Log in

View Full Version : RAIM Denver Review: Arun Gupta asks, "What anti-war movement?"



AvanteRedGarde
25th November 2009, 20:48
Review: Arun Gupta Asks, What Anti-War Movement (presented by Democracy Now!, September 24th, 2009)

(http://raimd.wordpress.com)

A year after Barack Obamas presidential election and with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan still raging (and spreading into Pakistan), many within anti-war circles are engaged in dialogue about which way the movement should go. A large part of the problem faced by anti-war activists is that their once relatively large movement is now far smaller and less vibrant. Much focus has been given as to why this is. Many of those still dedicated to the anti-war cause are now taking a critical look at the movements preceeding years, attempting to find lessons which can help them recover from a major slump in organizing and mass action.

One such activist is Arun Gupta, editor of the New York City left-oriented newspaper, the Indypendent. In a speech presented by Democracy Now!, another nominally left media outlet, Arun Gupta attempts to answer some of the hows and whys of the death of the anti-war movement and offers prescriptions for future organizing.

Talking about his background, Gupta says he cut his political teeth as part of solidarity activism for the South African anti-apartheid movement and Latin American struggles. In explaining thoughts at the time about wider radical organizing, Gupta states, theres always been this notion that the left would re-found itself into a mass base movement if we only had some sort of imperialist war that we could oppose, something on the scale of Vietnam; that this would radicalize the population enough and it would show the true face of imperialism. Gupta begins by noting how this never came to fruition.

Gupta on the death of the Amerikan anti-war movement

In attempting to answer why a mass, radical anti-war movement never came into being, Gupta reflects on one of the main US anti-war organizations, United For Peace and Justice (UFPJ). Gupta rightly pegs UFPJ as a shill for the war-mongering Democratic Party, something most remaining Amerikan anti-war activists are aware of. Citing mostly anecdotes and quotes, Gupta describes UFPJs role inside the anti-war movement as one of shepherding activists towards the reformist morass of mainstream electoral politics.

After the Democratic Party gained a congressional majority in 2006, UFPJ supporters, including Gupta, were advocating a power of the purse strategy, urging Democrats to use their federal budgeting power to cut funding to the war. Gupta says the leader of UFPJ, Judith LeBlanc, characterized that strategy, reformist as is was, as being on the outside shaking our fists, and told supporters that the way forward was working within the Democratic Party. Gupta also notes how long-time leftists such as Carl Davidson, who campaigned for Barack Obama, hailed his presidential victory as a milestone for class struggle. According to Gupta, UFPJ and leaders such as Carl Davidson are why the anti-war movement collapsed.

Gupta also says there was a failure on the part of the great hope that was the direct action left, anti-globalization movement, anarchists, student-led groups and some of the parties [most likely referring to the 'Party for Socialism and Liberation' and 'Workers World Party']. Though there was a lot of talk between these groups about reforming and refocusing on anti-war work, he states, nothing has really come from it. He dwells little on why this is and fails to examine the politics of any of these groups. Instead, he still thinks they could potentially come together to form a new, radical, principled anti-war movement. According to Gupta, because it isnt happening, UFPJ still maintains power in the passive, anti-war movement which now supports Obama.

Where Gupta gets it wrong

While UFPJ and Carl Davidson helped lead the anti-war movements shift towards support for the Democratic Party, Gupta adds no analysis or understandings beyond this. His answer of why the anti-war movement never coalesced into a mass-radical movement is shallow, bordering on conspiratorial. Thus, Gupta misses the point entirely.

From the beginning, the anti-war movement was a largely anti-Bush movement, a domestic reaction to the brash, John Wayne-esque brand of imperialism. There was almost none, if any, focused internationalism coming from the largely pro-Amerika movement. Almost all internationalist actions and slogans were by accident, as parts of the anti-war movement took up anti-militarist causes: one memorable example being when Portland anarchists burnt an effigy of a US troop while chanting Bye bye G.I., in Iraq youre gonna die. It is important to note this example was a fringe rejected by the mainstream of Amerikan anti-war sentiment. Moreover, the anarchists undertook the action based on liberal anti-militarism, never bridging over towards a long-term, principled stand with the worlds oppressed against imperialism.

