Will Cuba Return to Neo Colonial capitalism after Comrade Fidel Dies

[Bloody Kalashnikov]

The love and respect we feel for comrade castro and the revolution is huge and great, but will Cuba return to capitalism after He dies.
The Bourgeois say yes yes yes, the likes of fox news the BBC and Sky say this will eventually happen, and that raul is more "Democratic" than fidel.
But Raul seems more of a Marxist Leninist to me than Fidel ever did, raul and che were the revolutions first Red radicals.
Che and Raul invited the Communist party into the july movement and raul was so fiercely anti american that him and his guerrillas under his command kidnapped 100 American workers from an American owned company in Cuba that was collectivised and raul was planning to kill them unless America stopped its ariel bombings, fidel later verbally pounded raul for this.
I have no reason to think raul will sell cuba out do i?.
sure he has less charisma than fidel, but who dosent.
What do you think Comrades

[Vendetta]

If Cuba's political system depended on one man not dying, it was not worth defending in the first place.

[RedAnarchist]

I know the OP has been banned, but using "He" for Fidel as if he were a god is just laughable. He's a human being like the rest of us.

Anyway, I think the OP's view of Fidel is far too idealistic and it's amounting almost to hero worship. I doubt that Cuba will change overnight when Fidel dies, but if change does happen, the US will certainly be helping it along.

[Vendetta]

I know the OP has been banned

Oh, didn't notice that.:blushing:

[ComradeMan]

I would be sad to see the Cuban Revolution fail, on the other hand I do not know what El Che would think if he saw the state that Cuba is in today. It makes me sick how certain factions seem to delight with glee at the demise of Fidel and the sufferings of Cuba, usually oblivious to the dirty tricks that have been done- in denial about the ILLEGAL blockade etc. Nevertheless, the Cuban situation is far from perfect and perhaps many occasions have also been squandered too. I have a fondness for Fidel, his sense of humour and his ability to say no to the US et al, but this does make him a model leader or Cuba a model society either.

[proudcomrade]

I would be sad to see the Cuban Revolution fail, on the other hand I do not know what El Che would think if he saw the state that Cuba is in today.

The old warmonger would probably love it. Especially the hundreds and hundreds of jails filled with "counterrevolutionaries" rotting there for having bought an illegal slice of cheese during the most recent wave of starvation.


It makes me sick how certain factions seem to delight with glee at the demise of Fidel and the sufferings of Cuba, usually oblivious to the dirty tricks that have been done- in denial about the ILLEGAL blockade etc.

It makes me even sicker when so many comrades remain unaware of all of Cagastro's illegal dirty tricks, half a century of them.



Nevertheless, the Cuban situation is far from perfect

You can say that again. A dictatorship posing under the guise of a revolutionary socialist state controlled by the proletariat, is about as imperfect as it gets.


and perhaps many occasions have also been squandered too. I have a fondness for Fidel, his sense of humour and his ability to say no to the US et al, but this does make him a model leader or Cuba a model society either

He is taking you in. Sociopaths with charismatic personalities are notorious for their uncanny gift at that.

[Madvillainy]

The problem is not the rider but the horse :
http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2008/apr/castro-quits

[The Idler]

The experience of state capitalist regimes is there is little working class resistance to the transition to capitalism.

[punisa]

It makes me even sicker when so many comrades remain unaware of all of Cagastro's illegal dirty tricks, half a century of them.

And you call yourself a "proudcomrade"? You make me sick above all.
Are you typing from Miami by any chance?

If it wasn't for Fidel and many other revolutionaries in the 20th century we would have nothing to talk about.
No matter if their record was completely successful or not, these are skilled people who could've be well better off being capitalists if they wanted to.
This goes especially for Castro brothers, coming from a rich family.

The longevity of Cuban Resistance to imperialism should be an inspiration to the masses worldwide.
The good sides of the Cuban revolution are the only tangible things I can use as arguments against apolitical mob that I meet on a daily basis.

But for you, this is something that should make us "sick"?
The only thing you do manage to accomplish is to create a reason for purges after revolution.
I'd rather spend time with a capitalist that sticks to his guns then with comrades that are not comrades.

[proudcomrade]

And you call yourself a "proudcomrade"? You make me sick above all.
Are you typing from Miami by any chance? I'd rather spend time with a capitalist that sticks to his guns then with comrades that are not comrades.

Knock off the ad hominems, please. It is uncalled-for.

[zubovskyblvd]

In my opinion the Cuban CP needs to meet urgently to decide who the next generation of leaders will be, Raul being no spring chicken to say the least. My fear is that if he were to die in the next few years, and there was no clear successor/s, that could greatly aid those who want to restore capitalism to Cuba

[Pogue]

Well given the potential problems that face Cubas future they need to leave the decisions the working class. Democratise their organs of power, etc. So no matter what happens, the class is a strong position and can also decide the future of the country.

