Venezuela blows up border bridges with Colombia

[Das war einmal]

Venezuela blows up border bridges with Colombia

Tensions raised between two countries as troops dynamite rural walkways Venezuela claims are used by smugglers and militia


Venezuela (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/venezuela) has blown up two pedestrian bridges on its border with Colombia (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/colombia) in the latest sign of deteriorating relations between the Andean neighbours.
Soldiers destroyed the walkways because they were being used by illegal militia and drug traffickers, said Eusebio Aguero, an army general based in the border state of Táchira.
"They are two foot bridges that paramilitary fighters used, where gasoline and drug precursors were smuggled, subversive groups entered. They are not considered in any international treaty."
However Colombia denounced the action as a violation of international law that would worsen the diplomatic crisis between the two countries.
Colombia's defence minister, Gabriel Silva, said Bogotá would lodge a complaint with the United Nations and the Organisation of American States over the "aggression".
"Uniformed men, apparently from the Venezuelan army, arrived in trucks on the Venezuelan side at two pedestrian bridges that link communities on both sides and then proceeded to dynamite them," Silva said.
The row renewed tensions that have bubbled for weeks, with Venezuela's president, Hugo Chávez (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/hugo-chavez), recently telling his armed forces "to prepare for war" with their neighbour in order to ensure peace.
Colombia's decades-long civil war has for years spilled across its 1,375-mile border with Venezuela in the form of leftist guerrillas, right-wing militias and drug traffickers, a nexus made even murkier by contraband and corrupt local authorities.
A spike in violence on the Venezuelan side, including the abduction and murder of an amateur football team, and the drive-by shooting of two border guards, prompted authorities to reinforce the border. Destroying the bridges was a "necessary and sovereign act to curb border infiltration and drug smuggling," the economy minister, Alí Rodríguez Araque, said in Caracas.
Colombian media reported that villagers on their side of the border remonstrated with and threw stones at the Venezuelan troops in a vain effort to save the walkways. They were sited at two rural spots, Las Naves and Chicoral, near the Colombian municipality of Ragonvalia.
Full-scale war between Colombia and Venezuela was "unlikely" but there remained the potential for a bloody border clash, said one senior European diplomat. "Things are so tense it's definitely possible. Alarm bells should be ringing."
Chávez, who says he is leading a socialist revolution against US hegemony, has protested against a deal that will extend US access to Colombian military bases. He accused Colombia's conservative president, Álvaro Uribe, of being a Washington pawn.
Venezuela has cut the $7bn annual bilateral trade between the two countries, sparking protests from businesses on both sides of the border.
Analysts said both presidents hoped to reap domestic political gain by stirring patriotic sentiment. Uribe is considering running for a third consecutive term next year. Chávez, who faces legislative elections, has dipped in the polls in the wake of power blackouts, water shortages and rampant inflation.


Source: The Guardian


This is starting to get serious.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i think its rather ridiculous that two pedestrian bridges had to be demolished. i dont know how it is there but im sure a few border checks at the bridges would have sufficed without having to totally interfere with civilian life by blowing their only local way across a river up.

i dont know if it is just media portrayal or not but it seems that they are making Chavez look like a hot headed buffoon while Uribe is cool and collected.

i wholly support hands off Venezuela though. i certainly hope nothing worse happens.

[Uppercut]

I'm a little bit wary of Chavez...I used to be a big supporter but after he proposed the banning of violent videos games and now he's blowing up pedestrian bridges...?

[FSL]

in the wake of power blackouts, water shortages and rampant inflation.



On the topic itself, it just looks as if two dogs are barking, nothing more than that.
Offtopic now... the electricity company that was the result of the nationalization of 14 private ones continues to function in the same way. Unless I'm mistaken the state simply owns the majority share, with stocks still traded in the market. That means that profit is what guides investments, not needs.

This is less an example of a country attacked by imperialism like maybe Chile during Allende and more of one where simply rich people are being rich, making everyone else miserable. Many things could change and in many cases workers demanded change -occupying factories etc- but this hasn't come.

Lula brings out the army in the streets to fight gangs so Rio can have a safe zone for western reporters and damned may the workers be, Venezuelans can only take 3 minute baths in the dark, businessmen reap profits as they always did.
Looks like one big chance was lost in Latin America.

[el_chavista]

Part of the very illegal commerce between Colombia and Venezuela is done through "green roads" (paths and hanging bridges) by mulas (hand carrying).
In such a hot boarder (guerrilla, narco-traffic and paramilitaries) there are legal crossing points agreed by both governments.
The problems with water and electric supply are not that scandalous as the media broadcast them.

[cyu]

Chávez, who faces legislative elections, has dipped in the polls in the wake of power blackouts, water shortages and rampant inflation.



I'd say the first two are the result of not allowing enough employees to assume democratic control of the means of production and the third is the result of not having currency that's actually backed by productive output (grains, oil, stuff on the consumer price index, etc).

[cyu]

i dont know if it is just media portrayal or not but it seems that they are making Chavez look like a hot headed buffoon while Uribe is cool and collected.

i wholly support hands off Venezuela though.


Background on Colombia: http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/2091/1/

"Colombia has long been the US' most important ally in Latin America. Simultaneously, Colombia has also become the hemisphere's worst human rights violator... In exchange for a cut of the action, local military police-states brutally repress their population when it attempts to assert basic human rights."

[Patchd]

Part of the very illegal commerce between Colombia and Venezuela is done through "green roads" (paths and hanging bridges) by mulas (hand carrying).
In such a hot boarder (guerrilla, narco-traffic and paramilitaries) there are legal crossing points agreed by both governments.
The problems with water and electric supply are not that scandalous as the media broadcast them.
How would you say the situation regarding power blackouts, and low water supply differs in reality, from what the mainstream media have been presenting it as? Were there frequent power blackouts and water shortages under the governments preceding Chavez's?

If there are widespread power blackouts (or even if it's not too widespread) and/or water shortages, what would you say brought these on? Sorry for the questions, am curious.

[Bright Banana Beard]

How would you say the situation regarding power blackouts, and low water supply differs in reality, from what the mainstream media have been presenting it as? Were there frequent power blackouts and water shortages under the governments preceding Chavez's?

If there are widespread power blackouts (or even if it's not too widespread) and/or water shortages, what would you say brought these on? Sorry for the questions, am curious.
Well, blackout and water shortage is common throughout Latin America. Making example of this is really a poor way to say Chavez is at fault.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Cock waving.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I'm a little bit wary of Chavez...I used to be a big supporter but after he proposed the banning of violent videos games and now he's blowing up pedestrian bridges...?
This is how damaging rumours get started, one person says something then the next thing you know it's all over Fox News being used as an excuse for another imperialist war. Chávez did not propose banning video games, Chávez did not blow up bridges, Chávez is just a man, and he has far more important things to do than ban anything that's fun and blow stuff up. The Venezuelan military blew up some bridges because they thought it was necessary, and who can really blame them? Everyone is always so outraged whenever anything happens in Venezuela, they fail to realise that the road to socialism is an uphill struggle, and socialists have many enemies. What do you do to enemies? You deal with them. That's what Venezuela are doing, they are dealing with their enemies. Get a grip, liberals.

