Today's Youth

[ComradeMan]

I don't know if it's just me, but I get the impression that whole swathes of the under 25 age group in the so-called West have been poisoned against anything remotely leftwing.

Perhaps I'm getting old, but don't you notice that whereas Youth Culture once had its El Che, its Bob Marley, its "children of the revolution"- even if they were not taken deep to heart by many, today's 1990's generation have nothing of the sort at all?

Furthermore, the collapse of the Eastern Block and the fact that El Che has turned into something used by capitalists to sell t-shirts along with what I perceive to be an ever more cynical and materialistic culture being sold to the youth in their cellphone, virtual reality, designer label world all seem to contribute to a lack of interest or knowledge of anything other than mainstream capitalism which is perceived as the norm.

I accept that this is essentially a generalisation, but the McDonald's generation- other than being perhaps more environmentally conscious, seem to be so disinterested... not all, but most. What worries me too are the increasing rightwing (extreme) tendencies that seem to be emerging everywhere!!

In my experience of the Italian student movement, I did get the sneaking suspicion that much was actually a fashion whilst at the atheneum and that these otherwise "bourgeois" children soon grew out of their ideology as soon as they graduated...

Is this the same where you live? Is it me? Is it localised?

Would be interested to hear your thoughts.

O tempora, o mores!!!

[Pogue]

I think you hit it on the head with cynicism and materialism mate.

[proudcomrade]

In the US, I have noticed a weird disconnect among them. They are very much leftist in the neoliberal/democracy/identity-politics sense; but at the same time, they do love their expensive technological gadgets and branded products. They walk around in designer-label "organic" clothing, texting into $600 handheld devices about how to rescue Africa. Then again, I suppose that that sums up neoliberalism pretty well, anyway, so, perhaps it isn't really such a disconnect after all.

In many ways, I feel sorry for the generations born after me ('70s baby, 30 today); even while doted on and provided with so much, they have also been jerked around and filled with more dysfunction and contradiction than even we former "latchkey kids" could even imagine. Their creature comforts are not sparing them from their mental suffering.

[cb9's_unity]

To be fair, Bob Marley is coming back in style...

Being someone under 25 (19) my experience is that kids are less left-wing and simply more ignorant and apathetic about politics. At best they learn to recite the words of their favorite pundits and at worst they deplore any sort of ventures into politics. As for their opinions on leftism, like other political positions they just don't want to here anything about it.

[gorillafuck]

In the US, I have noticed a weird disconnect among them. They are very much leftist in the neoliberal/democracy/identity-politics sense; but at the same time, they do love their expensive technological gadgets and branded products.
Leftist in the neoliberal sense?

Huh?:confused:

[Frantz Fanon]

my fellows youths sicken me, i am filled with contemp at them, but then again i do live in a community with dealers robbers and last week a guy was beaten to death for wearing a pink shirt.
They are so unaware that what the government does affects them they dont care about anything other than weed coke pills larger and guns:(

[redasheville]

I don't know if it's just me, but I get the impression that whole swathes of the under 25 age group in the so-called West have been poisoned against anything remotely leftwing.

Perhaps I'm getting old, but don't you notice that whereas Youth Culture once had its El Che, its Bob Marley, its "children of the revolution"- even if they were not taken deep to heart by many, today's 1990's generation have nothing of the sort at all?

Furthermore, the collapse of the Eastern Block and the fact that El Che has turned into something used by capitalists to sell t-shirts along with what I perceive to be an ever more cynical and materialistic culture being sold to the youth in their cellphone, virtual reality, designer label world all seem to contribute to a lack of interest or knowledge of anything other than mainstream capitalism which is perceived as the norm.

I accept that this is essentially a generalisation, but the McDonald's generation- other than being perhaps more environmentally conscious, seem to be so disinterested... not all, but most. What worries me too are the increasing rightwing (extreme) tendencies that seem to be emerging everywhere!!

In my experience of the Italian student movement, I did get the sneaking suspicion that much was actually a fashion whilst at the atheneum and that these otherwise "bourgeois" children soon grew out of their ideology as soon as they graduated...

Is this the same where you live? Is it me? Is it localised?

Would be interested to hear your thoughts.

O tempora, o mores!!!

According to a poll done earlier this year, half of people in the US under 30 years old question capitalism.

People don't radicalize in a vacuum, they radicalize through struggle. People that have grown up in a period of history where there has been a low level of stuggle shouldn't be expected to gravitate toward radical ideas simply because they're there.

The good news is that this is more or less a subjective matter, and people may radicalize yet. The fight against budget cuts in California is radicalizing people as we speak.

[The Red Next Door]

yeah, we're in america, people including me can't get off there phone and hurry up to buy the next game system.

i know i failed myself as a libertarian communist

[proudcomrade]

Leftist in the neoliberal sense?

Huh?:confused:

Think Democratic Underground, Young Turks, and the "Stuff White People Like" blog. There are varying degrees of political ideology. A leftist can technically fall anywhere from full-on Marxism-Leninism at one point, to just left-of-centrist on another.

[Comrade Ian]

Take a stroll down to any UC campus these days and chances aren't bad you'll run into a few hundred people marching somewhere and an occupation, with all sorts of radical ideas and literature floating about .(Mostly Anarchist and "The Coming Insurrection" influenced from what I've seen, though the Anarchists tend to try to bury and/or throw away and/or burn any ISO and socialist literature I try to put up, which would make me mad if the hypocrisy didn't make me smile)

[Robocommie]

I think you have to consider that in the 60s and 70s in America, there was a major draft going on, which helped polarize things significantly. I think the credit crisis and the economic collapse that went with it has done a lot to disenchant people with capitalism, to the point where assholes like Glenn Beck on the right are trying to capitalize on it, and I think we in the Left are going to get our increasing share of members as well. I myself have seen three of the friends in my inner circle move substantially to the left in the wake of the economic crisis.

