why do we generalize people in the military?

[The Red Next Door]

Not everyone in the military like working for an imperialist army and i don't think everyone in the army is an imperialist.

[AK]

I think you also have to look at the fact that they volunteered for army service and they know they'll most likely be sent on an imperialist war.

[NoMore]

Not everyone in the military like working for an imperialist army and i don't think everyone in the army is an imperialist.

The military is a large organization and the majority of the military personal share the views of the imperialist government they work for.

Also, if you don't like working for an imperialist army then why would you work for one?

Why do we generalize the soldiers who worked for hitler?
I'm sure there were at least a few who didn't like working for him.

Why shouldn't we call them nazis?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think you also have to look at the fact that they volunteered for army service and they know they'll most likely be sent on an imperialist war.

yes, this is why the military uses incredibly predatory recruitment methods starting by PR trips to elementary schools and recruitment pitches in high schools.:rolleyes:


According to the Department of Defense's budget materials on their website, the combined military recruitment and advertising budget is $1,407,100,000 ($1.4 billion). Here is a break down by branch of the military:
ARMY $854,146,000
NAVY $297,141,000
MARINE CORPS $123,465,000
AIR FORCE $132,349,000

The US even threatened economic consequences for public schools that tried to prevent recruiters from coming to the school.

This must also be why the military and government go to such great lengths to justify their interventions as "peace-keeping" or for "saving democracy".

This must also be why when anti-war and anti-imperialist sentiment is up, recruitment goes down but when the economy goes bad, recruitment goes up.

This must also be why boot-camps and breaking GIs of all individual thought and natural instinct is mandatory and the very first thing that happens to recruits and draftees alike.

I knew a lot of chauvinistic and xenophobic people when I was in high school and a lot of people who joined the military (this was the late 90s) and funnily enough they were not the same people. There was one woman who was gung-ho and joined the military, but she was also in ROTC - the rest of the armchair generals in high school went onto their service and warehouse and office jobs. The people I knew who joined were like the couple of stoners from my drama class and other general "fuck-ups" that didn't have many options.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Ok, the US military is a "voluntary" standing army.

Most of the soldiers are from the working class. the upper class tends to wind up being officers and leading the working class soldiers.

It is a volunteer army but most working class people join because of the economic benefits. With the military you get: Education, Insurance of all kinds, experience that employers love. The propaganda behind it is also a large factor in recruitment. "Service to your nation," "Defending freedom," "be all that you can be," "brinding democracy and justice to the rest of the world," is what drives a lot of people into thinking its a great thing. There is also 'militainment'. Americas Army (http://www.americasarmy.com/) is a HUUUUGE recruiting tool. Movies also have the same effect. Pearl Harbor, Saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk Down, Behind Enemy Lines... all entertainment that glorifies warfare.

Most working class people do not join to "get their rocks off" by killing "dirty muslims." they join for the economic benefits, the propagandized view of things, and the idea that it is a generally good thing. Recruiters are also VERY pushy. I had gone to lunch one day with my friends, and 3 recruiters followed us from the high school and got out and gave us their cards. Propaganda is what makes them think the imperialists are good.

Soldiers are not demons, they are just brainwashed people. it takes an effective and STRONG argument against what they believe to get them to change. now, even then, they are stuck in a contract to either see 12 months(i think) of combat duty or 4 years of general service.

Warfare is one of the most confusing things though. It can affirm or destroy the combatants views. victory is good and defeat is bad. victory can either come through "enlightened" and civilian safe combat or through indiscriminate bombing and brutal house to house combat which displaces civilians by the hundreds of thousands. It is not the soldiers choice to invade a city though. it is left up to the officer, or the non-commissioned officer(Sergeant). The officer usually comes form the upper class and has say in what they do, whereas the private and the corporal have no say, and come from the lower class. they are made into cannon fodder. We see that the average soldier is this murdering beast that kills civilians for fun. its not true. Some may snap, some are ill from the get go, but most are sane and rational.