[punisa]

Knock off the ad hominems, please. It is uncalled-for.

let us not go off topic, but do you even know what ad hominem(s) mean?
If you do, then you should know that you are the first one to use it. I'm just throwing it back to you.



In my opinion the Cuban CP needs to meet urgently to decide who the next generation of leaders will be, Raul being no spring chicken to say the least. My fear is that if he were to die in the next few years, and there was no clear successor/s, that could greatly aid those who want to restore capitalism to Cuba

This is very true. I also have this weird feeling that Fidel will outlive Raul and perhaps even more people :lol:

[Das war einmal]

The old warmonger would probably love it. Especially the hundreds and hundreds of jails filled with "counterrevolutionaries" rotting there for having bought an illegal slice of cheese during the most recent wave of starvation.

Starvation? Imprisonment for a slice of cheese? You must be pulling my leg...




It makes me even sicker when so many comrades remain unaware of all of Cagastro's illegal dirty tricks, half a century of them.

Illegal dirty tricks, like? Illegal to who?





You can say that again. A dictatorship posing under the guise of a revolutionary socialist state controlled by the proletariat, is about as imperfect as it gets.

If you tend to compare the perfect theory with an imperfect world the result is always dissapointing. A marxist-leninist should be aware of that. And a state controlled by the proletariat = a dictatorship

[RedSonRising]

Since I'm tired of providing evidence yet again that the Cuban people are politically involved with the State and that the structurally imperfect, starved, and constantly harassed Cuban system has done more to benefit the working class than any Latin American (and perhaps third world) State ever has, I'll instead comment on the topic at hand.

After Fidel dies, it is unclear what will happen in Cuba, but I doubt that neo-colonialism will return to the island. While people are discontent on the island for a number of reasons, the conclusion I drew from the Cubans I talked to when I visited the island was that any sentiments regarding a lack liberties and frustration with the State apparatus is not by any means contributing to a desire to allow US corporate interests back into the country. 51 percent of the island's land/resources being controlled by foreign interests is not something the Cubans reminisce about, and while some may want market-oriented reforms, full-fledged capitalism isn't something that the National Assembly can implement, as their stability in power depends on their constituents, however distant. Privatization will destroy the Cuban people who are already struggling. While Raul is making many popular (and a few unpopular) reforms on the island, capitalist restoration is not something i can see going through, and US interests will not be allowed to dominate the destiny of the island as it does the starving neighbors in the Caribbean and the rest of America. While there are many things to whine about in Cuba, the free accessible healthcare/education and lack of imperialist influence are not among them.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I'm worried at the nature of Proudcomrade's post. Even those socialists who are not supportive of Cuba do not use such horrifically anti-socialist language in denouncing Fidel Castro. Can Proudcomrade please come out and state where his alliegances lie? To Revolutionary Socialism or not?

Personally, I support Fidel Castro immensely. Not as a blind follower, mind. It is obvious that he has perhaps bought some of his own immense charisma and charm over the years. He should probably have stepped down a few years ago, the revolution seems a bit stale now. Despite there being a certain level of internal democracy in Cuba, it seems that this has been on the wane in recent years, and the lack of overall democracy within the Cuban Communist Party is certainly worrying, as is the obvious nepotism in hte transition from Fidel to Raul.

When Comrade Fidel passes, and when Comrade Raul too is nearing the end, it will be time for younger socialists, equally ardent in their desire to perfect Socialism, to take over the reins and, even in the face of the extreme US blockade, establish either full participative democracy in Cuba with the Communist Party as the vanguard, or a multi-socialist party democracy. Personally i'd opt for the first.

Fidel and Raul, the original revolutionaries, are bound by their decades of defiance. To change tack now would be tantamount to defeat and would weaken the socialist cause immensely.

[Raúl Duke]

From history, one can deduce that a place like Cuba will either have its system collapse like Russia or have a slow transition to a form of market capitalism like China. That's been the fate of most "socialist"/state-capitalist societies. Of these choices, I prefer the chinese path but neither are really any good choices to pick from. One can hope that whatever awaits for Cuba is a brighter future then what it has now but I'm not hopeful; perhaps, they will have an authentic socialist revolution.

[proudcomrade]

I'm worried at the nature of Proudcomrade's post. Even those socialists who are not supportive of Cuba do not use such horrifically anti-socialist language in denouncing Fidel Castro. Can Proudcomrade please come out and state where his alliegances lie? To Revolutionary Socialism or not?

Certainly. I am a Marxist-Leninist.

