Just how left wing are Hapoel Tel Aviv Fans?

[Holden Caulfield]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/Hapoel_Tel_Aviv_New_Logo.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/Hapoel_Tel_Aviv_New_Logo.png)

Are they zionists?

[Wanted Man]

Question 1: very much.
Question 2: no, as far as I know.

Check out: http://ultrashapoel.com/lenglish/

Also, search for "Hapoel" on Revleft for previous posts on them. They are always listed among the teams with large amounts of left-wing and anti-fascist fans.

A pic from a few years ago:

http://ultrashapoel.com/gallery/albums/hta_mta1-0/5_G.sized.jpg

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=34032&highlight=telaviv

[F9]

Zionists? hell no.
They are our official bros:cool: some of them came down here too, i have seen some of them, but sadly didnt had the chance to talk with them. They made a public announce against joinning the military, and they refused joinning as a group, and that means problems with the law but they keep the fighting on, their emblem contains the hammersickle and its connection with communism is obvious, also hapoel in their language means worker.
Yeah a great group basically:)

[Holden Caulfield]

I knew they were on the left, but I wondered what the left was in Israel thesedays, what with the state of their trade unions and such

[An archist]

Just browsing their photo gallery, they seem pretty leftwing indeed.

http://ultrashapoel.com/gallery/albums/album84/5825_G.jpg

http://ultrashapoel.com/gallery/albums/album96/Img_0202.sized.jpg

[9]

^The "left" in Israel is generally not anti-Zionist; as far as I am aware there are very few anti-Zionists in Israel, and most organizations there claiming to be Marxist, communist, socialist, whatever, have from the very beginning been Zionists. The hammer and sickle and antifa etc. is by no means an indication of anti-Zionism in Israel, but I know nothing about sports, let alone this particular case, so who knows.

[Edelweiss]

^The "left" in Israel is generally not anti-Zionist; as far as I am aware there are very few anti-Zionists in Israel, and most organizations there claiming to be Marxist, communist, socialist, whatever, have from the very beginning been Zionists. The hammer and sickle and antifa etc. is by no means an indication of anti-Zionism in Israel, but I know nothing about sports, let alone this particular case, so who knows.

nevertheless I can guarantee you that Hapeol fans are 100% anti-Zionist.

[Yehuda Stern]

Well, I can guarantee you that you are 100% ignorant about all things Israeli. We shouldn't be surprised, as you have proven to be as much in the past regarding this Israel that you defend so much. It pays to be ignorant, though, when you defend such an indefensible state.

The site linked to is not the official site of Hapoel Tel Aviv. This is (http://www.hapoelta-fc.co.il/DefaultEng.asp). Ultras is apparently a group of radical left fans of HTLV, and good for them, but most of the fans of the group are the same right-wing, ultra-racist scum that usually frequent soccer games. I actually have the displeasure of meeting those types regularly when they're on their way to games.

I'm sometimes shocked by the inventions and myths people tell about some hidden, huge radical left base in Israel, just waiting to be discovered. If there were so many anti-fascist leftists in Israel, don't you think you would have a better indication of it than some placards at a soccer game?

[F9]

Please dont turn this thread into another shitstorm, and actually Holden i will not allow it this to happen, especially here.

Yehuda i will try to get some comrades from UH to post a response on your post, and have their voice heard too.

[Holden Caulfield]

nevertheless I can guarantee you that Hapeol fans are 100% anti-Zionist.

define zionist for me please.
I am not sure you know what it means.

I know refuseniks who are zionists, rejection of Israels brutality does not mean one is not a zionist. the support of an ethnically pure Jewish state 'for self defence' (of a race) is what makes one a zionist.

are hapoel fans anti-zionist?

[Holden Caulfield]

It appears many admins don't get 'it'.
I asked if Haopel fans were zionists, I know they are on the left but I asked if they were zionist.

I know that kibbutz and israeli trade unions are 'on the left' but are still zionist. I know refuseniks are 'on the left' but are zionists.

I want to know if Hapoel fans are zionist.
Its not controversial, it would be like asking if Celtic fans are unionist.
Nothing more nothing less.

[ls]

It appears many admins don't get 'it'.
I asked if Haopel fans were zionists, I know they are on the left but I asked if they were zionist.

I know that kibbutz and israeli trade unions are 'on the left' but are still zionist. I know refuseniks are 'on the left' but are zionists.

I want to know if Hapoel fans are zionist.
Its not controversial, it would be like asking if Celtic fans are unionist.
Nothing more nothing less.