Gravedigger: you pretty much beat me to it. i spent a while writing this lol.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I think you also have to look at the fact that they volunteered for army service and they know they'll most likely be sent on an imperialist war.

I don't think the average grunt has a firm grasp of "imperialism" in its modern sense until it's much too late.

Military service for many is also a way of redeeming perceived failings. Most - but not all - of the people I personally knew prior to their enlistment were struggling with academics or their family had economic issues with no foreseeable conclusion. This came as a discouragement, and the military was presented as a remedy. Just compare the treatment of army privates to high school valedictorians.

[The Red Next Door]

I don't think the average grunt has a firm grasp of "imperialism" in its modern sense until it's much too late.

Military service for many is also a way of redeeming perceived failings. Most - but not all - of the people I personally knew prior to their enlistment were struggling with academics or their family had economic issues with no foreseeable conclusion. This came as a discouragement, and the military was presented as a remedy. Just compare the treatment of army privates to high school valedictorians.

agree

[More Fire for the People]

I've met some real progressives (in the American sense) from the military. A lot of them are opposed to war and war in general but don't view the political and economic character of the state from a critical lense.

[scarletghoul]

It's not about judging the personalities of the people in the military. Whatever their individual personalities, their social role is as a force of imperialist aggression and oppression, and it is therefore good to destroy them.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

It's not about judging the personalities of the people in the military. Whatever their individual personalities, their social role is as a force of imperialist aggression and oppression, and it is therefore good to destroy them.

Uh... what?

Whites and men are a force of oppression in the world as well. Do we destroy them?

[Spawn of Stalin]

What a brainless statement. All imperialist forces are oppressors, this is not up for debate, it's just true, I suggest you have a long hard think about whether the same can be said for whites and men though. I'll give you a clue, it can't. And even if all white men were oppressors due to a biological flaw or something, they don't choose to be white, they don't choose to be men. Soldiers do have a choice, even if it's only between working at 7-Eleven and joining the military, they still make that choice. Ultimately the choice they make tells us a lot about them as individuals, spend your life working in a convenience store for a low wage, or go off to some republic and be complicit in the murder of thousands of working class people.

[#FF0000]

Soldiers do have a choice

Conscription


even if it's only between working at 7-Eleven and joining the military, they still make that choice. Ultimately the choice they make tells us a lot about them as individuals, spend your life working in a convenience store for a low wage, or go off to some republic and be complicit in the murder of thousands of working class people.

That sounds an awful lot like a bougie argument you hear all the time, about how the poor CHOOSE to be poor, since they CHOOSE to make bad decisions. For example, it isn't capitalism's fault that someone lost their home, because they CHOSE to take an adjustable rate loan instead of a fixed rate. They CHOSE to fall for predatory lending schemes.

Just saying, it seems pretty inconsistent to analyze all the subtle economic factors that limit people's options in a given situation, and then drop it once the situation involves joining the military.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Ridiculous. Of course people don't choose to be poor, it is forced upon them by the conditions of a capitalist society, but, being poor is no excuse for joining the military, you are just projecting your own problems onto other people, usually inhabitants of third world countries, and thus, strengthening capitalism. So you're poor? Go rob a bank, sell counterfeit DVDs, suck dick for small change, it really doesn't matter what you do, just as long as you don't go bombing people. Getting by in developed countries is not as hard as we would like to think it is, it's actually pretty easy, just people are obsessed with feeling so bloody sorry for themselves that it the end they don't give a shit who they have to kill, as long as they can afford to spend four figures this Christmas, that's all that matters, right? Well if you're willing to kill an Afghan for money you should be able to do just about anything, the military is the coward's way out.

[Pogue]

Ridiculous. Of course people don't choose to be poor, it is forced upon them by the conditions of a capitalist society, but, being poor is no excuse for joining the military, you are just projecting your own problems onto other people, usually inhabitants of third world countries, and thus, strengthening capitalism. So you're poor? Go rob a bank, sell counterfeit DVDs, suck dick for small change, it really doesn't matter what you do, just as long as you don't go bombing people. Getting by in developed countries is not as hard as we would like to think it is, it's actually pretty easy, if you're willing to kill an Afghan for money you should be able to do just about anything, the military is the coward's way out.