[FSL]

Well, blackout and water shortage is common throughout Latin America. Making example of this is really a poor way to say Chavez is at fault.



The thing is the venezuelan government suggests it fight for the people. Can't see how you can serve the people and stockholders at the same time. Evidently, neither can the venezuelan electricity company.

You can't of course say that the Chavez government is a conservative one in disguise, but there does seem to be a rather strong non-working class tendency in it.

[Paul Cockshott]

I'd say the first two are the result of not allowing enough employees to assume democratic control of the means of production and the third is the result of not having currency that's actually backed by productive output (grains, oil, stuff on the consumer price index, etc).

It is more complicated than that. The Venezuelan state has considerable overseas earnings from oil in hard currency. It it attempts to spend this
hard currency internally however this generates inflation since it simply
causes the central bank to issue Bolivars to the equivalent of the dollars
it holds. The effect of this is to inflate the money supply.
If there were no currency controls in place, the state could simply purchase Bolivars on the open market with its dollars. But with currency controls in place it can not do this and must obtain the Bolivars directly from the state bank.

The question then is why does it maintain currency controls?

Basically it does this to prevent the local propertied classes from expatriating their capital.

The fundamental problem here is that earingings in dollars do not amount to a command over domestic labour. The value of the Bolivar internally, has, in the absence of an open currency market, to be maintained by the need of taxpayers to hold Bolivars to meet their tax obligations. If the state bank just changes dollars to Bolivars and at the same time prevents the export of Bolivars, the money stock rises and the currency depreciates.

To prevent this the state would have to attack the problem at it source : an inadeqacy of internal tax revenues to cover its Bolivar expenditure. It would have to step up the tax rates and the efficiency of the tax collection system on the propertied classes.
A subsidiary technique would be to expand the state import sector and purchase foreign consumer goods with dollars which it then sold on the internal market for Bolivars.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

^ Hey, I'm just going to take your word for it. :lol:

[RedSonRising]

I'm not going to condemn Chavez entirely in this situation, but if there was no word to the Colombian government beforehand then this is pure exhibitionism. It's unnecessary and dangerous aggression towards a government already influenced by United States military influence. I see the reasons for the explosions, but I feel like a less indulgent method of inter-border control could have been achieved. Even if Chavez wasn't personally responsible, military decision-makers may be potentially endangering the working class of Venezuela by provoking a sub-imperialist organ of force. Though Uribe and the Colombian capitalist State are no friend of the working class, Venezuela seems to be begging the Colombian state and military to be more of an enemy than it really is. I've said before, a war would be detrimental to the development of the people of both countries, even though Venezuela needs to protect its interests; if this action was necessary and calculated to be the most beneficial through cost/benefit analysis, then I support it, however they need to protect their proletariat with careful diplomacy just as much as they do with military preparation.

I'm all for ideological international proletariat solidarity, but not at the expense of real, material fundamental class-structure changes within "one country."

[Guerrilla22]

Given the militant nature of the Colombian government and their aggressiveness towards Venezuela can you blame them?

[leninpuncher]

Given the militant nature of the Colombian government and their aggreiveness towards Venezuela can you blame them?
Uh, yes. Columbia is essentially an official US client state now. There was an act signed a few weeks ago, that gives the US complete control over Columbian airports, both military and civilian, for the purpose of military operations against the rising tide of amongst over things, "anti-US governments". At the very least, this sort of act and rhetoric is going to terrify all the sane Venezuelan people who don't want a war with the United States, and will probably have just another reason to vote for the US-friendly opposition. Which despite all our negative feelings towards Chavez, we can probably agree would be the worst-case scenario for Venezuelans.

Since Chavez was elected, the Venezuelan media has levied two charges against him: That he's an authoritarian, and mentally handicapped. He seems to have gone on a mission to vindicate them.

[La Comédie Noire]

The drug smuggler is a popular villain in Latin American politics. If you all remember, the U.S. justified bases in Colombia by claiming they were for the war on drugs. I think they're just mad because they stole their excuse!

I don't condemn Chavez for his actions at all. Colombia is in bed with U.S. Imperialism and cannot be trusted.

[RedSonRising]

Uh, yes. Columbia is essentially an official US client state now. There was an act signed a few weeks ago, that gives the US complete control over Columbian airports, both military and civilian, for the purpose of military operations against the rising tide of amongst over things, "anti-US governments". At the very least, this sort of act and rhetoric is going to terrify all the sane Venezuelan people who don't want a war with the United States, and will probably have just another reason to vote for the US-friendly opposition. Which despite all our negative feelings towards Chavez, we can probably agree would be the worst-case scenario for Venezuelans.

Since Chavez was elected, the Venezuelan media has levied two charges against him: That he's an authoritarian, and mentally handicapped. He seems to have gone on a mission to vindicate them.


Then provoking such an agent of US imperialism will work wonders for the country's stability, won't it?

Also, the fact that you can't even spell my country's name right destroys any credibility that you've read into sources about the relationship between ColOmbia and it's semi-socialist neighbor.

[leninpuncher]

Then provoking such an agent of US imperialism will work wonders for the country's stability, won't it?

Also, the fact that you can't even spell my country's name right destroys any credibility that you've read into sources about the relationship between ColOmbia and it's semi-socialist neighbor.
When the crux of your argument is a typo, it's time to start again.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Admin edit: Please don't post spam pictures in threads outside of Chit-Chat.

If war can break out when can we expect tankie newspapers to produce a grotesque piece of work like that sun cheering on the mutual slaughter by these capitalist countries.

[cyu]

The Venezuelan state has considerable overseas earnings from oil in hard currency. It it attempts to spend this hard currency internally... If there were no currency controls in place, the state could simply purchase Bolivars on the open market with its dollars.

I don't suggest any of that at all. Instead, I would take the "hard" currency, and use it to purchase means of production from abroad (raw materials, equipment, technology, etc). For an economy based on non-capitalists, all you need is the people doing the work and the stuff they use to produce things. Since you already have the people, if you wanted to fight inflation, then you can do it by increasing supply. To increase supply, you can do it by improving the means of production your people use to produce things.


The value of the Bolivar internally, has, in the absence of an open currency market, to be maintained by the need of taxpayers to hold Bolivars to meet their tax obligations.

As an anarchist, I'm not concerned about the Bolivar at all. Instead I believe the people have the same right to do anything that the state claims the right to do. Thus everyone should have the same right to issue their own currency. Since the Bolivar, like most existing currencies, is not backed by anything, it's basically too late to do anything about it. Instead, I would encourage various producers to issue their own currency:

At the end of a season, a farmer may find that he has harvested 500 bushels of grain (or maybe a group of oil workers find that they have 500 barrels of oil). Then the farmer issues one paper note for each bushel (or the oil workers issue one paper note for each barrel), and then takes that note to spend in the local economy.