I think in general though, the US is going to stay radicalized for a little while. It's Bush. He got everyone, both right and left, all hot and bothered. He put a little blood in the water, and all the sharks came out.

[CELMX]

I don't know if it's just me, but I get the impression that whole swathes of the under 25 age group in the so-called West have been poisoned against anything remotely leftwing.

Perhaps I'm getting old, but don't you notice that whereas Youth Culture once had its El Che, its Bob Marley, its "children of the revolution"- even if they were not taken deep to heart by many, today's 1990's generation have nothing of the sort at all?

Furthermore, the collapse of the Eastern Block and the fact that El Che has turned into something used by capitalists to sell t-shirts along with what I perceive to be an ever more cynical and materialistic culture being sold to the youth in their cellphone, virtual reality, designer label world all seem to contribute to a lack of interest or knowledge of anything other than mainstream capitalism which is perceived as the norm.

I accept that this is essentially a generalisation, but the McDonald's generation- other than being perhaps more environmentally conscious, seem to be so disinterested... not all, but most. What worries me too are the increasing rightwing (extreme) tendencies that seem to be emerging everywhere!!

In my experience of the Italian student movement, I did get the sneaking suspicion that much was actually a fashion whilst at the atheneum and that these otherwise "bourgeois" children soon grew out of their ideology as soon as they graduated...

Is this the same where you live? Is it me? Is it localised?

Would be interested to hear your thoughts.

O tempora, o mores!!!

AMEN, brother! i totally hear ya out on that one!
Our society has completely turned upside down, materialists are ruling the world:(.
People are talking about saving African children, and saving the environment, but also they spend thousands on apparel, music devices, cellphones, etc. that come straight from sweatshops that pollute our planet!!! And they BRAG about being capitalist! how fucked up is that?!!?

No one that I know cares about politics anymore! They're all just submerged into their sex-obsessed culture, filled with text messaging and "cool" drugs. *sigh*:(

And when anyone (meaning, me) tries to communicate w/ them about important shit, like politics, they just shut they're ears.

However, good news is, I'm not seeing any far right action!! yay!!:D (well, that is, in America, where I live...)

Oh, and the above, I experience every day - being under 25 (14)...and a freshman DX

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Take a stroll down to any UC campus these days and chances aren't bad you'll run into a few hundred people marching somewhere and an occupation, with all sorts of radical ideas and literature floating about .(Mostly Anarchist and "The Coming Insurrection" influenced from what I've seen, though the Anarchists tend to try to bury and/or throw away and/or burn any ISO and socialist literature I try to put up, which would make me mad if the hypocrisy didn't make me smile)
That's kind of impressive, although it'd be nice if their politics were influenced by something better than "The Coming Insurrection." Still, it depends on where you are to a great extent - I haven't noticed anyone complaining about the apathy of Greek youth.

[ComradeMan]

It seems it may depend on where and when...

[Bloody Kalashnikov]

Some are lost to capitalism and consumerism that they are beyond redemption, some are so mired in poverty they only think of paying the rent some are just plain capitalised morons who love the PSgeneration and aspire to be nothing more than something they invest in

[Bloody Kalashnikov]

Some of us are organising, not sitting around complaining, and yes there were more left wingers in the seventies, and they let my generation down by losing their petential and getting in bed with the bourgeois.

[Holden Caulfield]

Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.”
Socrates c.380 BCE

Dam kids

[Rjevan]

It's the same in Germany, many around my age hold some wishy-washy basic leftist beliefs which result in (passively, of course :lol:) supporting the Greens. Even Die Linke is already seen as party of "embarrassing DDR socialists" or simply lunatics, not to speak of communism, god, if you talk to the average "leftist" boy or girl about communism they stare at you as if you were an alien, lessoning you that communism is an evil nazi system that caused millions of dead and forces you to work 24 hours a day if you don't want to get shot. If they are a bit more educated they'll respond with a knowing and superior smile that the theory is nice and well but totally utopian and foolish, reminds of land of milk and honey fairy tales and can never be applied to real life.

Just a week ago a friend of mine, who is undecided between SPD and Greens told me that Die Linke would not even be that bad in his eyes but he will never join them "because they have a Communist Platform! Honestly, with such weirdos a party can be nothing but suck."... the Communist Platform is the only part of Die Linke which keeps them from becoming totally SPD II but well, arguing with this guy is only recommended if you are a hardcore masochist, so I said nothing.

And I am dead sure most of those who now try to lesson you about social welfare and alternative energies will become bourgeois again once they have studied and see that society offers many comforts if they conform to it, a task which won't be too hard by then after they had their fun and managed to seduce the sexy girl from Greenpeace. And as we all know: "Communism is unrealistic and utopian and one has to frown up, face the facts and align oneself to reality in order to achieve something in life."...

[Segmund]

I definitely agree with you. I'm apart of this generation, yet apart of a very small and lonely minority.

I've sort of found two very disturbing types of conservatives emerging in my generation. The first being internet junkies, some of my peers who spend a lot (read more than 30 hours) of time on the internet. These internet folk seem to function on efficiency and number, taking the social elements out of the equation. This logic somehow leads them to the right (though I can see room for some of them coming to the left, their exodus to the right is just in my experience).
The second is a very angry reactionary sect, who even go so far as to rejecting some technology. These tend to be men, who accept the ideas that are sold to them of manliness from the beer ads and the gun ads. The reason for this kind of conservativism seems more obvious and odious as well.

This is just my observation of the problem of my generation.

