going for the head.

Your rhetoric is always going to be drowned out by the talking heads the bourgeoisie prop up to keep their power. You will not win a war of words, now or ever.

Once you realize that your numbers give you an advantage only if you are brave enough to fight, you might see some success.


i think what i was saying was pretty clear.

Well, what I heard you saying is you know that your little protests will always be ignored and have yet to accomplish a single thing, but you do them anyway, for reasons I have yet to ascertain.


i'm not really interested in scaring them, or sending them messages. i'm more interested in effectively organizing our class into a threat capable of seriously threatening them and making the need to send messages irrelevant.

So you're interested in losing, then?

Nice to know the next generation of activist has such motivation.


and then what? we stop a summit meeting. the world didn't change dramatically when it happened in 1999. its a symbolic gesture.

What happened in 1999 was a bunch of punks trashing things and then throwing a party. They had ample opportunity to stop the entire WTO, and they let it slip through their fingers because they have been brainwashed into complacence by the bourgeoisie.

Good activists don't fight, after all! Look at Gandhi (Who was only successful due to massive insurgencies and mutinies all over India, which we don't hear about, of course) and Martin Luther King (Who was only mildly successful because the Federal Government was so horrified of the growing black radical movement that they propped him up as "their guy" to discredit this movement, then killed him when he was no use to them)

Really, if you want to fail, peace has a 100% success rating.

[ellipsis]

By the way, "bulletproof" vests aren't bulletproof. All police grade body armor can easily be penetrated by a standard hunting rifle. Not only that, but all their equipment, including the vests and assault rifles, is 100% legal for you to own.

Also, all their less than lethal devices have very simple countermeasures, and many of them are quite ponderous and cannot be used to defeat superior numbers.

Bullshit meter is rising. Ballistic armor is graded for different levels of ballistic resistance. the kevlar vest part is level III which means it can withstand a 9 mm bullet. Cops and military also include what are called ceramic or ballistic plates which can, again depending on the grade will protect against many guns exceeding the power of a 30-30 or any other standard hunting caliber. The legality of body armor and so-called assault rifles varies from area to area. No where can you own select fire(full auto) weapons (without a class III license) or many of the grenade launcher loads that police use.

All of the less than lethal devises have simple counter measures huh? How do you stop an active denial system from vibrating water in your skin? How to you stop a police baton to the dome? Water cannons?

Uncle Ho- While I admire your courage to be a pariah in a community of pariahs, you are a wo/man of contradictions. You claim to want to take it to the next level, but don't seem to take your own advise and negotiate with the bourgeoisie . You come here, a site for revolutionary leftists and pretend you are some sort of revolutionary but you speak of the movement almost like an outsider. You do not seem to have any sound political education, reasoning or grasp of revolutionary politics and have not demonstrated at any point any qualities which would lead me to want to take up arms with you. If you can link to any of your posts which prove me wrong.

[bcbm]

So what then, do you propose to do about it?


effectively organizing our class into a threat capable of seriously threatening them
Yes, I'm sure they'll be organized by the blogosphere photos of people smashing windows.strawman.


Well, you could finally accomplish a goal and actually change something, for once, but it's pretty apparent you have no interest in doing that.what would change?


Tens of thousands of dollars to people not even related in any way to what you're protesting is not a message.are we opposed to capitalism, or summit meetings?


Now tens of thousands of armed people storming the proverbial Bastile, that is a message, and one that would be easily accomplished if only you had wit and guts.if its so easily accomplished, why haven't you done it yet?


The RNC had a whopping 1500 policemen.the number of radical protesters combined was probably less than that and given that they were spread throughout the city trying to block key intersections, the numbers vs. police were even less.


Just an ounce of courage from a tiny minority and you could have destroyed a huge, expensive right wing apparatus, but you let it slip from your grasp.i was in the streets that day and i saw a lot of courage. certainly more courage than some chump on the internet who (presumably) wasn't present and wasn't involved in any of the organizing and has nothing concrete to offer but running their mouth and vague bullshit. you've got all the answers? then put up or shut up. get off the internet, get your easily organized force of 10,000 and storm the bastille.


Striking how? Mildly annoying them with urine and halfheartedly rolling dumpsters at them, which they will proceed to sidestep before they arrest you at will? i'm not going to keep repeating myself.

and nobody throws urine, don't use police lies.


Your rhetoric is always going to be drowned out by the talking heads the bourgeoisie prop up to keep their power. You will not win a war of words, now or ever.strawman.


Once you realize that your numbers give you an advantage only if you are brave enough to fight, you might see some success.our class is the majority, but its in no position to fight. that's why we organize and struggle.


Well, what I heard you saying is you know that your little protests will always be ignored and have yet to accomplish a single thing, but you do them anyway, for reasons I have yet to ascertain.get a hearing aid then, because you very clearly seem to have a problem hearing, or at least understanding, anything being said here.


So you're interested in losing, then?

Nice to know the next generation of activist has such motivation.how is specifically saying i want my class to have enough power to effectively challenge the ruling class, that is, enough power to win and destroy capitalism, saying i'm interested in losing, exactly?


They had ample opportunity to stop the entire WTO, and they let it slip through their fingers because they have been brainwashed into complacence by the bourgeoisie.so they go in and "stop the entire wto" (how?). then what? how does this change class relations?


Really, if you want to fail, peace has a 100% success rating. strawman.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Bullshit meter is rising. Ballistic armor is graded for different levels of ballistic resistance. the kevlar vest part is level III which means it can withstand a 9 mm bullet. Cops and military also include what are called ceramic or ballistic plates which can, again depending on the grade will protect against many guns exceeding the power of a 30-30 or any other standard hunting caliber. The legality of body armor and so-called assault rifles varies from area to area. No where can you own select fire(full auto) weapons (without a class III license) or many of the grenade launcher loads that police use.

All of the less than lethal devises have simple counter measures huh? How do you stop an active denial system from vibrating water in your skin? How to you stop a police baton to the dome? Water cannons?

Uncle Ho- While I admire your courage to be a pariah in a community of pariahs, you are a wo/man of contradictions. You claim to want to take it to the next level, but don't seem to take your own advise and negotiate with the bourgeoisie . You come here, a site for revolutionary leftists and pretend you are some sort of revolutionary but you speak of the movement almost like an outsider. You do not seem to have any sound political education, reasoning or grasp of revolutionary politics and have not demonstrated at any point any qualities which would lead me to want to take up arms with you. If you can link to any of your posts which prove me wrong.

Wow.

[ellipsis]

Uncle Ho- If you were true to your word, you would go burn down whiteclay or whatever town is only liquor stores for indians. But instead you are breaking bottles on the ground.

Your rhetoric<----------------------a very great distance------------------------->your reality

[Uncle Ho]

Bullshit meter is rising. Ballistic armor is graded for different levels of ballistic resistance. the kevlar vest part is level III which means it can withstand a 9 mm bullet. Cops and military also include what are called ceramic or ballistic plates which can, again depending on the grade will protect against many guns exceeding the power of a 30-30 or any other standard hunting caliber. The legality of body armor and so-called assault rifles varies from area to area. No where can you own select fire(full auto_ weapons (without a class III license) or many of the grenade launcher loads that police use.

You're not going to find many non-federal police department that can afford the heavy duty kit, and even if you did, you get a bigger gun, get AP rounds, shoot twice or go for the head.

And actually, you can purchase a full-automatic weapon, you just need to pay a tax stamp on it. Not that you'd really want to, that is.


All
of the less than lethal devises have simple counter measures huh? How do you stop an active denial system from vibrating water in your skin?Well, disregarding the fact that this system has not even been developed to the point of usability yet, you move out of the way, get behind something solid and continue on. I for one, await these devices so one can be reverse engineered and used against the cops.


How to you stop a police baton to the dome? Ever heard of a helmet? Having a nice riot shield helps too, just as long as you've got a bat to go along with it


Water cannons?These are easy. Lots of options. You can move out of the way and all attack the truck at the same time from different sides, you can launch projectiles at the operator, forcing him to withdraw, you can cut the water pressure by opening other hydrants, or if you're really organized, you can just sabotage the fire trucks before they show up.


