Situation for workers in other nations....

[RadioRaheem84]

Thinking about making the big move abroad after I am finished with all of my schooling. How is the situation for workers in other nations like UK, Canada, Australia, or even nations in the EU? I would try to work for a firm in Europe and then seek citizenship. Is this possible? I just don't see the situation in the US getting any better and see an even stronger conservative force emerging. Where do you guys recommend moving to? I know there is no real socialist nation on earth so what would be a good equivalent.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

France for sure!

Thats if you want some place more radical. If you want some "nice" left wing place where its much more plesant and easier to get along in life than America, I guess i'd say Norway or Sweden?

[RadioRaheem84]

I was thinking France. Is it really much more worker friendly than in the US?

[Patchd]

Move wherever you want to move to, not because it has a strong workers' movement. The point is to agitate and help build the workers' movement wherever you are in the world.

[MarxSchmarx]

There is no first world country where the bourgeois state is not firmly entrenched. It is no better in Europe or Australia than America, and from the perspective of radicals, in some cases worse. For instance racism in Europe and Australia is at a whole different level than in America.

Also, I suspect many more in America "get it" that the system is rigged against them. Especially now, this is probably true because they don't have the sort of cushions that Scandinavia has for regular people.

Canada you can probably immigrate to pretty easily if you learn French and have some work experience and a university degree. But I suspect it will only be marginally easier to organize in Canada, and many of the same problems (and sometimes unions) creep up there again and again.

If you are in America or Canada, there are many localities/regions where there are militant unions. Aside from the big urban centers like Los Angeles, New York, and San Francisco, there are also still surprisingly radical unions in places in Appalachia and the rural northwest.

Indeed, the national situation matters less than the people you immediately surround yourself with. If you are an American, it will be much much easier to organize around other Americans or Canadians than any Europeans.

[cyu]

Some random stats:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_development_index
Norway 0.971 (▲ 1)
Australia 0.970 (▲ 2)
Iceland 0.969 (▼ 2)
Canada 0.966 (▼ 1)
Ireland 0.965 (▬)
Netherlands 0.964 (▬)
Sweden 0.963 (▬)
France 0.961 (▲ 3)
Switzerland 0.960 (▬)
Japan 0.960 (▬)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
Denmark 8.1 4.3 24.7 12.0 2000 est. 24 2005 -
Japan 4.5 3.4 24.9 4.5 1993 38.1 2002 -
Sweden 6.2 4 25 6.2 2000 23 2005 -
Czech Republic 5.2 3.5 25.4 5.2 1996 26 2005 -
Slovakia 6.7 4 25.8 6.7 1996 26 2005 -
Norway 6.1 3.9 25.8 6.0 2000 28 2005 -
Bosnia and Herzegovina 5.4 3.8 26.2 5.5 2001 26.2 2001 -
Finland 5.6 3.8 26.9 5.7 2000 26 2005 -
Hungary 5.5 3.8 26.9 5.6 2002 28 2005 -
Ukraine 5.9 4.1 28.1 7.6 2006 31 2006 -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index
1 Denmark 0.00 3.50 2.00 5.00 0.50 0.50 1.00 3.00
1 Finland 0.00 2.00 1.50 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50
1 Ireland 0.00 2.00 2.00 0.50 0.50 0.50 2.83 1.00
1 Norway 0.00 1.50 0.75 2.00 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50
1 Sweden 0.00 3.00 1.50 4.00 2.00 2.00 1.50 1.50
6 Estonia 0.50 2.00 1.00 2.00 1.50 2.00 2.50
7 Netherlands 1.00 4.00 3.50 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50
7 Switzerland 1.00 3.00 3.00 2.50 0.50 0.50 2.50 4.25
9 Iceland 2.00 1.50 0.75 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50 0.50
10 Lithuania 2.25 4.00 7.00 6.50 4.50 3.00 2.83

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_index
1 Sweden 9.88 Full democracy
2 Norway 9.68 Full democracy
3 Iceland 9.65 Full democracy
4 Netherlands 9.53 Full democracy
5 Denmark 9.52 Full democracy
6 Finland 9.25 Full democracy
7 New Zealand 9.19 Full democracy
8 Switzerland 9.15 Full democracy
9 Luxembourg 9.10 Full democracy
10 Australia 9.09 Full democracy

[RadioRaheem84]

Also, I suspect many more in America "get it" that the system is rigged against them. Especially now, this is probably true because they don't have the sort of cushions that Scandinavia has for regular people.
"Getting it" in America is becoming a more hysterical right wing person. The masses in this country know they're being screwed over but they're turning their anger and frustration into right wing hysteria. Socialism has become a smear word for anyone thinking about challenging the system. One doesn't even have to think of a counter argument, all they have to do is say, "that sounds like socialism" and the debate is pretty much over.