One meme to come out of the anti-war movement was that Bush had turned world opinion against the US. Another was that peace is patriotic. Hardly internationalist or radical slogans, the anti-war movement peddled the mythology of historic Amerikan greatness and a false picture international fraternity. It actually saw itself as trying to improve Amerikas image worldwide. More contrived was the anti-war movements talk about how the wars are supposedly against the interests of Amerikans. Moaning about our wasted tax money was common throughout the anti-war movement. The obvious problem with this is that imperialism, which Amerikans do benefit from, requires imperialist wars. Amerikas wealth is and always has been based on the oppression of other peoples. Amerikans intuitively understand this and most never joined the anti-war movement.

Into 2005, as the war dragged on, and with Bushs incompetence and instability in Iraq dominating attention, more Amerikans began seeing the wars as becoming overly costly and offering less in the way of long term returns, even describing them as a burden to Amerikas interests. However, this is not an anti-imperialist view. Afterall, even ardent imperialists, such as Obama, have described the Iraq war in this light.

In the end, UFPJ didnt simply act as a pied piper, marching the anti-war movement to grave of the Democratic Party. UFPJ is simply on the same page with those nominally opposed to the war. While Gupta thinks there is mass, radical potential within First World, UFPJ has a better understanding of where most Amerikans stand on. Thus, groups like UFPJ are able to maintain leadership of the anti-war movement despite the appearance of a seemingly radical fringe. The anti-war movements shift towards Obama was a natural one, not principally engineered by UFPJ.

Guptas anti-imperialism

Gupta, under mistaken notions about Amerika and the anti-war movement, says that the way forward is building a mass anti-imperialist movement.
From the beginning, Gupta defines imperialism in a metaphysical, abstract way. According the Gupta, capitalist-imperialism is the defining if not dominant inter-state relation and flows of power in the world today. Gupta points to the Iraq war as an example of Western imperialisms attempt to secure Mideast oil against gains by the lesser imperialist bloc of Russian and China. While this is true to an extent, Gupta misses the point.

Capitalist-imperialism, todays flow of power, is the process of capital accumulation on a global scale: it is the exploitation of the global majority, the Third World masses, to the effect of benefitting and buying-off virtually all of the First World. A primary feature of the current capitalist-imperialist system is vast global inequality between the exploiter First World and the exploited Third World.

Gupta is also wrong to say that imperialism is the defining inter-state relations. In actuality, states are propped up over the course of class struggle to enforce class rule. With few exceptions, Third World states are extentions of imperialism, surrogates to the process of capital accumulation. Also, while divisions between the imperialists of different countries exist, they are rarely a principal feature. What is significant about the Iraq war is not possible ambitions to wedge out lesser imperialist forces, but rather a multi-national, U.S.-led force invaded and occupied to country to secure a greater stake in oil reserves against the interests of the Iraqi and Third World masses.

Throughout his speech, Gupta never does come to terms what imperialism really is. Rather than stating the obvious First Worlders enjoy greater rates of consumption, more leisure time, little repression, are visibly better off than most of the worlds people and thus have little reason to radicalize or become anti-imperialists Gupta uses a ridiculous abstraction, consensual hegemony, to explain why First Worlders support the imperialist system. Gupta simply refuses to approach reality: the First World masses support imperialism because it supports them.

Because of this, Guptas anti-imperialism remains hollow. Not based on serious analysis, Gupta posits an anti-imperialism which almost anyone can embrace. Guptas anti-imperialism changes nothing in terms of practical implications for those who do uphold it. In this case, anti-imperialism is an abstract tag-on phrase, a meaningless slogan, for ultimately First Worldist, movementarian politics. Gupta is not concerned with doing a serious study of imperialism, including coming to terms with its consequences. For Gupta, his goal has always been to organize Amerikans.