Well this is absurd for two reasons. Firstly, the idea of people joining the military knowing that they are strengthening capitalism is ridiculous, they wont know this so that criticism is redundant.

Secondly, clearly there is a high level of irony in the fact you list the alternatives to joining the military as 'suck dick for small change' and 'go rob a bank'. Obviously the reason why some people join the military is ebcause they don't want to do another low paid job or go on the dole, etc. Maybe you'd know this if you had ever been poor or maybe looked at it criticially.

I don't think we can look at all soldiers excactly the same, but I don't think they are innocent exploited working class people either, I think they choose to go there, they shouldn't go there, and quite simply if you go armed and ivnade another country, you should expect to be get attacked by the resistance. Your not a hero, and yes, you are contributing to the slaughter of civilians in an imperialist war.

Some of them will be deluded, yes, but they make the choice to go there, and lets be honest, people know what its like in Iraq and Afghanistan. Thepoint is, we need to generate our alternatives to people going to the army - so we don't create or support a fucking chauvinistic 'charity' like Help for Heroes, which can quite frankly suck my dick, but we need to try and disuade people from joining the army, we need to advance the anti-war struggle in our own countries, etc.

So in response to the OP I agree not all of the soldiers are the same or have the same motivations, unfortunately they are all part of the same wars or for those not invovled inw ars, serve the same role, so we oppose the military and tyr to hope to encourage them not to sign up or in times of conflict encourage them to defect/mutiny.

[Spawn of Stalin]

With respect, mate, you don't know anything about me. I've been poor my whole life, I just don't feel the urge to whine about it at every opportunity because although I live in a tiny council flat and live off next to nothing, I actually consider myself to be pretty damn fortunate. Despite being poor I've got a roof over my head and I eat three meals a day, so I don't feel the need to go marching into other people's countries and committing humanitarian atrocities. Yes, I would do any number of things before going to war, I'd steal, sell myself, anything, but I'd never take part in imperialist wars for my own petty personal reasons, that's just bloody selfish if you ask me. It's not like any soldier can claim ignorance either, maybe ten years ago it would have been different, but everyone in this country hates the war and the soldiers all know it, so not only are they signing up for a holiday of mass murder, rape and pillage, they are also turning their backs on the country they claim to serve, and its ideals. Democracy? What's the point going to Afghanistan to "bring about democracy" if you can't respect majority rule in your own bloody country? And people wonder why we generalise people in the military?

[Pogue]

With respect, mate, you don't know anything about me. I've been poor my whole life, I just don't feel the urge to whine about it at every opportunity because although I live in a tiny council flat and live off next to nothing, I actually consider myself to be pretty damn fortunate. Despite being poor I've got a roof over my head and I eat three meals a day, so I don't feel the need to go marching into other people's countries and committing humanitarian atrocities. Yes, I would do any number of things before going to war, I'd steal, sell myself, anything, but I'd never take part in imperialist wars for my own petty personal reasons, that's just bloody selfish if you ask me. It's not like any soldier can claim ignorance either, maybe ten years ago it would have been different, but everyone in this country hates the war and the soldiers all know it, so not only are they signing up for a holiday of mass murder, rape and pillage, they are also turning their backs on the country they claim to serve, and its ideals. Democracy? What's the point going to Afghanistan to "bring about democracy" if you can't respect majority rule in your own bloody country? And people wonder why we generalise people in the military?

I think the point is you were being quite crude by suggesting a viable alternative for people who (wrongly) feel a need to join the army was 'sucking dick' seeing as thats higly ironic as not wanting to 'suck dick' is probably one of the reasons why some people join the military in the first place. I think it displays a certain degree of misunderstanding on poverty and the decisions people make based on it.

