Do women invite rape upon themselves by dressing revealingly [Archive]

GPDP

19th November 2009, 02:27

Just to clarify, I lend very little credence to such a position, as it essentially says it's a woman's fault for being raped if she was scantily dressed at a party environment or on the street. Nevertheless, it appears to be a popular idea, though thankfully the women I've seen confronted by such woman-blaming ideas are good at fighting back.

One such instance of this came up yesterday during one of my Sociology classes. The topic of the day was about rape in a university setting, particularly parties where alcohol is involved. One guy decided to chip in the idea that women are more likely to be raped in such environments if they are wearing "sexy" clothing to draw men's attention, thus putting part of the blame on such women. Fortunately, most of the class, myself included, jumped on him for this, with the only person backing him up being a conservative Muslim girl. Nevertheless, he insisted that while it does not justify the rape, he kept going on about how he was being "realistic" in bringing this up, and that there will always be male assholes that will be seduced and are willing to force themselves onto women, thus women should be aware of this and protect themselves by dressing in such a way so as to prevent this, and if they don't, then it's partly their fault.

This discussion went on for most of the class period, which was distracting and annoying. The professor kept making the point that it is not the job of Sociology to seek blame, but to identify the social forces that create the conditions that lead to acts such as rape. And still this guy got hung up on individual women's faults, which irritated the fuck out of everyone, and probably led most everyone in class to look at him as a misogynistic fuck, even though he would obviously vehemently deny such an accusation.

Is that an accurate way to brand people that hold such positions, would you say? I would say so, at least implicitly, but I'd like some opinions on this.

19th November 2009, 03:02

Yes, I think it's obviously an accurate way to brand someone who blames a woman for being raped.
I also don't think the question of whether or not women are responsible for being raped (:rolleyes:) is an appropriate topic for the women's struggle forum, so I'll move it to the broader Discrimination forum (or perhaps OI) as soon as I figure out how to.

Pierson's

19th November 2009, 03:12

the person/s doing the rape is/are, of course, responsible for the rape. end of story.

the person on the recieving end may well be dressing revealingly, btu that doesn't mean anything. if that was a factor, why aren't there more rapes on nude beaches? (i don't know the numbers, but i guess it would be very low.)

as to how to 'brnad' people who hold that position, stupid might work.

Il Medico

19th November 2009, 03:42

What? What a ridiculous question to ask. Women don't invite rape by dressing in a less then modest fashion. But you seem to agree. So why the hell is there even a thread on this?

GPDP

19th November 2009, 04:01

What? What a ridiculous question to ask. Women don't invite rape by dressing in a less then modest fashion. But you seem to agree. So why the hell is there even a thread on this?

Perhaps it was wrong of me to begin with a question. What I intended to get out of the thread was to discuss ways to counter such an idea, perhaps by looking at more pertinent factors behind rape.

RGacky3

19th November 2009, 08:20

Do people asking if women invite being raped by their dress invite being punced in the face for being douche bags?

Do guys who wear scarves and barrets during the summer invite having their barrets knocked off and scarves pulled since they are probably pretentious dicks?

Do people who wear nice watches invite being mugged?

I could think of more examples, but you get the point.

Revy

20th November 2009, 06:16

The bottom line: Nobody "invites" rape. or it would not be rape. Rape by its definition is a non-consensual act.

Jazzratt

20th November 2009, 12:38

This view and ones like it are distressingly common. They can be aired in mainstream newspapers and even by judges. There was an article in the Daily Mail (that bastion of progressive thought we all know and love) recently, for example, that took the view women who drank too much were partially to blame should they be raped.

Here's a quick heads up for the knucle dragging misogynist cavemen: It's not a woman's responsibility to get you not to rape her, it's yours. I mean for fuck's sake, I've managed to avoid raping people all these years even people who haven't been dressed in burqas and/or nun's habits. It's amazing how easy it is not to rape someone who is drunk or has had lots of sex before. If you need instructions on how to exercise the modicum of self control it takes not to rape another human being you should cut your fucking dick off and withdraw from society as much as possible.

The Red Next Door

28th November 2009, 03:27

No. they certainly don't. Just because women dress, a certain way doesn't give a person the right to harass her or rape her. She could of been dressing like that for her boyfriend or for a role she is playing a play or film. People who think otherwise are fucking dumbasses.

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor

28th November 2009, 04:27

I'd suggest blame should be considered in the following terms. When something bad happens, the actions of which person were necessary for the crime to occur. A women dressing revealingly is not necessary for a rape to occur.

Honestly, I think blame is a rather stupid concept in general. Who cares who is to blame. What are we going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again?

There is a kernel of truth in the criticism though. Women need to realize that the world isn't fair and just. There are men who will take advantage of them regardless of their clothing. They need to be careful.

If I can time travel, am I to blame if I send myself to a German headquarters with the "I love Jews" in German on my shirt? I'm not to "blame." It was still a rather unwise thing to do, in my book.

I don't think women are at risk by dressing revealingly. It's certainly not even close to the level where one might say "Excuse me, shouldn't you have been more careful?" The issue here is that most rapists are genetically predisposed to be violent criminals. Or in other cases, they are environmentally turned into violent criminals. Either way, society has to focus on the people who can do something about the behavior. Regular citizens. This includes speaking up against rape, offering to walk friends to their car, ensure drunk friends make it home safely, etc.

Really, women are in no way at fault, but we've gone a bit off the deep end if our solution to this problem is to tell rapists to start being good people.

RedRise

28th November 2009, 05:34

I think that if women walking around flaunting it for all they're worth barely covering themselves and are in the sort of places where nasty stuff is likely to happen there is a much higher chance of them getting raped but that certainly shouldn't mean it's their fault. Perhaps the woman should have been a bit more careful but the man is in the wrong because he should be able to restrain himself unless he has some mental issue.

28th November 2009, 06:35

Honestly, the whole premise of this argument is absurd and fundamentally misunderstands the nature of rape. Rape is not an act of sexual passion or attraction; it's an act of violence - of asserting dominance. This is a well-known fact.
One could argue more 'excusably', I suppose, that women who dress revealingly invite aggressive sexual advances (though this argument - while more logical than the one put forward in the OP - is still incredibly chauvinistic, as it continues to absolve the man - the acting party in this case - of responsibility for his own actions). But the bottom line is that rape, in the overwhelming majority of cases, is not the result of sexual attraction, so the premise of this thread is nonsensical anyway.

Ernest Valdemar

28th November 2009, 06:43

Women need to realize that the world isn't fair and just.

Somehow I think women have pretty much got that one nailed down, without having to be lectured about it by men.

Schrödinger's Cat

28th November 2009, 07:08

I don't really know if anyone here thinks a person should be blamed for their rape. This mentality of blaming the victim also seems common in cases where suburbanites wander into the wrong part of a city and get killed or robbed. A curious thought process, to be sure. I suppose one could argue that you are statistically more likely to be raped/killed/robbed, but that could be applied to any conscious decision like, say, leaving the house. You said:

One guy decided to chip in the idea that women are more likely to be raped in such environments if they are wearing "sexy" clothing to draw men's attention, thus putting part of the blame on such women.My question relates to whether he explicitly (or just obviously) blamed rape victims or if he just threw out the idea that there's probably a statistical correlation. You said "thus" but is that just a conclusion you drew or was it his own perverse rationalizing?

A more interesting thread might relate to the use of alcohol and what constitutes "consent," especially if both parties are drunk or one moreso than the other.

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor

28th November 2009, 18:27

Somehow I think women have pretty much got that one nailed down, without having to be lectured about it by men.

You're 90% right. I probably should have worded things more carefully. That said, we still have women and men putting themselves in stupid situations because of a lack of information.

I was also incorrect in saying "women." Men need to realize this as well. I have a sister with severe cognitive difficulties. She is self-sufficient, but she is excessively trusting. She isn't really aware of these kinds of dangers.

Honestly, some women don't know enough not to do simple things like keep their drink in view at all times. Society really fails women in terms of making them aware of such dangers.

So I should've worded things in a more appropriate way, but I'll still "lecture." If me inconveniencing people with "obvious facts" saves one women from being raped, I'd say it's worth it.

As soon as we assume people "already know" things, we stop telling them. That puts everyone at risk.

ChrisK

28th November 2009, 19:53

A more interesting thread might relate to the use of alcohol and what constitutes "consent," especially if both parties are drunk or one moreso than the other.

I don't know about everyone else, but if i were so drunk that I didn't realize the girl couldn't or hadn't consented my dick wouldn't work well enough to rape her.

I'm a very forgiving person. Jails are a stupid concept and capital punishment is wrong. Ted Bundy shouldn't have been given the death penalty. Yet guy's who rape girls at parties ought to be given a Dexter style execution (or at least have their dick cut off and be forced to pee through a tube).

Revy

28th November 2009, 21:45

I'm a very forgiving person. Jails are a stupid concept and capital punishment is wrong. Ted Bundy shouldn't have been given the death penalty. Yet guy's who rape girls at parties ought to be given a Dexter style execution (or at least have their dick cut off and be forced to pee through a tube).

What inconsistent nonsense.

Bud Struggle

28th November 2009, 22:11

I just saw something about that last night on Inside Edition. Women getting drunk in NYC clubs passing out and then guys literally picking them up and carrying them out taking them somewhere and raping them.

