Christianity is inseperable to Nazism

[A.R.Amistad]

I may be preaching to the choir, but in addressing the history of Fascism, Nazism in particular, I wanted to clear up the issue on Christianity as an influence on Hitler and National Socialist ideology. In the past few decades, revisionist historians have tried to paint both Nazism and Hitler himself as a product of atheism, or that Paganism was a religious goal of the Nazi program. This is far from the truth though. The vast majority of Nazis were of some denomination of Christianity, practiced conservative Christianity and believed that fascism and Nazism was the key to restoring "Christian" morality and values to the State. Only a few Nazis, Heinrich Himmler in particular, expressed a belief in the occult, but leading Nazis, including Hitler himself, were quick to shun these ideas. In fact, Goebbels had been charged with the task of producing evidence that Jesus was of Aryan descent, not Jewish. The goal of the Nazis was to reestablish the Holy Roman Empire as a stronger state, and a Holy Empire can't truly be "holy" without Christianity. Hitler and the Nazis saw the rift between Protestantism and Catholicism as unnecessarily divisive, and sought to reunify them in a sort of Christian Nationalist Church. It has also been said that Christianity was a tactic employed by leading Nazis, but was simply a ploy for power. Again, this argument holds little water. The only recordings of anti-Christian remarks from Hitler come from a diary that was discovered to be a complete hoax. Hitlers speeches, as well as his party policy of professing a "Positive Christianity" as well as his constant reference to "The Almighty" "The Lord" "The Almighty" "The Almighty Creator" and most importantly "The Great Founder of Our New Doctrine: Christ." Here is a piece of text from Mein Kampf (one of many that evoke Christian fundamentalism) that proves glaringly that Hitler and his ideology of Nazism was inspired by and had foundations in right wing Christianity, both privately and publicly.

Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, "Jewish Religious Doctrine" pages 306-307

His [Jews] life is only of this world, and his print is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of His attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took to the whip to drive them from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-and this against their own nation

The importance of this lies in the fact that we as leftists and historians need to make sure that the revisionist historians don't bastardize history so as to wipe Christian history clean of the blood from fascism and the Holocaust. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

[red cat]

I may be preaching to the choir, but in addressing the history of Fascism, Nazism in particular, I wanted to clear up the issue on Christianity as an influence on Hitler and National Socialist ideology. In the past few decades, revisionist historians have tried to paint both Nazism and Hitler himself as a product of atheism, or that Paganism was a religious goal of the Nazi program. This is far from the truth though. The vast majority of Nazis were of some denomination of Christianity, practiced conservative Christianity and believed that fascism and Nazism was the key to restoring "Christian" morality and values to the State. Only a few Nazis, Heinrich Himmler in particular, expressed a belief in the occult, but leading Nazis, including Hitler himself, were quick to shun these ideas. In fact, Goebbels had been charged with the task of producing evidence that Jesus was of Aryan descent, not Jewish. The goal of the Nazis was to reestablish the Holy Roman Empire as a stronger state, and a Holy Empire can't truly be "holy" without Christianity. Hitler and the Nazis saw the rift between Protestantism and Catholicism as unnecessarily divisive, and sought to reunify them in a sort of Christian Nationalist Church. It has also been said that Christianity was a tactic employed by leading Nazis, but was simply a ploy for power. Again, this argument holds little water. The only recordings of anti-Christian remarks from Hitler come from a diary that was discovered to be a complete hoax. Hitlers speeches, as well as his party policy of professing a "Positive Christianity" as well as his constant reference to "The Almighty" "The Lord" "The Almighty" "The Almighty Creator" and most importantly "The Great Founder of Our New Doctrine: Christ." Here is a piece of text from Mein Kampf (one of many that evoke Christian fundamentalism) that proves glaringly that Hitler and his ideology of Nazism was inspired by and had foundations in right wing Christianity, both privately and publicly.

Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, "Jewish Religious Doctrine" pages 306-307


The importance of this lies in the fact that we as leftists and historians need to make sure that the revisionist historians don't bastardize history so as to wipe Christian history clean of the blood from fascism and the Holocaust. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Not sure about this, but didn't Nazis think that Christianity is too weak a religion and some form of paganism is ideal for the Aryan race?