[Spawn of Stalin]

To be fair I doubt many people are in that much of a dire situation right now, what I am basically saying is that it's not that hard to swallow your pride and put up with a shit job, joining the army your pride remains intact, even better, you are lauded as a hero, it's a real easy way out that ultimately makes life harder for the working class in both Britain and Afghanistan. Instead, boycott the military and get a real job, go to the Jobcentre, there's plenty of cleaning jobs, and you don't have to be a Romanian immigrant to do that kind of thing, there's no shame in having a crap job, people are just to proud.

[hugsandmarxism]

Soldiers are not demons, they are just brainwashed people. it takes an effective and STRONG argument against what they believe to get them to change. now, even then, they are stuck in a contract to either see 12 months(i think) of combat duty or 4 years of general service.


It's not about judging the personalities of the people in the military. Whatever their individual personalities, their social role is as a force of imperialist aggression and oppression, and it is therefore good to destroy them.

These two quotes (with Scarlet Ghoul's last line modified to say "it is therefore good to defend against them) properly illustrate my perspective on the military. Certainly there are ghoulish people in uniform who simply want to have a job that involves killing others (I knew a guy like this in highschool, who was quite candid about why he wanted to be a Marine) but I doubt this is the norm. There are plenty who seek military service out of some patriotic duty, for economic opportunity, etc., but what difference does it make what the motives are of the guy who orders the air-strike on the orphanage? The sadist and the sucker satiate the same imperialist need for able bodies to carry out bloodshed, and hence, need to be resisted equally.

[Pogue]

To be fair I doubt many people are in that much of a dire situation right now, what I am basically saying is that it's not that hard to swallow your pride and put up with a shit job, joining the army your pride remains intact, even better, you are lauded as a hero, it's a real easy way out that ultimately makes life harder for the working class in both Britain and Afghanistan. Instead, boycott the military and get a real job, go to the Jobcentre, there's plenty of cleaning jobs, and you don't have to be a Romanian immigrant to do that kind of thing, there's no shame in having a crap job, people are just to proud.

But thats the point. People don't want to be a cleaner. They would see the army as a mroe attractive path, which is hardly that suprising, especially given all the pro-war propoganda.

[punisa]

It depends, if they go to military voluntarily then there is no excuse for it. Even if its "just" as a form of work, not for imperialist ideals.
If we put aside politics, ideologies etc. these are still the lowest gutter of human beings - to be ready to go to war and kill people just because its your job.

Then we have draft were everyone is forced into the army without personal consent, these people should not be generalized in any way. Sure someone might say that they could desert the army, but that is really a suicide in most cases.

[-Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-]

Because they kill innocents like the Paras in bloody sunday.
or the millions in vietnam palestine middle east asia, all of the imperialist wars infact.

[FreeFocus]

Soldiers physically enforce imperialism. It isn't a boss that picks up a gun or drops a bomb, it's a soldier. Both boss and troop are guilty.

You can ask why is any group generalized. Why speak about the BNP or the Nazis as monolithic groups? I don't accept this argument at all. If people opt to jump ship to leftism, ok, fine. However, if they're still part of the institution, chances are that hasn't happened yet and the chances of it happening at all are pretty low.

[-Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-]

the generality is not like a racial stereotype, it is judging soldiers who join imperialist armies, with the knowledge they will be propping up imperialism

[#FF0000]

Ridiculous. Of course people don't choose to be poor, it is forced upon them by the conditions of a capitalist society

And the conditions of a capitalist society have nothing to do with why poor, working class kids who are usually pretty apolitical joining the military? It's just luck that most of the rank-and-file of the military are poor?



the generality is not like a racial stereotype, it is judging soldiers who join imperialist armies, with the knowledge they will be propping up imperialism


They don't usually know that they're "propping up imperialism". They probably don't even understand the concept of imperialism to begin with. Not to mention, one of the big things they harp on is the military as a liberating force, and not as an imperialist, invading force. This is incorrect, but looking at the numbers Gravedigger provided, and the situation as he outlined it, it doesn't surprise me that people buy it.

Any, one more thing, I think a lot of people are missing the point by focusing on individuals in the military. The personalities of the people involved are not important, like scarletghoul said. Just something to remember

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Soldiers physically enforce imperialism. It isn't a boss that picks up a gun or drops a bomb, it's a soldier. Both boss and troop are guilty.