As long as the other members of the community know they can redeem the paper note for a bushel of wheat or barrel of oil at any time, then the paper note has value, and can be used as currency. When someone finally redeems the paper note for the grain / oil, then the note is destroyed.

If you feel paper backed only by barrels of oil or bushels of grain is not stable enough, then it's not hard to back it with a more diversified basket of goods. It would be similar to investing in various index funds - some baskets of goods may try to mimic the consumer price index - other baskets may be more focused on the energy sector or the construction materials sector.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Stop posting now. Only complete morons and pacifists cannot make out the difference between a war of self defense waged by a tiny, poor, anti-imperialist nation struggling for its survival in the midst of imperialists looking to demolish its regime, and an imperialist war waged by one of the biggest superpowers in the world.


As Communists it is not our role to give a shit about the self defense of one ruling class hack against another unless it involves sending working class people to the meat grinder. You can cheer on the deaths of workers if you want Communists will oppose this pathetic bourgeoisie cock waving



Take your so-called pacifism and crypto-chauvinism back where it came from (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-robertson-_x.htm).


I'm english you twat.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Stop being a pacifist.

Admin edit: Please don't post spam pictures in threads outside of Chit-Chat.

Rosa Luxembourg - pacifist fuck - probably a vegetarian who ate out of bins.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

unless you are Rosa herself I dont see what she has to do with Venezuela or Chavez. Her arguments were limited and based on evidence from early 20th century Europe. Unfortunately she did not have a time machine. So stop pushing your pacifist crap under her name.


Calling anyone who disagrees with bourgeoisie murder a pacifist is fucking pathetic if you read though my previous posts I think you will find I am more then happy when violence is used when appropriate however I do not think a war between two ruling class factions is appropriate and neither does any communist.


Also workers of Venezuela have every right to defend themselves against the meat grinder of capitalist armies even if pacifist pseudo-radicals wave their prick around in the name of what is a false radicalism.

Sorry but the workers of Venezuela were not the ones who blew up those bridges nor will be they be the one to declare war , however they will do the dieing. Your country is not as important as you think it is , just because someone opposes the US does not give them a license to treat the working class like shit.

[Artemis3]

i think its rather ridiculous that two pedestrian bridges had to be demolished. i dont know how it is there but im sure a few border checks at the bridges would have sufficed without having to totally interfere with civilian life by blowing their only local way across a river up.
You know whats ridiculous? This making news. Did you know, this is routine procedure being carried for decades? Again, you guys fall to corporate media poison.

BTW; these are not your happy iron/concrete urban pedestrian bridges, but really weak structures used by smugglers, drug trafficking, and paramilitary troops passage. And no, you don't post guards at every random rope and logs "bridge" appearing in the middle of the jungle...

[manic expression]

Rosa Luxembourg - pacifist fuck - probably a vegetarian who ate out of bins.

Yeah, you're just a regular Rosa Luxemburg! :laugh:

Rosa Luxemburg supported the Bolsheviks in the Civil War, and was able to distinguish between the self-defense of progressive forces and imperialist slaughter. So if you want to compare yourself with her, it might be good to adopt her politics for a change.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1918/12/31.htm

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Yeah, you're just a regular Rosa Luxemburg! :laugh:

Rosa Luxemburg supported the Bolsheviks in the Civil War, and was able to distinguish between the self-defense of progressive forces and imperialist slaughter. So if you want to compare yourself with her, it might be good to adopt her politics for a change.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1918/12/31.htm

Are you seriously comparing the Civil war era Bolsheviks to Venezula, fuck off back into the realms of twenty something year old virginal half wits I hear there missing an occupant.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

If only this was a good old duel between Chavez and Uribe.

That would be good to see, I would personally bring popcorn and hope for a mutual earthly departure.


But unfortunately, its the workers of Venezuela who will die along with their socialist ideals if they do not defend their countries from the pro-US imperialist Colombian government.cc

There country? Communists arn't really in with the whole working class identifying with capitalist entities thing. I'm sure whiny little middle class shits whose politics consist of attempting to be as "anti American" as possible do though. (ps they will die if they go to war, wars tend to contain alot of deaths and cutting the emotional crap means that the worker's in both county's will start becoming even more patriotic as a result of thinking people are out to kill them - see ww1 ).


[QUOTE=socialist;1604559]
Asking Venezuelan workers to lay down arms while the imperialists run riot through their country is akin to apologism for imperialism, not to mention it being pacifism.

Theres a difference between not laying down your arms and a fucking bourgeoisie leader declaring war.


You claim that violence can be used when "appropriate"? When would that be? Let me guess, when the British capitalists take away your living standards, but when imperialists take away the lives of Venezuelan workers, it is not "appropriate"?


Was it the working class of Georgia that started the invasion of south ossesita? Will it be the working class that starts a war between Columbia and Venezula.

No of course fucking not.



Of course not. Every country except my own country are stupid foreigner pigs.:rolleyes:

No its the kind of mentality though. Its a strange kind of guilt which manifests itself in supporting any twat with a gun who might kill a yank or one of their allies.

[Paul Cockshott]

I don't suggest any of that at all. Instead, I would take the "hard" currency, and use it to purchase means of production from abroad (raw materials, equipment, technology, etc).
I think that they are doing that, but the state is in addition wanting to command domestic labour -- to employ people in the education, healtcare, public investment sectors. For this it needs Bolivars.




As an anarchist, I'm not concerned about the Bolivar at all.

Are you resident in Venezuela?
If not, then it is easier to be sanguine about inflation.



Instead I believe the people have the same right to do anything that the state claims the right to do. Thus everyone should have the same right to issue their own currency. Since the Bolivar, like most existing currencies, is not backed by anything, it's basically too late to do anything about it. Instead, I would encourage various producers to issue their own currency:

Well the government there has been taking advice from people like you. Have you read their law on community currencies?
http://21stcenturysocialism.blogspot.com/2008/08/new-venezuelan-law-on-community.html

[manic expression]

Are you seriously comparing the Civil war era Bolsheviks to Venezula, fuck off back into the realms of twenty something year old virginal half wits I hear there missing an occupant.

Hey everyone, Rosa Luxemburg! Give her a hand! :lol:

Working-class struggle in 1917-1922 Russia is comparable in many ways to working-class struggle in 2009 Latin America; more than anything else, imperialism is on one side and the forces of working-class progress are on the other. It's fine if you can't understand that, and it's alright if you find defending workers from imperialism to be uncomfortable, just think up another idiotic personal insult to distract people from how empty your arguments are.

And those realms you mentioned are no longer missing an occupant...because this thread has put you in your place.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Working-class struggle in 1917-1922 Russia is comparable in many ways to working-class struggle in 2009 Latin America; more than anything else, imperialism is on one side and the forces of working-class progress are on the other. It's fine if you can't understand that, and it's alright if you find defending workers from imperialism to be uncomfortable, just think up another idiotic personal insult to distract people from how empty your arguments are.