[El Rojo]

yup, ill second that. the kids round where I live make me despair. The only thing that is always "in" is apathy. Actively appearing to care is embarrasing uncool. They all get given cars by thier rents when they pass thier test, so much consumer shit that it is comming out of thier arse. "The govt are shit, politics is shit, i don't give a fuck" is as fear as you will get with most. The poorer ones fuck off school for a minimum wage life, the richer ones who get pushed by thier rents go to uni to be lifestylist bohemians. they are so locked in to capitalism, they can't see fuck all. all we have to look on positively is apathy. but i haven't given up hope yet.

[ComradeMan]

So they we are raising a generation of apathetic, self-serving, nihilistic materialists?:(

[ZeroNowhere]

Eh, not much wrong with them. But then again, I have no problem with people liking to eat in McDonalds, or buying stuff, so that could factor in here. The Obamaites do get annoying, though, but that's hardly something restricted to kids/teenagers. Otherwise, they're often pretty decent people.


According to a poll done earlier this year, half of people in the US under 30 years old question capitalism.It is worth noting that the poll left 'capitalism' undefined, so in all likelihood significantly less than half of people in the US under 30 years old are questioning capitalism.


I think in general though, the US is going to stay radicalized for a little while. It's Bush. He got everyone, both right and left, all hot and bothered. He put a little blood in the water, and all the sharks came out.Indeed! Look at the anti-war movement he spawned... Wait, where did they go?


And as we all know: "Communism is unrealistic and utopian and one has to frown up, face the facts and align oneself to reality in order to achieve something in life."...To be fair, this is mainly propagated through schools and such, and taught by, well, the older generation. So not quite confined to the youth, either.

[rednordman]

So they we are raising a generation of apathetic, self-serving, nihilistic materialists?:(:(Afraid so. After all that is exactly what the capitalist establishments want isnt it really? Its exactly the same thing as what happened with all of the economics systems which hoped to dominate the world. They do not give a shit so long as people are 'passive' , 'apolitical' and 'play by the rules'.

The only difference of capitalism compared to other systems is that in the wealthiest countries, there hasnt openly been oppression (i stress openly). People seem to believe that they have 'freedom', when infact, if we all are 'free' is very overrated (freedom to pollute your body and soul), and in alot of cases dangerous (crime and corruption).

Trust me, if everyone in the country was all of a sudden to develop a marxist or anarchist conciousness, and get active, then we would no longer have our 'freedom' in the western sense. Then would be the point at which capitalism would be exposed for all to see it for what it really is.

It think when we strip everything bare, youth of today really are getting bread to be like sheep on the capitalist farm. This even includes interllectuals now also. They to are educated to fit a role, that authorites and buisness can easially control and manipulate. They are allowed to go far and have freedom of speech to give the impression to the public, that we really are free and have our voice. I suppose in theory we do, but the truth is that no one at the top of the ladder really listens or cares.

[the last donut of the night]

As a youth myself, I understand the apathy and frustrations the members here are posting. Many youth are apathetic; they don't care, or if they do, most likely they don't agree with us.

However, a distinction has to be made. In poorer communities, if you talk to young people, they'll say, "Nobody has ever cared about me. The system doesn't care, my teachers didn't, my father didn't. There is no better world; it's either a continual struggle against hunger or the gangs." Guess which one a lot of them pick?

In rich communities, it's much different. They'll say, "Oh, we can't do anything about it, because people are naturally greedy. Let's just go on living our decadent lives." Ironically, it's always the winners in capitalism that complain about other people's greed when they're the greedy masters.

This distinction is important to us because the rich kids don't know what it's like to starve, to go to school and not feel safe, or to not have a future. The working class kids do.

And although they seem to not care, they do have the rage and the anger, which if directed in the right way, will show us the power of the American proletariat. It is our job to not fuck this up.

We must spend our time in the ghetto, the rural backwoods, the forgotten suburb. The youth are our future, what else can we do?

[9]

I notice there isn't a single mention of class in this thread, which I think is problematic - especially with all the statements being thrown around about "kids these days are so materialistic, so much consumerism, they get their thousand dollar gadgets, their parents buy them a car for doing well on a test, designer label clothing" etc. etc. It seems clear to me that the kids which this thread is concerned with are probably not of the working class. In which case, what do you expect? Why should bourgeois kids be interested in communism or the emancipation of the working class? Why does it matter what bourgeois kids are interested in, anyway?
Which isn't to say working class kids are very politically engaged either, but I think the causes of their apathy are quite different than those listed in this thread.

I have more to add to this, but I'm short on time so I'll return to it later.

[rednordman]

I notice there isn't a single mention of class in this thread, which I think is problematic - especially with all the statements being thrown around about "kids these days are so materialistic, so much consumerism, they get their thousand dollar gadgets, their parents buy them a car for doing well on a test, designer label clothing" etc. etc. It seems clear to me that the kids which this thread is concerned with are probably not of the working class. In which case, what do you expect? Why should bourgeois kids be interested in communism or the emancipation of the working class? Why does it matter what bourgeois kids are interested in, anyway?
Which isn't to say working class kids are very politically engaged either, but I think the causes of their apathy are quite different than those listed in this thread.

I have more to add to this, but I'm short on time so I'll return to it later.I think its fair to say that we are all referring mainly to working class youth. Obviously, they are not all the same, but I think if you where to find some general concensus, than most of youth would generally cringe at the thought of believing in anything out of fear of what others will think. This is why reactionary and conservative idiologies are so popular. Its easier to follow the status quo when it is the one ruling the world and has nearly zero opposition.

[jake williams]

I notice there isn't a single mention of class in this thread, which I think is problematic - especially with all the statements being thrown around about "kids these days are so materialistic, so much consumerism, they get their thousand dollar gadgets, their parents buy them a car for doing well on a test, designer label clothing" etc. etc. It seems clear to me that the kids which this thread is concerned with are probably not of the working class. In which case, what do you expect? Why should bourgeois kids be interested in communism or the emancipation of the working class? Why does it matter what bourgeois kids are interested in, anyway?
Which isn't to say working class kids are very politically engaged either, but I think the causes of their apathy are quite different than those listed in this thread.