What did I say that suggested otherwise? That I believe that Castro's abusive behavior toward so many of the people is unacceptable? I'll bet that a good many persecuted Cuban gay men would agree. That he relies on charismatic Glorious Leader conceits? That Cuba's CDR behave like goons, turning in non-threatening citizens for "offenses" as severe as eating the meat of their own cows when the rations repeatedly run out? And what about the luxury tourism on Cayo Coco and areas like that, replete with preteen jineteras and the elderly Italians and Germans who love them? That his "revolution" ushered in a dynasty based on pure nepotism (Raul...Ramon, the other brother put in charge of the nation's agriculture...the rich bourgeois debutante Vilma Espin made leader of the women's foundation...her and Raul's daughter Mariela in the health ministry...Fidel's two sons Antonio and Fidelito running around the island in Lacoste shirts and using the Internet, driving 4x4s and living like kings, while most of the people live in condemned buildings and lack toilet paper...and yet I'm the supposed traitor for pointing any of this out. I can hear it all now, about how every single problem with that island is ALL the fault of the US embargo, etc., etc., etc., because the Glorious Leader Himself can do no wrong...

Fuck Castro and the rickety chivichana he rode in on. Cult-of-personality "leaders" are a menace to the proletariat.

That miserable dictator has not one communist bone in his decrepit body.

[RedSonRising]

Certainly. I am a Marxist-Leninist.

What did I say that suggested otherwise? That I believe that Castro's abusive behavior toward so many of the people is unacceptable? I'll bet that a good many persecuted Cuban gay men would agree. That he relies on charismatic Glorious Leader conceits? That Cuba's CDR behave like goons, turning in non-threatening citizens for "offenses" as severe as eating the meat of their own cows when the rations repeatedly run out? And what about the luxury tourism on Cayo Coco and areas like that, replete with preteen jineteras and the elderly Italians and Germans who love them? That his "revolution" ushered in a dynasty based on pure nepotism (Raul...Ramon, the other brother put in charge of the nation's agriculture...the rich bourgeois debutante Vilma Espin made leader of the women's foundation...her and Raul's daughter Mariela in the health ministry...Fidel's two sons Antonio and Fidelito running around the island in Lacoste shirts and using the Internet, driving 4x4s and living like kings, while most of the people live in condemned buildings and lack toilet paper...and yet I'm the supposed traitor for pointing any of this out. I can hear it all now, about how every single problem with that island is ALL the fault of the US embargo, etc., etc., etc., because the Glorious Leader Himself can do no wrong...

Fuck Castro and the rickety chivichana he rode in on. Cult-of-personality "leaders" are a menace to the proletariat.

That miserable dictator has not one communist bone in his decrepit body.

Well, I'm not going to say every single problem is the fault of the embargo, but it would be completely incorrect to do the opposite and attribute every problem in Cuba to its leaders and ignore the strategic starvation of a people by the leading exploitative power. Any material shortages you mentioned are in fact due to the lack of access that the Cuban economy has to internationally produced goods such as the toilet paper you note as a lacking resource. They are only recently breaking out of economic isolation with the rise of Bolivarian States. A small carribbean island developed colonially to supply an imperial power through a cash-crop economy cannot function properly under ANY form of government, and the fact that it has survived and even surpassed the standards in neighboring Latin American countries under strong corporatist influences shows a structure that has been engineered by workers and administrators alike to serve the people. I can show you a very interesting and fairly objective study of the relationship between workers & managers and unions & the sate if you'd like.

What interested me when conversing with several Cubans who worked in a restaurant was the infamous "it is worse to kill a cow than a man" situation, whereby a Cuban may be penalized severely for cattle consumption; after reading a dispassionately impartial Castro biography, I learned that the cows that produce milk desirable for consumption as an essential nutritional element could not survive well in the Caribbean climate, and those that did provided milk that did not have enough nutritional benefit to be worth raising. To salvage the few milk-worthy cattle in the best way, the State controls them and guarantees children and the elderly a certain amount of milk daily for their health. Maximizing this lack of resources has forced such measures that satisfy necessities in some areas and at the same time restricts the average Cuban from enjoying a traditional staple of their diet and suffering the lack of access.

What I realized from this isolated societal predicament was that not only does the embargo restrict the Cubans from things ranging from toothpaste to eye-cancer medication, but that it is a root cause of the lack of freedoms allowed- the working class is in a situation of restriction because of the lack of sheer material resources available, similar to the working class of capitalist countries. Through cold non-involvement, the United States has managed to ideologically and materially devastate the country through passive-aggressive exploitation.

One cannot observe Cuba as an experiment or phenomenon with independent variables that do not relate to or factor in such a crippling situational existence.