And those realms you mentioned are no longer missing an occupant...because this thread has put you in your place.


I just don't think Chavez's populist brand of bourgeoisies politics qualifies as progressive if you do that's fine I just think you inappropriately label yourself as a Communist and seemingly as someone with a capacity for humor.

[ls]

Hey everyone, Rosa Luxemburg! Give her a hand! :lol:

Working-class struggle in 1917-1922 Russia is comparable in many ways to working-class struggle in 2009 Latin America; more than anything else, imperialism is on one side and the forces of working-class progress are on the other. It's fine if you can't understand that, and it's alright if you find defending workers from imperialism to be uncomfortable, just think up another idiotic personal insult to distract people from how empty your arguments are.

And those realms you mentioned are no longer missing an occupant...because this thread has put you in your place.

Have you read Rosa's conclusions on the national question? Probably not, conveniently ignore that if you want, also, comparing Russia to Latin America is hilarious.. yeah there's a world war going on :rolleyes:, congrats on your usual fatally flawed analysis - everything can compare to Russia if you tint your spectacles enough. And finally, defending workers from imperialism is different to being a hack like yourself who never performs an analysis and makes constant emotional responses to posts, comparing everything to Russia, coming out with wholly useless wank, Brezhnevite.

On the topic: the Columbian government is a disgustingly reactionary goon squad that seems to have it in for Venezuela and..


i think its rather ridiculous that two pedestrian bridges had to be demolished. i dont know how it is there but im sure a few border checks at the bridges would have sufficed without having to totally interfere with civilian life by blowing their only local way across a river up.

Is basically spot-on, shame for the proletarians affected by this.

[manic expression]

Have you read Rosa's conclusions on the national question? Probably not, conveniently ignore that if you want, also, comparing Russia to Latin America is hilarious.. yeah there's a world war going on :rolleyes:,

Have you read this thread? Do you even know what we're talking about? This is about opposing imperialism when it threatens the gains of workers.

Yeah, the Russian Civil War outlasted WWI by about 3-4 years. Are we supposed to revoke our support because there wasn't "a world war going on" from late 1918-1922?


congrats on your usual fatally flawed analysis - everything can compare to Russia if you tint your spectacles enough.

Most examples of class struggle in the capitalist epoch can be compared in some sense to one another. The "tint", I suppose, is materialism.


And finally, defending workers from imperialism is different to being a hack like yourself who never performs an analysis and makes constant emotional responses to posts, comparing everything to Russia, coming out with wholly useless wank, Brezhnevite.

If you don't like emotional responses, then I suggest cutting down on the "wholly useless wank" lines, it's more than a shade hypocritical.

You say there's a difference between my line and defending workers, but you're either too lazy or too incompetent to explain to us what the latter entails. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to propose something constructive instead of this grudge you seem to be carrying around.

What this comes down to, really, is that revolutionaries are prepared to oppose imperialism in Latin America. Others, who have nothing to offer but empty insults, throw around labels as if they, alone, accomplished something. When imperialism attacks, these anti-socialists try to plaster ambiguity over the situation instead of pinpointing the dynamics involved. In effect, all this does is resign these anti-socialists to the sidelines, where they belong.

[RedSonRising]

When the crux of your argument is a typo, it's time to start again.

The crux of my argument is not a typo, if you read my earlier post, don't be foolish. It is that provoking a government that has the potential of executing imperialist military aggression through unnecessary displays of undiplomatic force is not beneficial for the working class of either country. I don't even consider the explosions unnecessary, but as I stated before it seems another alternative was possible and that the safest options are being traded for the most politically exciting ones in an exhibitionist fashion.

And frankly, if one can't spell the name of a country right, and commits the same name-spelling error several times within the same post, it's not just a typo but a show of ignorance of the topic and a lack of reading into the subject. I know it's a common mistake and I'm not trying to assert that the user is stupid, not at all, I'm not trying to belittle opponents in an argument (which has become all too common here), but I doubt people would take someone seriously if they went around saying "we should stay in Irak cuz terrorists are bad" repeatedly.

[The Feral Underclass]

I'm a little bit wary of Chavez...I used to be a big supporter but after he proposed the banning of violent videos games and now he's blowing up pedestrian bridges...?

Yes because political repression against revolutionaries, smashing strikes and imprisoning union activists, that's perfectly fine...Banning video games though, that's really something to make you questions things. :rolleyes:

[ls]

Have you read this thread? Do you even know what we're talking about? This is about opposing imperialism when it threatens the gains of workers.

Do you know what you're talking about? I responded to your post in a coherent manner and now you're making a strawman.


Yeah, the Russian Civil War outlasted WWI by about 3-4 years. Are we supposed to revoke our support because there wasn't "a world war going on" from late 1918-1922?

Are you completely thick?


Most examples of class struggle in the capitalist epoch can be compared in some sense to one another. The "tint", I suppose, is materialism.

Yeah, let's compare everything to Russia.


If you don't like emotional responses, then I suggest cutting down on the "wholly useless wank" lines, it's more than a shade hypocritical.

Actually, it's a fact that your posts are just that, wholly useless wank.


You say there's a difference between my line and defending workers, but you're either too lazy or too incompetent to explain to us what the latter entails. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to propose something constructive instead of this grudge you seem to be carrying around.

I don't have a grudge against you, it's just that you hypocritically attack people despite your uncritical support for all kinds of regimes, it's more than a bit annoying.

My alternative is what's been happening with workers in Venezuela to an extent; workers' self-organisation, while the government has supposedly sponsored and setup some of it, the workers must take a much more independent role, I have also pointed out re the OP what would've been better for workers from Vacant's post (patrols). I would have preferred it if the workers who blew up the bridges refused to do that and instead offered to patrol them with guns, that would've been a better alternative for civilians who may be affected by the crossings being destroyed.


What this comes down to, really, is that revolutionaries are prepared to oppose imperialism in Latin America. Others, who have nothing to offer but empty insults, throw around labels as if they, alone, accomplished something. When imperialism attacks, these anti-socialists try to plaster ambiguity over the situation instead of pinpointing the dynamics involved. In effect, all this does is resign these anti-socialists to the sidelines, where they belong.

Could be a FOX news broadcast if you changed a few words. :cool:

[The Feral Underclass]

Stop posting spam pictures in this thread and try interacting with each other without resorting to spite and invective.

You're all warned. Play nice or don't play at all.

[manic expression]

Do you know what you're talking about? I responded to your post in a coherent manner and now you're making a strawman.

Defending workers from imperialism is not a strawman at all.


Yeah, let's compare everything to Russia.

I could compare it to a number of historical events, because they all have one thing in common: the struggle of working-class interests against imperialist interests. It's not my fault you can't make those connections, and it's not my fault you couldn't figure out something so blatantly obvious as the fact that the Russian Civil War carried on for years after World War I ended.