[A.R.Amistad]

Absolutely not. This is the point I was trying to get across. The idea of Nazi-Paganism is mostly a myth based on a very small minority of individual Nazis, but Nazism was definitely rooted in Christianity. As for Paganism, Hitler describes, with admiration, how Christianity "destroyed the Heathen alters" and replaced them with Christian ones. He saw Pagan Europe not as a period of Aryan religious purity but of general barbarism. He saw Christianity, on the other hand, as an enlightenment to Aryans. He was inspired by the spirit of the crusaders. It is nothing new for totalitarian and/or murderous Christians to see Christianity as a religion for the weak, but in fact, revisionist Christians, way before even the middle ages, divided up Jesus' teachings into two categories. 1. The egalitarian teachings, which were seen as an appeal to the masses by Jesus for religious devotion 2. The gospel of the powerful. Christians of Hitler's type saw the powerful (Aryan race) and the Status Quo as particularly blessed. So no, Nazism saw Western Conservative Societal structure as the basis of their ideology, and Christianity was a fundamental part of that, even for Hitler. A present day right wing Christian group called "The Family" teaches the same thing, and the idea was created way before Hitlers time.

[red cat]

Thanks for that. I too sometimes thought that why should nazis need paganism when they have already got something so promotional of genocides right with them.

[A.R.Amistad]

No problem. It should also be noted that the Neo-Nazi NSM88(US) has their website adorned with "God Bless America" and "Merry Christmas" as opposed to "Happy Holidays" even though they claim to be open to Christians and non Christians. And the even more dangerous Neo-Nazi organization Aryan Nations is keeping Hitler's sick legacy alive with their own white supremacist church, "Church of Jesus Christ Christian."

http://www.nsm88.org/jointhefight/membership_index.html

Note the "God Bless America slogan at the bottom, which is probably not a Pagan God.

http://www.nsm88.org/articles/christmas-hating-jew.html

Nazis complaining about Christmas being desacrated.

http://www.nsm88.org/articles/religion_church_nazi.html

the list goes on......

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I'd say that while Christianity was an important part of Nazism - and even more so with other fascist regimes, like Mussolini's and Franco's, which were much more clearly Christian, it'd be a dangerous exaggeration to try and say the two are inseparable, as if similar regimes couldn't be produced by pagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Heidnische_Front), Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai), Islamic, Hindu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiv_Sena) or even secular bourgeois ideology.

[Die Rote Fahne]

There are a lot of Christian interpretations. We got C-Street who think people like Hitler came to power because God willed it, and there are Communist Christians and Seculars and conservative etc.

Saying Christianity is inseperable from Nazism is like saying Atheism is inseperable from Communism just because Stalin and Lenin and Castro, etc were Atheist and such.

[Random Precision]

Basically what TUF said. There were a lot of things that went into Nazi ideology. Christianity is one of them to be sure, but it's a pretty warped version of Christianity that is quite far from the mainstream.

Also there is the fact that plenty of resisters to Nazism were religious or did so because of Christian motives. So Christianity was part of anti-fascism as well. Religions can be like that.

[Raúl Duke]

That may be the case of Hitler's national socialism but isn't fascism (the more broader category) itself have different relations to religion(s)?

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

I have no doubts that many nazis were ultra-conservative christian extremists, but I disagree with te statement that nazism and christianity are "inseparable".

Christianity itself, in its original, purest form, is totally different than the organised religion of today. The Catholic Church for example has nothing to do with the message Jesus gave.

I am not a Christian, but I am absolutely sure about the fact that Jesus was a very progressive and revolutionary figure in his time. He revolted against the Romans, and preached many leftist ideas. I don't totally agree with him, nor do I follow him, but he was not connected to right-wing policies whatsoever, and neither is his religion

And even the official "christianity" of today has many, many different forms, just look at Liberation Theology for example.