Uncle Ho- While I admire your courage to be a pariah in a community of pariahs, you are a wo/man of contradictions. You claim to want to take it to the next level, but don't seem to take your own advise and negotiate with the bourgeoisie . You come here, a site for revolutionary leftists and pretend you are some sort of revolutionary but you speak of the movement almost like an outsider. You do not seem to have any sound political education, reasoning or grasp of revolutionary politics and have not demonstrated at any point any qualities which would lead me to want to take up arms with you. If you can link to any of your post wichI talk like an outsider because I am an outsider to this new movement. Gone are the days of serious direct action and real organizing. They have been replaced with a bunch of utterly impotent, self-important lifestylists too busy blogging and tweeting the revolution to fight the revolution. They're softer than goose down and about as creative as the goose it came from. These kids aren't going to get anything done, they don't even want to. All they're doing is blowing off some steam so they can piss off mommy and daddy.

We spent most of our time fighting against the parents of this modern "activist" crop, and I have no doubt we'll spend our old age fighting them from our walkers after they take the reins.


Uncle Ho- If you were true to your word, you would go burn down whiteclay or whatever town is only liquor stores for indians. But instead you are breaking bottles on the ground.

Your rhetoric<----------------------a very great distance------------------------->your reality

Too dangerous. The nearest fire department is almost 4 hours away, and there are buildings on the reservation within walking distance of Whiteclay.

We're willing to fight, but no one wants to burn what few homes the reservation has just to spite some liquor store owners.

[Sasha]

you think watercanons at protests involve fire trucks and fire hydrants?

:laugh:

and you claim to have been at summit protests?

:laugh::laugh:

why dont you just turn of the computer now and go back at teasing your litle sister....

[The Ungovernable Farce]

whew, glad we got all of those personal attacks and strawmen out of the way. now do you think we could discuss ideas, tactics and strategy like adults?
Still waiting for this bit.


...their little political fantasy and pretending to be tough.


If you refuse to stand and fight, you are worse than the bourgeoisie.

Every time a self-proclaimed anarchist runs from colored smoke, every time a journalist is clubbed and arrested, every time we stand idly by and let them win, the ruling class grows stronger.



Allowing them to be better armed and trained is the greatest reason why the western left has not succeeded, and will not for the foreseeable future.

And yes, I would applaud them plowing over the police and right into the summit building. If their goal was to make the leaders listen... a tank through their walls would be a remarkably effective way to do it.


If the thing had guns inside, they would have had everything they needed (except courage, of course) to do something significant. Even if it didn't, putting an APC through the wall of a summit building is going to stop it a lot quicker than wearing a silly mask and waving a sign.
And the reason they're not armed is? (Hint: They don't actually want to change anything)

If you want to see what armed protesters can do, look up any successful revolution. The key thread that links them together is people with weapons, not little punks with masks and signs.


You arm, or you are oppressed by those who are. It's that simple.

Wait, let's look at that again:


I don't think Anarchists are concerned with much but their little political fantasy and pretending to be tough.


If you refuse to stand and fight, you are worse than the bourgeoisie.

Every time a self-proclaimed anarchist runs from colored smoke, every time a journalist is clubbed and arrested, every time we stand idly by and let them win, the ruling class grows stronger.



Allowing them to be better armed and trained is the greatest reason why the western left has not succeeded, and will not for the foreseeable future.

And yes, I would applaud them plowing over the police and right into the summit building. If their goal was to make the leaders listen... a tank through their walls would be a remarkably effective way to do it.


If the thing had guns inside, they would have had everything they needed (except courage, of course) to do something significant. Even if it didn't, putting an APC through the wall of a summit building is going to stop it a lot quicker than wearing a silly mask and waving a sign.
And the reason they're not armed is? (Hint: They don't actually want to change anything)

If you want to see what armed protesters can do, look up any successful revolution. The key thread that links them together is people with weapons, not little punks with masks and signs.


You arm, or you are oppressed by those who are. It's that simple.





That's because people in the West got their wealth by exploiting everyone else.
Yep. Class analysis is boring, there's just people who live in one place and people who live in a different place, and that's all any revolutionary needs to know.

Yes, but I understand that everything I have is due to exploitation. The very land I live on was stolen after my forefathers set out on a campaign of genocide against the Native Americans. These are wounds that will not be healed by waving a sign.
Fun fact: You actually aren't personally responsible for things that happened before you were born. Shocking, but true.

Better just mull about the streets blogging the revolution and making sure we get lots of screen time so all the socialist honies can know we're hard!
Yes, damn those people who talk on the internet about how hard and revolutionary they are.

I'd appreciate if you didn't work inside the quotes like that so I can respond.

And I'd appreciate it if you could start making actual arguments that bore some relation to reality, instead of just recycling tired strawmen and talking absolute shit. I suspect we're both going to be disappointed.

[Uncle Ho]

you think watercanons at protests involve fire trucks and fire hydrants?

:laugh:

and you claim to have been at summit protests?

:laugh::laugh:

why dont you just turn of the computer now and go back at teasing your litle sister....


Yes, in most places they do. Very few jurisdictions can afford the dedicated riot vehicles, and even if they can, it doesn't change anything for how you'd handle it. Even the dedicated riot vehicles cannot operate for long without refilling, and this will either be from a tender truck or a hydrant.

Not that you'd know this, of course, as I'm sure you flee long before they even begin spraying.

[Psy]

Yes, in most places they do. Very few jurisdictions can afford the dedicated riot vehicles, and even if they can, it doesn't change anything for how you'd handle it. Even the dedicated riot vehicles cannot operate for long without refilling, and this will either be from a tender truck or a hydrant.

Not that you'd know this, of course, as I'm sure you flee long before they even begin spraying.

Water cannons are rarely alone, they usually have police APCs with teargas and sting generates protecting them plus the riot police, its is only really vulnerable when the wind is blowing against it and it can't get much range and teargas blows back towards it but even then they are usally well protect behind APCs and line of riot police.

Sure a revolutionary army could easily dispatch them but not protesters.

[Sasha]

Yes, in most places they do. Very few jurisdictions can afford the dedicated riot vehicles, and even if they can, it doesn't change anything for how you'd handle it. Even the dedicated riot vehicles cannot operate for long without refilling, and this will either be from a tender truck or a hydrant.

Not that you'd know this, of course, as I'm sure you flee long before they even begin spraying.


stop being so stupid UScentric.

welcome to amsterdam, i'm in this movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_3YIsiBHI4

[ellipsis]

You're not going to find many non-federal police department that can afford the heavy duty kit, and even if you did, you get a bigger gun, get AP rounds, shoot twice or go for the head. You didn't specify. You said police body armor can be penetrated with standard hunting rifles. I am no expert on what police actually use, but SWAT teams and other special units, which are no doubt on stand-by at these rallies, are equipped with ballistic plates and automatic weapons. You can push around riot cops but there are plenty of cops with real guns and real ammo to shoot you and your comrades if you try. Armor will reduce the effectiveness of your weapon, regardless of grade and type of weapon used. True AP rounds (tungsten cored not steel cored) are illegal.


And actually, you can purchase a full-automatic weapon, you just need to pay a tax stamp on it. Not that you'd really want to, that is.

ATF National Firearms Act tax stamps a very expensive and hard to obtain and anybody with any sort of shady background would be rejected. It is not a simple process by any standards.


Well, disregarding the fact that this system has not even been developed to the point of usability yet, you move out of the way, get behind something solid and continue on. I for one, await these devices so one can be reverse engineered and used against the cops.
uhhh....

The Active Denial System (ADS) is a less-lethal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less-lethal), directed-energy weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon) developed by the U.S. military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_armed_forces).[/URL] It is a strong millimeter-wave transmitter primarily used for crowd control (the "goodbye effect" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System#cite_note-0)). Some ADS such as HPEM ADS are also used to disable vehicles. Informally, the weapon is also called pain ray. Raytheon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System#cite_note-2) is currently marketing a reduced-range version of this technology. The ADS is currently being considered for deployment in the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War"]Iraq War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System#cite_note-4).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Active_Denial_System_Humvee.jpg/220px-Active_Denial_System_Humvee.jpg

If you run away from they pain beam, that is exactly what they want to happen, it is not a counter measure; they are not trying to cook you. Your other counter measure is to some how steal one, figure out how to use it, redeploy it without being stopped and use it against the cops? very plausible.:rolleyes:


Ever heard of a helmet? Having a nice riot shield helps too, just as long as you've got a bat to go along with it
And buys 200 dollars or more of gear for every protesters is possible how? You wear riot gear to a protest and they will take you down, by any means necessary from a safe distance.


These are easy. Lots of options. You can move out of the way and all attack the truck at the same time from different sides, you can launch projectiles at the operator, forcing him to withdraw, you can cut the water pressure by opening other hydrants, or if you're really organized, you can just sabotage the fire trucks before they show up.
:blink:Good luck with that.