You can ask why is any group generalized. Why speak about the BNP or the Nazis as monolithic groups? I don't accept this argument at all. If people opt to jump ship to leftism, ok, fine. However, if they're still part of the institution, chances are that hasn't happened yet and the chances of it happening at all are pretty low.

I don't know about you, but I don't place the blame of Third Reich exploits - especially relating to the Holocaust - on the average Nazi soldier regardless if he was conscripted or enlisted. It's easy to vilify soldiers from an outside perspective, but when the military exists as one of the few alternatives to your socioeconomic plights, all ideals not related to protecting your countrymen go out the door. And once you step into the enlistment office with a decent medical record, you are constantly presented with the threats of violence, dishonor, and imprisonment until you can perform some pretty terrible things without consciously thinking about it. So let's say you join and soon discover (somehow through all the propaganda) that you are not really protecting the United States. What do you do? Go to jail for it? Get shot running away? Yeah right. Few of us here are that heroic, and I would venture to say 99% of the people who answered "yes" are liars.

It's no coincidence that the Axis command in Japan and Germany exaggerated claims to their front men about how the Allies would rape their wives and enslave their country. While this might be true in some sense, they were clearly lying to keep up the image necessary to maintain a strong military force who can perform X with little regard for rationalism. The same is true for today's North American, Asian, and European militaries.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

What a brainless statement. All imperialist forces are oppressors, this is not up for debate, it's just true, I suggest you have a long hard think about whether the same can be said for whites and men though. I'll give you a clue, it can't. And even if all white men were oppressors due to a biological flaw or something, they don't choose to be white, they don't choose to be men. Soldiers do have a choice, even if it's only between working at 7-Eleven and joining the military, they still make that choice. Ultimately the choice they make tells us a lot about them as individuals, spend your life working in a convenience store for a low wage, or go off to some republic and be complicit in the murder of thousands of working class people.

Others have already mentioned how your defense of "choice" shares many similarities with the capitalist defense of "choice," but I just want to point out I was being facetious to lighten up a rather reactionary statement like 'kill them all.'

[Stranger Than Paradise]

It is my view that Imperialist Soldiers should be given no sympathy by revolutionary workers. They are enemies to their class, I'm not saying they can't change but anyone who will willingly invade a country and kill innocent civilians should be shown no compassion.

[Rusty Shackleford]

It is my view that Imperialist Soldiers should be given no sympathy by revolutionary workers. They are enemies to their class, I'm not saying they can't change but anyone who will willingly invade a country and kill innocent civilians should be shown no compassion.

they join, and then have no say in their future so long as the contract is in tact. they make a hasty and uninformed decision to join. the bourgeois and sometimes working class(this is the real class traitor) staffed officer ranks COMMAND the recruit. they have no real say beyond mutiny and desertion. both practically impossible in the middle east for logistical reasons. how do you expect a brigade to mutiny in kandahar, afghanistan. say they do it. now what, theyre going to walk to some place where the inhabitants arent hostile to them?


yes they can be changed, and time has shown that members of the military can sometimes make the right decision in times of political upheaval.

The Red Army was full of ex-imperial soldiers! The honduras coup saw 2 brigades resist!

first learn their stance and then take action.

[RadioRaheem84]

Most soldiers couldn't tell you what imperialism means and why it applies to the US.

Most soldiers join because of the benefits even though there really is NO benefit in joining the armed forces. I think there was a study done that showed the economic disadvantages of joining the army. But it is still sometimes the only economically viable alternative to living in the ghetto with little to know advantage.

They need out help too like anyone in the lower class.

[Forward Union]

Actually a large section of the Army has always historically deserted and joined the revolution. And was in that respect, revoutionary. Although they, as soldiers, perform a very different role compared to the working class 'proper', they have their cultural and family roots in that class, and will not comfortably take up guns against it. Even in Iraq, thousands of soldiers have deserted. Others don't understand the causes of the war, and have been convinced by their officers and the establishment that they're doing something good for the people of Iraq/Afghanistan. There are also a layer of total ****s but from my personal time in the Army I think this tends to be limited to the NCOs and COs, and not so much the squaddies themselves.