[Durruti's Ghost]

By saying that Christianity and Nazism were "inseparable", I'm pretty sure the OP means that Christianity was a fundamental part of Nazism, not that Nazism is a fundamental part of Christianity. :lol:

[spiltteeth]

The Occult had a much, much stronger influence on Nazism, in fact the Nazi's had a wholly occult interpretation of christianity, infusing it with magic, reincarnation, secret world kings etc.

What should be noted is the fact that many christian churches either turned a blind eye to what was happening or even embraced it.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

By saying that Christianity and Nazism were "inseparable", I'm pretty sure the OP means that Christianity was a fundamental part of Nazism, not that Nazism is a fundamental part of Christianity. :lol:
I know, and I was giving the reasons why I disagreed.

[Durruti's Ghost]

I know, and I was giving the reasons why I disagreed.

Then your reasons don't really make much sense. You cited examples of the progressive foundations of Christianity and progressive formulations of it that exist today. OK, but that doesn't serve as a counterexample to the claim that Christianity is an integral part of Nazism--to do that, you would have to point out non-Christian tendencies within Nazism (e.g., the occultism that others have mentioned). It would disprove that Nazism is an integral part of Christianity, though.

[Comrade Gwydion]

Is dissagree if the OP means that Nazism is a fundamental part in Christianity: In it's basic form, Christianity preaches equality, pacifism and many other beautifull things which clearly contradict Nazism.
However, the other way around is somewhat plausible. Especially when we change the subject from Nazism to Fascism: The Pope and Mussolini got along fine, and Franco throve on catholic support. He was seen, as mentioned above, as a 'crusader to restore christian values'.

And about paganism and nazism? I think the link is far less direct even. The only 'pagan' things that the Nazi's took were symbols of the ancient germanic culture, for obvious reasons. They did nothing with Pagan religion, pagan dogma, pagan societal structure or pagan authorities (as none of those excist).

I recall being very shocked a few months ago when I say this (http://www.sacreddivination.com/site_media/uploads/runes/Algiz.jpg)symbol being smashed on a poster saying "No Racism in our streets". It is a symbol I hold very, very dearly, but apparently the neo-nazi's have high-jacked it because its ancient germanic, and even though they probably don't care for pagan religion, they wear the symbol just to show how germanic they are.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I am not a Christian, but I am absolutely sure about the fact that Jesus was a very progressive and revolutionary figure in his time. He revolted against the Romans, and preached many leftist ideas. I don't totally agree with him, nor do I follow him, but he was not connected to right-wing policies whatsoever, and neither is his religion
How can you be absolutely sure? What reliable historical sources are you basing this on? I don't think we should try and reclaim some kind of "pure Christianity" as supporting Communism: it's a contradictory phenomenon and always has been. Usually a reactionary one as well.

[Sasha]

And about paganism and nazism? I think the link is far less direct even. The only 'pagan' things that the Nazi's took were symbols of the ancient germanic culture, for obvious reasons. They did nothing with Pagan religion, pagan dogma, pagan societal structure or pagan authorities (as none of those excist).

not completly true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahnenerbe

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Then your reasons don't really make much sense. You cited examples of the progressive foundations of Christianity and progressive formulations of it that exist today. OK, but that doesn't serve as a counterexample to the claim that Christianity is an integral part of Nazism--to do that, you would have to point out non-Christian tendencies within Nazism (e.g., the occultism that others have mentioned). It would disprove that Nazism is an integral part of Christianity, though.
Not quite, I believe.
The fact Christianity in its purest form was a progressive and rather revolutionary force, and the fact that it can be used for progressive, leftist policies as well, proves that it can't possibly be an integral, essential or inherent part of nazism.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

How can you be absolutely sure? What reliable historical sources are you basing this on? I don't think we should try and reclaim some kind of "pure Christianity" as supporting Communism: it's a contradictory phenomenon and always has been. Usually a reactionary one as well.
With absolutely sure I mean I'm convinced of that statement being true.
One of the sources I use to think what I said is Holy Blood, Holy Grail for example.
I personally think Jesus was a kind of revolutionary figure who led a rebellion of Jews against the Roman imperialist occupation.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Not quite, I believe.
The fact Christianity in its purest form was a progressive and rather revolutionary force, and the fact that it can be used for progressive, leftist policies as well, proves that it can't possibly be an integral, essential or inherent part of nazism.
As an anti-imperialist, I suppose you also think that nationalism can be used for progressive ends as well. Does that mean that nationalism can't also be an integral part of nazism?