I have more to add to this, but I'm short on time so I'll return to it later.
Fucking yes.

I'd actually like to give a pretty long response to this thread, but it would be irresponsible on my part, there's really a lot else I should be doing. I'll just say in brief, other than agreeing with the above:

Most of the thread so far is grumbly reactionary tripe about "kids these days", something serious people should know better than to engage in. Ludicrously it blames "the youth" for any of the real tendencies identified - more consumerism, less serious radicalism, and particularly a radicalism divorced from class struggle. The latter is implicit, and as Apikoros pointed out, it's hypocritical to object to a movement's rejection of class struggle if you don't have a class analysis of that movement.

The class context of the student movement - which if we're talking about youth politics is mostly what we're talking about, because for the most part youth not in universities are not organized in unions and when they are they have very little representation there, and also because the left in general has rejected working with working class youth in favour of working with the hip and well-cultured young people found in universities - the class context of the student movement is pretty messy. It's been reasonably convincingly argued that a major reason there was a spike of youth radicalism in the late 60s and early 70s was that the baby boom and postwar economic boom broke the class monopoly on universities. What hasn't been analyzed nearly so well as it needs to be to understand contemporary circumstances is the violent counterrevolution fought by the ruling class in the wake of this radical break.

This counterrevolution took a lot of forms. It took the form of state terrorism, just murdering radicals such as the Black Panthers. It took a lot of more complex forms though, and these are probably more important in the long run. There was a fierce effort to rout radicalism, and subvert it away from class struggle toward the "individualist" silliness we see today. This was concurrent with a general rise in mass propaganda, mostly through advertising but also through a bigger corporate media etc.

[BogdanV]

Before anything else, the following statement is based upon the contact I've had with people around me and by studying diverse communities on the internet, and, with regards to reality, can be considered subjective. Also, the following strictly represents the situation in my place of origin as I don't have a opinion of foreign situations :

I personally face a very troublesome generation as I'm part of it (17). Youth are really apathetic and, rich or poor, they all want their rebook shoes, converse crap and all this designer stuff.
Also, as others pointed it out, it is considered very "uncool" to talk about changing the system or to stand against it. There have been times when people laughed at me or went totally silent when I started talking about radically changing the way things work today.
Its always cool to laugh about how everything's crap and its equally cool to laugh about those who speak against bourgeois democracy, be it fascists or communists.

Sadly, the only person I can have a decent conversation about politics is a fucking neo-liberal atheist. You can't imagine what a discussion I had with him against sweatshops, especially since he's a fan of Penn&Teller.

Either we have brainwashed intellectuals, nihilists or bloody don't-give-a-fuck opportunists!
Its easier to climb the ladder in capitalism than to overthrow it.

PS: On a unrelated (off-topic) note, its amazing how respectable intellectuals, who you'd expect they'd know a wee bit more about the world, don't know basic stuff like the very core meaning of communism : all means of production in the hands of the proletariat.
Where on Earth did we see factories run by workers ?! Yet people claim that the Eastern Block was communist and are very sure about it. So sure that they try to convince you about it!

[piet11111]

the apathy is a result of feeling powerless but that can quickly change to anger.

either way historically most revolutions happened at the times that they seemed least likely.

[the last donut of the night]

either way historically most revolutions happened at the times that they seemed least likely.

I doubt that. Most revolutions has strong class-struggle frictions leading up to them; it wasn't instantaneous. I may be wrong, however, and if more experienced members could enlighten me on this, that'd be great.

[ComradeMan]

With regard to the class comment above, from my own personal experience it seems that the so-called bourgeois kids are the ones who are more likely to be sympathetic towards socialist ideas where the working class kids often seem to be dangerously pushed to the right- there seems to be a terrible irony in this. The places I have noticed the strongest leftest tendencies are the universities where most of the students come from an upper-working to middle-class background. Obviously this comment is tempered by the acceptance of various universities and differences between countries too. The young working class of today, if we can speak of such a thing, seem to feel let down and to be disinterested in general. These kids are too young to fully appreciate things like labour movements and unions and probably hear the embittered comments of their parents too.

I think that talking of class is difficult with the younger generations, as stated above they ALL want their Converse (ha ha, I was forced to wear Converse when they were the cheapest you could get because my mother wouldn't waste money on "sports shoes"- now they are a status symbol apparantly).

What worries more is video games. I know it sounds far-out, but have you ever taken a look at the violent-filth that is promoted as video-entertainment. I cite these games that have names running like "War Stike Terror 3" etc... etc... Not good. I cite gangster rap as another example, the Watts Prophets were singing about real issues and had a message whereas the new generation spew misogynistic, violent, criminal-capitalist and homophobic as well as racist venom and then the adults wonder why kids are so violent and so on. Just two hobby-horses of mine but whereas we played space invaders or pong kids now have extremely violent and graphic games in which the only message is you win by violence; whereas Bob Marley was a role model 30 years ago singing a fundamentally peaceful and friendly message to the world- what have we got now? *****es and glocks... not good.:(

[DreamWeaver]

In the past month we have seen university occupations in Greece, The US, Germany, Poland and the Netherlands. Our ranks gain people (mostly adolescents and people in their twenties) thanks to governments becoming more rightwing, combined with economic crisis. The era's of mass demonstrations, insurrectionary battles and even revolutionary situations have always been preceded by economic downfall, goverment repression and insecurity. We will get stronger day by day and will bare witness to another few years of opportunity, this is only the beginning.