[Psy]

You didn't specify. You said police body armor can be penetrated with standard hunting rifles. I am no expert on what police actually use, but SWAT teams and other special units, which are no doubt on stand-by at these rallies, are equipped with ballistic plates and automatic weapons. You can push around riot cops but there are plenty of cops with real guns and real ammo to shoot you and your comrades if you try. Armor will reduce the effectiveness of your weapon, regardless of grade and type of weapon used. True AP rounds (tungsten cored not steel cored) are illegal.

You'd only need tungsten rounds against relative heavy armored targets like APCs, most body amour can't withstand large powerful rifle calibers (like 7.62x54mmR) at very close ranges and even if the body armor does stop the bullet it would send the police officer flying.

Of course protesters don't have firepower, so Uncle Ho is wrong since that kind of force would only be wielded against the police by a revolutionary army.



And buys 200 dollars or more of gear for every protesters is possible how? You wear riot gear to a protest and they will take you down, by any means necessary from a safe distance.

Industrial hardhats only run about $30, most manufactures give discounts for bulk orders of course most industrial workers already have access to them. Of course by the time you convince industrial workers to loot their workplaces for hardhats for a fight with police you should be in near a revolution anyway so once again you'd be talking about a revolutionary army not protesters.

[Uncle Ho]

You didn't specify. You said police body armor can be penetrated with standard hunting rifles. I am no expert on what police actually use, but SWAT teams and other special units, which are no doubt on stand-by at these rallies, are equipped with ballistic plates and automatic weapons. You can push around riot cops but there are plenty of cops with real guns and real ammo to shoot you and your comrades if you try. Armor will reduce the effectiveness of your weapon, regardless of grade and type of weapon used. True AP rounds (tungsten cored not steel cored) are illegal.

7.62x39 with steel core ammunition will penetrate all but the heaviest body armor, which not even the military issues to it's soldiers.

Even if you didn't have it, you could shoot twice, since the first shot shatters the plate.

Also, most riot police don't even wear body armor, as you can't wear both body armor and riot gear at the same time. You have to chose one or the other.


ATF National Firearms Act tax stamps a very expensive and hard to obtain and anybody with any sort of shady background would be rejected. It is not a simple process by any standards.They are no harder to get than a conventional firearm, just more expensive.

Not that it matters, as no revolutionary in his right mind would use a traceable firearm.



uhhh....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Active_Denial_System_Humvee.jpg/220px-Active_Denial_System_Humvee.jpg

If you run away from they pain beam, that is exactly what they want to happen, it is not a counter measure; they are not trying to cook you. Your other counter measure is to some how steal one, figure out how to use it, redeploy it without being stopped and use it against the cops? very plausible.:rolleyes:Firstly, not a single one has yet been deployed and the technology is still in it's testing stages. There is a very high chance it will never leave them, as this is the nature of arms developers.

Even if it did, the system is designed not to transmit through walls and only targets a small area. So, the punk anarchists and their dumpsters would finally be useful, and could protect you from this device, as could jersey barriers, doorways, cars and a myriad of other devices.

Also, who said anything about stealing it? If it's released to the market, you can easily reverse engineer one and build your own.



And buys 200 dollars or more of gear for every protesters is possible how? You wear riot gear to a protest and they will take you down, by any means necessary from a safe distance.If you pay 200 dollars for a helmet, goggles, gas mask, baseball bat and trashcan lid, you're a damn fool.

The mask is the only expensive item there, all the rest can be found at your friendly local thrift store. For 200 you could buy nearly the same setup the cops will be wearing.

Or you could just buy a gun and really change something.

By the way, I've shown up at a whole lot of actions ready to fight, and the cops haven't taken me down by any means or at any range.

I know, you need to justify your own cowardice and/or lack of conviction to yourself. I can understand this, but there are people who don't think cops are invincible boogeymen. People who actually practice what they preach instead of ranting about their perfect Socialist society only to flee in terror the very second some mean looking man glares at them.

Just don't pretend to be hard. You're only lying to yourself, and it offends me.



:blink:Good luck with that.Good luck in what? Getting a handful of people to work together? Throwing something? Turning a wrench?

If you're going to wish me good luck for these things, I fear we have fallen quite far indeed.


stop being so stupid UScentric.

welcome to amsterdam, i'm in this movie:
g_3YIsiBHI4

If I was going to be US Centric, I'd say water cannons are a total nonfactor as they have not been used here for decades.

Also, which one are you in that video? The one running from the tear gas or the one aimlessly throwing debris at a bulldozer as it destroys those barricades you constructed? Maybe if you'd have saved your fancy pyrotechnics displays for it, you could have done better.

Out on the rez, we have to take out dozers the old fashioned way. We just get some brave guys to rush it, drag the driver out of the cabin and use it for ourselves. When they started jury rigging the doors, we had to resort to using center punches to shatter the windshields, but that's always enough to get the driver to vacate remarkably fast.

[bcbm]

Or you could just buy a gun and really change something.

you've yet to explain how one person or a small number of people with guns could change class relations.

[Uncle Ho]

you've yet to explain how one person or a small number of people with guns could change class relations.

You can throw gasoline all you like, but until you get a spark, there's no fire.

Someone has to bring the spark.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

You can throw matches on a damp concrete floor all you want, and there'll be plenty of sparks, but it's still not going to start a fire. Assuming you've actually been doing all the super-ultra-mega-revolutionary stuff you've been talking about doing, why has nothing changed?

[Uncle Ho]

You can throw matches on a damp concrete floor all you want, and there'll be plenty of sparks, but it's still not going to start a fire. Assuming you've actually been doing all the super-ultra-mega-revolutionary stuff you've been talking about doing, why has nothing changed?

I'm mostly involved with Native activists, and the reason is simple for them.

No one cares about Native Americans. No one ever has, and despite our best efforts, it's looking like no one ever will. Too few, too far away, and too many missing white girls to care about instead.

[bcbm]

You can throw gasoline all you like, but until you get a spark, there's no fire.

Someone has to bring the spark.

you've yet to explain how one person or a small number of people with guns could change class relations. vague metaphorical bullshit doesn't cut it. what is it that you are proposing, in concrete terms, and how will it motivate the working class to seize power?

[ellipsis]

I am not trying to argue about these technologies and how useful or not useful they would be in a given scenerio. You made incorrect statements that you continue to revise in order to make less false. Regardless of it's effects 7.62x39 steel core is not AP and does not have significantly better ballitics than lead core.
NFA tax stamps require much more regulation and law enforcement over sight.

The ADS is functional and has been demonstrated. The future is in energy weapons, such as the LRAD. You seem to think that a lot is easily including building diy energy weapons of military grade. Just as easy as disabling an entire cities fire department, right?

Show up to a protest in the gear you describe and see how far you get. They would shoot anybody attacking them with a bat.

You talk about what a pussy I am, that I am unwilling to confront police. The guerrilla never enters a battle which he doesnt know he will win and during which he will exhaust more resources than he will gain in the action. I am well prepared and very willing to take up arms to defend myself and the interests of the working class. It's really funny for you to be saying that I am too timid, when others on the site accuse me of being a nut job too focused on violent/armed revolution. Check out my blog in my sig and tell me that I am afraid of confrontation and favor summit hopping as a means social change.

[Искра]

People write - people do shit.

[Uncle Ho]

you've yet to explain how one person or a small number of people with guns could change class relations. vague metaphorical bullshit doesn't cut it. what is it that you are proposing, in concrete terms, and how will it motivate the working class to seize power?

Look around you. The fracture lines are everywhere. We have an energized Left AND Right now, and they even share some common enemies. Unions are rapidly radicalizing now that they've realized Obama is no friend of theirs and the working person is angry. People are protesting in record numbers, they're scuffling with police and each other. They're openly bringing weapons and they look increasingly primed to use them.

Add police oppression to this anger and we have the bomb and the fuse. All someone needs to do is light it and we're off. Something will blow up, and we must then decide where we will all land.



The ADS is functional and has been demonstrated. The future is in energy weapons, such as the LRAD. You seem to think that a lot is easily including building diy energy weapons of military grade. Just as easy as disabling an entire cities fire department, right? Yes, laser weapons are functional and have been demonstrated, yet they are a long ways off. There's a big difference between making a working prototype and making it practical. Even Raytheon admits that these new microwave weapons are easily defeated by anything more solid than clothing, so I really doubt it's going to be a game changer.