With absolutely sure I mean I'm convinced of that statement being true.
One of the sources I use to think what I said is Holy Blood, Holy Grail for example.
I personally think Jesus was a kind of revolutionary figure who led a rebellion of Jews against the Roman imperialist occupation.
And I personally think that there are no really reliable historical records of what Jesus was like, the accounts we do have contradict each other, and so there's no real factual basis for trying to describe Jesus beyond what we might like imagining him to have been like.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Trying to tie down Nazism on Christianity (or atheism, for the matter) is a fool's game. Hitler's views on the matter were secondary to his nationalism and warped view of natural meritocracy - just like its economic policies, the Nazis pursued whatever religious outlet secured them power.

Mussolini's fascism might be a larger culprit.

[narcomprom]

The NSDAP inherited many anticlerical nationalist ideas that came up during the Kulturkampf of Otto von Bismark. That differed them quite strongly from the (equally antisemitic) conservative Zentrumspartei and all other anti-liberal rightwing movements of europe.

if you seek "ad hitlerum" arguments against the christians (that's fashionable isn't it?) look into the history of christian institutions in the reich. facts is that most protestant clerics chose to join the "Union of German Christians" promoting racist theological ideas while the catholic church had pursued a policy of keeping the mouth shut except when hitler invaded it's home turf. in 1937 pamphlet "Mit Brennender Sorge" the only thing he finds to criticise are Hitler's attacks on the church.

in the 1932 reichskonkordat the pope traded cleric immunity, church tax and mandatory religious schooling for a mandatory state loyalty oath for his agents. in a memo the present bishops were excplicitly asked to shut up about the jews.

[ComradeMan]

Of course the one flaw with all of it was that Jesus was a Jew. In fact, the Nazis had a programme of "de-judaisising" the Bible at one point.

[A.R.Amistad]

There are a lot of Christian interpretations. We got C-Street who think people like Hitler came to power because God willed it, and there are Communist Christians and Seculars and conservative etc.

Saying Christianity is inseperable from Nazism is like saying Atheism is inseperable from Communism just because Stalin and Lenin and Castro, etc were Atheist and such.


I can see that the point of my argument was misunderstood. I said Christianity was inseparable from Nazism, not that Nazism was inseparable from Christianity. I am not saying that Christianity is inherently fascist or Nazi, but that National Socialism as an ideology cannot be truly legitamite without Christianity as a basis. Now, about Paganism and such. Sure, there are a few Neo-Nazis who claim to be Pagans, but you will find that these people are simply the fringes of National Socialism and are not representative of its true threat. Take for example "National Socialist Heavy Metal" for example. Its a new trend, and to big metalheads like me it is truly disturbing, but all it is is a bunch of disenfranchised youth using a great music culture for something stupid that they know nothing about, just to piss off their teachers, parents, classmates, etc. But actual Nazi groups and individuals who do pose a threat to society, such as Aryan Nations, David Duke, NSM, etc. alll of which are National Socialist and fndamentalist Christian. You can't have true National Socialism without the concept of Christianity. Why? Because the goal of National Socialism is to create a society completely under the domination of the most reactionary and conservative form of European culture, and that means Christianity as a religion, was supposed to dominate the world.

Splitteeth

The Occult had a much, much stronger influence on Nazism, in fact the Nazi's had a wholly occult interpretation of christianity, infusing it with magic, reincarnation, secret world kings etc.

What should be noted is the fact that many christian churches either turned a blind eye to what was happening or even embraced it.