[ComradeMan]

In the past month we have seen university occupations in Greece, The US, Germany, Poland and the Netherlands. Our ranks gain people (mostly adolescents and people in their twenties) thanks to governments becoming more rightwing, combined with economic crisis. The era's of mass demonstrations, insurrectionary battles and even revolutionary situations have always been preceded by economic downfall, goverment repression and insecurity. We will get stronger day by day and will bare witness to another few years of opportunity, this is only the beginning.

Notice, it is the university students here...

[jake williams]

Notice, it is the university students here...
Until I get some more free time to properly respond - they've also had some of the biggest waves of high school occupations that I've ever heard of.

[RHIZOMES]

II've sort of found two very disturbing types of conservatives emerging in my generation. The first being internet junkies, some of my peers who spend a lot (read more than 30 hours) of time on the internet. These internet folk seem to function on efficiency and number, taking the social elements out of the equation. This logic somehow leads them to the right (though I can see room for some of them coming to the left, their exodus to the right is just in my experience).

Well, the sheer amount of reading I did from the ridiculous amount of time I spend on the internet (rather than switching my brain off and telling whatever the TV told me) turned me into a communist. it was just the logically made the most sense, and was the most morally consistent political ideology I found.

But then again the reason I spent so much time on the internet is a bit different to a lot of other people... I had a childhood and upbringing that naturally gravitated me to spending an unhealthy amount of time on computers, my family moved to the semi-rural edge of our city, because even at 5 I was getting in trouble due to all the corrosive influences that are sadly present in many poorer working-class suburbs, and also my mother got assaulted by a neighbour. After I left the primary school that was just down the road from our new house, to go to intermediate/high school (which was further away), it sort of retarded my social development a bit (now that I look back) since it disconnected me from the wider community severely. Nothing of real interest was within walking distance of my house, so I just started going on the internet a lot.

Thanks capitalism!

But yeah, I do know the type of kids you refer to. Due to our mutual computer nerdiness, most of them were my school friends! When I became a communist they were always fucking going on about all this obscure bourgeois economic theory at me 24/7 and had a very high level of chauvinism towards workers and socio-economically disadvantaged minorities.


Before anything else, the following statement is based upon the contact I've had with people around me and by studying diverse communities on the internet, and, with regards to reality, can be considered subjective. Also, the following strictly represents the situation in my place of origin as I don't have a opinion of foreign situations :

I personally face a very troublesome generation as I'm part of it (17). Youth are really apathetic and, rich or poor, they all want their rebook shoes, converse crap and all this designer stuff.
Also, as others pointed it out, it is considered very "uncool" to talk about changing the system or to stand against it. There have been times when people laughed at me or went totally silent when I started talking about radically changing the way things work today.
Its always cool to laugh about how everything's crap and its equally cool to laugh about those who speak against bourgeois democracy, be it fascists or communists.

Sadly, the only person I can have a decent conversation about politics is a fucking neo-liberal atheist. You can't imagine what a discussion I had with him against sweatshops, especially since he's a fan of Penn&Teller.

Either we have brainwashed intellectuals, nihilists or bloody don't-give-a-fuck opportunists!
Its easier to climb the ladder in capitalism than to overthrow it.

Wow, it sounds like you're having an exact repeat of my high school socialist years. :p Although the token neo-liberal I'd have arguments with, they weren't decent conversations at all. Every time we'd finish an angry left vs. right argument I'd feel dumber, getting exposed once again to his sheer ignorance cloaked in lots of big fancy (but meaningless) numbers he lifted straight from Year 12 Economics and a totally pompous air of authority.

[ComradeMan]

Until I get some more free time to properly respond - they've also had some of the biggest waves of high school occupations that I've ever heard of.

Weird isn't it...?

[Matty_UK]

I don't think we need be too worried or surprised that it seems to be predominantly university students who become interested in socialism - being educated can help you understand capitalism better, and having the time to study marxist ideas and access to a university library isn't something to be sniffed at.

The Black Panthers were started by smart working class black guys who'd been to University and returned to the ghetto to their friends and family with an articulate critique of racism and capitalism and a coherent plan of action. Lenin was from a wealthy land owning family and was well read enough to understand political economy. The beginnings of the Chinese Revolution were found in student radicals, who then brought progressive ideas to the countryside. Historically, it has been the skilled workers with the most active approach to trade unions.

The universities are significant; the poorest proletarians are more likely to revolt when they're pushed to or when an opportunity opens up, but are relatively unlikely to hold consistently socialist views compared to more educated proletarians. Furthermore, in western countries around half of young people, sometimes more, go to university, and most of these will be proletarians afterwards. Having an educated proletariat is a precondition for socialism, and it shouldn't be too surprising that this sector of the proletariat is the most ideologically advanced and progressive.

We need to understand that the transition to socialism in the west isn't going to be burly steel workers rising up - it's more like capitalism has trained up a proletariat educated, comfortable, and confident enough to cut out the capitalist middleman who is increasingly a burden on social progress, and an increasingly small demographic. I think a big step forward for the left would be when we stop feeling guilty about having a university education, stop trying to imagine we're speaking on behalf of people far worse off than ourselves which is patronising, and realise we ARE the gravediggers of capitalism, even if we aren't working in a sweatshop and living in squalor. Remember, the bourgoisie didn't revolt against feudalism because they were starving- it was because they grew in confidence and strength.

We're still imaging it's the 70s, where the bulk of us really were factory workers, and still use the same imagery and symbolism. Only when we stop doing this will we look less like a dead movement lingering on in obscurity before our inevitable death, which is how most people see us.

[ComradeMan]

We're still imaging it's the 70s, where the bulk of us really were factory workers, and still use the same imagery and symbolism. Only when we stop doing this will we look less like a dead movement lingering on in obscurity before our inevitable death, which is how most people see us.