The magic key theory

According to Gupta, there is a magic key that can unlock a radical potential in Amerikans. First Gupta thought it would be an imperialist war. Then he decides that supporting UFPJ and doing independent journalism would somehow radicalize Amerikan masses. Now Gupta calls for principled anti-imperialism as part of his latest attempt to inspire a radical idealism into Amerikans. Guptas calls for anti-imperialism, like his calls for other moralistic positions, will fall on deaf ears as long as he sees Amerikans and the First World as a social base for radical, progressive change.

Because Gupta is a proponent of the magic key theory, his critique of other groups are petty. He claims that the more radical sectors of the anti-war movement never really confronted the state. He says that the anti-war movement was really never able to break free from the limitations of the state, and thus was never able to expand as a radical movement. But what does this mean and is it true? Just in Denver, for example, anti-war graffiti popped up. Khristopher Kolumbus and other statues have been vandalized multiple times. During the DNC, a protest led by a black bloc took the streets and marched downtown. Denver has solidarity networks for prisoners and victims of police brutality and active chapters of Copwatch. Most recently, a nominal anarchist has been accused by the pigs of breaking windows at the Democratic Party Headquarters.

What does Gupta think was missing? A golden opportunity was missed in the counter-recruitment movement, he says. Surely, counter-recruitment was another one of Guptas magic keys: another one that didnt work supposedly because the left wasnt turning hard enough.

Like Guptas anti-imperialism, his prescribed necessity to confront state power is abstract. Besides his counter-recruitment spiel, Gupta never defines confronting state power. He doesnt give other examples, historic or modern. Confronting state power, for Gupta, is another movementarian fantasy, speculatively postulated in a way that ignores the real social and material basis of mass apathy and reaction-ism in Amerika.

Guptas chauvinism

Guptas anti-imperialism is not anti-imperialism at all. Instead, Guptas politics is one of chauvinism wrapped in loosely-construed, anti-imperialist slogans.

As a matter of narrowness and left Amerikan exceptionalism, Gupta never once mentions resistance efforts on the part of oppressed peoples in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Third World. Gupta, now a self-described anti-imperialist, not once mentions those exploited by imperialism in the Third World! Instead he focuses solely on the radical potential of the largely defunct anti-war movement in the First World. We ask, how can this possibly be anti-imperialism?

Gupta uses his privilege and broadcasts a phoney anti-imperialism, objectively to the disservice of real anti-imperialism. Those in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in the Third World, for whom anti-imperialist struggles are often ones of life and death, do not have the luxury to freely and openly broadcast their ideas and experiences on their common struggle against imperialism. Instead, this is a luxury for Gupta, who not only speaks the colonizers language but has the privilege of doing so without repression. Does he take this privilege seriously? No. For Gupta, anti-imperialism is another phrase, liberally thrown around to see if Amerikans bite. Without a second thought, he uses his membership of the worlds richest 15% to broadcast an effective lie, that Amerikans are friends of the Third World, calling it anti-imperialism. Again, we ask, what is Gupta doing besides objectively blunting real anti-imperialism worldwide?

Revolutionary anti-imperialism

The difference between Gupta and ourselves is obvious. Gupta conceives of unity between the Third and First World masses where none meaningfully exists; he insists that Amerikans are potentially revolutionary when they clearly are not. Thus, his politics will always be implicitly pro-Amerikan and not representative of the immediate interest of the worlds people.
Real anti-imperialism, the politics of the Revolutionary Anti-Imperialist Movement, derives its strength from and seeks to inspire the global masses, the 80% of the people in the Third World for whom resistance is a way of life. Real anti-imperialists see Amerikans for what they are class enemies of the Third World masses and understand this: imperialism will only come crashing down through the advancements of the struggle by Third World peoples for liberation.

Our strategy

While Gupta is wasting time trying to radicalize Amerikans, the Revolutionary Anti-Imperialist Movement (RAIM) is engaged in real strategies for real revolutionary change. Whereas anti-imperialism is just a buzzword for Gupta and First Worldists, RAIM understands that imperialism is the crux of world dynamics and proceeds from there. A hallmark of RAIMs strategy is accounting for limitations imposed on us by the fact that Amerikans support imperialism and using our privilege to develop real aid in the revolutionary struggle.

We dont water down genuine anti-imperialist politics to pander to First Worlders. Above all, RAIM speaks the truth and says it loud and clear: First Worlders maintain their decadent lifestyles via imperialism; are class enemies of the real masses in the Third World; the complicit Volk in a murderous global empire; and must be overthrown along with imperialism. We openly represents anti-imperialist politics and broadcast our analysis to a global audience, using our own privilege to do so, even if most Amerikans dont like or get it.

First World mass movements come and go, along with most of its participants. Rather than trying to build an anti-imperialist mass movement in the First World, RAIM is a politically sophisticated and technically versatile one, with the aim of best serving the Third World masses and their struggle. We want dedicated, determined comrades who are all in for the long haul. RAIM broadcasts a consistent message of anti-imperialist solidarity globally and is a focal point of revolutionary agitation, education and political development within the belly of the beast, Amerika. Through RAIM, we seek out and educate those few First Worlders who can be best won over the consistent anti-imperialist politics. Through RAIM, we develop both politically and technically, becoming more of an asset to the revolutionary struggle.

RAIM is important as a national network which openly represents anti-imperialist politics, but it should be seen for what it is: an appendage to the vast Third World struggle; our collective effort to contribute to this larger revolutionary movement. RAIMs message is huge, too big for RAIM alone. We encourage constant political and technical development, specialization and the application of Third World-oriented, revolutionary politics to different types and forms of work. We support those who support the movement of the exploited Third World against the imperialist First.

The scorecard

Arun Gupta and RAIM represent two very different types of anti-imperialism. Guptas is one of magic keys and preeminent, potentially radical First World masses. He brings little new to the table. His explanations of everything from why the anti-war movement collapsed to what is imperialism seem shallow or abstract. His analysis is neither real anti-imperialism nor a strategy for revolutionary change.

Nearing the end of his speech, after talking for thirty minutes, in the typical manner of First Worldist intellectuals, asking how to build a genuine, radical mass movement, Gupta says its something hes thought about a lot about, but doesnt have any real answers for. Typical.

RAIM posits an anti-imperialism that is new, that explains things in a way Gupta cant. Our anti-imperialism is groundbreaking and changes the focus and look revolutionary political work for those in the First World.

RAIM wont lead a revolutionary mass movement, nor do we intend to. Nevertheless, we still have a positive role to play in the global revolutionary struggle. By working together, representing and broadcasting a consistent anti-imperialist message, operating as a school to our own and others political and technical development and promoting Third World-oriented, revolutionary unity, we can act as agents of global revolutionary change in a way that First Worldists such as Gupta cant.

The difference is simple. Gupta is First Worlder whos into nominally-leftist mass movements. RAIM? The name says it all.

[Video of Gupta's speech can be found here: http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2009/9/24/arun_gupta_asks_where_is_the_anti_war_movement] (http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2009/9/24/arun_gupta_asks_where_is_the_anti_war_movement%5D)

ls
2nd December 2009, 16:28
I've never heard the name mentioned before, even if he is the editor of some crappily named leftist rag, although I would be interested in how popular this indypendent (god what a shit name) is.

RGacky3
2nd December 2009, 16:31
Hey, this is a discussion board, so discuss things, people don't want to read long ass articles.

AvanteRedGarde
2nd December 2009, 20:00
God forbid people at Revleft engage in a critical dialogue. Instead it's a individualist, quasi-post modern, anti-intellectual circle jerk.

So, Gacky. Do you actually have anything worthwhile to say, relevant to the article at hand? It doesn't seem like it.

AvanteRedGarde
2nd December 2009, 20:05
I've never heard the name mentioned before, even if he is the editor of some crappily named leftist rag, although I would be interested in how popular this indypendent (god what a shit name) is.

Does it really matter? His politics are virtually identical to 99% of the people who post on Revleft.

To answer your question, its the magazine associated with the NYC Indymedia website and center. I agree that it is a stupid, liberal name.

ls
2nd December 2009, 20:35
Does it really matter? His politics are virtually identical to 99% of the people who post on Revleft.

Can't disagree, especially the anti-war movement is pretty lame with shit like the UFPJ and so forth.

What does RAIM do instead of these war protests from ANSWER/UFPJ though, being based mostly in the U$$ like all good maoist-third-worldists and their organisations and all. Additionally, I have seen you praising the PSL's anti-imperialist positions before, bearing in mind they are largely linked with the ANSWER coalition.

Does RAIM praise/work with ANSWER on anything?

Kassad
2nd December 2009, 22:38
Can't disagree, especially the anti-war movement is pretty lame with shit like the UFPJ and so forth.

What does RAIM do instead of these war protests from ANSWER/UFPJ though, being based mostly in the U$$ like all good maoist-third-worldists and their organisations and all. Additionally, I have seen you praising the PSL's anti-imperialist positions before, bearing in mind they are largely linked with the ANSWER coalition.

Does RAIM praise/work with ANSWER on anything?

They don't work with us. Though Maoist Third-Worldists may agree with our line on some issues, they don't uphold the first-world working class as revolutionary. We don't really agree on anything at all when it comes to revolutionary practice.

AvanteRedGarde
3rd December 2009, 17:22
Please explain your line on the "first world working class as revolutionary." RAIM just wrote a polemic on it arguing to the contrary, all I see is insistence on your part.

AvanteRedGarde
3rd December 2009, 18:03
I don't know the ends and outs of RAIM. Check them out for yourself, "committed revolutionary."

Kassad
3rd December 2009, 21:26
Please explain your line on the "first world working class as revolutionary." RAIM just wrote a polemic on it arguing to the contrary, all I see is insistence on your part.

The first world working class has the potential for revolution, as opposed to the anti-Marxist view of Maoist Third-Worldists that the working class in first-world countries cannot bring about revolution. Marxist analysis shows us that there is an irreconcilable conflict between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. In the Communist Manifesto, it points to the "proletariat alone as the really revolutionary class." Nowhere in Marx's writings will you find him saying 'the proletariat is really revolutionary, except in those first-world countries.' Marx actually anticipated revolutions in industrialized countries, as opposed to impoverished third-world countries. Your argument falls apart right about there unless you want to renounce Marx as one of your theoretical supporters.

Since the proletariat in the first world is exploited through the holding of surplus value by the exploiters, alienation of the fruits of their labor by the bourgeoisie and the suppression of their right to unionize and form revolutionary parties, it is obvious that the working class is exploited in the first-world. Because the conflict between the proletariat and the bourgeois class is irreconcilable, that means that inevitably, class struggle will bring the conflict to a revolutionary situation to tear down the ruling class and replace it with a dictatorship of the proletariat; a workers state to suppress the bourgeoisie and to centrally plan resources for the benefits of workers. You can say what you want, but as Marx said, the proletariat is a really revolutionary class and revolutionary struggle will rise whether you want it to or not.

ls
3rd December 2009, 21:34
I don't know the ends and outs of RAIM. Check them out for yourself, "committed revolutionary."

Someone asks what your party's politics are (we can only assume it's your party as you know, you have it in your sig?) and you come out with some lame cop-out response.

It's funny because I'm not a Maoist, yet I know the positions of just about all the Gat BNPritain Maoist parties that aren't just 3 person sects. It would be very strange for an American Maoist not to know the politics of the party he constantly talks about... but there you go.

RGacky3
4th December 2009, 09:26
God forbid people at Revleft engage in a critical dialogue. Instead it's a individualist, quasi-post modern, anti-intellectual circle jerk.


how about you look up the definition of those words (except circle jerk) and then actually apply it to revleft, in stead of just spouting buzzwords. Why don't you have your own ideas instead of just regurgitating maoist nonsense.

Sasha
4th December 2009, 10:43
While Gupta is wasting time trying to radicalize Amerikans, the Revolutionary Anti-Imperialist Movement (RAIM) is engaged in real strategies for real revolutionary change. Whereas “anti-imperialism” is just a buzzword for Gupta and First Worldists, RAIM understands that imperialism is the crux of world dynamics and proceeds from there. A hallmark of RAIM’s strategy is accounting for limitations imposed on us by the fact that Amerikans support imperialism and using our privilege to develop real aid in the revolutionary struggle.


Above all, RAIM speaks the truth and says it loud and clear:


RAIM posits an anti-imperialism that is new, that explains things in a way Gupta can’t. Our anti-imperialism is groundbreaking and changes the focus and look revolutionary political work for those in the First World.

blowing your own trumpet much?

and besides what do you (3th worldist) actualy do? i mean if this
wasting time trying to radicalize Amerikans is the case.
what are you doing except posting on the internet from your KKKomputer?
are you traveling to somalia or nepal engaging in armed strugle?
are you blowing militairy ships up in the harbour?
no your whining on internet.
you are the same cowards as most of the left-coms, hiding on the internet or in leaflets from real activist work, only difrence is that left-coms ideaological pure "waiting for the marxist moment" ideas make sense in some way and your proler than you "waiting for the 3th world" ones dont.

danyboy27
4th December 2009, 12:03
why maoist third worldist idealize third world worker so much?
i seriously dont understand the point of divide the left even further.
we are worker and we should be united.

i know it sound like fairy tales, but somehow we all work for a living.

blank
8th December 2009, 12:20
The first world working class has the potential for revolution, as opposed to the anti-Marxist view of Maoist Third-Worldists that the working class in first-world countries cannot bring about revolution. Marxist analysis shows us that there is an irreconcilable conflict between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. In the Communist Manifesto, it points to the "proletariat alone as the really revolutionary class." Nowhere in Marx's writings will you find him saying 'the proletariat is really revolutionary, except in those first-world countries.' Marx actually anticipated revolutions in industrialized countries, as opposed to impoverished third-world countries. Your argument falls apart right about there unless you want to renounce Marx as one of your theoretical supporters.

Since the proletariat in the first world is exploited through the holding of surplus value by the exploiters, alienation of the fruits of their labor by the bourgeoisie and the suppression of their right to unionize and form revolutionary parties, it is obvious that the working class is exploited in the first-world. Because the conflict between the proletariat and the bourgeois class is irreconcilable, that means that inevitably, class struggle will bring the conflict to a revolutionary situation to tear down the ruling class and replace it with a dictatorship of the proletariat; a workers state to suppress the bourgeoisie and to centrally plan resources for the benefits of workers. You can say what you want, but as Marx said, the proletariat is a really revolutionary class and revolutionary struggle will rise whether you want it to or not.

where is this proletariat in us? mostly us, and not am say all, is petite bourgeois, while this proletariat is largely the minority, and is unemployable at all. most is sold out to welfare programs and now is support imperialism as it feeds it and shelters it, and is kept medicated on various types of opiate, whether opiate be the traditional opiate of masses as according to marx, sex and tv as according to lennon song, or literal opiate or narcotics and speed. and is paralyzed by the 'left' by groups such as ufpj. though am enemy with rcp, their avakian has good on 'pyramid analysis' for further on this, what am attempting to say am.

back to marx and anticipations of marx, and what kind of country/nation was it that has so far made it the furthest in socialist road? a third world country did in mao's china. marx is wrong on some things, while marx/engels is not wrong proven on the foundation of marxism: dialectical materialism. to cling to erything marx said is dogmatic, and is actually anti-marxist as it is against the very foundation of marxism: dialectical materialism.

i would like to express as well that i am not think is impossible for us working class for make rev, however it will likely not get the push it needs from within and will require leadership from the third world proletariat. when in us history were the bourgeoisie most feel threatened? in the 60's and this was largely due to the leadership of the proletariat in china during the gpcr taking place at the thyme. not as much to do with unpopular war, look at now, we have unpopular war, but nowhere is there country with socialism that is actually going in any direction (toward communism).

Sasha
8th December 2009, 13:26
why maoist third worldist idealize third world worker so much?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism

AvanteRedGarde
8th December 2009, 17:51
I just find it funny that noone has referenced the actual article. I don't see why not, considering Arun Gupta's politics are virtually identical to everyone on revleft.

That's a lie, I know why noone has addressed the article.

There is no exploited First World masses, and hence no working class revolutionary movement, period.

AvanteRedGarde
8th December 2009, 18:03
Why do First Worldists idolize people who are in the world's richest 20%?

First Worlders have cars, flat screen HD TVs, computer games, fashionable cloths and a stream of new hit music. First Worlders are not the proletariat, those with "nothing to lose but their chains and everything to gain," as Marx described. 50% of Amerikan households own stock, they earn some income directly from capital: hardly proletariat.

The vast Third World masses are the main body of today's proletariat. It's fucking simply for anyone who's not an outright chauvinist wrapped in 'leftist'-sounding dogma.

RGacky3
8th December 2009, 21:29
Why do First Worldists idolize people who are in the world's richest 20%?


I don't believe "not condeming as exploiters" is the same as "idolozing."


The vast Third World masses are the main body of today's proletariat. It's fucking simply for anyone who's not an outright chauvinist wrapped in 'leftist'-sounding dogma.

I don't think anyones disagreeing with you.


There is no exploited First World masses, and hence no working class revolutionary movement, period.

Yes there are, anyone that works as a wage laborer is exploited, period. You have no evidence that they are not exploited.

Raúl Duke
9th December 2009, 01:23
I kind of agree with the guy's basic premise...

The anti-war movement took the direction, whether implicit or explicit (depending on the case) that by having the democrats takeover then perhaps the war would end. Anyone with any knowledge of history would know that during the Vietnam war, which the anti-war movement keeps referring to, Democrats were elected to power (sometimes as the "peace candidate") and yet all of them did nothing to end the war and instead increased troops in Vietnam so the idea that the "democrats will end it" was ridiculous from the get-go. No tendency in the movement was successful in moving the movement, which was mostly of liberal activists, towards a more radical perspective though.

If it's true that the anti-war movement lost it's steam then I guess it's kind of like that Marx comment "Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time [in this case, the Vietnam anti-war movement although it wasn't much of a tragedy since Vietnam won and U.S. troops were eventually called back but the fact that it seemed to take a long time for the war and U.S. involvement to end I guess it could be construed that is the tragic part] as tragedy, the second time [the current movement] as farce"

AvanteRedGarde
9th December 2009, 11:03
Yes there are, anyone that works as a wage laborer is exploited, period. You have no evidence that they are not exploited.

This single statement is the only evidence you have that First Worlders are exploited.

What I am arguing is that First Worlders, often through their wages, receive over and above the value of labor. Amerikans' over-inflated wages just don't appear out of thin air. Instead, a portion of it is made up of surplus value from exploited workers and comes directly at the expense of those in the TW.

Furthermore, if the 'proletariat' is simply someone who worlds for a wage, then the terms is essentially meaningless, specifically because there are such vast disparities between 'proletarians' and little to no common consciousness, unity, etc.

By defining the proletariat as anyone who works, you are depriving it of its power. Despite all your pandering for First World petty exploiters, you receive no support from them. Instead, proletariat becomes jargon for a bunch of pseudo-marxist nerds on listservs and message boards.

Proletariat as the Third World masses, those with nothing to loose but their chains, is powerful. The prospect of unity of the Third World is a scary prospect for imperialists and exploiters. This a real phenomenon, one that arises naturally, regardless of if it is identified or not.

Sasha
9th December 2009, 12:45
What I am arguing is that First Worlders, often through their wages, receive over and above the value of labor. Amerikans' over-inflated wages just don't appear out of thin air. Instead, a portion of it is made up of surplus value from exploited workers and comes directly at the expense of those in the TW.



so, i asume you lot are living out of dumpsters? because if you dont see any purpose in politicing first world workers, and do believe above statement i see few options not to be total hypocrites.
either shoot yourself or fuck off to the third world and go work there.

RGacky3
9th December 2009, 14:01
What I am arguing is that First Worlders, often through their wages, receive over and above the value of labor. Amerikans' over-inflated wages just don't appear out of thin air. Instead, a portion of it is made up of surplus value from exploited workers and comes directly at the expense of those in the TW.


So your saying that American's and europeans labor actaully looses money for their respective companies? Americans labor come from a history of class struggle and victories. You have no proof that Capitalists are taking profit losses from American labor and paying it off with third world labor, its just atheory you have.


Furthermore, if the 'proletariat' is simply someone who worlds for a wage, then the terms is essentially meaningless, specifically because there are such vast disparities between 'proletarians' and little to no common consciousness, unity, etc.

Someone who's lively hood is wage is the meaning of proletarieat or wage worker, the fact that there is little consciousness / unity, does'nt change teh fact that they are wage workers, proletariat, that lack of unity, is the fault of the left and synicalism.

Also there is also not so much unity amung third world workers, and there are disparities between them too, so wahts your point?


By defining the proletariat as anyone who works, you are depriving it of its power. Despite all your pandering for First World petty exploiters, you receive no support from them. Instead, proletariat becomes jargon for a bunch of pseudo-marxist nerds on listservs and message boards.

In the first world, yeah, syndicalists don't have THAT much power, but guess what, niether do they in most of hte third world.

Also again you blame us for being internet marxists of whatever, but we are out there organizing our neighborhoods, our workplaces, tyring to make changes.

third worlders (from the first world like yourself) ONLY WRITE BLOGS, I don't know what else you do, what are you guys doing???


Proletariat as the Third World masses, those with nothing to loose but their chains, is powerful. The prospect of unity of the Third World is a scary prospect for imperialists and exploiters. This a real phenomenon, one that arises naturally, regardless of if it is identified or not.

its not a scary prospect for first world workers, it IS one for Capitalists yes.

But again I ask you, YOU ARE IN THE FIRST WORLD, is'nt in (according to your rediculous theory) in your interest to not liberate the third world? If so should'nt you (being the marxist materialist you are) work in your material interest? Or are you, an .... idealist???

Kassad
9th December 2009, 14:40
Wouldn't it just make sense for Third-Worldists who live in the first world to kill themselves so they stop exploiting the third-world? I'd support that progressive move.

mykittyhasaboner
9th December 2009, 15:32
I would love to see the reaction of a single mother who works all day doing menial labor after being told by a third-worldist that she is not exploited, and actually, she exploits somebody in the third world. Or the reaction of a young unemployed black man in the ghetto that they are a part of labor aristocracy.

Avante, we realize that workers in the "third world" are by all means subject to far worse conditions of exploitation and standards of living than many of those in the "first world", but that does not mean that exploited classes don't exist in the "first world". The logic is terribly flawed. By definition, wage labor is exploitation. The majority of those living in the rich and prosperous paradise that is the West are wage workers. How in the world are they not exploited? They sell their fucking labor, only to be paid signifigantly less value than they actually produced; while the owner of their production keeps the profits. Again how is this not exploitation?