Is there an End?

[Tatarin]

Is there an end to how small or how big "everything" is? I mean, I know about superstrings, but aren't they made out of something? And what is beyond the universe? Some say a multiverse - but what is beyond that?

Any good ideas?

:D

[Revy]

I guess that beyond the limits of the expanding universe, there is nothingness. Nothing to expand "into", but the universe expands by creating the space there. So all space exists within the universe. It's not finite since the universe is supposed to be expanding, but some people believe that sometime far from now the universe will collapse in on itself (Big Crunch).

[Muzk]

if nothing in the moment of creation created an expanding universe, why didnt in this moment of creation every nothingness create something? what if the end is the ultimate nothingness?

[Luisrah]

I don't think that it is infinite.

I mean. The Universe is finite. You can't possibly imagine it being infinite.
Because how could it expand if it is infinite?

I'm guessing that you leave the Universe like you leave the Earth. The Universe (air) starts getting less ''pressurized'' (I can't find the word)
And then you reach the empty.

Now that empty is infinite. But it does have an end. Contradictory, but, as Einstein explained, the plus infinite meets the minus infinite, in the infinite.
So the space outside the Universe is infinite, but also finite.

After you get out of the Universe, who knows if there are more Universes the same way there are more galaxies and solar systems?

[Il Medico]

Just to give you an idea of just how immense the Universe is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I34FNr_peUk

The Universe is expanding. There are two theories of how the universe will end, but there is no question, it will end. As THC said, there is the big crunch theory. Basically it states that the expansion rate will eventually slow as the universe cools and the matter (and it's gravity) will slowly slow, stop and then reverse the expansion of the universe. Eventually the universe would shrink back down to the infinitely small point from which it originated and perhaps again expand and create another universe. The other theory which is "hot" at the moment is the theory that since we know the universe is speeding up, it will continue to speed up until gravity is completely over come. First galaxies will be torn apart, then stars, then planets and people and even the atoms that make up everything, down to the sub atomic level. In short, either way you look at it, everything dies and nothing last for ever.

[Luisrah]

Just to give you an idea of just how immense the Universe is:

The Universe is expanding. There are two theories of how the universe will end, but there is no question, it will end. As THC said, there is the big crunch theory. Basically it states that the expansion rate will eventually slow as the universe cools and the matter (and it's gravity) will slowly slow, stop and then reverse the expansion of the universe. Eventually the universe would shrink back down to the infinitely small point from which it originated and perhaps again expand and create another universe. The other theory which is "hot" at the moment is the theory that since we know the universe is speeding up, it will continue to speed up until gravity is completely over come. First galaxies will be torn apart, then stars, then planets and people and even the atoms that make up everything, down to the sub atomic level. In short, either way you look at it, everything dies and nothing last for ever.

Luckily (yes luckily, by chance) that's only in some billion years.

But it does make you sad :crying:

[Il Medico]

Luckily (yes luckily, by chance) that's only in some billion years.

But it does make you sad :crying:
Actually on the grand scale, we have some hundreds of trillions of years. However, in 4 billion years (the time it took for the human race to come about) the sun is going to go red giant. Basically this will happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm9_gpGF3Xw

The sun will expand, it will consume the orbit of Mercury and Venus and possibly the Earth. It won't matter much though, even if we aren't consumed, the sun will be so close the entire planet will become molten. The atmospheres of Jupiter and Saturn will be blown off, leaving only small cores. After a while it will become a pulsating variable star. That will last about 100 million years (not a long time when you consider how old the sun is 4-6 billion already) then it will shrink and become a white dwarf. It's gravity will decrease and the outer planets (Neptune, Uranus, Pluto) will no long be held by the sun's gravity and will slowly float off into inter stellar space, becoming icy uninhabitable wastelands. The only planet not to be destroyed or chard to a cinder, or thrown off into to space will be Mars. From this point on, the sun will slowly cool until in around 20-30 billion years it will be an earth size cinder only about 300 K the same temperature as our bodies. The solar system will be dead. So, if we haven't gotten out of our solar system by the time this happens, the human race will be no more. And if by some unfortunate event the human race disappear before then, the likely hood of another intelligent species evolving and escaping this fate is little to none.

[Luisrah]

And if by some unfortunate event the human race disappear before then, the likely hood of another intelligent species evolving and escaping this fate is little to none.

First, thanks for all the info, but I already knew.

And I said that because you can think of us escaping the Earth and actually having colonised a lot of planets in 4 billion years right.

If in 4000 years we already went to the Moon... heh.

But escaping from a Big Crunch seems impossible, but who knows, it's so far away.