And where I currently reside that never has been the reality much anyway. Good post and good points.

[Ultra-Violence]

Im goana give my 2 cents about the youth of today sure thier are lots of kids who dont care and thats ok because they do care they just dont see the point. My gripe is with the Kids who "Care" their not ANYBETTER! all these fucking anarchist think about is the vegan lifestlye and train hoping to Oregon! The Revolutionary cultre in this country has faded into just a counter culture thats bite is worse than thier bark!

[cop an Attitude]

It's a generation living off of electricity, that thinks that the structures of life are so gigantic that it is just the way it is. Most have little to no perception of other cultural environments then their own, or see no global connect. Facebook made social interaction favor over intellect or self refection and made everyone each other's big brother. The saddest part is the apathy that this creates. Nobody cares for any exterior problems that don't effect themselves, waiting till it's too late. They think they can't make the future, nor care.

[Tiktaalik]

As a youth, to y'all hating on our generation: stfu

You don't know what you're talking about and you sound like regular baby-boomers with the "kids these days", "back in my day we knew what was up" arrogant bullshit. I wonder how much you spend on the computer instead of organizing.

There are some kids who give a fuck and some who don't. Those that don't aren't dismissable tho - ageism is a factor in most of our lives and many kids are constantly singled out and harassed by police and most authority figures and they are keenly aware of this: most kids I know, even the most jingoistic prick, say "FUCK THA POLICE" enthusiastically. In my experience, when you explain to them about how they're exploited in their jobs, which tend to be total wage-slave jobs paying them <$8/hr, they are totally down with hating on the management and stealing.

The kids out there are down as fuck, you just need to talk to them as a human being and not as a boring ass adult or some annoying fuckhead trying to push a platform on them.

Sure there's bad shit out there. Kids are homophobic sure, but our generation has been one of the most pro-queer in a long ass time, not to mention one of the first to be able to talk about white privilege openly.There's a lot of materialism yeah but that's a by-product of years of propaganda - American consumerism has been shoved down our throats since we were old enough to watch TV, and it's not like baby boomers aren't exactly the same way in regards to materialism. Some kids are capitalists but even the ones that identify as "libertarian" (right-wing) are generally confused and sometimes even well-intentioned but don't understand the implications behind "libertarian" praxis.

Don't forget all the left-wing activity of interest and potential have been primarily composed of youth!

Don't talk shit on us!

[dlm86]

As a youth, to y'all hating on our generation: stfu

You don't know what you're talking about and you sound like regular baby-boomers with the "kids these days", "back in my day we knew what was up" arrogant bullshit. I wonder how much you spend on the computer instead of organizing.

There are some kids who give a fuck and some who don't. Those that don't aren't dismissable tho - ageism is a factor in most of our lives and many kids are constantly singled out and harassed by police and most authority figures and they are keenly aware of this: most kids I know, even the most jingoistic prick, say "FUCK THA POLICE" enthusiastically. In my experience, when you explain to them about how they're exploited in their jobs, which tend to be total wage-slave jobs paying them <$8/hr, they are totally down with hating on the management and stealing.

The kids out there are down as fuck, you just need to talk to them as a human being and not as a boring ass adult or some annoying fuckhead trying to push a platform on them.

Sure there's bad shit out there. Kids are homophobic sure, but our generation has been one of the most pro-queer in a long ass time, not to mention one of the first to be able to talk about white privilege openly.There's a lot of materialism yeah but that's a by-product of years of propaganda - American consumerism has been shoved down our throats since we were old enough to watch TV, and it's not like baby boomers aren't exactly the same way in regards to materialism. Some kids are capitalists but even the ones that identify as "libertarian" (right-wing) are generally confused and sometimes even well-intentioned but don't understand the implications behind "libertarian" praxis.

Don't forget all the left-wing activity of interest and potential have been primarily composed of youth!

Don't talk shit on us!


Because stealing is going to help any of us in any way?

I am twenty three so I fall into this "younger" group I guess. Most of the things being said are true about us. Not all, but most. I think ultimately, we're just lazy. And when we do come together, we just want to 'fuck shit up.' it's kind of redundant.

But, how can anyone diss on us when the 60's and 70's did no different really? If anything, the shit they put into the minds of the 'otherside' just made any radical change look like kids getting stoned and burning things.

[Belisarius]

i myself qualify for youth (17 years old). in my experience most kids aren't interested in politics at all, but rather in making fun, partying and getting enough grades to get into the next form. but this still is a kind of "most people argument", there are plenty of exceptions. of these exceptions most are rightist (in flanders flemish nationalism is very popular with two major parties, Vlaams Belang, who a just a bunch of racists, and NVA, they're a bit smarter, but still). Leftism is most of the times seen as some kind of bad word and communism is even worse (but i think that's almost everywhere the case).

of course that doesn't mean left politics is dead, there are still plenty of good initiatives, but the public opinion is against us in belgium.

[cop an Attitude]

I think our generation (millennials for you neoliberals out there) are really dependant on a lot more things than other group before us. The future doesn't look too bright, and if our graduates are left unemployed, or if gobal warfare breaks out, ecomonic collapse, food, water and oil shortages; its not bombs pointed at eachother any more, it's an implosion. Some are more adaptable and clairvoyant than others but once the parties over, they're going to have a mighty hangover. When we finally start to realize that our future's fading, who knows what may happen.

[Jimmie Higgins]

According to a poll done earlier this year, half of people in the US under 30 years old question capitalism.

People don't radicalize in a vacuum, they radicalize through struggle. People that have grown up in a period of history where there has been a low level of stuggle shouldn't be expected to gravitate toward radical ideas simply because they're there.

The good news is that this is more or less a subjective matter, and people may radicalize yet. The fight against budget cuts in California is radicalizing people as we speak.

