The National Question

[btpound]

i had a discussion with a fellow comrade the other day and it went to an interesting topic: can you be proud of your country and not be a nationalist? Can you be proud of your country and still serve the revolution? Although we both agreed that under world socialism national lines would begin to dissolve and there would be an increasingly worldwide culture, he was firmly anti-American. Personally, I am very proud to be an American. I think that America has a unique national character, and history that helped make me who I am. I am proud of great American writers like Walt Whitman, Mark Twain, Henry David Thoreau. I think America has made great additions to culture, music, art, science. I don't feel like America is superior to anyone else, I am just proud of my culture. I understand that America has a lot of blood on it's hands. The land I am standing on right now was taken from the indigenous people through oppression and genocide. America is the most rotten imperialist power in the world with a violent history of warfare and exploitation. But there is an overwhelming feeling in America people to not be associated with those atrocities. Like Michal Parenti said, "They say we go into this country, we go into that country. We do this, we do that, just shh! We don't do anything. They do it to us, we are part of the victims we're not part of the victimizers."

[ArrowLance]

I think this really boils down to semantics, exactly what is the definiton of the 'nation' they are proud of. I don't have a large problem with pride in ones culture, even if it is somewhat stupid in my opinion, but when one supports their 'nation' in the sense of its power, then I have a problem. By being proud the 'nation's' government or military strength, which is really what it often means, it is about being proud of how the nation competes with other nations. Much like being proud of being part of a specific soccer team or the such.

But overall, pride tends to mean you believe what you are proud of is superior in some way. So when you say you are proud of your nation, which you really have no stake in, you are saying its best you are in that nation since it is superior to others.

The proletarian class has no real reason to be proud in their 'nation' because they really have no nation in today's times. In the same way patriotism, when viewed towards the government like it is implied in America, is aiming yourself at the goals of that government, and so in modern times, against the working class.

[RotStern]

Of course, You can love your country but as soon as it gets to the point where you think your country is better than another thats where it becomes dangerous.

[rosie]

Sounds like that would have been an interesting conversation to be part of. I do have to agree that it comes down to semantics. I think (my own personal opinion of course) that you do have to define nation and pride. I think the word you are looking for isn't pride, it's interest. You are interested in the culture, the scientific developments, these things please you. That's fine. But saying you take "pride" in the fact you are American, I think really betrays your point that nationalism is (if I may say) ignorant, but having an interest in the culture of a nation is alright. Does this make sense at all?

[mikelepore]

I think I know what you mean to say, but the choice of the word "proud" rubs me the wrong way.

I consider pride to be a negative emotion.

Pride, anger, greed, sloth, gluttony, lust and envy -- the "seven deadly sins."

[Tatarin]

It is all definition. What is it that you like with your country - and to be more specific - do the things you like represent all of your country, or just a small part of it?

But what you ask are questions lining on the philosophical side, for example:


I think that America has a unique national character, and history that helped make me who I am.

Which isn't so strange since your whole life is in America. Would you believe the same if you were born in, say, Uganda? Or Cambodia? As an American, with a history behind you, the immediate question is of course no. How could countries ravaged by war be better?

Or, see it like this. Would Uganda be a unique country to you if you were born to a family of rich Ugandans? I'm pretty sure Idi Amin enjoyed Uganda and it's history, it's culture and it's people - obviously, he ruled it.

Another example: would you enjoy America and it's culture if you lived in a very poor family in some forgotten suburb of Detroit? With most of your life being around gangs or the police, just to survive? Then I do not think that American culture is worth very much, or that you would have the time to enjoy it.


I am proud of great American writers like Walt Whitman, Mark Twain, Henry David Thoreau.

This also applies to the previous answer. What makes these people so special? Or American? Aren't they just writers, living in an environment that is by a state called America? How would the world look like if China had been the leading superpower, and these writers Chinese?


I think America has made great additions to culture, music, art, science.

America has done those things, or people born in America? Besides, isn't that just your personal taste? I mean, do you like everything from Hip Hop to Trash Punk? Do you like classical art or modern?

And what makes the science American? Surely, as America is the biggest superpower as well as imperialist, they would need that science. The same would have happened if any other nation would be the leading superpower.

Note that this isn't a personal attack, only a suggestion of how people view things.