I don't have a grudge against you, it's just that you hypocritically attack people despite your uncritical support for all kinds of regimes, it's more than a bit annoying.

In the last few hours, you popped into two threads to launch personal attacks against me, and yet you say that you don't have a grudge? Not only do you have some personal chip on your shoulder (undoubtedly stemming from your undeniable inability to formulate an effective response), but you're in denial.

Further, my support of many socialist states does come with criticisms, and you can easily find them on multiple threads here. Try reading sometime.


My alternative is what's been happening with workers in Venezuela to an extent; workers' self-organisation, while the government has supposedly sponsored and setup some of it, the workers must take a much more independent role,

None of that illustrates how to struggle against imperialism. Those are platitudes and little more. Further, when you did propose something, it was about the bridge and not the longstanding imperialist belligerence against the workers of Latin America, which is what I've been dealing with first and foremost.

Lastly, you just admitted that working-class organization has occurred as a result of the present government of Venezuela, and yet you refuse to support these victories in the face of imperialism. How do you justify this self-contradictory stance?


Could be a FOX news broadcast if you changed a few words. :cool:

One poster between the two of us is condemning Venezuela, which is exactly what FOX does. Coincidentally enough, FOX also bases their arguments on personal grudges, baseless opinions and worthless labels. So in reality, you and FOX have quite a bit in common.

[ls]

I could compare it to a number of historical events, because they all have one thing in common: the struggle of working-class interests against imperialist interests.

This is, as you would say, 'amaterialist'


It's not my fault you can't make those connections, and it's not my fault you couldn't figure out something so blatantly obvious as the fact that the Russian Civil War carried on for years after World War I ended.

You are simply making things up, did I actually say that?


In the last few hours, you popped into two threads to launch personal attacks against me, and yet you say that you don't have a grudge? Not only do you have some personal chip on your shoulder (undoubtedly stemming from your undeniable inability to formulate an effective response), but you're in denial.

Eh, well when you hypocritically attack people, then yeah I'm going to attack you, if you hadn't done that, I wouldn't have jumped in, if you don't do that in future, I won't jump in. Simple.


Further, my support of many socialist states does come with criticisms, and you can easily find them on multiple threads here. Try reading sometime.

Like that Cuba thread, they are not proportionate criticisms.


None of that illustrates how to struggle against imperialism. Those are platitudes and little more. Further, when you did propose something, it was about the bridge and not the longstanding imperialist belligerence against the workers of Latin America, which is what I've been dealing with first and foremost.

I've proposed something is the point (which you asked of me), obviously I think that workers' self-organisation will be the best thing to stop the ruthless exploitation of workers in south America.


Lastly, you just admitted that working-class organization has occurred as a result of the present government of Venezuela, and yet you refuse to support these victories in the face of imperialism. How do you justify this self-contradictory stance?

Actually, I never said that if you read it properly.


One poster between the two of us is condemning Venezuela, which is exactly what FOX does. Coincidentally enough, FOX also bases their arguments on personal grudges, baseless opinions and worthless labels. So in reality, you and FOX have quite a bit in common.

Not really no, your dogma sounds typically FOX, I've got no dogma at all.


Not just their country. Their lives and families.

Which you would know nothing about, as you mindlessly go around making posts which support revisionist (even by ML standards) Maoist parties, like you did in the India thread and it needs pointing out to you that you did so, then you thank the post that pointed it out to you. You are a great marxist-leninist.


As opposed to crypto-chauvinists like you?

The only crypto-chauvinist here is you.


Oh no, they don't "think" other workers are going to kill them. BTW mercenaries in the service of imperialism are not "workers". The imperialist armies are literally going to kill them. If you want to be trendy pacifist and want to sit out this anti-imperialist war, please do.

And the workers should arm themselves and fight back against Professional Militaries, of course they should, it was never argued they shouldn't.


Huh? Where does Georgia come into this?

You obviously have trouble comprehending simple points.


On the contrary, I can point to many of your and your other little friends' own posts that are openly national-chauvinist and xenophobic. Such fucked up twits like you have no right to talk about the working class struggles in Venezuela or anywhere else. Here are some of your pearls of national chauvinism:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1601240&postcount=41
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1599282&postcount=26
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1592542&postcount=69

:o:rolleyes: I would honestly be embarrassed about posting that as "proof" of his chauvinism.... wow, you have proven that your level of comprehending posts is the lowest on this forum, congrats.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

[/QUOTE=socialist;1604741]Not just their country. Their lives and families.
[/QUOTE]

Communists tend not to identify with countries. Thats nationalism love I think you just have a problem of labels.

[/QUOTE=socialist;1604741]


Oh no, they don't "think" other workers are going to kill them. BTW mercenaries in the service of imperialism are not "workers".[/QUOTE]

I tend not to be too fond of non conscription troops as well however you are aware that in war people who are not fighting tend to get killed too?

Just want to check.


[/QUOTE=socialist;1604741]
The imperialist armies are literally going to kill them. If you want to be trendy pacifist and want to sit out this anti-imperialist war, please do.
[/QUOTE]

I seriously doubt that unless chavez engages in a mutal bloodbath that Columbia is going to start herding people into camps.

[/QUOTE=socialist;1604741]
That's right. The bourgeois leader declaring war is the right-wing CIA-backed, pro-imperialist Colombian state. [/QUOTE]

No one has declared war you twat however it is not the role of Communists to support national armies especially in situations like this.

[/QUOTE=socialist;1604741]
Huh? Where does Georgia come into this?[/QUOTE]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison


[/QUOTE=socialist;1604741]
On the contrary, I can point to many of your and your other little friends' own posts that are openly national-chauvinist and xenophobic. Such fucked up twits like you have no right to talk about the working class struggles in Venezuela or anywhere else. Here are some of your pearls of national chauvinism:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1601240&postcount=41
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1599282&postcount=26
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1592542&postcount=69[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]



Twat if I was being remotely serious in those posts do you really think I would still be on this board?

[manic expression]

This is, as you would say, 'amaterialist'

Prove it. Oh, right, you won't, because you can't. Again, prove me wrong or be held as the bankrupt anti-socialist that you are.


You are simply making things up, did I actually say that?

also, comparing Russia to Latin America is hilarious.. yeah there's a world war going on

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Too clueless to understand the connotations of your own words? I expected as much. Looks like your understanding of history is about as helpful as the rest of your tripe.


Eh, well when you hypocritically attack people, then yeah I'm going to attack you, if you hadn't done that, I wouldn't have jumped in, if you don't do that in future, I won't jump in. Simple.

I attack anti-socialism. You defend it, and try to use personal insults instead of effective arguments. The few times you've tried to cite historical examples to back up your points, you've made yourself look like an infinite fool. Don't worry, you can always run away from these issues, since you've done it before and you'll doubtlessly do it again.


Like that Cuba thread, they are not proportionate criticisms.

But they are correct and helpful criticisms, unlike yours. You weren't able to prove me wrong then, so I doubt you'll do it now.