How is it little to none? The Earth is around 4600 million years, in that time, we have arrived here.
So if we disappeared, Earh would still have another 4000 million years to get another intelligent species. And since there is already evolved life, it would take much less time.
The more evolved life is, the faster it evolves actually.

If we turn the the Earth's age into a year, you'd have the first traces of life happening between March and April, and the first eukaryon (cell with a nucleum) only showed up between the end of September and the beggining of November.

After that, it goes much faster. The fish shows up in 16 or 17 November, the amphibian in 25 November, the reptile in 5 December, Mammals in 20 December.
The first hominides (sp?) show up at 9pm on the 31th December, and the Homo Sapiens at 11:30pm of the same day (obviously)

As you see, the transition from a prokaryon (a cell without a nucleum) to a eukaryon (a cell with a nucleum) took 7, 8, or 9 months (2683 or 3450 million years) and from the fish to what we are today, only a month and 13 days passed (around 500 million years.)

[Il Medico]

First, thanks for all the info, but I already knew.

And I said that because you can think of us escaping the Earth and actually having colonised a lot of planets in 4 billion years right.

If in 4000 years we already went to the Moon... heh.

But escaping from a Big Crunch seems impossible, but who knows, it's so far away.

How is it little to none? The Earth is around 4600 million years, in that time, we have arrived here.
So if we disappeared, Earh would still have another 4000 million years to get another intelligent species. And since there is already evolved life, it would take much less time.
The more evolved life is, the faster it evolves actually.

If we turn the the Earth's age into a year, you'd have the first traces of life happening between March and April, and the first eukaryon (cell with a nucleum) only showed up between the end of September and the beggining of November.

After that, it goes much faster. The fish shows up in 16 or 17 November, the amphibian in 25 November, the reptile in 5 December, Mammals in 20 December.
The first hominides (sp?) show up at 9pm on the 31th December, and the Homo Sapiens at 11:30pm of the same day (obviously)

As you see, the transition from a prokaryon (a cell without a nucleum) to a eukaryon (a cell with a nucleum) took 7, 8, or 9 months (2683 or 3450 million years) and from the fish to what we are today, only a month and 13 days passed (around 500 million years.)
Perhaps, but 250 million years ago there was a mass extinction of the Priman era know as the Great Death (like 80% of all life). This corresponded with our solar system passing though the debris of the serpent galaxy Sagittarius which is slowly being broken up by the tidal forces of the milky way. Unfortunately for us, we are entering into this debris field again.

99.9% of all species that have ever lived have gone extinct. There are literally thousands of species in the remaining 0.1%, and of all those species that are alive and have passed away, only one has made the leap to intelligence. The likelihood of this planet again producing a species that will make this accidental leap is negligible.

[bcbm]

(Neptune, Uranus, Pluto) will no long be held by the sun's gravity and will slowly float off into inter stellar space, becoming icy uninhabitable wastelands. er... becoming? not exactly tropical paradises now...

[Tatarin]

I guess that beyond the limits of the expanding universe, there is nothingness. Nothing to expand "into", but the universe expands by creating the space there.

But musn't the universe be in something to even exist? I mean, nothingness is what it is - nothing. Not even space. So there must be some kind of space, no?


First galaxies will be torn apart, then stars, then planets and people and even the atoms that make up everything, down to the sub atomic level.

What!? You mean that our future Democratic People's Great Socialist Galaxy will end?


er... becoming? not exactly tropical paradises now...

Then you've never been to Mars. :D

Okay, it seems the question wasn't interpreted right. I was not meaning how things will end in time, but if there is a "stop" to how small or big everything is. That is, is there something "bigger" than the universe, an outside multiverse or something etc, and is there something smaller than the atoms (like those strings-theories)?

For example, if there are superstrings that in turn make up the atoms, aren't those strings made of something, some kind of material in order for these strings to be there? As in the first reply, it is suggested that there is nothing outside of the universe, but that in itself would be strange because how can space exist in nothing? Thus there must be some kind of space for space to exist, must it not?

[Luisrah]

Perhaps, but 250 million years ago there was a mass extinction of the Priman era know as the Great Death (like 80% of all life). This corresponded with our solar system passing though the debris of the serpent galaxy Sagittarius which is slowly being broken up by the tidal forces of the milky way. Unfortunately for us, we are entering into this debris field again.

99.9% of all species that have ever lived have gone extinct. There are literally thousands of species in the remaining 0.1%, and of all those species that are alive and have passed away, only one has made the leap to intelligence. The likelihood of this planet again producing a species that will make this accidental leap is negligible.

I know you don't mean it, but I feel you are talking to me like you're talking to dumbass.

I know that there were mass extinctions, in fact, most chronological periods of the Earth start and end in mass extinctions.