[Leaf]

Pride of your country makes no sense imo. You didn't choose to be born there, so what's to be proud of? how can you be proud of someone's work just because they lived on one side of a border. 'American' things that please you . Unless you think a certain country is superior, why be proud of it? Plus people contribute to science or music etc not 'America'. I don't really understand it.

[Niccolò Rossi]

A similar topic has already been discussed at some length here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/positive-patriotism-vs-t119864/index.html). You may find it relevant.

[btpound]

Pride of your country makes no sense imo. You didn't choose to be born there, so what's to be proud of? how can you be proud of someone's work just because they lived on one side of a border. 'American' things that please you . Unless you think a certain country is superior, why be proud of it? Plus people contribute to science or music etc not 'America'. I don't really understand it.

If you were to paint a picture, or build a house, would you not be proud of your work? Even if you had help, you would look at the finished product with pride because it was something you labored to create. Is the same not true for your country? We, the working class, have produced all the wealth of the world. We built every building, constructed the parks, built every school and hospital. Why not be proud of what we built?

[9]

If you were to paint a picture, or build a house, would you not be proud of your work? Even if you had help, you would look at the finished product with pride because it was something you labored to create. Is the same not true for your country? We, the working class, have produced all the wealth of the world. We built every building, constructed the parks, built every school and hospital. Why not be proud of what we built?

Absolutely be proud of your class. How does that translate into being proud of your country? If anything, it's a contradiction to be proud of your class and of your country*

*EDIT: ...unless your class is the bourgeoisie; in which case, it's the same thing. Because no matter your class, loving/being proud of your country = loving/being proud of your country's bourgeoisie.

[Soviet]

If you are not proud of your country,if you don't love your country and your nation how can you love other countries and other nations?
If you love your country you'll wish to change it for better.Pococurantes can't be a revolutioner.
The love push on revolutions.

[9]

^So then, presumably, you love "your" bourgeoisie as well?

[Soviet]

Would you stop loving your mother if she'd fall ill?

[ArrowLance]

Would you stop loving your mother if she'd fall ill?
Would you still love your mother if she beat you and your siblings?

[IllicitPopsicle]

I just finished watching the documentary "Anarchism In America" (Yeah, I know you all will flame me for it) and the late Karl Hess made a good point regarding anti-statism and patriotism.

Paraphrase: Too many people with so-called anti-state sentiments generally fall into a state of patriotism in the event of a national crisis. They start talking about how they would do anything for their country, they'd die for their country, etc. I think there will come a time when the language will change so that the individual can preserve their "country" - the land, people, communities, etc. - while dissolving the "state" - national, state, local governments - and there will be a distinction between the two.

Shit paraphrase, I know. But he did say something to that effect.

[punisa]

You mention good writers like Twain etc, what exactly does being proud of America makes you admire them? Try reading good writers from Germany, Kazahstan, Ghana or Mongolia. You'll find great talent everywhere.
Be proud of people and their accomplishments.

Patriotism, nationalism and every other warm hearted feeling towards a nation is unjustified and immature.

[Soviet]

Would you still love your mother if she beat you and your siblings?

I 'd not hate her,I'd hate her illness.

[9]

Would you stop loving your mother if she'd fall ill?

How is one's mother analogous to the bourgeoisie...?

[NecroCommie]

"Nationalism is without a doubt the most heinous personification of evil mankind has ever faced."

Who said thusly except about communism?

[Soviet]

How is one's mother analogous to the bourgeoisie...?

The illness is analogous to the bourgeoisie.

[9]

^Ok, and I'd hate the illness. I'm not seeing your point?

[Soviet]

The point is:hate your bourgeoisie and love your country.

[ArrowLance]

The point is:hate your bourgeoisie and love your country.

Why should you love your country? I don't get it, it's nothing special. There are other 'countries' full of workers. It seems you are just being semantic, going through all of this to say 'love groups of workers,' which is not the proper definition of country.

[ArrowLance]

I 'd not hate her,I'd hate her illness. Beating children is not really an illness. Your analogy is growing contradictory. If the mother is the country, and the country is of the worker, then her beating the workers would be an action of the workers. Which brings up the point, the working class do not belong to a country, nor does any country belong to it.

If you love an abusive parent, there is probably something wrong with you. The only reason why I can see you loving them is because they take care of you in a sense, and in the same sense the bourgeoisie take care of us, as abusive as they may be.