The "Nepotism" I feel has some truth to it, however I feel that those involved in Castro's close circle who became leading officials were dedicated and able revolutionaries (I doubt they would be in his close circle otherwise as risks for hindrance to success; the two conditions seem dependent on each other in the context of the revolution.) However Raul is making popular changes on the island, such as personal (not private) property reforms which do not lead to the exploitation of anyone; houses can now be sold instead of exchanged, and at least half of the cars I saw had license plates with color-indicators signifying that they were private, not state-owned cars. Some fear these reforms are a return to capitalism, but what I see are happier Cubans with more choice and access to goods without any increase in exploitation of one human being by another through any recent hierarchical shift in relationship to the means of production. He has repeatedly addressed problems previously unspoken on the island ,such as the low salaries and problematic distribution of goods and rationed minimum-food stamps,and signed legislature and held student-talks allowing more public constructive criticism. Speech is still regulated by the Party, but these are positive steps in my opinion. Party-administrative control has been somewhat curved by the municipalization of the agricultural decision-making process.

Such decentralization of the political and economic process is the key to advancing socialism in Cuba, and I share many of the dislikes you have expressed. While it doesn't offer institutional analytical basis, the inquired comforts by the familial associates of Castro and other party leaders do not sit well with me, however I would not assume that such personal advantages gained vis a vis closeness to state power could otherwise be channeled into giving iPods and SUVs to every citizen. The historical repression of homosexuals was wrong, and abhorrently executed, and the cultural machismo behind the social discrimination are still heavily prominent, even though I was pleased to learn of advancements in gay rights on the island through policies such as access to free sex changes for those who choose gender-specific identities different than the ones their biological construction expresses. The general restriction of speech and dissent, though loosening, is probably the most striking negative feature of the Cuban political structure that must be corrected. I won't use the "propaganda war" excuse as a cop-out, but I see the point and again think of the survivalist tactics the Cuban State has been driven to. Reform is much needed in Cuba, but I think that the increased standard of living and involvement in the political process to Cubans and the example that Fidel Castro has given to the Latin American proletariat and oppressed people of the 3rd world in general has proved invaluable to the cause of Socialism. I hope you can evaluate my statements in an objective manner and would be willing to discuss any information you may request in substantiating my arguments.

An afterthought: If the embargo were to be lifted under careful, equitable terms with the United States following increased individual liberties, then I think we could more objectively and less tediously study Cuban Socialism at work without excuses from either side and evaluate the measure of past and potential success that proletarian empowerment has reached/can reach within the structure developed by the revolution.

[Das war einmal]

Certainly. I am a Marxist-Leninist.

What did I say that suggested otherwise? That I believe that Castro's abusive behavior toward so many of the people is unacceptable? I'll bet that a good many persecuted Cuban gay men would agree. That he relies on charismatic Glorious Leader conceits? That Cuba's CDR behave like goons, turning in non-threatening citizens for "offenses" as severe as eating the meat of their own cows when the rations repeatedly run out? And what about the luxury tourism on Cayo Coco and areas like that, replete with preteen jineteras and the elderly Italians and Germans who love them? That his "revolution" ushered in a dynasty based on pure nepotism (Raul...Ramon, the other brother put in charge of the nation's agriculture...the rich bourgeois debutante Vilma Espin made leader of the women's foundation...her and Raul's daughter Mariela in the health ministry...Fidel's two sons Antonio and Fidelito running around the island in Lacoste shirts and using the Internet, driving 4x4s and living like kings, while most of the people live in condemned buildings and lack toilet paper...and yet I'm the supposed traitor for pointing any of this out. I can hear it all now, about how every single problem with that island is ALL the fault of the US embargo, etc., etc., etc., because the Glorious Leader Himself can do no wrong...

Fuck Castro and the rickety chivichana he rode in on. Cult-of-personality "leaders" are a menace to the proletariat.

That miserable dictator has not one communist bone in his decrepit body.


Are you gonna bother of proving all these claims? Like the gay men being prosecuted? Or the fact that he is being called 'the glorious leader'?

If anything he does not have a cult of personality.


And what about the luxury tourism on Cayo Coco and areas like that, replete with preteen jineteras and the elderly Italians and Germans who love them?

What about them? Since you seem to know everything about Castro's Cuba you should be aware of the fact that prostitution is indeed illegal and that the government is trying to keep track of these activities and is putting effort to restrain it. Nevertheless it is simply impossible to entirely remove this blight.

[ComradeMan]

In my opinion the trouble with the Cuban Revolution is this, to bit it simply: the Revolution was a success and the despicable gangster state of Fulgencio "Estoy con el Pueblo" Batista y Zalvidar that prostituted the people of Cuba was defeated.
Let us not forget the background:

"The corruption of the Government, the brutality of the police, the regime's indifference to the needs of the people for education, medical care, housing, for social justice and economic justice ... is an open invitation to revolution."
Arthur M. Schlesinger, on the Batista regime.

"Brothels flourished. A major industry grew up around them: Government officials received bribes, policemen collected protection money. Prostitutes could be seen standing in doorways, strolling the streets, or leaning from windows. One report estimated that 11,500 of them worked their trade in Havana. Beyond the outskirts of the capital, beyond the slot machines, was one of the poorest, and most beautiful countries in the Western world."
David Detzer

But after the revolution....rhen what?