The thing is, like I told you, the more evolved life is, the faster it evolves.
It's just a thing of chance. For example, by chance, all the dinosaur populations were slightly homogeneous (sp?) that's why none survived.
But after every extinction, other species have the chance to proliferate.

It's just a matter of chance. And it isn't THAT difficult. You just need to have a species that has arms that he uses for more than running and walking. As soon as a species has that, he starts tinkering with things, and if there isn't a catastrophe during that, BAM, you have an intelligent species.

And an intelligent species has more chances of surviving, since he is more adaptable. The actual development of the hominides to humans didn't take long.
The pre-australopithecus only showed up 7 million years ago. The Homo habilis (first species of the human line) showed up 3 million years ago.
7 million years is little to nothing, and 3 million is even less, considering the Earth is 4600 million years old.

But there's another point. Just because there are mass extinctions, that doesn't mean life stops evolving.
Life is like technology, what is learned isn't lost. It evolves in sort of steps.
First a fish had legs, and was able to breath outside of water, so he went to a continent. You see, things like better hearts (with more divisions) are gained, more ''bones'' are gained (I mean, more animals with internal skeleton show up).
What I'm saying seems confusing, lol, but what I mean is, when reptiles show up and proliferate, they won't disappear anymore, because atleast one species of reptiles will prevail, and keep it's characteristics.

We still have today, in life, a reflection of what the past was. By studying the more and less evolved creatures today, we can say which ''ancestors'' showed up first.
We know that fish are different today, but they still breath the way the did before, and many other things, so the legacy is still here.
I think you know what I mean,

So if all humans died tomorrow, Primates would still be here, and in another 7 million years, more or less, you'd see another intelligent species.
You see what I mean? All this work isn't lost just like that.

[Revy]

Tatarin, it's confusing to me too...which was why I said "I guess". I find both the physical and temporal infinite or finite nature of the universe to be extremely difficult to comprehend.

We will in the next few decades be able to create our own "metaverse" - virtual reality. If we ever develop mind uploading, we could leave our physical bodies in this universe entirely and live completely in the metaverse. In fact, could that be the way humanity creates an afterlife?

[Schrödinger's Cat]

But musn't the universe be in something to even exist? I mean, nothingness is what it is - nothing. Not even space. So there must be some kind of space, no?
Theoretically, according to one of the most commonly accepted models of the universe, if you left Earth and continued "east" with an inexhaustible supply of resources, eventually you would arrive back at Earth. If this model is true, by the way, it would indicate that the "Great Crunch" might very well be a plausible as far-far-far future end result. Imagine blowing up a balloon. Its diameter expands at an exceptional rate. The universe is the rubber. Eventually a balloon will reach its peak, pop, and rapidly deflate...

More ovular than a sphere. Assuming this model is true. As far as I'm aware, a lot of string theory proponents believe the universe is flat. No, there would not be "space," unless we want to get into alternative universe discussions.

The great thing about all of this is that physicists simply don't know: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/white_hole_030917.html

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Okay, it seems the question wasn't interpreted right. I was not meaning how things will end in time, but if there is a "stop" to how small or big everything is. That is, is there something "bigger" than the universe, an outside multiverse or something etc, and is there something smaller than the atoms (like those strings-theories)?

My understanding is that physicists suspect, but cannot yet prove, that spacetime is "quantized" - that is, divided up into very small discrete moments/places, much like an image on a computer screen is divided into discrete pixels. If I remember correctly, the "Planck length" is the "smallest size" and the "Planck time" is the smallest unit of time. Both are unimaginably small, and the scientific notation used to describe such small units doesn't give one a good "feel" for just how small they are.

[Muzk]

We will in the next few decades be able to create our own "metaverse" - virtual reality. If we ever develop mind uploading, we could leave our physical bodies in this universe entirely and live completely in the metaverse. In fact, could that be the way humanity creates an afterlife?

But won't the ruling class just use this to use our bodies as living batteries?:thumbdown:

[Luisrah]

We will in the next few decades be able to create our own "metaverse" - virtual reality. If we ever develop mind uploading, we could leave our physical bodies in this universe entirely and live completely in the metaverse. In fact, could that be the way humanity creates an afterlife?

But how could there be a metaverse without a universe?

For example, how can you have a mind (not physical) without a brain (physical)?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

But won't the ruling class just use this to use our bodies as living batteries?:thumbdown:

No, because humans make lousy batteries. In fact, we wouldn't even make lousy batteries because we use up energy (even at rest) rather than storing it, which is the purpose of a battery.

In terms of machinery, humans are an inefficient way of turning food into less food and waste heat.