Also, LRADs are quite possibly the biggest joke weapon ever devised (They couldn't even stop Sea Shepherd, possibly the single most inept activist group in history), and it is incredibly easy to make one yourself if you have a basic understanding of electronics, some time and a little money. It's just a large directional speaker emitting high frequency noise.


Show up to a protest in the gear you describe and see how far you get. They would shoot anybody attacking them with a bat.I've been in this game for a while, and I haven't been shot yet. Then again, I am smart enough to stay far away from the lifestyle kids and I am not foolish enough to charge at a line of police like I'm a Braveheart extra.


You talk about what a pussy I am, that I am unwilling to confront police. The guerrilla never enters a battle which he doesnt know he will win and during which he will exhaust more resources than he will gain in the action. I am well prepared and very willing to take up arms to defend myself and the interests of the working class. It's really funny for you to be saying that I am too timid, when others on the site accuse me of being a nut job too focused on violent/armed revolution. Check out my blog in my sig and tell me that I am afraid of confrontation and favor summit hopping as a means social change.It's easy enough to buy a gun, comrade. It's a little more difficult to muster the courage to use it.

[bcbm]

Look around you. The fracture lines are everywhere.

i agree here. but i think this means we need to be organizing and agitating in an attempt to open those fractures along class lines. trying to light shit off and letting the chips fall where they may at this stage probably wouldn't mean very good things for most of the working class.

[Uncle Ho]

i agree here. but i think this means we need to be organizing and agitating in an attempt to open those fractures along class lines. trying to light shit off and letting the chips fall where they may at this stage probably wouldn't mean very good things for most of the working class.

If history was not so quick to bury the significance of events like the Easter Rising and Eureka rebellion, I would think you'd have a different opinion on this. Win or lose, if you make your goals clearly known, if people agree with them and you have the courage to fight for them, they will go much farther than if plastered on a sign or a flyer.

The left struggles with the first, but has significant traction on the second. If we could get someone to focus and fight, we could accomplish great things.

[bcbm]

If history was not so quick to bury the significance of events like the Easter Rising and Eureka rebellion, I would think you'd have a different opinion on this. Win or lose, if you make your goals clearly known, if people agree with them and you have the courage to fight for them, they will go much farther than if plastered on a sign or a flyer.

again i largely agree, i just don't think pursuing anything with arms is very strategic at this stage. that doesn't mean just putting up flyers. i think the occupations recently in california are in a step in the right direction.

[Psy]

The ADS is functional and has been demonstrated. The future is in energy weapons, such as the LRAD. You seem to think that a lot is easily including building diy energy weapons of military grade. Just as easy as disabling an entire cities fire department, right?

I would disagree with that, chemical weapons still dominate the battlefield, energy weapons are not even in the same league to the explosive force of thermobaric bombs (that is a chemical and physical reaction) that are quickly approaching the force of nuclear warheads per size of warhead.

LRAD would be no match to a revolutionary army with common industrial ear protection. Okay you might say what it is useful against protesters, well no since odds are LRAD will eventually be banned as it can easily cause hearing damage at 300 meters meaning eventually you'd have people suing police deparments for hearing damage as LRAD damages hearing to an area far larger then teargas harms lungs (and LRAD damages hearing far worse even at 300 meters then teargas harms lungs). Also even with ear protection police officer get ear damage due to being so close for a prolonged period of time so eventually police officers will sue their police deparments for long term health issues caused by LRAD.



Show up to a protest in the gear you describe and see how far you get. They would shoot anybody attacking them with a bat.

True but show up to a protect is industrial protective gear and I doubt they would act the same way, for example workers showing up still in hardhards, face visors, masks, gloves and leather aprons would have decent protection but get a very different raction from police then protestors showing up in riot gear.

[ellipsis]

Add police oppression to this anger and we have the bomb and the fuse. All someone needs to do is light it and we're off. Something will blow up, and we must then decide where we will all land.
What a great strategy! Let things go to shit and THEN decide how we are going to try to put things back to together? Stoke a civil war and hope the anti-capitalist factions emerges on top?


Yes, laser weapons are functional and have been demonstrated, yet they are a long ways off. There's a big difference between making a working prototype and making it practical. Even Raytheon admits that these new microwave weapons are easily defeated by anything more solid than clothing, so I really doubt it's going to be a game changer.

Also, LRADs are quite possibly the biggest joke weapon ever devised (They couldn't even stop Sea Shepherd, possibly the single most inept activist group in history), and it is incredibly easy to make one yourself if you have a basic understanding of electronics, some time and a little money. It's just a large directional speaker emitting high frequency noise.

When i said energy weapons, this includes sound, microwave, laser/light and electrical energy. Chemical laser prototypes have been installed on planes, but power remains the key barrier to further development. ADS, Tasers, EMP, LRAD, laser dazzlers etc. are all energy based weapons. All have potential counter measures sure but these will only mitigate their effects on some people. Chemical weapons are still to be used but are a bit dated.

First you said it was easy to build an ADS not you have changed your tune and say it is easy to build a LRAD. Can I pay you to build these things for me? It should be pretty easy to drive those liquor store owners out of town with all of these DIY energy weapons. I bet you could also build your own UAVs to patrol the rez and you could build your own hellfire missiles too. You know, because it is all so easy. I know this because you say these things are easy, so it must be true


I've been in this game for a while, and I haven't been shot yet. Then again, I am smart enough to stay far away from the lifestyle kids and I am not foolish enough to charge at a line of police like I'm a Braveheart extra.
So where have you been with all of these great tactics which you describe? How come you haven't garnered a cadre and started beating up cops, disabling fire engines, etc etc? It is all so simple and easy right? Apparently you are not foolish enough to practice what you preach. You talk about doing all these things at protests, but then say when you go to protests, nothing happens to you, assuming because you too busy making snide comments about everybody else and their OMG! iPhones. "These damn kids these days with their hip-hop and go-gurts and internets. I better go on the internet and talk about how stupid they are for using the internet."


It's easy enough to buy a gun, comrade. It's a little more difficult to muster the courage to use it. And have you done either? Have you mustered the courage to use a gun against your enemies? This is just more of your vague tough-guy bull shit.

The actions which you describe would not work for many reasons. No action occurs in a vacuum. People start hearing about commies attacking police and they will be even more supportive of government tyranny in their pursuit of quelling rebellion. You would invite more repression from the state which you think would lead to more people rebelling but history tells us is not always the case.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I'm mostly involved with Native activists, and the reason is simple for them.

No one cares about Native Americans. No one ever has, and despite our best efforts, it's looking like no one ever will. Too few, too far away, and too many missing white girls to care about instead.
So, you say that the level of class consciousness is not high enough for people to show basic solidarity with communities from different ethnic backgrounds, and yet you think that this apathetic, divided population you describe will suddenly leap into open revolt the minute a few isolated activists start running around with guns?

[Psy]

When i said energy weapons, this includes sound, microwave, laser/light and electrical energy. Chemical laser prototypes have been installed on planes, but power remains the key barrier to further development. ADS, Tasers, EMP, LRAD, laser dazzlers etc. are all energy based weapons. All have potential counter measures sure but these will only mitigate their effects on some people. Chemical weapons are still to be used but are a bit dated.

On a side note, I just don't see chemical based weapons being outdated when chemical explosives are rapidly approaching the explosive force of tactical nuclear warheads.

I just don't see energy weapons being practice against an army, it is not like an opposing army will stay in the open so you can blast them with energy weapons, odds are they will use cover to protect them from machine guns that mostly will also protect them from energy weapons.

[ellipsis]

I don't think that c-4, semtex, etc. are considered chemical weapons as their desired effect is achieved by releasing heat and other types of energy.

The chemical laser they are developing is mounted on a plane and is meant to disable vehicles and presumably other targets on the ground. Less lethal energy weapons are meant for crowd control and do the job pretty well. Against a conventional army, these weapons could be used in a deterrent manner, to coral troop movement. All I am saying is that I have noticed a significant trend towards the development of energy weapons/non-explosive based weapons. Obviously all types of weapons will continue to be developed.

[cyu]

you've yet to explain how one person or a small number of people with guns could change class relations... how will it motivate the working class to seize power?



From http://www.revleft.com/vb/weapons-mass-deception-t120176/index.html

1. Take some event in which you feel the local media is only reporting the views of the ruling class (maybe when a strike happens, maybe when there's a protest, maybe there's some event the media totally omits). Organize a largish group of activists to simply walk into your local news room, bring a list of the points you want to make, then stand in front of the camera while they are trying to film and make your points - keep doing it until the points you are making are getting fair play in the local media.