Revolutionary movements do not equal Post-revolutionary governments- the devil is in the detail.

Cuba has been in a phase of "revolution" for 50 odd years.

But then, did the Cubans have a choice?

They were used as a pawn by the Soviets and have been blockaded by the US and the embargo ever since- "Saint Obama" seems to have no intention of lifting the blockade at all. Perhaps he's worried that US citizens will not buy his healthcare prorgam and all go to Havana instead! :D

Was the Cuban revolution allowed to enter a post-revolutionary phase? Did the numerous attack on Cuba and the attempts by the US to oust Castro not all contribute to the current situation? What happened to Kennedy's initial warmhearted feelings towards Castro? How dare the Cubans nationalise their own land- when 75% or so was owned by foreigners!!!! I read that Kennedy had one of his aides order him 1000 cigars though, before the embargo came into effect.

It's a very complicated argument.

The other problem is that NOW nearly two generations have gone by since the revolution in Cuba and is the way of the world, the youngest and future generation will not care about what is "history" to them but more about their future.

Nevertheless, and with certain qualms all the same, I still say...

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!!!

[punisa]

I have never seen a single Fidel Castro statue or even a street called after him in Cuba. And still some accuse him of cult of personality?
Seems that some need to understand the term first.
People that endorsed cult of personality were people like Stalin, Tito and Kim.
During his time Tito had several cities renamed to "Tito town", and this is while he was still alive. That is cult my comrades, not Fidel.

Also Fidel is not a dictator, he was chosen by the people and is still supported by the majority.
Sure, CNN can always pull a couple of idiots from Miami who will tell you how horrible Fidel is, but are we gonna trust them?

Also Fidel is not a hardliner one would think he is, you can read his excellent biography book called "my life" (english title) which is sort of a big big interview with a journalist.
He personally addresses many of his flaws, even the treatment of homosexuals in the early years of the revolution. Claiming how certain aspects were indeed wrong, but that the communist party learned to evolve.

Unfortunately the main criticism always comes from people who simply hate the idea of a vanguard, a single person being in power. They don't even bother to learn anything about the person.

[Maoist-Leninist-Guerrilla]

No, Cuba will defend against a counter revolution, fuck yankee imperialism.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I can see Raul being more socially lenient, but no. i highly doubt it would go anywhere near capitalism.

[FSL]

In no way does anything depend on FIdel living till 100 years old or Raul proving to be a closet capitalist. The economy's course depends a great deal to the more than 300 thousand small landowners who have their own organization and champion their own cause (more land, less taxes, higher prices), the people who legally operate small businesses like diners or taxis, the many people who profit from trading in the black market etc.
If these people are succesful in protecting and advancing their interests, that collide with those of the workers, of course the economy will take a more liberal route. Be it Raul, Fidel or Stalin himself as heads of government.

[proudcomrade]

@Red Son & resistance (b/c that is a lot of text ^^^):

No, I am not going to attempt to prove what I say; it is merely an opinion expressed on an Internet forum about a situation that cannot really be proven from outside Cuba. Ultimately, all that any of us have to go on is some news footage, some recordings of various UN speeches, a few tell-all biographies, and the stories of Cuban residents in the USA, Mexico and Spain. That is all that the man's supporters ultimately have, either. It can get difficult trying to cite exact sources, especially given the Castro regime's penchant for secrecy (yes, partially understandable due to endless US spying; however, the degree of it that does go on is also questionable, IMO). The one document that I encourage all comrades to read is History Will Absolve Me, the primary source that details the takeover of one dictatorship by another.

Re: the cows: The reason why I do not allow him off the hook over the cows is twofold. The first reason is that the punishments are so unduly severe as to contribute toward a miniature prison-labor complex system on much of the island. The arrests and prolonged sentences over these cows are frequent occurrences. The second reason is more concrete; and, in fact, this is one thing that I can suggest for you a source. There is an old Cuban state TV program loaded onto Youtube from 1969 that you can watch to see a little of what I am talking about. He had a program running for decades where he collaborated with his agricultural-engineer brother Ramon to run a series of farms all over the island where two specific breeds of cow, Holstein and Cebu, were genetically engineered into a cross-breed cow designed to give a huge volume of milk and withstand the tropical heat. The program was a smashing success; the cows were hardy and bred well; there should have been no shortage of milk, or even beef, on the island. Today, there is no beef whatsoever, and milk is rationed to children 7 and under only. None for women to protect themselves from osteoporosis; none for athletes and laborers; none for seniors. The blockade is no excuse; where are all of these grade-A cows; and why can the many, but many unemployed on the island, not be hired to farm them?

