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View Full Version : Should socialists work with religious folk?



Matty_UK
21st November 2009, 05:19
I've been thinking hard recently about new ways to combat capitalism in the developed west, because you may have noticed we don't seem to be having much success - we are stuck in our miniature sects, latching onto and supporting struggles when they occur, distributing propaganda, or organising futile protests. I've been thinking, with the exception of the occasional struggle with concrete demands we might take part in, (e.g. a strike) there is nothing about leftist activism that offers some sort of practical result, or anything to offer ordinary people rather than just idealists or those who enjoy speculating about ideas.

A second problem is the atomisation of communities which makes it very difficult to organise people.

This idea might be unpopular, but a solution to both these problems could be to form an alliance between socialists and church/mosque/synagogue goers. The church is the last remnant of a communal life where people congregate freely without any money changing hands, therefore if we want to organise people this is a good place to start.

Furthermore, people who still go to church (and especially those who go to mosques) are likely to be disillusioned about modern life, i.e. capitalism. I've often found the leftist literature that apolitical friends of mine find interesting is things like those situationist Spectacular Times pamphlets, or The Coming Insurrection, things that critique modern atomised consumer lifestyles that I think almost everyone hates in some way. We should offer a critique of how capitalism is responsible for creating a culture where people care about nothing but themselves, where people rot away their potential by relying on passively consuming commodities for entertainment rather than doing something more active and positive, and where everything is superficial and decadent. It's easy to show how capitalism flies in the face of any religious belief.

We could find common ground with them in attempting to do positive community work which we can push in a more subversive direction - we can organise means of socialising that don't rely on spending money, such as sporting events, or creating genuine public spaces for people to hang out, like a youth club or whatever, dance/singing/music classes, (anyone who has been to a caligh knows these can be a lot of fun) daycare, etcetc. Churches/mosques often do things like this anyway, but we could work to secularise and broaden these activities, and introduce new activities in a more subversive direction - get people to rally around problems facing the community and organise protests, work to convert disused buildings into something with a function for the community, give support and solidarity to workers' struggles, and so forth.

Do you see where I'm coming from here? What do you guys think? I don't think we would have anything to lose by trying this approach - we could start it by talking to people leaving their church/mosque about our ideas, distributing leaflets to them, and organising a public meeting between different religious sects and political sects in our area. If nothing else, it's a good platform to air our ideas and we could definately reach a lot of people this way.

Opinions?

danyboy27
21st November 2009, 05:33
my opinion:
for religious groups, we leftist are nothing but usefull idiot, people they can use to make their own agenda and recruit more peoples.

its happening a lot where i live. a LOT of leftist organisation, in the name of anti-imperialism defend the action of hamas and the taleban.

that what happen when leftist and misguided liberal try to get along with a religious movement.

graffic
21st November 2009, 13:06
My friend from Istanbul is disgusted at the way some leftist groups have allied with Islamic groups in the UK. He comes from a country with horrific problems because of religion

New Tet
21st November 2009, 15:34
The answer to the qustion, in my mind, is "yes". We can work with people of faith as long as we make clear that there is no compromise on the principles of the Law of value, the class struggle and the revolutionary mission of the working class.

Keep in mind, though, the objective of socialism is the realization of all the Utopian dreams in Jesus' teachings.

danyboy27
21st November 2009, 21:16
The answer to the qustion, in my mind, is "yes". We can work with people of faith as long as we make clear that there is no compromise on the principles of the Law of value, the class struggle and the revolutionary mission of the working class.

Keep in mind, though, the objective of socialism is the realization of all the Utopian dreams in Jesus' teachings.

except that if we dont believe in socialism the result will not be thrown in a lake of fire.

scarletghoul
21st November 2009, 22:02
My friend from Istanbul is disgusted at the way some leftist groups have allied with Islamic groups in the UK. He comes from a country with horrific problems because of religionIslam isn't exactly the same political force in Turkey as it is in the UK. In many countries it is a force of mass oppression, but in the UK and elsewhere muslims are an oppressed minority. The social standing of muslims in the UK is based not around the reactionary elements of their religion, but around the discrimination they face on a daily basis. Socialists should certainly ally with downtrodden minorities of all kinds, including muslims. "Arise, the wretched of the Earth." It's perfectly possible to collaborate with religious groups on certain issues without compromising our views. And it is necessary too. Without reaching out to muslims and others, we are being idiots and narrowing our base of potential support.

BurnTheOliveTree
21st November 2009, 22:45
This kind of thing would be awesome, except that all too often religions stand in direct opposition to some of the pre-requisites of socialism. All too often women and homosexuals are not recognised on an equal level, for example. So when it comes to crunch, we'd either have to compromise and become soft sexists and homophobes, which I doubt many of us are prepared to do, or they would have to compromise and accept an egalitarian view of the world, which many of them don't seem prepared to do.

However, I do feel that the community aspect of religion is something absolutely worth preserving, and it's just a damn shame that the character of their institutions is so often reactionary.

We have religious people on the board I'd happily stand shoulder-to-shoulder with, so I think it must be possible... I don't know, this is a tricky question, it definitely deserves a lot of thought.

-Alex

danyboy27
21st November 2009, 22:58
It's perfectly possible to collaborate with religious groups on certain issues without compromising our views. And it is necessary too. Without reaching out to muslims and others, we are being idiots and narrowing our base of potential support.

its one thing working with people who believe in god, but working hand to hand with misogynistic, homophibic group on the basis that they will bring more people on our side is just dangerous.

Bud Struggle
21st November 2009, 23:30
its one thing working with people who believe in god, but working hand to hand with misogynistic, homophibic group on the basis that they will bring more people on our side is just dangerous.

There's always the danger that if you hitch your wagon to a star--you just might get burned by the heat of that star. Liberation Theology was a venture that did something like what the OP mentioned. Communism partnered with Communism to creat quite a dynamic movement in South America at one time. The Catholic Church put the breaks on and Fundamentalist Theology took up the slack and now Fundamentalism is making great gains in that contenent.

The interesting thing though is that Catholicism changed Marxism and Marxism Changed Catholicism. The highlight of Anarchism in the current world the EZLN was a mixture of Anarchism and Catholicism--as a matter of fact the movement began in the Church itself--not in any Anarchist organization. It would be interesting to see what those folks perspective on this issue would be.

I'd even to say that in that society a ski-mask-wearing-pipe-smoking avatar kind of person might not 15 mins while a late middle aged Catholic widow might just feel quite at home.

mikelepore
22nd November 2009, 00:02
an alliance between socialists and church/mosque/synagogue goers

That wording makes it sound like socialist groups going to religious groups and offering to collaborate with them.

I think it makes more sense to encourage socialist groups to recruit new members regardless of whether or not they are also members of religious groups.