I've proposed something is the point (which you asked of me), obviously I think that workers' self-organisation will be the best thing to stop the ruthless exploitation of workers in south America.

:rolleyes: You might as well have proposed that they build an amusement park on the Venezuelan-Colombian border, since it would be about as pertinent as your last proposal in terms of opposing imperialism.

Obviously you don't grasp the issue at hand, and obviously you're trying to back away from this terrible mess you've gotten yourself into. It almost makes me feel sorry for you.


Actually, I never said that if you read it properly.

what's been happening with workers in Venezuela to an extent; workers' self-organisation, while the government has supposedly sponsored and setup some of it,

Once again, you stand condemned as a hypocrite by your own words. Prove otherwise or be held as such. I'm not holding my breath.


Not really no, your dogma sounds typically FOX, I've got no dogma at all.

You only follow one thing: an incessant and childish slander of socialism. Once more, we see how much in common you have with FOX.

Oh, and I fully expect you to run away from this argument, just as you have every other time you've tried to challenge my points. After all, it's fitting for an anti-socialist such as yourself to flee at the sight of facts.

[manic expression]

Communists tend not to identify with countries. Thats nationalism love I think you just have a problem of labels.

Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.

Karl Marx, 1848


Twat if I was being remotely serious in those posts do you really think I would still be on this board?

You can say that again.

[The Red Next Door]

Okay, Chavez we are going a bit too far...

[cyu]

the state is in addition wanting to command domestic labour -- to employ people in the education, healtcare, public investment sectors. For this it needs Bolivars.

Of course that wouldn't be the way I'd do it. If the electorate supported more education, healthcare, and other public investment, I'd just let them vote on it. The electorate doesn't even need Bolivars - say the people in a township wanted more schools. I wouldn't force them to have to spend Bolivars to build any schools. Instead, they could simply vote to designate any unused areas as a school site, take unused stone from any quarry, etc. If you don't need Bolivars to pay for real estate and raw materials, then you just need resources to maintain the labor that is building the school. If the electorate wants more schools, then of course, they could simply vote more of their productive output toward maintaining the school builders.


Are you resident in Venezuela? If not, then it is easier to be sanguine about inflation.

The poor wouldn't suffer from inflation if they have no Bolivars in the first place. I would be encouraging them to switch to currency that's actually backed by productive output, so it no longer makes a difference to them whether the Bolivar inflates or not. If you want to fight capitalism, one way to do it is to ensure that the money the wealthy does hold becomes worthless - if the wealthy hold a lot of Bolivars or gold or whatever other currency, I would encourage everyone to stop accepting that as a medium of exchange, thus rendering that part of their wealth essentially useless.


Have you read their law on community currencies? http://21stcenturysocialism.blogspot.com/2008/08/new-venezuelan-law-on-community.html

That link looks very familiar - I may have seen it before on this site. As I mentioned above, I wouldn't attempt a 1 to 1 exchange ratio with the Bolivar at all (it's impossible and stupid to try to maintain 1 to 1 exchange between something that has value and something that is essentially worthless), but encourage everyone to abandon it altogether.

[Artemis3]

Here, some pics so at least you get an idea what this is all about... Since the forum won't let me post links or images, please go to vtv.gov.ve and append this to the address: noticias-nacionales/26406 Those things are obviously used to evade customs, gasoline and drug trafficking, etc

[Bright Banana Beard]

Here, some pics so at least you get an idea what this is all about... Since the forum won't let me post links or images, please go to vtv.gov.ve and append this to the address: noticias-nacionales/26406 Those things are obviously used to evade customs, gasoline and drug trafficking, etc

http://vtv.gov.ve/noticias-nacionales/26406 done

[ls]

Prove it. Oh, right, you won't, because you can't. Again, prove me wrong or be held as the bankrupt anti-socialist that you are.

Prove you wrong in what? I find it hilarious you think you've "cornered" me, you really just prove yourself evermore stupid in every post.


also, comparing Russia to Latin America is hilarious.. yeah there's a world war going on

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Too clueless to understand the connotations of your own words? I expected as much. Looks like your understanding of history is about as helpful as the rest of your tripe.

Me? :lol:


Working-class struggle in 1917-1922 Russia is comparable in many ways to working-class struggle in 2009 Latin America; more than anything else, imperialism is on one side and the forces of working-class progress are on the other. It's fine if you can't understand that, and it's alright if you find defending workers from imperialism to be uncomfortable, just think up another idiotic personal insult to distract people from how empty your arguments are.

I am well aware of how long world war I and the russian civil war lasted. I actually know a lot about world war I, it was a hobby of mine when I was 14, so why not quit while you're behind? Russian troops were still being slaughtered in 1917 until the quick descent into the treaty after nov 1917, so just before Kerensky's government fell there was the Riga offensive for example. The treaty was obviously an attempt in desperation to halt the advance of the imperialist German bourgeois; that is partly what I interpreted your argument as being and yes, obviously you were referring to the Russian civil war too. So how about you, once again, quit while you're behind.


I attack anti-socialism. You defend it, and try to use personal insults instead of effective arguments. The few times you've tried to cite historical examples to back up your points, you've made yourself look like an infinite fool. Don't worry, you can always run away from these issues, since you've done it before and you'll doubtlessly do it again.

:lol: Your supreme arrogance and confidence is admirable, but the only person who looks like a fool if the arguments are read properly, is you.


But they are correct and helpful criticisms, unlike yours. You weren't able to prove me wrong then, so I doubt you'll do it now.

No they weren't, you just said "support anti-imperialism". Three words, yes thanks a lot for the contribution genius.


what's been happening with workers in Venezuela to an extent; workers' self-organisation, while the government has supposedly sponsored and setup some of it,

Once again, you stand condemned as a hypocrite by your own words. Prove otherwise or be held as such. I'm not holding my breath.

Yeah, but I left the sentence purposely ambiguous for anyone who can read y'know it says 'supposedly' for a reason. I don't want this to turn into a long argument about Venezuela's democracy, I want to discuss the actual issue of the thread.


You only follow one thing: an incessant and childish slander of socialism. Once more, we see how much in common you have with FOX.

And you cite constant dogma, just like FOX.


Oh, and I fully expect you to run away from this argument, just as you have every other time you've tried to challenge my points. After all, it's fitting for an anti-socialist such as yourself to flee at the sight of facts.

What you mean in that other thread? You showed yourself up more than I could :cool: you don't even acknowledge that Nicaragua is revisionist. You seem to hate the word revisionist in any 'anti-imperialist' country. At least other marxist-leninists have better views on revisionism.


Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.

Karl Marx, 1848

Doesn't compute with you though.


unless you are Rosa herself I dont see what she has to do with Venezuela or Chavez. Her arguments were limited and based on evidence from early 20th century Europe. Unfortunately she did not have a time machine. So stop pushing your pacifist crap under her name.