2. Repeat step 1 until it's fairly common. Then move on to a schedule in which activists are regularly assuming democratic control of your local media outlet for maybe 1 day a week, 1 week a month, etc.

3. As step 2 becomes fairly common, move on to advocate full employee democracy and community democracy for the policies and governance of your local media.

...so what does this have to do with weapons? Well, when carrying out these activities, capitalists may send in their minions to try to stop you. So you have some options:

1. Let yourself get beaten
2. Let yourself be arrested
3. Run away
4. Defend yourself with your weapons
5. Take their weapons before they can be used against you
6. Arrest them before you even begin the steps above
7. Incapacitate them before you even begin the steps above
8. Kill them before you even begin the steps above

Personally, I'm in favor of #4.

[bcbm]

you're in favor of getting into a shootout with cops while you're trying to bring up some talking points on a tv station?

[Uncle Ho]

What a great strategy! Let things go to shit and THEN decide how we are going to try to put things back to together? Stoke a civil war and hope the anti-capitalist factions emerges on top?

Yeah, that's basically the gist of it. It's worked for every successful revolutionary organization thus far, but they actually had the courage to try.


When i said energy weapons, this includes sound, microwave, laser/light and electrical energy. Chemical laser prototypes have been installed on planes, but power remains the key barrier to further development. ADS, Tasers, EMP, LRAD, laser dazzlers etc. are all energy based weapons. All have potential counter measures sure but these will only mitigate their effects on some people. Chemical weapons are still to be used but are a bit dated.Until we get death rays, all these weapons are going to be mostly useless feelgood deterrents for the arms dealers to make a quick buck and "clean up their act"

Tasers can be defeated by thick coats, LRADS can be defeated with hearing protection and the ADS, when/if it is ever produced, can be defeated by getting behind something solid.

All these things will ever accomplish is taking out the people who shouldn't be there in the first place.


First you said it was easy to build an ADS not you have changed your tune and say it is easy to build a LRAD. Can I pay you to build these things for me? It should be pretty easy to drive those liquor store owners out of town with all of these DIY energy weapons. I bet you could also build your own UAVs to patrol the rez and you could build your own hellfire missiles too. You know, because it is all so easy. I know this because you say these things are easy, so it must be trueI never said it was easy to build an ADS. I don't know how one would be built, which is why I await them hitting the market, so I can find out. Anything that they can mass produce can be built by any competent electronics technician. It might not be as refined, but it should work.

As for the LRAD, why would we waste time and money on that when we're doing what amount to raids? It doesn't suit the operation at all. Although, the option is not off the table for future, more aggressive operations. The concept behind those is very simple indeed. Simply hook a high frequency function generator to a speaker and you have a demonstration of the concept behind the LRAD.



So where have you been with all of these great tactics which you describe? How come you haven't garnered a cadre and started beating up cops, disabling fire engines, etc etc? It is all so simple and easy right? Apparently you are not foolish enough to practice what you preach. You talk about doing all these things at protests, but then say when you go to protests, nothing happens to you, assuming because you too busy making snide comments about everybody else and their OMG! iPhones. "These damn kids these days with their hip-hop and go-gurts and internets. I better go on the internet and talk about how stupid they are for using the internet."I've been on the reservations, trying to actually change something. It's a little difficult for me to travel far without being detained, and even if I could, I wouldn't spend my time summit hopping with the sandwich board crew.

Maybe someday when they demonstrate they're ready to fight instead of just posturing, I'll show up.


And have you done either? Have you mustered the courage to use a gun against your enemies? This is just more of your vague tough-guy bull shit.I have not shot anyone, but I don't think it prudent to say much more of my history with arms.

Loose lips sink ships, after all.


The actions which you describe would not work for many reasons. No action occurs in a vacuum. People start hearing about commies attacking police and they will be even more supportive of government tyranny in their pursuit of quelling rebellion. You would invite more repression from the state which you think would lead to more people rebelling but history tells us is not always the case.Odd, then, as the history I've read tells me that every successful revolution had a catalyst, a sudden and violent event, which set it off. These events were usually unsuccessful, but they galvanized the people to fight.

Really, the only time these tactics haven't worked is for groups like the RAF, who were a bunch of bourgeoisie kids from the very beginning, and therefore could never connect with the proles they claimed to support. This has usually been the problem with the Western left post WW2.

[ellipsis]

Yeah, that's basically the gist of it. It's worked for every successful revolutionary organization thus far, but they actually had the courage to try.
Really which ones?


I've been on the reservations, trying to actually change something. It's a little difficult for me to travel far without being detained, and even if I could, I wouldn't spend my time summit hopping with the sandwich board crew. But you have made references to going to protests, but now you can't travel freely and don't go to protests? I am confused.


I have not shot anyone, but I don't think it prudent to say much more of my history with arms. But it is prudent to encourage people to attack police, which could be used by the state to entrap you on conspiracy charges?


Odd, then, as the history I've read tells me that every successful revolution had a catalyst, a sudden and violent event, which set it off. These events were usually unsuccessful, but they galvanized the people to fight.

Really, the only time these tactics haven't worked is for groups like the RAF, who were a bunch of bourgeoisie kids from the very beginning, and therefore could never connect with the proles they claimed to support.

Again name these sucessful revolution which were touched off by a small vanguard committing violent actions like you have described. You have at no point provided any real life examples to support you assertions.

Besides the RAF, you could add the weather underground, the FLQ, pretty much every urban guerrilla group in Latin America. But you really have the burden of proof here.

[Uncle Ho]

Really which ones?

Just off the top of my head, I can think of Ireland (Both times), Australia (Although not a violent revolution, the agitation that led to the current democratic government began with an armed miner's uprising), Cuba, The United States, France, India, Russia and Mexico.

Again, those are just the ones I can think of right away, I'm sure with some digging I could find more.


But you have made references to going to protests, but now you can't travel freely and don't go to protests? I am confused.

When you participate in aggressive, successful actions, you tend to build up a police dossier, comrade.


But it is prudent to encourage people to attack police, which could be used by the state to entrap you on conspiracy charges?

If they actually do it in earnest, my imprisonment would be a small price to pay.

[ellipsis]

The cuban revolution was undertaken both the urban social movements and Fidel's guerrilla. The American revolution was driven by the bourgeois. I don't think any of your examples began with anything similar to what you have proposed in this thread.

Don't get me wrong, I support, in theory what you propose at some level. I am sick of watching people get pushed around by the cops while they become further and further repressed. But there is a time and a place for everything. Class consciousness is the key, otherwise you are viewed as the enemy by the vast majority of the populace. Again, actions do not occur in a vacuum, and myopic attempts to engage the state in a violent/semi-violent manner will have a hugely negative impact. All military actions are also fundamentally political actions; a military victory does not necessarily lead to a political.The guerrilla cannot hope to compete militarily in the first stages of an insurgency; the guerrilla must achieve political victories. To paraphrase mao The people are the sea in which the guerrilla swims; if the conditions are not right, the guerrilla will not thrive.

[Saorsa]

Uncle Ho is, in my opinion, probably a troll and possibly a police spy sent here to try and entrap people. Seriously, no serious leftist could be as monumentally dumb as him. We know this site is monitored by the police. A long standing user of this site was arrested and interrogated based on comments he made here. And along comes 'Uncle Ho', whose only contribution no matter what the thread is urging people to buy guns and shoot cops.

What the fuck are you trying to do you idiot? If you were actually an armed urban guerilla (which you are not, your probably a 13 year old kid with a hardon for guns) you would know better than to post this shit publicly online. If it was only you that could get in trouble because of it I really wouldn't care, but your endangering other people. It is a crime in plenty of countries to discuss the use of weaponry against the police, at the very least you could end up on conspiracy charges, and the kind of shit your posting is exactly what makes working class people see the radical left as a bunch of nutjobs.

Fuck off. Stop posting here. Stop making shit up about what a big tough rebel gunman you are and stop endangering others with your fake, pseudo-revolutionary bullshit.

[Uncle Ho]

Don't get me wrong, I support, in theory what you propose at some level. I am sick of watching people get pushed around by the cops while they become further and further repressed. But there is a time and a place for everything. Class consciousness is the key, otherwise you are viewed as the enemy by the vast majority of the populace. Again, actions do not occur in a vacuum, and myopic attempts to engage the state in a violent/semi-violent manner will have a hugely negative impact. All military actions are also fundamentally political actions; a military victory does not necessarily lead to a political.The guerrilla cannot hope to compete militarily in the first stages of an insurgency; the guerrilla must achieve political victories. To paraphrase mao The people are the sea in which the guerrilla swims; if the conditions are not right, the guerrilla will not thrive.