The link to the brief video explaining the program, along with another one about Castro's failure with the sugarcane exportation program, can be found on Youtube. Search "Como destruir un pais: La Zafra de las 10 Millones", and "Como Destruir un pais: La Ganaderia". The first one is the sugarcane; the second, the cattle-farm program.

The videos, I will warn you, were uploaded by a Miami exile, and the descriptions make fun of the regime from a right-wing standpoint. BE IT KNOWN that I do not side with this man politically. My avatar is Camilo Cienfuegos, and it is not meant to be ironic- I love the Cuban people and want a genuine socialism for them. However, this exile is the only source for this footage; and to his credit, he did not alter it.

The question of the homophobia is a well-known problem. Castro and Guevara ran prison camps to "re-educate" gays. Once again with the police force, imprisonment and intolerance, none of which are exactly hallmarks of communist progress. Today, even after his admission of wrongdoing, he still continues throwing around homophobic slurs in public ("Mariconzón" incident, anyone?); gays still hide their status in fear for their lives among their supposed comrades; and he and Raul do jack shit about the fact that homophobia still runs rampant in Cuban culture. One thing for which I will give due credit to the regime: Their doctors are compassionate and skilled in treating the HIV patients of the nation.

Meanwhile, the elephant in the room remains the collapse of the Soviet Union and the US blockade: Why did Castro's system fail to protect the people from hunger and poverty when those events happened? If his system be viable, why can they not manage self-sufficiency? Why are they exporting all of their crops and foods to survive? Why are they not implementing a program to tap their enormous fish resources; why is the cow-breeding program still leaving them short milk and beef; why are they relying on sugarcane when they could grow about a hundred different food crops in the tropics? With all of the factories on the island (meanwhile, Castro continues smirking about how superior he is about environmental protection) continually belching out smoke and chemicals, where are the basic hygiene products that could cheaply and easily be made? Where is the deal with China that could have made this a zillion times easier still? More importantly, why are the workers not controlling things 100%? Keep in mind that this criticism is coming from someone who does, in fact, believe in a vanguard- just not a piss-poor one notorious for making a hollow mockery out of Marxism!

Finally, the tourism problem: Take a look at the cayos (small chains of tiny mini-islands surrounding the main island) on Google Earth or some other satellite program. Look up the photos of the enormous chains of luxury resorts full of bloated, sunburned white bodies all over the beaches; then turn the coordinates to places like Mayari, or Vedado in Havana, and look at the dilapidated urban ruins and rural shacks full of barefoot, scrawny kids and young, YOUNG women prostituting themselves on street-corners. Watch the videos of underaged "cubanitas" uploaded by the 60-year old Spaniard holidaymakers. Look up the prisons all over the Isle of Pines and a hundred other locations. Then go back to "History Will Absolve Me", and read about the exact same conditions under Batista, only minus the healthcare and literacy systems that I will admit that Castro got right. Inequality? Check. Lack of full proletarian control over the government? Check. Hungry kids? Check. Prostitution problem? Check. Jailings, police raids and executions? Check. Discrimination against gays? Check.

History may absolve Castro; but current events sure don't.

[RedSonRising]

@Red Son & resistance (b/c that is a lot of text ^^^):

Meanwhile, the elephant in the room remains the collapse of the Soviet Union and the US blockade: Why did Castro's system fail to protect the people from hunger and poverty when those events happened? If his system be viable, why can they not manage self-sufficiency? Why are they exporting all of their crops and foods to survive? Why are they not implementing a program to tap their enormous fish resources; why is the cow-breeding program still leaving them short milk and beef; why are they relying on sugarcane when they could grow about a hundred different food crops in the tropics? With all of the factories on the island (meanwhile, Castro continues smirking about how superior he is about environmental protection) continually belching out smoke and chemicals, where are the basic hygiene products that could cheaply and easily be made? Where is the deal with China that could have made this a zillion times easier still? More importantly, why are the workers not controlling things 100%? Keep in mind that this criticism is coming from someone who does, in fact, believe in a vanguard- just not a piss-poor one notorious for making a hollow mockery out of Marxism!

Finally, the tourism problem: Take a look at the cayos (small chains of tiny mini-islands surrounding the main island) on Google Earth or some other satellite program. Look up the photos of the enormous chains of luxury resorts full of bloated, sunburned white bodies all over the beaches; then turn the coordinates to places like Mayari, or Vedado in Havana, and look at the dilapidated urban ruins and rural shacks full of barefoot, scrawny kids and young, YOUNG women prostituting themselves on street-corners. Watch the videos of underaged "cubanitas" uploaded by the 60-year old Spaniard holidaymakers. Look up the prisons all over the Isle of Pines and a hundred other locations. Then go back to "History Will Absolve Me", and read about the exact same conditions under Batista, only minus the healthcare and literacy systems that I will admit that Castro got right. Inequality? Check. Lack of full proletarian control over the government? Check. Hungry kids? Check. Prostitution problem? Check. Jailings, police raids and executions? Check. Discrimination against gays? Check.

History may absolve Castro; but current events sure don't.

The self-sufficiency problem again arises from the fact that Cuba is an island that failed to industrialize fully because of its lack of resources and limited capacity to produce. It's just an island. They got some good stuff there, but not enough to bolster any 5-year plans. While the Cuban system relied heavily on Soviet imports, obviously a wrong choice, however I wonder how this might have played out if the USSR hadn't collapsed; it sounds more like internationalism to me than anything else. The system didn't keep people from experiencing food shortages, but it did, and continues, to prevent starvation.

Also, many hygiene products are complicated in their production and simple things that could be made in the US aren't always the easiest or most cost-effective things to find. Also, increased trade with China for cars and other imports are starting to have greater positive affects on the daily life of the Cuban.

I've been to the tourist section in Cuba, and to be honest I think it has more helped than hurt. European and Latin American tourists enjoying the island's recreational quaities has not only given a steady (albeit slow) rise to the country's GDP and an international openness with Cuba; Spain and France particularly give economic attention to the island, which it desperately needs. We would all rather see such top-notch luxuries given to the people of Cuba, but unfortunately that won't come in a foreign aid package or an internationalist handout, because the rest of the world is still capitalist and Cuba must enter relations based on profit-driven trade and use the revenue to pump the money back into the economy.

The inequality is unfortunate but pales in comparison to the capitalist first world in terms of access to institutions and the individual's contribution to community control. The two-currency system hasn't been progressive at all, however some Cubans are finding ways around it. I have heard talks of getting rid of it, along with the rationing system.

Prostitution is stemming from the same economic depression, with less thuggery and patriarchal undertones to it; again, it is hard to say what is the revolution's fault and what is the embargo's but easier to see what the benefits are.

Proletarian control is not 100 percent, and I would like it to be, but I'm not sure if the Cuban revolution would have survived if it were a completely decentralized anarchist commune chillin on the sand 50 miles away from the coast of the US. The working class must still struggle to gain more control of the state, but it has been observed that they are involved to a large extent now and to deny that achievement is not constructive at all.

The discrimination is there, but it is everywhere and Cuba's institutional support for the gay community is something to aspire to, not criticize without evaluation of the positives.

I do not think that we are too different in our grievances with the Cuban system, however after visiting the island and studying the accomplishments made their by the revolution in comparison to other revolutions and other Latin American countries have experienced, I have concluded the revolution was worth it for the proletariat and still has the potential to progress the ideals of socialism through reform of this very imperfect system. I am nervous but excited to see what Raul, the National Assembly, and the persevering people of Cuba create within the next 5 years.

[punisa]

@Red Son & resistance (b/c that is a lot of text ^^^):

No, I am not going to attempt to prove what I say; it is merely an opinion expressed on an Internet forum .......

Well, I'd still find certain things to which I disagree, and again - agree with some.
But I'm replying mainly to congrats you on your improvement. You gave strong arguments and backed them up with many sources, this is something we can debate on.
Glad you moved passed clogging the discussion with "Castro makes me sick." one-two liners from yesterday :thumbup1:

To the topic - Cuba is far from perfect, we all know that. Claiming it to be the "socialist paradise" would be utterly ignorant and uneducated.
What I want to point out is the fact that certain things accomplished by Castro and the Cuban people could actually lead to all the great things you mentioned, like 100% workers control for example.

And the timing could be right too, global capitalist economy crumbles. Cubans must have more ideas how to guide a country even further towards socialism then some of us living in a right wing countries.

I'd also like to mention one documentary, but for the love of Engels I just can't find it. Basically it shows how many green areas even in inner cities were transformed into productive land for food and how everything takes time to work on it, even highly skilled doctors and other very educated technicians.
Maybe its a minor and trivial example, but I see it as something good. It shows how people from all education/skill levels are not "afraid" to get down and dirty, while in the developed world, a highly skilled technician will probably die of starvation in the matter of months if the crisis turned into a collapse.

Yes, there are many problems Cuba will face in a years to come, but if by any chance a new younger generation of socialists take the wheel in the right directions it could became a prime example to look at.

proudcomrade, you already mentioned certain reforms in agriculture that would benefit the island. If we can see it from afar, then certainly Cubans know it too. It will just take effort to go.
I am vanguardist too, but the thing that worries me (and I noticed I'm not alone) is that we can't quite decipher what is on Raul's mind.
Certainly the stuff they talk about him on CNN is scary, some reporters even praise him as the man who will soon "unlock Cuba to democracy".

Even Raul should be aware that millions of leftists are still carefully looking at what is happening in Cuba, maybe he should acknowledge this and make his plans public and target its speech for the international audience.