There are some contrasting opinions, the JC has this on them: http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/24519/celtic-reject-disgraceful-protest-tel-aviv-match.

The scottish psc has an article too: http://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3005:hapoel-tel-aviv-the-left-wing-of-ethnic-cleansing-and-genocide&catid=375:israeli-football&Itemid=200277.

In order to get a full view, you are probably best off asking Hapoel Tel Aviv-ers themselves, rather than people on revleft. The above in no way represents my own opinion because quite simply, I don't know anything about HTA at all. It looks like there may be some anti-zionists in there, but to blanketly say that clubs' fanbases are either all one way or the other, with a couple of exceptions, seems like a silly idea.

[Wanted Man]

I did not know all of that. I wonder how they would respond to that. I'll certainly be more careful about what I say, next time people ask me about this.

[Yehuda Stern]

Yehuda i will try to get some comrades from UH to post a response on your post, and have their voice heard too.

You go do that. I'll still be here.

[Wanted Man]

What people seem to be forgetting is that it's impossible to generalise almost any club in general, nevermind its fans. What seems most likely in Hapoel's case (just like with other clubs with a "left" image) is that most people on the stands just go there to see the football, and then there is the Ultras group which, in this case, is connected with anti-fascist fans in other countries. And even of the Ultras, you can't guarantee the political positions held by all their members. So they are usually a minority.

Most of Hapoel's fanbase probably comes from a labour zionist background, or are "apolitical" (i.e. passively supportive of their government), with the Ultras being mostly mainstream left, perhaps anti-fascist, with only a minority being openly anti-zionist. Just like how only a minority of all the other "left" clubs are actually "left" as we would understand the term. It only makes sense. After all, if tens of thousands of people in one city were class-conscious communists or whatever, we would be hearing a lot more of it than just some flags on a terrace. :rolleyes:

Of course, the ones that do try to organise an anti-fascist and left movement should be commended, and if people here identify with the clubs because of that, that's fine. I can sympathise with that. Though I can't help but think that some western leftists just want a literal "team" to "root for" in the absence of meaningful activity in their own lives. ;) I've been thinking about that kind of thing lately, and I wonder if that is really a good mentality to have. Even if the general character of a club is more left-leaning, I don't think they deserve the gushing support from leftists just for not being racist towards Palestinians or whatever.

Anyway, I've been reading some of the discussions on the Green Brigade forum about this (because of the action at Celtic vs Hapoel that ls's links are about), and I came across this:


hello I'm Hapoel fan, as an anti-zionist socialist I must say i agree with 90% of what have been said by the SPSC here. i just want to clarify some things about Hapoel and it's fans, Hapoel Tel Aviv in the past was a zionist club and took part (most of it's fans and players) in the ethnic cleansing of 48. since the mid 70's Hapoel became less and less political and became more associated with Yafo, Bat-Yam and holon working class southern suburbans of Tel Aviv. The only political thing that exsitance today in the club is it's nonracist behavior toward the Palestinian minority in Israel, since the late 70's Hapoel always had Palestinian players in the club, what made us the most popular team in the Palestinian community in Israel, today 5 Palestinians Israeli citizens play for Hapoel (including the captain Walid Badir). At the last few years some of Hapoel's hardcore fans try to identify themseves as antifa few of the are real radical leftists, some of them are zionist leftists(not those of the 40's) and most of them just find it as a cool thing to associate themself with a worldwide anti authority violence organization.

sorry for my bad English, and hope you understood my point
in spite of that.
Rony
http://greenbrigade.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=30420
(need to be logged in)

Of course, it's just a forum post, but it would make sense if this is the reality.

Edit: some other posts from Celtic fans on that forum, with different perspectives. Perhaps interesting so that people won't have to register there and search for it. Remember that it's just forum posts, anyone can post on a forum:


at the celtic hapoel game a hapoel supporter was given a palestine flag he then angrily ripped it up.

In another situation with a different hapoel fan i heard one of the palestine activist speek to a hapoel fan who said palestine doesn't exist. The palestinian activist replied saying do you know ariel sharon? The hapoel fan said "yes, he's a good man." I then heard the palestinian activist say, you know ariel sharon has an autobiography called warrior and in this book he states "i was born in palestine" The hapoel fan walked away in a huff.