The problem is, we are not achieving political victories. The best we have been able to accomplish in the past few decades is smashing some bank windows and a few token withdrawls of bankers.

We're bashing our heads against the wall, and wondering why it will not yield. It's hard to tell which way to proceed. The Left is hopelessly fractured, rudderless and diluted. Our ranks are filled with bourgeois lifestylers, blowing off some steam before they take their roles as oppressors in chief.

Most of us are still far better off than the rest of the world, so there is no incentive to fight, those who are not are dead or dying. We have no charismatic leaders left, and far too many people who think they are. The working class is hopelessly divided and our labor unions have been totally defanged.

How do we move forward, then? To be honest, I don't know. I will keep doing the same thing I have done for 30 years and hope the CIA doesn't send another death squad.


Uncle Ho is, in my opinion, probably a troll and possibly a police spy sent here to try and entrap people. Seriously, no serious leftist could be as monumentally dumb as him. We know this site is monitored by the police. A long standing user of this site was arrested and interrogated based on comments he made here. And along comes 'Uncle Ho', whose only contribution no matter what the thread is urging people to buy guns and shoot cops.

What the fuck are you trying to do you idiot? If you were actually an armed urban guerilla (which you are not, your probably a 13 year old kid with a hardon for guns) you would know better than to post this shit publicly online. If it was only you that could get in trouble because of it I really wouldn't care, but your endangering other people. It is a crime in plenty of countries to discuss the use of weaponry against the police, at the very least you could end up on conspiracy charges, and the kind of shit your posting is exactly what makes working class people see the radical left as a bunch of nutjobs.

Fuck off. Stop posting here. Stop making shit up about what a big tough rebel gunman you are and stop endangering others with your fake, pseudo-revolutionary bullshit.

I am not a gunman or an urban guerilla, I have never killed anyone, nor do I think I ever will. These days I spend more time cooking breakfasts, wiring homes and delivering free prescriptions than fighting.

I am an activist for the Native Americans, specifically the Oglala Lakota on Pine Ridge. My mother and father did the same thing, along with aggressive union organizing. Mom got out of jail long enough to have me, and then was arrested with me on her back at an action in Porcupine. Shortly after that, my father was beaten nearly to death by the CIA trained Guardians of The Oglala Nation. He got off lucky, most of their targets were simply shot. I have, in all likelihood, been "monitored" since my birth and I am quite well acquainted with all the jails in the area, but thankfully the ACLU and Native Activists have kept me out of the gulags.

I stopped fearing the big bad wolf many years ago.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Yeah, that's basically the gist of it. It's worked for every successful revolutionary organization thus far, but they actually had the courage to try.
And were in conditions where they were able to win. It hasn't worked for every unsuccessful armed struggle organisation thus far, and there's been a lot of them.


Odd, then, as the history I've read tells me that every successful revolution had a catalyst, a sudden and violent event, which set it off. These events were usually unsuccessful, but they galvanized the people to fight.

Really, the only time these tactics haven't worked is for groups like the RAF, who were a bunch of bourgeoisie kids from the very beginning, and therefore could never connect with the proles they claimed to support. This has usually been the problem with the Western left post WW2.
And the groups theredson named, and the Russian Nihilists, and the Red Brigades (who had fairly deep roots in the working class, as it happens), and Alexander Berkman, and the Angry Brigades, and the Symbionese Liberation Army, and the Bonnot Gang, and Czolgosz, and Emile Henry, and Action Directe, and the Communist Combatant Cells, and the Free Wales Army, and 17 November, and ETA, and...would you look at that, it seems as though a massive shitload of people have tried your tactics and failed to achieve anything, and usually strengthened the forces of reaction in the process. It's almost as if they don't work except in very specific circumstances, which the current situation clearly does not resemble.

Just off the top of my head, I can think of Ireland (Both times), Australia (Although not a violent revolution, the agitation that led to the current democratic government began with an armed miner's uprising), Cuba, The United States, France, India, Russia and Mexico.
Hooray! Let's thank the wonderful urban guerrilla vanguards who turned Ireland, Australia, Cuba, the United States, France, India, Russia and Mexico into the glorious communist workers' paradises they are today! Oh, wait a minute...

[Uncle Ho]

And the groups theredson named, and the Russian Nihilists, and the Red Brigades (who had fairly deep roots in the working class, as it happens), and Alexander Berkman, and the Angry Brigades, and the Symbionese Liberation Army, and the Bonnot Gang, and Czolgosz, and Emile Henry, and Action Directe, and the Communist Combatant Cells, and the Free Wales Army, and 17 November, and ETA, and...would you look at that, it seems as though a massive shitload of people have tried your tactics and failed to achieve anything, and usually strengthened the forces of reaction in the process. It's almost as if they don't work except in very specific circumstances, which the current situation clearly does not resemble.

These groups failed because they thought killing people was enough. You must connect with your community if you want support. Shooting politicians and Capitalists is not enough, as they will use their propaganda machines to demonize you.

If you have strong ties with the community, they will not believe the propaganda and will support you. Most of these groups did not understand this, as they were bourgeoisie born and bred, and had been insulated from the proles their whole lives.

Revolutions must come from the working class, not the ruling class.


Hooray! Let's thank the wonderful urban guerrilla vanguards who turned Ireland, Australia, Cuba, the United States, France, India, Russia and Mexico into the glorious communist workers' paradises they are today! Oh, wait a minute...

Hooray! Let's denigrate the accomplishments of the men and women who died for social and political rights. If only those idiots had dressed in black and smashed bank windows, then they would be worthy of MY support! Winning is overrated, REAL revolutionaries are in the game to tweet about flipping off cops.

[ellipsis]

REAL revolutionaries are in the game to tweet about flipping off cops.

Well I blog about flipping off the W.'s and the Nazi pope's motorcade (http://therevolutionscript.blogspot.com/2008/04/my-thoughts-on-washington-dc.html). Surely this makes me a revolutionary, fer REALZ?

So you have admitted that it take more than just the spark you previously talked about. Do you think that the people of the U.S. would support you enough not to believe that propaganda?

I am sorry that we don't believe you are who you says you are, but it is kinda hard when your rhetoric is so outrageous and you seem to have no real grasp of revolutionary politics. Again none of the successful revolutionary movements you give evidence started with any kind of action remotely similar to what you are talking about.

[cyu]

you're in favor of getting into a shootout with cops while you're trying to bring up some talking points on a tv station?

Self defense is merely one step beyond the typical non-violent civil disobedience you see in "liberal" protests.

Police have rules of engagement - there are some things they can and can't do, depending on the situation. Of course, this doesn't mean they always follow their own rules of engagement - as various cases of police brutality captured on video have shown.

So here's the thing - you can even tone down their version of the rules of engagement and still be effective. Not only that, by toning it down even a little bit, you appear to be much less the bad guy. Ultimately, it's all about how everything plays out in the media, since your goal is to influence the working population.

Obviously any struggle involving a media outlet is news - sure the media will film it, but obviously you can't count on their capitalist owners being unbiased. Good thing technology today allows us to partially circumvent the mass media in presenting the non-capitalist viewpoint. However, this is no substitute for actual use of the mass media - which is why democratization of the media is vital.

[bcbm]

uh, so was that a "yes?" simple answer instead of long-winded vagueness, please.

[ellipsis]

Obviously any struggle involving a media outlet is news - sure the media will film it, but obviously you can't count on their capitalist owners being unbiased. Good thing technology today allows us to partially circumvent the mass media in presenting the non-capitalist viewpoint. However, this is no substitute for actual use of the mass media - which is why democratization of the media is vital.

We can agree on this but timing is key. I would think that a temporary seizure of a tv/radio station to broadcast a prerecorded message would be a better approach than what you were describing. Other options to be considered are pirate tv and radio stations.
When APPO drove the police out of Oaxaca in 06, they (students elements of the group IIRC) seized/appropriated a radio station. The radio station was one of the first places paramilitaries shot up in the lead up to the police retaking the city.

[Psy]

We can agree on this but timing is key. I would think that a temporary seizure of a tv/radio station to broadcast a prerecorded message would be a better approach than what you were describing. Other options to be considered are pirate tv and radio stations.
When APPO drove the police out of Oaxaca in 06, they (students elements of the group IIRC) seized/appropriated a radio station. The radio station was one of the first places paramilitaries shot up in the lead up to the police retaking the city.