The post quoted above should have settled the whole discussion.

"Generational" generalizations are kind of silly to me anyway - there was nothing inherent in the generation of the 68 protests that made them "not lazy" or "not apathetic" or whatever... it was the circumstances faced by people at that time.

There is nothing inherently different between the 60s generation and today. In fact, the people who eventually participated in university strikes/occupations or sit-ins in the 60s probably listened to shit like "Fabian" (not related to the society) and watched Frankie and Anette movies and idolized JFK a few years earlier. Reading the memoirs or biographies of people from Malcolm X to Jerry Rubin, you'll see that most people started off "lazy" and conformist and basically not believing change was possible (Malcolm) or even necessary (many of the future student revolutionaries).

So the lack of radicalism with "these damn young people of today" is based on the objective circumstances in society right now... but there are subjective things we can do now to try and change this atmosphere. Far from being lazy or apathetic, I think most people now simply have no clue that change is possible or how to go about it... this leads to complacency or cynicism. For 10 years young people have seen movements that pop up and then seem to disappear or simply few movements at all. We need to being to show people how to fight and win - this is what happened with lunch-counter sit-in as well as how strike waves tend to begin. The small struggles today that win are potentially the one that will teach a new generation of workers and students how to organize themselves as well as show them how to be politically independent and militant.

[berlitz23]

Our generation's mantra: "I know very well...but at the same time..." Cynicism is the new fascism.

[Tiktaalik]

So the lack of radicalism with "these damn young people of today" is based on the objective circumstances in society right now... but there are subjective things we can do now to try and change this atmosphere. Far from being lazy or apathetic, I think most people now simply have no clue that change is possible or how to go about it... this leads to complacency or cynicism. For 10 years young people have seen movements that pop up and then seem to disappear or simply few movements at all. We need to being to show people how to fight and win - this is what happened with lunch-counter sit-in as well as how strike waves tend to begin. The small struggles today that win are potentially the one that will teach a new generation of workers and students how to organize themselves as well as show them how to be politically independent and militant.

Exactly. Most people are angry about shit but they don't realize their power to affect their situation - youth are extremely disempowered and disaffected in the states and most of us don't feel empowered to change things about ourselves. It's ludicrous, however, I hate people talking shit on my generation, esp. from faceless "revolutionaries" on the Internet that have likely done shit in regards to organizing, demonstrating or fucking shit up for the system.



And when we do come together, we just want to 'fuck shit up.' it's kind of redundant.


In many ways, this is the most sensational and empowering ways for folks to act. I am an insurrectionary anarchist however, yeah, I understand that stealing shit and breaking windows ain't gonna topple capitalism or seriously threaten the state or system. However, it is in these moments when the lines are drawn for many people - it is an empowering thing to finally do something that threatens the capitalist system in some way, to the point where they'll arrest and beat you for doing it. When a lot of people are "fucking shit up", it radicalizes those who do not already have an ideological basis for the action - they see the situation as it is: folks attacking capitalism and not allowing business as usual, while the inherent violence of the economy and the state retaliates. It shows that property and profit are more valuable than human beings and their emotions and ideals, a hell of a lot more than some stupid manageable leftist protest where no confrontation ever goes down and all you have is a marginal group of people holding signs with uninteresting and unoriginal slogans and chants that never accomplishes shit.

More often than not, the "radical" middle-class college student activist types who want revolution so so badly are the first ones to yell at and use force against the (predominately) working-class kids and kids without a political platform that attack corporations, police, and their buildings and symbols.



Because stealing is going to help any of us in any way?


You know what? There are certain things we all deserve that capitalism restricts from us and fuck off if you're gonna say I'm not doing anything positive if I steal shit I need. As long as capitalism exists, I'll steal my food and clothing and shoes whenever I can.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Because stealing is going to help any of us in any way?

Like Tiktaalik says, it's hard to deny that stealing is actually quite a direct method whereby proletarians can help themselves to have stuff that they don't already have.

[Chambered Word]

In many ways, this is the most sensational and empowering ways for folks to act. I am an insurrectionary anarchist however, yeah, I understand that stealing shit and breaking windows ain't gonna topple capitalism or seriously threaten the state or system. However, it is in these moments when the lines are drawn for many people - it is an empowering thing to finally do something that threatens the capitalist system in some way, to the point where they'll arrest and beat you for doing it. When a lot of people are "fucking shit up", it radicalizes those who do not already have an ideological basis for the action - they see the situation as it is: folks attacking capitalism and not allowing business as usual, while the inherent violence of the economy and the state retaliates. It shows that property and profit are more valuable than human beings and their emotions and ideals, a hell of a lot more than some stupid manageable leftist protest where no confrontation ever goes down and all you have is a marginal group of people holding signs with uninteresting and unoriginal slogans and chants that never accomplishes shit.

Ever considered that pointless vandalism and looting can be destructive to the working class? I'm all for actual confrontation with capitalism, but terrorizing average people is self-destructive for our cause.


More often than not, the "radical" middle-class college student activist types who want revolution so so badly are the first ones to yell at and use force against the (predominately) working-class kids and kids without a political platform that attack corporations, police, and their buildings and symbols.

Here you go again with your stupid class generalizations. Not everyone who doesn't live in poverty is some sheltered little crybaby who's afraid of a confrontation. Seriously, what's the point of ranting like this all the time?


Sure there's bad shit out there. Kids are homophobic sure, but our generation has been one of the most pro-queer in a long ass time, not to mention one of the first to be able to talk about white privilege openly.

It's true that alot of kids are more hostile towards homophobia (and racism), but there is still a large composition of knuckle-dragging fuckwits in our youth (as there's always been). There's still a lot of apathy, but our generation has a lot of potential as well.