I mean you just need to look at the history of ariel sharon and see the massacres he's responsible for.

i remember reading on the discussion board that hapoel fans might fly palestine flags as well as israeli flags in solidarity however i've never seen hapoel fans carry palestiniaqn flags. Even watching videos of them cheering at other away european games they fly the israeli flag only.


sorry dude but i'm calling bullshit, as one of the hapoel fans kind of called me over ( i presume he was in UH as he talked about the group being at the st pauli football tournament) and as i walked across, with my palestine flag in hand, I was greated by smiles. after talking to the presumable member for a few minutes, he understood why i had it and we just in general chatted. after shaking hands with the lad, i looked over and saw the police who could only be described as shocked. :)

Sorry if what you say is true but after i went right over and talked to them, I highly doubt what you say is true >:(


On the issue of Hapoel fans being supportive of the palestinians. Im sure some are but any of the one's I met were staunch supporters of their governments actions in Gaza and West Bank. I met 3 on my way into parkhead and after assuring them that we weren't protesting against them but their government and ambassador, defending their governments actions they dismissively told me "you know nothing about it, go there for yourself and you'll find out the truth". To which of course I replied "I've been there mate and believe me I know the truth, I've seen it and felt it". They'd no answer except to walk off saying "maybe some day when there's democracy...".
At janefield street east another group of Hapoel fans appeared, 1 draped in an israeli flag and were very aggressive, loud and abusive to people handing out the palestinian flags. Notably more aggressive when arguing with the women, flashbacks to these same kind of characters in the settlements in hebron. :D

Im not trying to tar all the fans with 1 brush, there's plenty of ;) amongst the celtic support as well. Its great to see that there are fans like yourself Rony who know the shameful parts of your clubs history as well as the better. I just wonder how many of the ultras acknowledge this also?
Would be great to see some healthy debate on this issue and hopefully the fanst affiliated to Antifa will be prepared to take a stronger stance against their governments actions.

Also, to press home the point about not generalising "left" football clubs, the same goes for Celtic:


Sad to report that collectors were abused by 'Celtic fans' tonight.

A family, one member just back from 6 months in Palestine, offered to do a collection up at the park. The mother was to fuck off back to Israel and the girlfriend was told to Fuck off ya Paki bastard. He was arrested. I find it so sad that the police ended up having to protect charity collectors FROM CELTIC FANS!!!!! ;)


That is fucking shocking. I saw some people ripping up Palestine flags and saying things like "Great, we can get rid of these clowns with Palestine flags after this game, we can forget all about Israel."...Pricks. I was talking to a few Hapoel supporters walking down the Gallowgate and they we very much in support of Palestine....Really great guys aswell. There is no need to abuse the charity collectors.....Fair enough if they don't agree with Palestine etc then don't take a flag. There is too many pricks that are going to CP these days.

EDIT: some of the winking smileys should actually be a smiley jerking off, which we unfortunately don't have on Revleft: http://www.thehuddleboard.com/hb/images/smilies/jerkit.gif

EDIT2: and another Celtic fan on that forum made a point that I really agree with, and was trying to get across before:


Hello Rony.
You have summed up Hapoel fans to me in your short post. Surely you don't expect to be commended because you are not racist towards your fellow countymen. How can anyone at Hapoel pretend to be Antifa if they don't take a stand against their own fascist government? But like you say, they probably do it because it's the cool thing to do. Being antifa is not about being cool, it's about being anti-fascist, quiet simple. Problem is that many people around the globe pretend they are antifa but in reality it is probably because it's cool.

[Tifosi]

I was talking to a UH lad on a Celtic forum. The guy said that he and a few other's in UH feel there is a need for a Jewish state in todays world just like there is a "need" for a German state or a Chinese State. Like me I'm sure there is a few of you on here that don't buy that. He said that UH DO NOT SUPPORT the ruling classes in Israel and the things the Israeli state doe's. He went on to say that the world would be a better place without nations. You can make your own mind up on them but they are anti-fascist for sure and that is what matters to me.