If there was no revolutionary potential within the low ranks of the army then there could be no revolution. The army must be destroyed in the class war because they are the only organisation capable of carrying out a counter revolution.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Right. I think there might be some confusion in this debate about the revolutionary potential of lower ranking soldiers vs. their role as part of an imperial force.

People in countries being attacked have and should defend themselves and so when US soldiers are killed, to me the only blame goes to the officers and the ruling class that needs/wants the war. At the same time I certainly don't celebrate the death of a working class grunt as a real blow against empire - it's people defending themselves basically.

This is also why and how solidarity can be built to undermine the ruling class: the soldiers have no more class interest or benefit from imperial war than the people they are forced to occupy. Soldiers in the US come back and say that all the time: why am I fighting children, searching family homes or farms - this is despite all attempts by the military and ruling class to de-humanize the "enemy".

In the first world war and in Vietnam, lower ranking troops enforced their own cease-fires or de-facto cease fires by ignoring orders for search missions or whatnot. A militant domestic anti-war movement could potentially reinforce the class instincts of many of these soldiers who do see that they are not fighting an agressor but are fighting for the real agressor. From there the soldiers could be organized to fight within or we could at least help people go AWOL or support people put on trial for refusing deployment or orders.

This is the real strategy for defeating imperial forces from the inside. Of course resistance in the occupied country is the primary thing, but with 12%+ unemployment, the US has a big pool of potential grunts and so hoping that the US will be defeated from combat casualties alone essentially means 100,000 more dead working class soldiers and millions more dead Iraqis and Pakistanis and Afghanis.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Ridiculous. Of course people don't choose to be poor, it is forced upon them by the conditions of a capitalist society, but, being poor is no excuse for joining the military, you are just projecting your own problems onto other people, usually inhabitants of third world countries, and thus, strengthening capitalism. So you're poor? Go rob a bank, sell counterfeit DVDs, suck dick for small change, it really doesn't matter what you do, just as long as you don't go bombing people. Getting by in developed countries is not as hard as we would like to think it is, it's actually pretty easy, just people are obsessed with feeling so bloody sorry for themselves that it the end they don't give a shit who they have to kill, as long as they can afford to spend four figures this Christmas, that's all that matters, right? Well if you're willing to kill an Afghan for money you should be able to do just about anything, the military is the coward's way out.

Out of curiosity, what if one joins the military and does none of these things? Lets say things work out and Marine Corporal Schmuckateli ends up going to the US embassy in Qatar to work as a sentry.

Really, he can't be any more diabolical than the ambassador he's charged to protect, can he? And thereby is any job in the state dept off limits as well? I tell ya they do a lot more fucked up shit thann 90% of the military, at least.

If this here government we have is sending thousands of young men to butcher afghan farmers, how can anyone in good conscience accept a check from the same source that is paying these demons? One minute your laying asphalt the next your lining 3-year olds up in front of the ditch they just dug.

I see no difference, no difference!

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

It is my view that Imperialist Soldiers should be given no sympathy by revolutionary workers. They are enemies to their class, I'm not saying they can't change but anyone who will willingly invade a country and kill innocent civilians should be shown no compassion.

What revolutionary workers are you refering to?

Do you know any that could get me out of the predicament I find myself in?

Please, mantra about revolutionary workers and the revolutionary left that don't fuckin exist ain't going to cover your rent, or your parents prescriptions or the lawyer fees when your sisters in jail.

Secondly the military men and women don't really need sympathy I'm afraid, and in America they have it. You see even during vietnam when the young radicals were hollerin and all that, the vast majority of the working class supported servicemen and women. Why the fuck are you gonna try and fight that?

Maybe it's a different thing in Europe, and I mean no disrespect, but when people know folks (sons, brothers, neighbors, cousins, mothers) who are in the military or even in a combat zone it doesn't make sense to me to call them murderers. It's bad politikin' really.