[RadioRaheem84]

Most youth today are anti-socialist Liberals (includes social democrats) or Right Libertarians. They think that the technological revolution, the smaller world, the art, the music, all came about because the creative power of the free market. Marxism, Communism, Anarchism have been denigrated to the aisle of forgotten or feared ideologies along with fascism and radical Islam. When I hear the youth speak, they say stuff like "it would be frightening to live in a world the jihadists want or the communists".

They don't mind socialism, so much as what they really think you mean is social democracy, Keynesianism, or progressive politics. So basically Liberalism is the reigning ideology among the unaffected youth. The youth effected by poverty tend to be nationalist.

Ugh, and what gets to me the most is that liberals have become so freaking smug that they're more annoying than right wing conservatives. At least right wingers are on the fringes of society while Liberals have the power in the West. They think that you don't need workers to be in control of the means of production. All you need is Bono to throw charity concerts, raise awareness, buy green and organic, fair trade and raise wages. It's given the rich elite an excuse to pretend to connect to the people while still being tax cheating sweatshop running moguls.

It's sickening and if we want to influence the youth, we have to first get them to stop thinking liberalism = moral superiority. As I have said before, while right wing jingoism is dangerous, liberalism (neo or not) is the real problem.

[RadioRaheem84]

As a youth, to y'all hating on our generation: stfu

You don't know what you're talking about and you sound like regular baby-boomers with the "kids these days", "back in my day we knew what was up" arrogant bullshit. I wonder how much you spend on the computer instead of organizing.

There are some kids who give a fuck and some who don't. Those that don't aren't dismissable tho - ageism is a factor in most of our lives and many kids are constantly singled out and harassed by police and most authority figures and they are keenly aware of this: most kids I know, even the most jingoistic prick, say "FUCK THA POLICE" enthusiastically. In my experience, when you explain to them about how they're exploited in their jobs, which tend to be total wage-slave jobs paying them <$8/hr, they are totally down with hating on the management and stealing.

The kids out there are down as fuck, you just need to talk to them as a human being and not as a boring ass adult or some annoying fuckhead trying to push a platform on them.

Sure there's bad shit out there. Kids are homophobic sure, but our generation has been one of the most pro-queer in a long ass time, not to mention one of the first to be able to talk about white privilege openly.There's a lot of materialism yeah but that's a by-product of years of propaganda - American consumerism has been shoved down our throats since we were old enough to watch TV, and it's not like baby boomers aren't exactly the same way in regards to materialism. Some kids are capitalists but even the ones that identify as "libertarian" (right-wing) are generally confused and sometimes even well-intentioned but don't understand the implications behind "libertarian" praxis.

Don't forget all the left-wing activity of interest and potential have been primarily composed of youth!

Don't talk shit on us!

It's because that's all they know and they feel that there is only way; capitalism. The other thing is that they feel that's the only way to actually attain anything in life is to submit to the economic rules of the day as much as they hate it and as much as they agree with you about management. But they would fight you if you ever tried to change it.

If we really had a platform to address the concerns of the workers, to discuss REAL socialism, workers self management, worker control over their own lives, the freeing up of their time to seek our their true potential.

You'd bet your ass, they would jump on board.

[RadioRaheem84]

Case in point: I remember a young person in my senior year of high school who asked the teacher why George Orwell wrote 1984 if he himself was a socialist? He literally thought that all socialism led to was Stalin-style or fascist like control over all of our lives. That's what socialism is to the youth.

[Belisarius]

it depends a bit on the country i think. socialism is here seen as social democracy and communism equals stalinism

[RadioRaheem84]

it depends a bit on the country i think. socialism is here seen as social democracy and communism equals stalinism


Yeah but in the States, social democracy is also seen as a step below Stalinism. Many in the US think of the EU as free, but not as free as the States because we're capitalist and you're socialist (social democratic).We think of Sweden as just being "good socialism" and Cuba being "bad socialism". These are the words of that idiot PJ O'Rourke.

[rednordman]

Yeah but in the States, social democracy is also seen as a step below Stalinism. Many in the US think of the EU as free, but not as free as the States because we're capitalist and you're socialist (social democratic).We think of Sweden as just being "good socialism" and Cuba being "bad socialism". These are the words of that idiot PJ O'Rourke.Thats bizarre. How can they place European social democracy in the same platform of stalinism. Heck, hate it or love it, if it wasnt for social democracy, alot of countries in Europe would be living the the stone age. Seriously you could even have the same levels of poverty that we had in the early 20th century. Why do I get the impression that the USA generally looks down of Europe. Despite some countries being reowned for having a better standard of living.

[Belisarius]

Why do I get the impression that the USA generally looks down of Europe. Despite some countries being reowned for having a better standard of living.
because the usa think they rule the world. that's why they get into everyone's business.

[RadioRaheem84]

Thats bizarre. How can they place European social democracy in the same platform of stalinism. Heck, hate it or love it, if it wasnt for social democracy, alot of countries in Europe would be living the the stone age. Seriously you could even have the same levels of poverty that we had in the early 20th century. Why do I get the impression that the USA generally looks down of Europe. Despite some countries being reowned for having a better standard of living.

Well not close to Stalinism, just not as free as we are. For instance, we don't understand the concept of giving up the chance to become multi-millionaires just to have your basic needs met; education, health care, housing, etc. We think that takes away liberty; our chances of making it big.

Americans think that we're tougher than soft Europeans because we don't need socialized health care or free college education. We think it's tough to work three jobs, bandage your own arm when it's hurt and live in utter misery until you finally make it. We think of the older generations that lived before us (you know the ones that were horribly exploited) as the "greatest generation" and we believe that complaining is useless because they lived through worse.

Europeans, though complain too much and are lazy. :lol: