Religious intolerance.

[manicexpressive]

This is my first official post. I hope I'm putting this in the right place.

I often have conflicting thoughts about religion. On the one hand, organized religion seems to be so oppressive. Yet, I do believe in religious freedom...that one should be allowed to practice their religion. BUT, when that practice means that homophobic, sexist or abusive ideas are being pumped into a community...again, I have an issue.

So, into this fray comes a former coworker. He is Jewish, and he is very extreme in his anti-muslim ideas....so much so that he appears to have dedicated himself to his hateful cause. Unfortunately, it looks like I can't post his the url to his blog...but, if you google "savage infidel" you should find it and hopefully see what I mean.

He is taking on a religion he has issue with. Taking issue with a religion is one thing...HOWEVER, I believe this goes over the line into pure hate speech. It is mean spirited, full of fallacies, and, at times, promotes violence.

What do you think?

[h0m0revolutionary]

If this person were promoting hatred against another for their relgiious belief, but they themselves were athiest, this would be a simple case of discrimmination.

But because he's Jewish you appear to be saying it complicates the matter. I think you're guilty (and you're certainly not alone amungst the the revolutionary left) of being so eager to allow "religious freedom" that you blur quite obvious cases of dogma and discrimmination.

You're Jewish friend has no basis in his faith to hold the views he does. His religion might be a convenient excuse for him, given that religious ideas and racism share a common lack of logic behind them. But his words and actions are discrimmination and he should be treated no more leniently just because he happens to adhere to a faith.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Religion is a personal thing, which is why criticizing or hating Christians, or whatever, for trying to make their views policy, is legit and not descrimination.

Sure, you believe gay marriage is immoral, don't marry someone of the same sex then.

I mean, would you think Christians would be pleased if Jews tried to ban non-kosher food?

[al8]

Religion is itself divisive - the spears should be pointed against the false dividing lines not along the false dividing lines provided by political superstition.
I propose it be countered by any means necessary.

[CELMX]

I think it is fine if you believe in some sort of god, deities, or whatever, just keep it personal, don't try to express any offensive views.

Personally, religion is a poison, and should be avoided at all cost. However, I am totally against any form of dogma or discrimination.

This Jewish guy you speak of is spewing total shit, it seems. He should be treated, imo, like any other fascist, hater, discriminator, etc. Shouldn't be lenient on him just b/c he's "Jewish."

[hefty_lefty]

Be careful ComradeLenin, it is not necessary to keep one views or personal beliefs to themselves, there is nothing wrong with expressing your passion for a particular belief.
If this isn't the case than many of us are guilty, spreading the word of socialist thought, I know I talk about it at every appropriate opportunity I get.
The problem with religion is the same as the one with socialism, a lack of understanding. Religion is often turned into a weapon, to fight an opposing force, to fight with an enemy who's beliefs challenge your own.
How similar politics and religion are, we are fighting, in many places violently, because we believe that capitalism is our enemy.
Are we wrong in fighting for our beliefs?

So your friend has made the muslims his enemy, the struggle is ancient and intense between the two religions with a long history of bloodshed.
Jews and muslims alike share this hatred and it is all too easily categorized as 'discrimination' or religious bullshit by those who read about it in the paper, or catch in on the 11 o'clock news.

Hate is never good, it is rarely pretty, and it 'should' not be woven into the teachings of a religion, but it is.
It is a broken world we live in and we no longer know who broke what, but we are still fighting over it.
In a way, all these religious radicals are victims of their environment, and it does not help to judge them.

[The Red Next Door]

Pay no attention to that shithead.

[manicexpressive]

All interesting stuff.

to h0m0revolutionary....I probably shouldn't have even added in the fact that he was Jewish now that I look at it. Does it really matter? Hate is hate is hate. I mean, I suppose his religion puts a certain perspective on it...that there has long been tension between some in the Jewish community and some in the Muslim community. But, in the end...it's hate.

Wait...I just thought of something else...something that I have thought of before, but forgot I had thought about...

This may be completely wrong to think about, but, when I hear someone who is Jewish spew so much hate, I have to scratch my head. After the treatment so many Jews have faced in the passed...the holocaust being the obvious main problem...I would think that lessons would be learned. To me, the rhetoric he is using is identical to the rhetoric that existed in Europe...Germany in particular...prior to and during the holocaust. The exact same arguments he is using to demonize all Muslims are the exact same arguments that were used to demonize Jews. I find this troubling and disturbing.

Anyway, just some more of my thoughts on the subject.

[Invincible Summer]

I sort of understand the dilemma you're facing; I seriously dislike religion and religious folk and their illogical, superstitious ramblings and wish they would all STFU and "get real." However, as a communist, I am supposed to be against discrimination.

Religious people are generally pretty illogical and irrational (as their basic beliefs are such), that I'm not sure if it's possible to even talk some sense into them. But is the notion of "talking sense" discriminatory?

[Decolonize The Left]

This is my first official post. I hope I'm putting this in the right place.

I often have conflicting thoughts about religion. On the one hand, organized religion seems to be so oppressive. Yet, I do believe in religious freedom...that one should be allowed to practice their religion. BUT, when that practice means that homophobic, sexist or abusive ideas are being pumped into a community...again, I have an issue.

So, into this fray comes a former coworker. He is Jewish, and he is very extreme in his anti-muslim ideas....so much so that he appears to have dedicated himself to his hateful cause. Unfortunately, it looks like I can't post his the url to his blog...but, if you google "savage infidel" you should find it and hopefully see what I mean.

He is taking on a religion he has issue with. Taking issue with a religion is one thing...HOWEVER, I believe this goes over the line into pure hate speech. It is mean spirited, full of fallacies, and, at times, promotes violence.

What do you think?

I think that this person is an anti-Islamic bigot. The photo in the top right-hand corner of the blog is testimony enough to this fact. I would consider this person a religious reactionary, and would qualify that blog as hatespeech.

- August

[Robocommie]

I sort of understand the dilemma you're facing; I seriously dislike religion and religious folk and their illogical, superstitious ramblings and wish they would all STFU and "get real." However, as a communist, I am supposed to be against discrimination.

Religious people are generally pretty illogical and irrational (as their basic beliefs are such), that I'm not sure if it's possible to even talk some sense into them. But is the notion of "talking sense" discriminatory?

To be fair, I think you'd find that whether or not religious people are illogical and irrational depends on the religious people you meet, and the culture of religiosity they were raised in. I was, for example, raised by Catholic intellectuals who encouraged me to use my brain.

You have to appreciate that religion often takes on a cultural element, for example, Catholicism. My parents are Catholic because they were raised such. I was Catholic for as long as I was because I was raised Catholic, and I still have fond thoughts of it because as a kid there was a real sense of community and of cultural tradition. Just like Jews light the Menorah, for example, we had Advent calendars around Christmas time.

There's plenty of irrational Christians, but I'd like to friendlily point out to you that there's a few folks around here from time to time that can be plenty irrational as well. You have to give people and their beliefs the benefit of the doubt, sometimes. Not everyone's a fundamentalist.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

This is my first official post. I hope I'm putting this in the right place.

I often have conflicting thoughts about religion. On the one hand, organized religion seems to be so oppressive. Yet, I do believe in religious freedom...that one should be allowed to practice their religion. BUT, when that practice means that homophobic, sexist or abusive ideas are being pumped into a community...again, I have an issue.

So, into this fray comes a former coworker. He is Jewish, and he is very extreme in his anti-muslim ideas....so much so that he appears to have dedicated himself to his hateful cause. Unfortunately, it looks like I can't post his the url to his blog...but, if you google "savage infidel" you should find it and hopefully see what I mean.

He is taking on a religion he has issue with. Taking issue with a religion is one thing...HOWEVER, I believe this goes over the line into pure hate speech. It is mean spirited, full of fallacies, and, at times, promotes violence.

What do you think?

It's wrong of him, but what are we going to do even if he refuses to change his opinion? Arrest him? Kill him?

[Invincible Summer]

To be fair, I think you'd find that whether or not religious people are illogical and irrational depends on the religious people you meet, and the culture of religiosity they were raised in. I was, for example, raised by Catholic intellectuals who encouraged me to use my brain.

You have to appreciate that religion often takes on a cultural element, for example, Catholicism. My parents are Catholic because they were raised such. I was Catholic for as long as I was because I was raised Catholic, and I still have fond thoughts of it because as a kid there was a real sense of community and of cultural tradition. Just like Jews light the Menorah, for example, we had Advent calendars around Christmas time.

There's plenty of irrational Christians, but I'd like to friendlily point out to you that there's a few folks around here from time to time that can be plenty irrational as well. You have to give people and their beliefs the benefit of the doubt, sometimes. Not everyone's a fundamentalist.

Fair enough. But I'm not just talking about fundies... just the fact that lots of Christians (as it's the easiest example for me to relate to) will go on about Christ and how good god is and such disturbs me. These people may scoff at the idea of leprachauns/bigfoot/etc but they will believe in some supreme force that has predestined our lives, and will judge us and decide whether or not we go to a "good" afterlife or a "bad" one.
It's just the basic belief system that makes no sense and is irrational

[ComradeMan]

This is my whole problem with the Swiss Minarets thing too.... We have to tolerate other people's religious beliefs all over the place, but what about when those religious beliefs are intolerant and/or incompatible with non-religious expressions of tolerance?
The Jewish religion and the Jewish race are not so easy to separate seeing as you can only be Jewish if your mother is- according to Orthodox Judaism. Although in modern times some forms of Judaism have made exceptions for children born of a non-Jewish mother the general feeling is very orthodox. We also have the concept of the chosen people and the "unclean" gentile. We have the concept of discouraging converts. I knew a Jewish family where one man had converted to Christianity- he was practically ostracised from the community... Problems, problems, problems....

Spiritual beliefs are fine as long as they are gentle and personal, aggressive religion for me is a big "NO"! Whatever form it takes.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

The Jewish religion and the Jewish race are not so easy to separate seeing as you can only be Jewish if your mother is- according to Orthodox Judaism. Although in modern times some forms of Judaism have made exceptions for children born of a non-Jewish mother the general feeling is very orthodox. We also have the concept of the chosen people and the "unclean" gentile. We have the concept of discouraging converts. I knew a Jewish family where one man had converted to Christianity- he was practically ostracised from the community... Problems, problems, problems....

Who cares?

[Robocommie]

Fair enough. But I'm not just talking about fundies... just the fact that lots of Christians (as it's the easiest example for me to relate to) will go on about Christ and how good god is and such disturbs me. These people may scoff at the idea of leprachauns/bigfoot/etc but they will believe in some supreme force that has predestined our lives, and will judge us and decide whether or not we go to a "good" afterlife or a "bad" one.
It's just the basic belief system that makes no sense and is irrational

Sure, I dig. But it might make no sense for you, but that doesn't mean it has no meaning for someone else. I mean, there's a lot of different ways of looking at God and at spirituality, some of them very different. It may seem irrational to you, but a lot of people find a lot of worth in it as a road to inner peace and cultivating benevolent attitudes towards others. I personally feel that I owe much of my Socialist tendencies to certain values I picked up in my studies of comparative religions.

And really, when it comes down to rationality, there's a lot in life that isn't so rational. Everytime I've found myself falling in love for example, there's never been anything rational about how I felt. And some might point out that the compassion and concern we feel for our fellow human beings as Socialists is not entirely rational in the sense of self-interest, and yet we fight for what we think is just and right, which are concepts that are themselves very abstract.

Humanity at times can be very irrational, but I think that's one of the things that makes them so interesting, and at times, supremely endearing.

[manicexpressive]

It's wrong of him, but what are we going to do even if he refuses to change his opinion? Arrest him? Kill him?
Well, excellent point. Of course we can't change the guys mind. So, what CAN be done. What can be done about people spreading hate? Should the website be reported to...someone...and if so...who? Should it be ignored and written off as jerk? Does he pose a real threat? Is he helping to create a community where others feel unsafe? Is he someone that action of some sort should be taken against? What actions should or could be taken in a case like this?

I am using this specific case merely as an example. I know this guy. There seems to be thousands of sites dedicated to hate and intolerance out there, and I wonder what happens with these. Or, does it all fall into the "free speech" category, and although I might not like it, and even see it as dangerous, should it just be accepted as reality. What are good ways to counteract his views?

A whole bunch of thoughts in there....sorry!

[hefty_lefty]

What can be done about people spreading hate?
Are any of us guilty of this, spreading the hate of capitalism via websites?
Some here are very 'passionate' in their intolerance of capitalism, hosting a deep-seated hatred for it, and openly revealing it.
So, is some hate ok while others not, some justified and others not?

Spreading hate is counter-productive, I agree, but the last thing we want to be is hypocritical. Hypocrisy will strip our thoughts of all value and importance.

How can I judge this guy if I myself hold hatred for certain things?
Those who spread hate attract hate, he will suffer in the end and so he is best left to his own devices.

[Jimmie Higgins]

What can be done about people spreading hate?
Are any of us guilty of this, spreading the hate of capitalism via websites?
Some here are very 'passionate' in their intolerance of capitalism, hosting a deep-seated hatred for it, and openly revealing it.
So, is some hate ok while others not, some justified and others not?

Spreading hate is counter-productive, I agree, but the last thing we want to be is hypocritical. Hypocrisy will strip our thoughts of all value and importance.

How can I judge this guy if I myself hold hatred for certain things?
Those who spread hate attract hate, he will suffer in the end and so he is best left to his own devices.

There's the hate of the oppressor and the hate of the oppressed and the two are not the same. So a native american who hates colonists is not the same as colonists who hate native americans for not letting them settle wherever they want.

Is a worker hating his boss for hurting his living standard the same as a boss hating a worker for not being more exploitable? The the hate a someone being raped for the rapist the same as the rapists hatred of women in general or the person he is raping in particular?

When it comes to religion though, religion when used in oppression, is not the source of the oppression. More commonly it is a ruling class using religion to justify it's rule or racism or oppression. When the pope said it was ok to convert or kill native people in the Americas, this was not something out of catholic religion, it was out of the interests of the catholic monarchist feudal system to grab as much wealth as it could get. When hindus have violent pogroms against muslems in India, the source is not the religion, but the politics and the social conflicts in India.

[hefty_lefty]

Fair enough.
I do not know the origonal sinner is this topics situation, who cast the first stone.
I do not know who is wrong or right in this situation, who's hate is justified, who's forefathers stole what or killed who.
So I cannot judge anyone.

One thing I can say though, that dude spreading hate...he believes he is the one in the right. How did he come to believe so strongly in his convictions?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Fair enough.
I do not know the origonal sinner is this topics situation, who cast the first stone.Original wrong is a little cloudy - I think it's more important to look at whose interests are being served in any given situation.


I do not know who is wrong or right in this situation, who's hate is justified, who's forefathers stole what or killed who.
So I cannot judge anyone.The hatred of a native american towards settlers destroying his whole way of life and community, may be just as earnest as the hate of a Settler for natives who killed his family and destroyed his crops, but can you seriously equate the two on political grounds? The native is defending himself whereas the settler has been promised someone land lived on by other people by some colonial government or some decree of US law.


One thing I can say though, that dude spreading hate...he believes he is the one in the right. How did he come to believe so strongly in his convictions?I'm sure for any number of different reasons, but I think in general that for professionals and working class people and even the elites to a certain extent, the logic of the society we live in just doesn't make sense. Our rulers use this against us to divide us so or simply to give us answers that don't involve the overhaul of the existing system. So people fill in the gaps with parts of what they've been told (racism: if everyone in capitalism has a fair chance to succeed and ethnic and religious minorities are observably not succeeding, then there must be something wrong with those people is probably the thinking of most right-wingers). Religion can provide an answer to earthly injustice by promising a just world after death or by saying that suffering is punishment for bad actions or not believing the correct things or not having the correct morals.

I don't know if much can be done to change people's racist ideas one by one. I think the better thing is to focus on fighting systemic racism and bigotry in society, correctly point out the social source of these injustices (capitalism, class society, inequality), and build opposition to it. Fighting against systematic racism will case some people who are convinced of racism to bitterly oppose us, but on the whole it will help us build class-solidarity as people realize that far from benefiting when women or religious minorities or whoever, as workers we all suffer when any part of our class is oppressed.

[dongur]

religion intolerance can be positive influences on a country if the separation of religion and state is maintained. Integration of religion, nationalism and politics can have a devastating effect on religious freedom.