Again this is false. The occult played a very minute role in Nazism. This is very dangerous thinking, because it is history as told by revisionist Christians who seek to wipe their hands clean of the blood of the Nazis and fascism. No offense is intended to comrade Splitteeth and his religious convictions, and I have nothing against Christians and think they are a vital part to our revolution. But you have to be able to realize when even your own religion has parts of its past when it was not innocent. And to say the church simply "turned a blind eye" to what the Nazis did is a dangerous understatement. They openly legitimized the Nazi regime and gave it life, and Hitler likewise was very much indebted to the Church for its inspiration on him. The idea of magic being attributed to the Nazi ideology is largely a hoax based off of Himmler's convictions, but Himmler was repromanded by Hitler, Goebbels and other leaders of the Nazi movement, like I said before.

[narcomprom]

They openly legitimized the Nazi regime and gave it life, and Hitler likewise was very much indebted to the Church for its inspiration on him.
Indeed, so he claims in the Mein Kampf to have picked up antisemitism from the Christian Social Party in Vienna. Their christian moralism was naturally supplemented by tirades against materialists and Jews.

[Lodestar]

Not sure about this, but didn't Nazis think that Christianity is too weak a religion and some form of paganism is ideal for the Aryan race?

I believe this was the opinion of the Nazi elite; I know that they were engaging in all sorts of bizarre religious practices (look up the Thule Society, for instance...)

However, the fact that Nazism played off of Christian theological pretenses and teachings (particularly regarding Jews and "traditional values") is a concrete historical fact; Nazism was made possible by centuries of Christian dogma taking root in the minds of Germans. When we see the works of Luther, and the things he wrote of Jews and heretics, it's fairly easy to see where Hitler got (at least some of) his inspiration.

[A.R.Amistad]

The Thule society basically disbanded after Hitler came to power I believe. They played only a minor role in his philosophy, don't let their swastika fool you. :)

[Luís Henrique]

There were Catholic Nazis (Hitler, Goebbels), Protestant Nazis (Goering, Speer), Pagan Nazis (Rosenberg, Himmler) and atheist Nazis (Bormann, Ley). It never seemed to bother their party and their unity. It was, after all, a political movement, with political goals, not a religious movement with religious goals. They dealt with the political aspects of the religious (Catholic, Protestant) stablishment in political ways ("co-ordination").

Neither was Christianity an inseparable part of Nazism, nor was militant atheism an inseparable part of fighting against Nazism.

Luís Henrique

[A.R.Amistad]

Id seriously question how open Nazis were allowed to be about their atheism. Hitler hated atheists and sent many to the concentration camps. He even describes "Jewish atheism" as a threat to the world in Mien Kampf. The Nazis sought to unite Christianity under the nationalist "positive Christianity" and abolish the distinction between Catholic and Protestant.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

...

It's not the responcibility of anyone here or elsewhere to try to paint blood on the hands of Christians for the actions of Nazi leadership anymore than conservatives should claim "social democracy" (and by implication, social democrats) is tied at the hip with Nazism.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I believe this was the opinion of the Nazi elite; I know that they were engaging in all sorts of bizarre religious practices (look up the Thule Society, for instance...)

However, the fact that Nazism played off of Christian theological pretenses and teachings (particularly regarding Jews and "traditional values") is a concrete historical fact; Nazism was made possible by centuries of Christian dogma taking root in the minds of Germans. When we see the works of Luther, and the things he wrote of Jews and heretics, it's fairly easy to see where Hitler got (at least some of) his inspiration.

You conveniently ignore a simple fact: that in the Western world hatred of Jews reaches far beyond the founding of Christianity and compromised a societal - not specifically religious - perspective. Pagans (broadly defined) and atheists and Christians and Muslims all have a history of contempt for Jews. The religion tends to be a scapegoat for ethnic issues.

[A.R.Amistad]

You conveniently ignore a simple fact: that in the Western world hatred of Jews reaches far beyond the founding of Christianity and compromised a societal - not specifically religious - perspective. Pagans (broadly defined) and atheists and Christians and Muslims all have a history of contempt for Jews. The religion tends to be a scapegoat for ethnic issues.


Yes, this is true, but we are only talking about the Nazis here, not antisemitism as a whole. Might I add that Christianity has also been used for Social Darwinism, racism and antisocialism, so antisemitism is not the only issue here.