Hey everyone, Rosa Luxemburg! Give her a hand! :lol:

And there is a lot of evidence that Rosa was more left than you think, hence my response 'have you read Rosa on the national question?', there is no reason to think she would deviate from her correct path on the question of the nation-state.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1909/national-question/ch02.htm.

[manic expression]

Prove you wrong in what? I find it hilarious you think you've "cornered" me, you really just prove yourself evermore stupid in every post.

If you took five seconds to review the thread you'd see: how was what I said "amaterialist"? I'd love to see some argument from you, but it doesn't look likely.


I am well aware of how long world war I and the russian civil war lasted. I actually know a lot about world war I, it was a hobby of mine when I was 14, so why not quit while you're behind?

Too bad you clearly implied that the two played out side-by-side. This is demonstrably incorrect, and your above ramblings don't change how wrong you were. Sorry, better luck next time.


:lol: Your supreme arrogance and confidence is admirable, but the only person who looks like a fool if the arguments are read properly, is you.

The only question is whether you're going to provide an argument in the first place. You haven't so far, that's for sure.


No they weren't, you just said "support anti-imperialism". Three words, yes thanks a lot for the contribution genius.

Obviously you know as much about the content of my posts as you do about the time-line and context of the Russian Civil War: nothing. I've made criticisms of many socialist states, and if you weren't lazily pursuing a personal grudge you'd recognize this. Of course, because of this, facts don't matter to you.


I don't want this to turn into a long argument about Venezuela's democracy, I want to discuss the actual issue of the thread.

Translation: "I contradicted myself and once again exposed my bankruptcy, but now I want to avoid the subject because I lack the intellectual integrity to back up my points".


And you cite constant dogma, just like FOX.

You've just repeated the same point about 3 times. The only one here sticking to a monotonous dogma is you. You underline your own hypocrisy better than anyone on RevLeft, past or present. In addition, you're also an anti-socialist hack, just like FOX. Oh, and you're a hypocrite, just like FOX.


What you mean in that other thread?

You ran away with your tail between your legs, which is typical of anti-socialists who can't support their pathetic positions.


Doesn't compute with you though.

Trying to blur the line between socialist societies and capitalist societies again? That's the mark of an anti-socialist reactionary.


And there is a lot of evidence that Rosa was more left than you think, hence my response 'have you read Rosa on the national question?',

That's all well and good, but the issue at hand was support for working-class gains in the face of imperialism. Rosa Luxemburg didn't agree completely with the Bolshevik line, but she applauded the march of the workers in Russia all the same. It seems that all the anti-socialist charlatans in your camp (including yourself) can't bring themselves to do this when it comes to Latin America. Comparing yourself to Rosa Luxemburg, a defender of workers' interests, is outrageous when you're refusing to heed the working-class victories in Venezuela and elsewhere. Now that's "amaterialist", as you say, and again hypocritical, as we've all come to expect from you.

I'm still waiting for something vaguely resembling an argument from you. Until you stop letting reality and facts get under your skin, you'll continue to offer nothing but some sad chip on your shoulder instead of something valid.

[Dimentio]

i think its rather ridiculous that two pedestrian bridges had to be demolished. i dont know how it is there but im sure a few border checks at the bridges would have sufficed without having to totally interfere with civilian life by blowing their only local way across a river up.

i dont know if it is just media portrayal or not but it seems that they are making Chavez look like a hot headed buffoon while Uribe is cool and collected.

i wholly support hands off Venezuela though. i certainly hope nothing worse happens.

Obviously, its an attempt by Chàvez to deflect domestic criticism for the economic situation and hide the fact that he doesn't have any idea how to progress the Bolivarian revolution.

[ls]

If you took five seconds to review the thread you'd see: how was what I said "amaterialist"? I'd love to see some argument from you, but it doesn't look likely.

And you can see what I said already, you are talking amaterialist crap, it's hardly just me who thinks so.


Too bad you clearly implied that the two played out side-by-side. This is demonstrably incorrect, and your above ramblings don't change how wrong you were. Sorry, better luck next time.

If someone doesn't know their history here, it is you, I never implied that they played out "side-by-side" but you almost seem to be denying that your post could be interpreted as including the threat of German imperialism, in your comparison of south america to russia, which is a comparison you made - not me. So the onus is on you to clarify what ever loose garbage you're talking.


Obviously you know as much about the content of my posts as you do about the time-line and context of the Russian Civil War: nothing. I've made criticisms of many socialist states, and if you weren't lazily pursuing a personal grudge you'd recognize this. Of course, because of this, facts don't matter to you.

Hold on wait; are you saying my saying in the previous post:


so just before Kerensky's government fell there was the Riga offensive for example

..is wrong? Do you want to back your ridiculous argument up? :thumbup: German troops won Riga on the 1st of Sep and on the 7th of Nov the Kerensky government was overthrown.

You don't ever make proportionate criticisms, you make up hysterical rants against any criticism directed at socialist countries, perhaps you are getting better with that, but you might want to work harder at it.


Translation: "I contradicted myself and once again exposed my bankruptcy, but now I want to avoid the subject because I lack the intellectual integrity to back up my points".

I am not going to go over the same point again and again.


You've just repeated the same point about 3 times. The only one here sticking to a monotonous dogma is you. You underline your own hypocrisy better than anyone on RevLeft, past or present. In addition, you're also an anti-socialist hack, just like FOX. Oh, and you're a hypocrite, just like FOX.

What can I say? No u.


You ran away with your tail between your legs, which is typical of anti-socialists who can't support their pathetic positions.

Actually, I realised your response was so pathetic that it outlined your failing as a socialist.


Trying to blur the line between socialist societies and capitalist societies again? That's the mark of an anti-socialist reactionary.

See, once again you sound like a typical closed-minded FOX News reader, keep it up.


That's all well and good, but the issue at hand was support for working-class gains in the face of imperialism. Rosa Luxemburg didn't agree completely with the Bolshevik line, but she applauded the march of the workers in Russia all the same.

And I support the Bolsheviks too, I support the left of the Bolshevik party which attempted to steer the Bolsheviks back into the correct proletarian path of socialism.


It seems that all the anti-socialist charlatans in your camp (including yourself) can't bring themselves to do this when it comes to Latin America.

So what do we see from you. Once again, a crude comparison of Latin America with Russia which has been denounced as amaterialist bollocks a number of times now, quit while you're behind.


Comparing yourself to Rosa Luxemburg, a defender of workers' interests, is outrageous when you're refusing to heed the working-class victories in Venezuela and elsewhere. Now that's "amaterialist", as you say, and again hypocritical, as we've all come to expect from you.

Yet more rhetoric and dogma, actually if Rosa was alive today she probably would be denounced as a reactionary by you for her positions.


I'm still waiting for something vaguely resembling an argument from you. Until you stop letting reality and facts get under your skin, you'll continue to offer nothing but some sad chip on your shoulder instead of something valid.

If you stopped making condescending amaterialist unfactual arguments instead of concrete points, you wouldn't have gotten a response from me in the first place.

So I've stated my position on Venezuela, but you seem intent on continuing to slander me.