Personally I see it more a tactic when we move from a revolutionary situation to revolution, where there is actually a revolutionary army to defend occupied industry (including TV/Radio stations) from capitalist armies. It would be more a tactic to rally even more of the proletariat to the defense of a workers revolution already underway.

[bcbm]

a revolutionary army to defend occupied industry (including TV/Radio stations) from capitalist armiesthis sounds really antiquated to me. i don't a revolution in the first world will lead to the creation of a revolutionary army that will be squaring off against capitalist armies. i think a modern revolution will be won through the mass seizure (or perhaps destruction) of power, both economically and politically, rather than military means and these seizures will be defended by the participants themselves, probably through something similar to a militia system. ideally the use of arms will be unnecessary, of course.

[Psy]

this sounds really antiquated to me. i don't a revolution in the first world will lead to the creation of a revolutionary army that will be squaring off against capitalist armies. i think a modern revolution will be won through the mass seizure (or perhaps destruction) of power, both economically and politically, rather than military means and these seizures will be defended by the participants themselves, probably through something similar to a militia system. ideally the use of arms will be unnecessary, of course.

Odds are the bourgeoisie state will react to a revolution by throwing everything it has at crushing it, there would also be the problem of dealing with troops that defect, for example if American troops decide to join bringing their: tanks, helicopters and artillery with them it would be a very good idea to get them to defend the revolution. At very least we would be very entrained watching the police run like scared rabbits when they faced with a revolutionary army with noting better to do then chase riot police around cities in tanks (if you are correct and the bourgeoisie states won't counter-attack, I doubt it though and think revolutionary armies would have their hands full protecting the revolution from capitalist armies).

[bcbm]

by the time our class is in a position to end the reign of the bourgeoisie, i think it will be enough to simply walk over them. even if the state is able to respond, they will be significantly weakened and "everything they have" may not be very much. if it comes down to an actual civil war, i doubt it is going to be regular armies going at it, but a very irregular affair as we seen in iraq or afghanistan, a partisan war.

[Psy]

by the time our class is in a position to end the reign of the bourgeoisie, i think it will be enough to simply walk over them. even if the state is able to respond, they will be significantly weakened and "everything they have" may not be very much. if it comes down to an actual civil war, i doubt it is going to be regular armies going at it, but a very irregular affair as we seen in iraq or afghanistan, a partisan war.

I doubt it, there wouldn't be many irregulars that would fight for the capitalists, the capitalists would rely on the forces in the military that remains loyal to them, while we'd mostly likely take full advantage of troops (and their equipment) that defects to our side.

[bcbm]

i'm saying that our side would be waging a partisan war, while what's left of the ruling class' armed forces will be trying to wage a counter-insurgency. though if they lose control of large areas, they will probably resort to partisan tactics as well- sabotage, etc.

[Psy]

i'm saying that our side would be waging a partisan war, while what's left of the ruling class' armed forces will be trying to wage a counter-insurgency. though if they lose control of large areas, they will probably resort to partisan tactics as well- sabotage, etc.

I don't see this, we'd be occupying the means of production thus our revolutionary armies would be deployed to defend the means of production under our control and the capitalist forces would be trying to take back those means of production making a revolutionary war being very conventional war where both sides fight over property.

A revolutionary army would be defending the factories knowing the capitalists will attack the factories thus the revolutionary army wouldn't have luxury of hit and run as they can't move the means of production, the capitalist armies would know exactly where the means of production the supply the revolutionary armies are making guerrilla warfare totally ineffective, rather the revolutionary armies would have to entrench itself in the cities and take advantage of the defensive advantage of urban warfare.

[leninpuncher]

We're bashing our heads against the wall, and wondering why it will not yield. It's hard to tell which way to proceed. The Left is hopelessly fractured, rudderless and diluted. Our ranks are filled with bourgeois lifestylers, blowing off some steam before they take their roles as oppressors in chief.

You'd be hard-pressed to find any Wall Street CEOs or White House officials with a history in socialist activism. And by "bourgeois lifestylers", I think you might mean middle-class univeristy activists; like Lenin.

Your ranks aren't filled with anyone. Let alone the future rulers of the country.

[Uncle Ho]

You'd be hard-pressed to find any Wall Street CEOs or White House officials with a history in socialist activism. And by "bourgeois lifestylers", I think you might mean middle-class univeristy activists; like Lenin.

Your ranks aren't filled with anyone. Let alone the future rulers of the country.

Most people at protests today have no history of Socialist Activism, nor will they ever.

However, going off your statement, I can name people like Stuart Brand, Mark Yudof, Tom Hayden, Regis Debray, and Bill Ayers. These were just the easily available examples.

Also, I would argue that anyone who willingly participates in the fee based education system is not our friend. This is a system designed specifically to destroy the proletariat and further the gap between oppressor and oppressed. Those who graduate to the upper echelons of this system, the professors, the university presidents and the boards of directors are among the most bitter and ruthless foes of the working class.

[ellipsis]

However, going off your statement, I can name people like Stuart Brand, Mark Yudof, Tom Hayden, Regis Debray, and Bill Ayers. These were just the easily available examples.
Bill Ayers is not a CEO nor does he even work in government, let alone the white house.


Also, I would argue that anyone who willingly participates in the fee based education system is not our friend. This is a system designed specifically to destroy the proletariat and further the gap between oppressor and oppressed. Those who graduate to the upper echelons of this system, the professors, the university presidents and the boards of directors are among the most bitter and ruthless foes of the working class.Like Marx, Hegel, pretty much every philosopher or thinker that comprise the school of Marxism, Che Guevara, Angela Davis, me, and many more of the +18 crowd of this board? We are all class enemies and not friends
of the working class? Care to explain your reasoning? Provide evidence? Assuming it isn't based on baseless wholesale denouncement of higher education? You know I started a Denounce What You Want thread in chit-chat for just those sort of things.

[leninpuncher]

Most people at protests today have no history of Socialist Activism, nor will they ever.

However, going off your statement, I can name people like Stuart Brand, Mark Yudof, Tom Hayden, Regis Debray, and Bill Ayers. These were just the easily available examples.

Also, I would argue that anyone who willingly participates in the fee based education system is not our friend. This is a system designed specifically to destroy the proletariat and further the gap between oppressor and oppressed. Those who graduate to the upper echelons of this system, the professors, the university presidents and the boards of directors are among the most bitter and ruthless foes of the working class.

If they're at protests, then that alone shows a history of socialist activism.

Bill Ayers? Are you serious? He's a university professor, and on occasion meets with politicians to encourage some education reform. He isn't bourgeois, what's more he's still involved in activism. Tom Hayden, again, worked for reform in some areas, still engaged in activism. Stewart Brand is sort of the same story.

If you think these people are capitalist oppressors; you've got some problems.

Karl Marx is among the most bitter and ruthless foes of the working class? Lenin?

[cyu]

so was that a "yes?" simple answer instead of long-winded vagueness, please.

The point of direct action / civil disobedience is not violence. The point is to get the message out. Avoid violence if you can, but if you can't because you have to use force to defend yourself and each other, then not only is it justified, but it's also easy to justify to the general population.

[cyu]

I would think that a temporary seizure of a tv/radio station to broadcast a prerecorded message would be a better approach than what you were describing


Actually, that's not so different from what I'm describing at all - and I think APPO generally had the right idea. Again the steps below from http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1615486&postcount=99 could either be done strictly with non-violence, but they could also be done in other ways, for example, with self defence.

1. Take some event in which you feel the local media is only reporting the views of the ruling class (maybe when a strike happens, maybe when there's a protest, maybe there's some event the media totally omits). Organize a largish group of activists to simply walk into your local news room, bring a list of the points you want to make, then stand in front of the camera while they are trying to film and make your points - keep doing it until the points you are making are getting fair play in the local media.

2. Repeat step 1 until it's fairly common. Then move on to a schedule in which activists are regularly assuming democratic control of your local media outlet for maybe 1 day a week, 1 week a month, etc.

3. As step 2 becomes fairly common, move on to advocate full employee democracy and community democracy for the policies and governance of your local media.

...so what does this have to do with weapons? Well, when carrying out these activities, capitalists may send in their minions to try to stop you. So you have some options:

1. Let yourself get beaten
2. Let yourself be arrested
3. Run away
4. Defend yourself with your weapons
5. Take their weapons before they can be used against you
6. Arrest them before you even begin the steps above
7. Incapacitate them before you even begin the steps above
8. Kill them before you even begin the steps above

Personally, I'm in favor of #4.