For instance racism in Europe and Australia is at a whole different level than in America.
How so?

[AnthArmo]

How so?


I can't really speak about Europe. But there most certainly is Racism in Australia. The Right always has a defining feature in every country. In the U.S its support for extreme capitalism. In Australia the Right is defined by racism and xenophobia.

Australian racism is more the sort of "simmering under the surface" type of thing. But it comes out. The Cronella riots is one example of an "explosion" of racism. And the current bashing of Indian students is another.

There is also a strong "Jingoism" being used by a lot of racist youths. its difficult to put into words. But imagine your an immigrant having recently immigrated to Australia, to be met with half-naked beach-goers who drape and clothe themselves with the Australian flag. Its thinly vieled racism saying "we're Australian and your not!"

There are other things too. For example, in the U.S, there was an almost unanimous support for the idea of a black man being president. Even the Right in America contend that that is at least one positive coming from Barack Obama. In Australia, the idea of a black man being Prime Minister would probably disgust the majority of the population.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yikes! What is with the jingoism in some of the Anglo-derived cultures? Being of Hispanic-Italian origin and looking very Mediterranean, I've always had the impression that I was never really an American to the Anglo population here. I figured it would be quite different in other parts of the world but it seems like what you're describing is too close to home.

Come to think of it, what strikes me as odd is that this jingoism is very reflective of the lower class in the US while the subtle mild racism I experienced with Europeans and Aussies came from the upper crust.

[btpound]

The grass is always greener in the other workers struggle. I don't think you should abandon the worker's struggle in America. Sure you could move to France or Finland, but what about the workers here? We have the biggest working class in the world, and the highest concentration of wealth in the world. The ground here is ripe for revolutionary struggle. What we need is a revolutionary party and a revolutionary movement, but first we need revolutionaries. Just because it doesn't seem like the movement is making progress today doesn't mean that it can't happen at all, it may even happen soon. If history has taught us anything, it's that the revolutionary movement can sometimes come out of nowhere, like lightning from a clear sky. What about the workers here? Leave them to drown? A revolution here could mean a collapse in the entire world imperialist dynamic.

[RadioRaheem84]

What about the workers here? Leave them to drown? A revolution here could mean a collapse in the entire world imperialist dynamic.

Agreed. But we have a massive workforce that tends to vote against their own interests. What are we supposed to do when a huge portion of the population thinks that socialism equals to 1984? At least the workforce in other nations have a foundational understanding of socialism to some extent.

[MarxSchmarx]

"Getting it" in America is becoming a more hysterical right wing person. The masses in this country know they're being screwed over but they're turning their anger and frustration into right wing hysteria.That is only true for white people, and mostly those from suburban and rural environments. There is hardly a non-white face in all these "tea-party" protests, and very few who live in the major cities.

The urban whites and ethnic minorities in America have long had this frustration. The fact of the matter is that many rural whites are finally coming around, but the left is leaving a real vaccuum.

And you know why? It's because the left is so fractured, impotent, and caught in their own worlds that they cannot speak the language of the lower middle white populations. It is also because the American left has A LOT of people who wish they did not have to agitate in America. During the cold war, the left could legitimately claim government repression. This is no longer the case.



I can't really speak about Europe. But there most certainly is Racism in Australia. The Right always has a defining feature in every country. In the U.S its support for extreme capitalism. In Australia the Right is defined by racism and xenophobia.

Australian racism is more the sort of "simmering under the surface" type of thing. But it comes out. The Cronella riots is one example of an "explosion" of racism. And the current bashing of Indian students is another.