But you asked "Just how left wing are Hapoel Tel Aviv Fans?". That will be imposable to answer as just like every other club in the world you will get fascist fans, anti-fascist fans and people that just want to watch a game of football. You should of asked Just how left wing are Hapoel Tel Aviv ultras groups if you wanted a true answer

[F9]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/21/israel-football-hapoel-ultras

As in England and throughout Europe, most Israeli football teams have a hardcore element to their support base, and there are regular clashes between rival hooligan firms during every season. Betar Jerusalem's La Familia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/7362791.stm) are the most notorious (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3172173,00.html) of these crews, thanks to their fiercely anti-Arab politics and their utter contempt for anyone they deem traitors to the nationalist cause.
Betar have been dogged by the controversial behaviour of La Familia for years, with the team forced to play games behind closed doors (http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL0886973720071108) after displays of particularly unconscionable behaviour by their fans, and the club has been docked points (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=642309&cc=4716) for proving unable to rein in its most wayward supporters. However – as I discovered last week at Hapoel Tel Aviv (http://www.hapoelta-fc.co.il/DefaultEng.asp)'s Uefa Cup clash with Hamburg – not all football firms are by definition allied to the hard right, neither are they all enslaved to racially divisive ideologies.
An hour before kick-off, several prominent faces from the Hapoel Ultras crew braved the pouring rain to solicit contributions for a local shelter for African refugees (http://www.ardc-israel.org/en/about/inthenews), the African Refugee Development Centre (ARDC). They stood in front of a huge banner which they'd tied to the stadium railings, bearing a seemingly incongruous message: "Hapoel Ultras – donation point", and as the clock ticked down to kick-off, the gifts poured in from fellow Ultras.
The call had gone out on Ultras message boards earlier in the week, exhorting fellow fans to bring whatever food or clothes they could to alleviate the severe shortages experienced by the refugee community over recent weeks. This was the second time this season that the Ultras had rallied round for the refugees, and those taking part saw it as an essential part of their collective duties as Hapoel fans.
"Hapoel means workers", explained one supporter, decked out in a garish red Ultras hoodie, a scarf bearing the legend "Workers of the world unite" hanging from his neck. "We're left wing, which means we don't hate Arabs – we want peace with them". Inside the stadium, supporters regularly hold banners declaring "Love Hapoel – hate racism" (http://www.zix.co.il/images/z-1501391272.jpg), and at a recent match hoisted a particularly poignant flag asking "Who here isn't a refugee?"
Another fan spits at the mention of APOEL Nicosia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APOEL_F.C.), a Cypriot team whose acronym bears no connection to the Hebrew word Hapoel. "We hate them, because they're all fascists," he tells me. "Their fans hold banners with swastikas on, and they give sieg heils at the ground. We're part of Antifa, which is why we despise them."
Antifa (http://www.antifa.net/joomla/) is a global network of militant anti-fascists to whom many left-leaning football supporters pledge allegiance, including dozens of clubs across Europe. As a result, respective football firms forge close ties with one another, as was evidenced at Hapoel's Bloomfield stadium where Hapoel fans sported club shirts of FC St Pauli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_St._Pauli#Supporters), Manchester United, and other Antifa-linked teams. Hapoel Ultras are also part of the Alerta Network (http://nomattimen.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/alerta-network/), a collection of football fans committed to fighting xenophobia on the terraces, who embody the true spirit of the Kick Racism out of Football (http://www.kickitout.org/) campaign run by the English FA and its peers around Europe.
Nic Schlagman (http://www.ardc-israel.org/en/about/teamandboard) of the ARDC, who co-ordinated the fundraising campaign with the Hapoel Ultras, was overwhelmed by the response from the fans. "We continue to be amazed by the number of people from all corners of the Tel Aviv community who come forward to support our humanitarian work," he said.

This is our second direct collaboration with the Ultras, who have been raising awareness and giving support to this cause for the last five years. Initially it was a very big surprise to be receiving support from what many would perceive to be a group of fans more interested in partisanship and violence than the support of minority causes and social activism. However, their actions show once again what a surprising and remarkable country Israel is, and in particular Tel Aviv society.
With six full containers of food donated by the time the game began, it was clear that the Ultras had milked their extensive list of connections for all they were worth, and all that was left was for the ARDC workers to distribute the donations amongst the refugee community, and for the supporters to cheer on their team inside the ground. A 1-0 win over Hamburg secured Hapoel top spot in their group, and the Ultras will now travel to Russia (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1260930898522&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) for the next round of the cup, where rightwing crews of football fans are notorious for their violent behaviour.
However, according to Antifa and Alerta, leftwing firms are on the up across Europe, and they take heart from the strong links forged between fans with every passing year. Actions such as that of Hapoel's Ultras for the African refugees, and the constant anti-racist campaigning undertaken by teams around Europe, must be applauded and encouraged in order for those on the far right to see that their poisonous message won't go unchallenged, either on the terraces or in the streets. Kicking racism out of football completely is a mammoth task, but it seems that the fans on the left are relishing the challenge to do just that.


(bolding underlinning etc mine job:D)