[Uncle Ho]

Bill Ayers is not a CEO nor does he even work in government, let alone the white house.

He does, however, work in an industry which exists to ensure the continued oppression of the Proletariat.


Like Marx, Hegel, pretty much every philosopher or thinker that comprise the school of Marxism, Che Guevara, Angela Davis, me, and many more of the +18 crowd of this board? We are all class enemies and not friends
of the working class? Care to explain your reasoning? Provide evidence? Assuming it isn't based on baseless wholesale denouncement of higher education? You know I started a Denounce What You Want thread in chit-chat for just those sort of things.The problem is not higher education, the problem is that our system of obtaining such is designed to be discriminatory, divide the working class and further the gap between the proles and the bourgeoisie.

If education was free to all (And this includes technical schools, which would give you a conventional and vocational education), as it should be, I would have no problems with it. By attending one of these fee-based institutions, you are at best being played and at worst are actively working towards destroying working class solidarity.

I cannot count the number of times college graduates have thought themselves superior to me and my ilk simply because I did not attend a university.This needs to stop, firstly because we need more workers and less money counters, and secondly because it is another system which keeps us all divided.


If they're at protests, then that alone shows a history of socialist activism.

No, it does not. Not all the people at protests are Socialists, and not all the Socialists at protests are engaged in anything beyond twitter.


Bill Ayers? Are you serious? He's a university professor, and on occasion meets with politicians to encourage some education reform. He isn't bourgeois, what's more he's still involved in activism. He assists in the division and destruction of the working class through his university job, as this is what our education system is designed to do.


Tom Hayden, again, worked for reform in some areas, still engaged in activism. He is also a major investor in many television networks, which act as organs of propaganda for the bourgeoisie.


Stewart Brand is sort of the same story.Stewart Brand is the co-founder of an organization called the Global Business Network, which is chock full of speculators, government officials and big business vampires. This organization has "advised" such companies as Royal Dutch Shell and DeBeers. They also represent many stock exchanges and mercenary organizations.

Here's a good article on them, since you obviously don't know who they are.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.11/gbn.html?pg=1&topic=/


If you think these people are capitalist oppressors; you've got some problems.If you don't think these men are our oppressors, you are beyond saving, I'm afraid.

[ellipsis]

I cannot count the number of times college graduates have thought themselves superior to me and my ilk simply because I did not attend a university.This needs to stop, firstly because we need more workers and less money counters, and secondly because it is another system which keeps us all divided.

That should not be so. But what also needs to stop are people who cannot conceive of how a college degree/education could possibly help somebody in their activist pursuits. I have a college degree and I work manual labor and service industry jobs. The two categories are not mutually exclusive.

I am still waiting to hear your reasoning on why university systems are specially designed to divide the working class. Also you denouncing everybody who does not agree with your choice of tactics is pretty divisive.

Cyu- why did you repost that same text about taking about tv stations? I read it the first time and responded to it then, as did the other posters.

[Uncle Ho]

That should not be so. But what also needs to stop are people who cannot conceive of how a college degree/education could possibly help somebody in their activist pursuits. I have a college degree and I work manual labor and service industry jobs. The two categories are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, and the two should not be exclusive, but the problem is that people generally attend college so they can have a nice cushy job counting master's money or selling his baubles.

The technical schools and colleges should be merged into one, all tradespeople should get a college education, and all college students should learn a trade. Then, not only will our nation be enriched with real useful skills, but we will be united.


I am still waiting to hear your reasoning on why university systems are specially designed to divide the working class. Also you denouncing everybody who does not agree with your choice of tactics is pretty divisive.It's quite simple. The oppressed cannot afford to go to college, and even if they could, their schools are bad enough to make sure they don't get in. Everyone seeks out the best school so they can get a more "prestigious" job, the proverbial house negro for massa.

This creates a system where the poor are not allowed a higher education equivalent to that of the oppressor class, which furthers the divide between the two and ensures further compliance. Then there's the problem of Colleges teaching people how to do little else but serve their grand and benevolent master, counting his money, filling out his papers and thinking of new slogans for his goods that no one needs.

Education is important, but remember, comrade, that it is merely privilege (And can, in fact, be a tool of oppression) extended unless open to all. One of the threads that unites all oppressive societies together is restricting education. If you keep the Proles ignorant, they will not fight back.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

They may not, but their rifles have all the say in the world.

Having the ability to kill doesn't make it more likely that people will listen to you.

You sound like a teabagger who thinks people are going to suddenly stop and respect you for pulling out a gun at a protest...

I'm not sure what you think would happen after that in your fantasy world, but I'm 99.9% sure you would be buried 6 feet under not long after. What a glorious revolution.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Uncle Ho is a troll.

[bcbm]

The point of direct action / civil disobedience is not violence. The point is to get the message out. Avoid violence if you can, but if you can't because you have to use force to defend yourself and each other, then not only is it justified, but it's also easy to justify to the general population.

yeah i've been around the block a few times, i don't need a lecture. i was asking a clarifying question.

[ellipsis]

The point of direct action / civil disobedience is not violence. The point is to get the message out. Avoid violence if you can, but if you can't because you have to use force to defend yourself and each other, then not only is it justified, but it's also easy to justify to the general population.
South American Urban Guerrilla groups argued that an action should speak for itself, that the message be clear without any explanation. They also saw that unnecessary violence is bad for the cause.

[cyu]

why did you repost that same text about taking about tv stations? I read it the first time and responded to it then

You said "a temporary seizure of a tv/radio station to broadcast a prerecorded message would be a better approach" and that is pretty much exactly what I was describing in step 1. Ultimately my goal is of course permanent democratic control, but that doesn't mean your preferred tactic is much different from step 1 of mine.


South American Urban Guerrilla groups argued that an action should speak for itself, that the message be clear without any explanation. They also saw that unnecessary violence is bad for the cause.

Anarchists are all about direct action, of course, but I'd advocate a diversity of tactics. If you limit yourself to either just actions or just words, then I see it as an intentional attempt to cripple yourself.

[Uncle Ho]

Having the ability to kill doesn't make it more likely that people will listen to you.

It does, however, make it far more likely that the oppressor class will listen to you.


You sound like a teabagger who thinks people are going to suddenly stop and respect you for pulling out a gun at a protest...

I would not be foolish to pull a gun at a protest.

Now, 10,000 guns, on the other hand...


I'm not sure what you think would happen after that in your fantasy world, but I'm 99.9% sure you would be buried 6 feet under not long after. What a glorious revolution.

Far more glorious (And likely to succeed) than a bunch of teenage anarchists smashing windows and waving signs.

Really, though, that's not saying much, as these summit hopping lifestylers have no chance of success whatsoever and do nothing but make themselves and the left in general look increasingly pathetic every time they show up.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I would not be foolish to pull a gun at a protest.

Now, 10,000 guns, on the other hand...

You'd need a really big hand to hold that many guns.

[jaffe]

I would like to invite Uncle Ho to come Europe once to walk frontrow in a summit hopping punkrock lifestyle black bloc demonstration to show how hardmen he is IRL.

[cyu]

I would think that a temporary seizure of a tv/radio station to broadcast a prerecorded message

Related excerpt from Greece: http://libcom.org/news/attacks-against-police-athens-defiance-pms-plea-calm-04122009

"50 radicals occupied the TV station of the local channel of Ioannina city during its main news broadcast. The radicals left after the channel broadcasted a 20 minute video on the December Uprising."

[ellipsis]

Guns? Police shoot outs?

[cyu]

Guns? Police shoot outs?


If you're referring to my post about Greece - no, I haven't heard any evidence of those activists taking guns with them into the TV station.

However, assuming democratic control of the media and non-violence / self-defense are orthogonal issues.

You can assume democratic control either with non-violence, or with self-defense, or with any number of other unrelated things, like heavy metal music or a people wearing green hats.

The point is that, yes, I support assuming democratic control of the media. If you can do it with just non-violence, then more power to you. If that doesn't work for you, then I think being able to use self-defense would give you much greater chances for success, especially when it comes to an emergency situation like what's happening in Honduras.

[ellipsis]

The point is that, yes, I support assuming democratic control of the media. If you can do it with just non-violence, then more power to you. If that doesn't work for you, then I think being able to use self-defense would give you much greater chances for success, especially when it comes to an emergency situation like what's happening in Honduras.
When it is time for violence then it means that there are revolutionary conditions, and then all rules are null and void. But I think we are in agreement for the most part.