[proudcomrade]

The self-sufficiency problem again arises from the fact that Cuba is an island that failed to industrialize fully because of its lack of resources and limited capacity to produce.

Their population is proportionally much smaller, too, though. I believe that they could produce enough to deal with eleven million, especially if they had not delayed linking with China after the collapse of the USSR. That leads me to another point- Raul has long been a supporter of Beijing. He would have made those deals back in 1989 if he had been allowed to. What stopped him? My suspicions are that it was Fidel, as usual. I doubt that it was much of a coincidence that Cuba finally was able to secure some aid, trade and cultural exchange with China once the old bastard was finally forced to abdicate the throne.


I've been to the tourist section in Cuba, and to be honest I think it has more helped than hurt. European and Latin American tourists enjoying the island's recreational quaities has not only given a steady (albeit slow) rise to the country's GDP and an international openness with Cuba; Spain and France particularly give economic attention to the island, which it desperately needs. We would all rather see such top-notch luxuries given to the people of Cuba, but unfortunately that won't come in a foreign aid package or an internationalist handout, because the rest of the world is still capitalist and Cuba must enter relations based on profit-driven trade and use the revenue to pump the money back into the economy.It still does little to justify the obscene luxury resorts in the face of a people living in shacks and close to starvation. Also, throughout Fifo's near-fifty-year reign, citizens were barred from using any of the facilities afforded to the Eurotrash. Segregation is never, ever justifiable in anything resembling communism; and how good could that have been for cultural exchange? Cubans out in the sugar fields, and Spaniards on chaise lounges on marble patios at Varadero and Cayo Romano. This is little more than colonialism.


The inequality is unfortunate but pales in comparison to the capitalist first world in terms of access to institutions and the individual's contribution to community control. The two-currency system hasn't been progressive at all, however some Cubans are finding ways around it. I have heard talks of getting rid of it, along with the rationing system.They might as well. Then again, King Fidel never knew what it was to be denied even the most basic foodstuffs at a ramshackle grocery because he carried only worthless Cuban pesos in a shop that demanded Euros or dollars. He was never turned away for being a Cuban in a business that only serves European customers...on Cuban soil. He wouldn't know, because he grew up bourgeoise, then spent the entire rest of his life as a "revolutionary" with his own personal farm. Even in jail at Moncada, he openly bragged about having the privilege of sitting around cooking himself personal meals of spaghetti and other favorite Italian treats. There is old video footage of him laughing about being a "gordo" (fat guy) while giving a pep-talk to a group of rather skinny schoolchildren in the rural former district of Oriente.


Prostitution is stemming from the same economic depression, with less thuggery and patriarchal undertones to it; again, it is hard to say what is the revolution's fault and what is the embargo's but easier to see what the benefits are.He denied it repeatedly; and at other times, he made jokes about it- about how strong and gorgeous the prostitutes were, etc. I certainly wouldn't put it past the scumbag to have availed himself of their services now and then. His track record of repeated extramarital affairs and 11+ children by many different women certainly doesn't leave him looking angelic in that department. Speaking of which, given his own pants problem, he has one fine nerve calling the gay men of the island "immoral" and "sexual deviants"; that's for sure...


Proletarian control is not 100 percent, and I would like it to be, but I'm not sure if the Cuban revolution would have survived if it were a completely decentralized anarchist commune chillin on the sand 50 miles away from the coast of the US. The working class must still struggle to gain more control of the state, but it has been observed that they are involved to a large extent now and to deny that achievement is not constructive at all.Why does the Asamblea Nacional remain white-dominated? Why were no successors to his government appointed from the hordes of able, talented and willing young people in the Fuerzas Armadas, Juventud Comunista, or even from the massive and advanced educational system? Why was it always transferred to relatives and cronies?



The discrimination is there, but it is everywhere and Cuba's institutional support for the gay community is something to aspire to, not criticize without evaluation of the positives.What positives? There are still waves of young gay men fleeing the island over their orientation. Meanwhile, who knows what the situation is with lesbian women? They are still treated as though they are utterly invisible. Cuba remains a sexist culture despite generations born and raised in an advanced educational system and (allegedly) taught progressive values. Why is the discourse there still so bullheadedly male-dominated? Fifty years of rule by a womanizing homophobe might have something to do with it. So why do these problems remain so deeply entrenched?


I do not think that we are too different in our grievances with the Cuban system, however after visiting the island and studying the accomplishments made their by the revolution in comparison to other revolutions and other Latin American countries have experienced, I have concluded the revolution was worth it for the proletariat and still has the potential to progress the ideals of socialism through reform of this very imperfect system. I am nervous but excited to see what Raul, the National Assembly, and the persevering people of Cuba create within the next 5 years.Believe it or not, I share your optimism. But I think that it will take the passing of the Castro dynasty before the changes finally come. I doubt that we'll see it this decade.