[pranabjyoti]

Obviously, its an attempt by Chàvez to deflect domestic criticism for the economic situation and hide the fact that he doesn't have any idea how to progress the Bolivarian revolution.
Do you have? If you too don't have that, why are you criticizing him?

[Artemis3]

Obviously, its an attempt by Chàvez to deflect domestic criticism for the economic situation and hide the fact that he doesn't have any idea how to progress the Bolivarian revolution.

Obviously you must live in the moon or mars, because about Venezuela you don't know jack about.

Venezuela is in one of the best economic positions of the continent, and the Bolivarian revolution is going fine thank you.

[LeninistKing]

Well my friend, because Venezuela has a revolution of morality and honesty. Just because we are bombed with porn and violence in the US tv doesn't mean that Venezuela has to imitate us. Not to mention the excess of carbohydrates that americans are constantly bombed with all the commercials of Digiornos, Pizza Hut, Mcdonalds, I-Hop etc.

And talking about the bridge, i think that blowing up a bridge does not have an evil effect on children as violent computer games and violent movies




I'm a little bit wary of Chavez...I used to be a big supporter but after he proposed the banning of violent videos games and now he's blowing up pedestrian bridges...?

[LeninistKing]

Artemis: indeed, it is fair to state that Hugo Chavez is the world leader of the left, a sort of Napoleon Bonaparte of the XXI Century but instead of representing the bourgeoise republican class, he represents the socialist and leftist movements and forces of this world (Except of course for many, many leftists who are too perfectionists and too sectarians)

.



Obviously you must live in the moon or mars, because about Venezuela you don't know jack about.

Venezuela is in one of the best economic positions of the continent, and the Bolivarian revolution is going fine thank you.

[manic expression]

And you can see what I said already, you are talking amaterialist crap, it's hardly just me who thinks so.

Prove it. Oh, wait, you won't, because you're incapable of making an argument.


If someone doesn't know their history here, it is you, I never implied that they played out "side-by-side"

also, comparing Russia to Latin America is hilarious.. yeah there's a world war going on

Nice try.


Hold on wait; are you saying my saying in the previous post:

See above, thanks.


You don't ever make proportionate criticisms, you make up hysterical rants against any criticism directed at socialist countries, perhaps you are getting better with that, but you might want to work harder at it.

And what would "proportionate criticisms" actually entail? Are you looking for a certain mathematical ratio? Sorry, but I make criticisms when they are needed, which doesn't march with your desires.

And you have no idea what my positions actually are, because you're dumb enough to miss my line on Angola.


I am not going to go over the same point again and again.

Translation: "I know I'm completely wrong, but I really, really don't want to admit it or even talk about it. That's because I lack intellectual integrity."


What can I say? No u.

What, really, can you say? It's obvious that you and FOX agree on the issues at hand: you both oppose socialism and the progress of the workers. I understand this might be painful, but it's better if you just realize what everyone else already has.


Actually, I realised your response was so pathetic that it outlined your failing as a socialist.

And yet you're wholly incapable of showing this to any degree. You're clearly motivated by some personal grudge here, but that doesn't mean you've made a valid point so far.


See, once again you sound like a typical closed-minded FOX News reader, keep it up.

Wrong, I don't oppose the Venezuelan workers like FOX does. You do. Try to keep it straight.


And I support the Bolsheviks too, I support the left of the Bolshevik party which attempted to steer the Bolsheviks back into the correct proletarian path of socialism.

What opportunism! You only support revolutionaries when it's convenient for you, and not because it's beneficial for the workers. Let me know when you have the ability to see past this and embrace the cause of progress.


So what do we see from you. Once again, a crude comparison of Latin America with Russia which has been denounced as amaterialist bollocks a number of times now, quit while you're behind.

Right, a comparison of class struggle against imperialism to class struggle against imperialism. You, on the other hand, keep denying the internationalism of the socialist movement, because you're an anti-socialist.


Yet more rhetoric and dogma, actually if Rosa was alive today she probably would be denounced as a reactionary by you for her positions.

You'd like to believe that, I know, but it remains nothing but aimless conjecture. You can stick to half-baked alternative history, I'll stick to reality.


If you stopped making condescending amaterialist unfactual arguments instead of concrete points, you wouldn't have gotten a response from me in the first place.

Why do you keep denying this chip on your shoulder? The sooner you admit how much my arguments get under your skin, the better it will be for everyone.


So I've stated my position on Venezuela, but you seem intent on continuing to slander me.

Your position itself is nothing but slander. You want to cry foul because I called your slander out, but that's your problem. If you stopped playing victim for five seconds (when you're the one who instigated this whole thing and brought this on yourself) you might achieve something of a legitimate point. Again, I won't hold my breath.

[ls]

Prove it. Oh, wait, you won't, because you're incapable of making an argument.

You believe in some odd theory that revolutionary Russia is comparable to Latin America in the most simple terms I ever saw.


also, comparing Russia to Latin America is hilarious.. yeah there's a world war going on

Nice try.

A simple question of history: are you denying that WWI involved Russia through most of 1917 y/n


Translation: "I know I'm completely wrong, but I really, really don't want to admit it or even talk about it. That's because I lack intellectual integrity."

Translator now?


manic garbage fast forwarding some now.


What opportunism! You only support revolutionaries when it's convenient for you, and not because it's beneficial for the workers. Let me know when you have the ability to see past this and embrace the cause of progress.

Yeah yeah, more dogma.


Right, a comparison of class struggle against imperialism to class struggle against imperialism. You, on the other hand, keep denying the internationalism of the socialist movement, because you're an anti-socialist.

You wouldn't know what internationalism means though.


Why do you keep denying this chip on your shoulder? The sooner you admit how much my arguments get under your skin, the better it will be for everyone.

Your condescension rather than your arguments get under my skin, your arguments are incredibly lame.


yet more garbage

Save your breath to cool your porridge is my advice, shame you didn't accidentally get blown up along with the bridges of course, then we wouldn't have to put up with your manic, incessant ranting.

[manic expression]

You believe in some odd theory that revolutionary Russia is comparable to Latin America in the most simple terms I ever saw.

Class struggle is quite simple when you get down to it.


A simple question of history: are you denying that WWI involved Russia through most of 1917 y/n

Irrelevant. You were wrong on your face. Sorry.


Translator now?

See previous answer.


You wouldn't know what internationalism means though.

The opposite of what you're doing is a good start.


Your condescension rather than your arguments get under my skin, your arguments are incredibly lame.

This is basically proof of what I said.


Save your breath to cool your porridge is my advice, shame you didn't accidentally get blown up along with the bridges of course, then we wouldn't have to put up with your manic, incessant ranting.

Yeah, I'm sure your life would be much easier if no one called out your BS, but that's not how it works.

On a brighter note, it's good to see that you stopped trying to make a pertinent point; at least now, when you're simply pursuing a personal grudge with no regard for facts or the issues at hand, you're being honest about it.