There is also a strong "Jingoism" being used by a lot of racist youths. its difficult to put into words. But imagine your an immigrant having recently immigrated to Australia, to be met with half-naked beach-goers who drape and clothe themselves with the Australian flag. Its thinly vieled racism saying "we're Australian and your not!"

There are other things too. For example, in the U.S, there was an almost unanimous support for the idea of a black man being president. Even the Right in America contend that that is at least one positive coming from Barack Obama. In Australia, the idea of a black man being Prime Minister would probably disgust the majority of the population.The situation in Europe is somewhat similar - xenophobia is a big deal, as is the emphasis on some how the typical "Austrian" or "Irish" being much more exclusive than the "typical American". But also, there is a lot of at least token representations and recognition of minorities in America, for example Martin Luther King day, Japanese American astronauts, there are very, very few really comparable figure in any European country. Also American popular culture is replete with minorities, esp. African Americans. But in Europe, "Minorities" tend to also be racially similar (like Basques in Spain and Germans in Hungary) who suffer discrimination that is currently basically unheard of in America. Europeans are also very, very race conscious. Americans are too, but at least there is a public taboo in America about that sort of thing, and in many jobs people are accustomed to dealing with people of all sorts of ethnic and cultural differences on a daily level.

[btpound]

Agreed. But we have a massive workforce that tends to vote against their own interests. What are we supposed to do when a huge portion of the population thinks that socialism equals to 1984? At least the workforce in other nations have a foundational understanding of socialism to some extent.

That is why they need a revolutionary part to patiently explain their false consciousness to them. If you think you can escape American capitalism by leaving America you are mistaken. It is all pervasive.

[Die Neue Zeit]

There is no first world country where the bourgeois state is not firmly entrenched. It is no better in Europe or Australia than America, and from the perspective of radicals, in some cases worse. For instance racism in Europe and Australia is at a whole different level than in America.

Also, I suspect many more in America "get it" that the system is rigged against them. Especially now, this is probably true because they don't have the sort of cushions that Scandinavia has for regular people.

Canada you can probably immigrate to pretty easily if you learn French and have some work experience and a university degree. But I suspect it will only be marginally easier to organize in Canada, and many of the same problems (and sometimes unions) creep up there again and again.

If you are in America or Canada, there are many localities/regions where there are militant unions. Aside from the big urban centers like Los Angeles, New York, and San Francisco, there are also still surprisingly radical unions in places in Appalachia and the rural northwest.

Indeed, the national situation matters less than the people you immediately surround yourself with. If you are an American, it will be much much easier to organize around other Americans or Canadians than any Europeans.

The UK has the worst anti-union laws, even worse than the US: you literally can't picket.

[the last donut of the night]

The UK has the worst anti-union laws, even worse than the US: you literally can't picket.

Really?

Because here, the Chamber of Commerce is king on this matter.

[Patchd]

Britain's anti-union laws are quite terrible, thanks to the backlash the workers received after the defeat of the miners' strike in '85 under the hands of the Tory and later, Labour governments. With regards to picketing, Britain's had a long history of trade union struggle, and so the laws have developed over time. I believe only 6 people are allowed on each [workplace] entrance at one time on the pickets, secondary picketing and flying pickets are illegal and so is obstructing strike breakers. Certain instances have seen businesses or the state using a court injunction to prevent picketers from picketing on a certain site, or to financially punish picketers for 'breaking the law'.

[MarxSchmarx]

The UK has the worst anti-union laws, even worse than the US: you literally can't picket.


Britain's anti-union laws are quite terrible, thanks to the backlash the workers received after the defeat of the miners' strike in '85 under the hands of the Tory and later, Labour governments. With regards to picketing, Britain's had a long history of trade union struggle, and so the laws have developed over time. I believe only 6 people are allowed on each [workplace] entrance at one time on the pickets, secondary picketing and flying pickets are illegal and so is obstructing strike breakers. Certain instances have seen businesses or the state using a court injunction to prevent picketers from picketing on a certain site, or to financially punish picketers for 'breaking the law'.


Admittedly I hadn't realized how seriously the situation had deteriorated. My impression was always that the local constabulary had considerable discretion in which laws to enforce, and consequently the situation was in a bit of flux. Wouldn't those prosecuted have a case in the European courts?