So, do you love your bourgeoisie?

[Luisrah]

So, do you love your bourgeoisie?

Boy, I love my country, but I don't love my bourgeoisie.

I love the land, the culture, the people, but I don't love my bourgeoisie.
Why is it that by loving my country I love my bourgeoisie in your opinion?

[ArrowLance]

Boy, I love my country, but I don't love my bourgeoisie.

I love the land, the culture, the people, but I don't love my bourgeoisie.
Why is it that by loving my country I love my bourgeoisie in your opinion?
Did you completely miss the part where I explained that using the term 'country' is misleading and makes you sound like a nationalist?

[Tatarin]

I love the land, the culture, the people, but I don't love my bourgeoisie.

What is there to love with your culture? That culture would most likely be radically changed once socialism is applied to your country.

[A.R.Amistad]

Originally posted by Punisa


Patriotism, nationalism and every other warm hearted feeling towards a nation is unjustified and immature.

The most ultraleft thing I have ever seen.

The root of the word "communism" is commune, as in "community. A country is a community. So is a planet.

I think the word you are looking for is not interest or pride, but compassion and a sense of duty. While we are internationalists, we feel that we are responsible for our own community, whether that be a town, a nation or a planet. It is for this reason that I think "flag burning" anti-patriotism is harmful because it not only alienates the working class of your native land, but it also is a symbol of a lack of responsibility and caring on the part of the flag burner. The "fuck you" attitude doesn't hold as much water as "all power to the workers!" If you are talking about America, then yes, I agree that you should not be ashamed of having compassion and admiration for the culture, history and even the healthy traditions of your country. Revolutionary leaders like Lenin loved their country but didn't loose sight of internationalism, and it was this that led them to the ultimate victory. Also, I have thought about this subject quite thoroughly, and I have decided that the best way to separate a healthy love for your community is to separate the words Nation and Country. Nation implies the State, which is oppressive and must be overthrown, and country implies the actual land and community for which you are fighting for. Therefore, one could say "I love my country, but I do not love my nation." Also, imagine going to a socialist country like Cuba and asking them "what do you think about Cuba?" They would not respond "Fuck Cuba I only worship communism and whip myself every day in its honor." They would say they are proud of their country, but they are also internationalists. This is the attitude I think needs to be adopted by leftists all around the world, not the ultraleftist attitude as presented by comrade Punisa.

No offense intended, but to comrade Punisa, who has an avatar of comrade Tito, a big hero of mine, comrade Tito would have whole heartedly have disagreed with your statement. Just sayin'......

To be a communist requires love, compassion, respect and duty to your community.

[Luisrah]

Did you completely miss the part where I explained that using the term 'country' is misleading and makes you sound like a nationalist?

Did you completely miss the part where I explained that I loved the land, the culture and the people?

I suppose you find one ethny (sp?) of men/women more attractive than you find others.
Can I call you a racist?

Come on, you aren't dumb.

By Tatarin:

What is there to love with your culture? That culture would most likely be radically changed once socialism is applied to your country.So? Should I stop loving my mother and father, and everyone actually, just because they will die one day?

[Tatarin]

While we are internationalists, we feel that we are responsible for our own community, whether that be a town, a nation or a planet.

And as they are connected, we have to care for the whole of the community, not parts of it.


It is for this reason that I think "flag burning" anti-patriotism is harmful because it not only alienates the working class of your native land, but it also is a symbol of a lack of responsibility and caring on the part of the flag burner.

I disagree. A big part of any country today includes wars and heroes. What is the US without McDonalds, or Microsoft, or Haliburton? And increasing patriotism will only increase the suspicion of other countries, if not fear for them, as we can see in many parts of Europe today, even neighbouring countries are suspicious towards each other, despite them being close in almost all aspects of life.


If you are talking about America, then yes, I agree that you should not be ashamed of having compassion and admiration for the culture, history and even the healthy traditions of your country.

A culture, history and traditions that have all been instituted by the ruling classes? How many days are there even celebrating the working class in America? May Day has been suppressed for the american "working persons day". Increase partiotism, and May Day will seem even more alien to America.


Revolutionary leaders like Lenin loved their country but didn't loose sight of internationalism, and it was this that led them to the ultimate victory.

I doubt Lenin had much love for the years of tsarist traditions, culture and history.


They would say they are proud of their country, but they are also internationalists.

Not necessarily. A country in itself can not do anything, but people on it, and their type of organization can. And if you ask these Cubans, I can bet that every one of them will be proud for the period that came after Batista. Those who thought Cuba pre-Castro times were a nice place to be in now all lives in Florida mostly.


No offense intended, but to comrade Punisa, who has an avatar of comrade Tito, a big hero of mine, comrade Tito would have whole heartedly have disagreed with your statement. Just sayin'......

So what should the people of Yugoslavia be patriotic of? The current extreme right-wing states or the Yugoslavia that not long ago vanished? What should East Germans celebrate? Or the Koreans?


To be a communist requires love, compassion, respect and duty to your community.

Is it? Or is it the love for people and the improvement of their lives that matters? We know beyond fact that the ruling classes do not care about their own nations. But we also know that many problems we have today can not be solved on the local level. Patriotism will only push those problems away.


So? Should I stop loving my mother and father, and everyone actually, just because they will die one day?

That's different. The question was more directed on if you could let go of your own culture if that would greatly benefit the working class?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Every nation/area of the world has a unique character. That is only natural; people in different parts of the world, in national communities, have developed their own way of dealing with problems/advancing causes.

Nations, generally, have both positive and negative aspects to their culture and history.

Personally, I believe that there are certain things to be proud of that are distinct to Britain - the character we showed during the second world war, the traditional spirit we espouse in sport (especially now that football hooliganism has been largely obliterated in this country) and so on. However, I would not say that I am blindly 'proud' of Britain in general, as we have some very murky histories (Ireland, our authoritarian political system and so on).

I take pride in the positive culture and history of the people of the world, and denounce those detracting aspects of culture and history, whatever nation they belong to.

[A.R.Amistad]

Liu Shaoqi

Internationalism and Nationalism

VI. Conclusion: Genuine Patriotism is Intimately Connected with Internationalism

The above represents the point of view and principles of Marxism-Leninism - of Communists - on the national question. These are the point of view and principles of proletarian internationalism closely connected with patriotism.
It is clear that the genuine patriotism of the masses of the people in all countries is not in contradiction to proletarian internationalism, but is, rather, intimately connected with it. During the period of the Anti-Japanese War, Comrade Mao Tse-tung wrote: “ For us, patriotism is intimately connected with internationalism. Our slogan is - Fight against aggression, in defence of our Fatherland.” “ Patriotism is the application of internationalism in the national revolutionary war.” Needless to say, these remarks fully accord with our present revolutionary war.
Lenin evaluated patriotism as one of the most profound manifestations of the sentiments of countries in the process of consolidation after having been split up in the course of many centuries of even millenniums.
Genuine patriotism means fervent love or one’ s own fatherland, its people, language, culture, literature and best traditions, behind which lie thousands of years and generations of historical development. This kind of patriotism has no connection whatsoever with self-centred, selfish, and anti-foreign bourgeois nationalism, nor with such national prejudices as narrow-minded exclusivism, isolationism, sectarianism and provincialism, which reflect the sentiments of the small peasant and backward patriarchal system
Genuine patriotism respects the equality of other nationalities and at the same time cherishes the hope of realising the best ideals of mankind in one’ s own country while defending the unity of all peoples of all countries. On the other hand, reactionary bourgeois nationalism fans mutual hatred and hostility between nations, while the national prejudices of the old backward patriarchal system isolate their own nationals from the rest of the world, causing them to sink within the narrow confines of their own stagnating outlook. We must resolutely reject both of these positions.
The foregoing has presented a brief explanation of proletarian internationalism as opposed to bourgeois nationalism. At present, both inside and outside of our Party, considerable misunderstanding and confusion exist in regard to proletarian internationalism and bourgeois nationalism. Moreover, the fascist elements are carrying on extremely reactionary and demagogic propaganda regarding this question. It would be extremely harmful to the Chinese people’ s present liberation movement if these misunderstandings and confusions were not cleared up, and if fascist propaganda were not exposed. This article has been written in the hope that it will help to clear up these misunderstandings and confusions as well as to expose the fascist propaganda.


Never mind that he was a Maoist, I whole heartedly agree with comrade Liu on this one.