It seems to be done all of the time--there are convicted sex predators that prey on these women and there isn't much being done about it for the most part.

http://www.cbspressexpress.com/div.php/cbs_tvdg/release?id=22784

New York, NY - September 17, 2009 - In New York City, where thousands of women flock to the trendiest clubs every week, safety experts say many don't realize the risks they may face. After a number of high profile murders and rapes associated with people who have frequented nightclubs and bars in NYC, INSIDE EDITION conducted a two month hidden camera investigation.

For the report, Inside Edition exclusively obtained surveillance footage taken five months ago at Marquee, the ultra-trendy Manhattan nightclub. It shows 39-year-old Luis Zambrano, accosting a young woman who had passed out on a couch. She momentarily wakes up and tries to push him away, but he doesn't give up. Then he drags her limp body off a couch and she falls to the floor. Zambrano then picks her up and drags her down a flight of stairs and out of the club. According to police, he kidnapped and raped her. On September 9th, Zambrano pleaded guilty to charges of attempted kidnap and attempted rape.

"Luis Zambrano is not unusual. The fact that we have him on videotape is the unusual part," says Lisa Friel, the Chief of the Manhattan District Attorney's Sex Crimes Unit. She says this shocking video captures the dangers young women can face during a night out at the clubs. "Not a week goes by that we don't get one of these cases coming into the unit to investigate." she says.

Knight of Cydonia

4th December 2009, 09:06

the only one who deserves the blame here is the dirty mind and so forth, but we can not blame pornography that in fact has become the daily food for the young and old, all that depends on one's own. Basically if it was someone who was in his mind just porn, porn and all kinds of dirty thoughts ... then the rape would have occurred.

and later many people will blame the way and minimal fashion contemporary woman ...

and that SUCK!!!:mad:

Qwerty Dvorak

4th December 2009, 17:28

Is it a matter of responsibility or merely one of probability? It seems very very obvious to me and most people that to blame a woman for being raped because she wore revealing clothes or anything else is a horrible, twisted and deeply mysoginistic thing to do. That's not even a debate I'm prepared to have because it's fact and anyone who disagrees is a nutter pure and simple.

But simply saying that rape is more likely to happen in certain circumstances is not necessarily bad, is it? It would need to be backed up with sound evidence. I don't know if it is true that women who wear revealing clothes at parties are more likely to be raped, and I wouldn't automatically believe it without proper evidence. But it's an argument that can legitimately be made by people who are not twisted mysoginist fucks.

The fundamental distinction is this: just because something is more likely to happen to you, doesn't make it your fault when it does. I believe South Africa has the highest rate of rape in the world, that doesn't mean South African women are at fault for being there when it happens. Similarly, homosexuals are not to blame for homophobic attacks and so on (there are probably people who believe that the above people are to blame, but that puts them squarely back in the "nutters pure and simple" category).

Your professor said that the class was about identifying the social forces that create the conditions that lead to acts such as rape. To assert that women who wear revealing clothes to parties are more likely to be raped is to assert that lust, or an inability to control sexual desires, is a large part of the crime of rape (the other part being, as we know, power). That assertion is not in itself a mysoginistic thing, and can be helpful in analysing the crime of rape and even preventing it. But this all assumes that the analysis is devoid of any attempt to attribute blame. Attempting to blame women for rape is, as I have said, stupid and reactionary.

Dr. Rosenpenis

5th December 2009, 23:09

about time somebody locked this thread, ffs

redSHARP

6th December 2009, 22:53

rape is rape, the fault is on the raper.

Comrade Gwydion

8th December 2009, 11:16

scarletghoul

8th December 2009, 11:22

The argument that it's the woman's fault is a disgusting but all too common view .
Reminds me of a joke I heard, which outlines the ridiculous nature of such an argument:
"What is the number one cause of paedophilia in the UK? Sexy kids."

RGacky3

8th December 2009, 11:27

An acquintence of mine complained that a boy french kissed her 'without her consent'. I felt really bad for her and was shocked that some idiot tried to do that.

Until, later I found out some extra information.
a) She and the boy we on a date.
b) The lady sleeps around a lot.
c) She said goodbye by kissing him on his mouth.

Apperantly, during the goodbyekiss, he must have put out his tongue or something.

Thats stupid, he put his tongue in her mouth because thats what he thought was going on, its rediculous to claim that is somehow related to rape at all, he did'nt hold her down and kiss her, or wait till she was drunk and passed out, he just miss judged.

Comrade Gwydion

8th December 2009, 11:31

Thats stupid, he put his tongue in her mouth because thats what he thought was going on, its rediculous to claim that is somehow related to rape at all, he did'nt hold her down and kiss her, or wait till she was drunk and passed out, he just miss judged.

And yet, she was angry/shocked 'because it was without her consent'.

Couldn't drunkeness also lead to 'missjudgements'?

(Still, devil's advocate)

RGacky3

8th December 2009, 12:22

And yet, she was angry/shocked 'because it was without her consent'.

Couldn't drunkeness also lead to 'missjudgements'?

In my opinion she was angry/shocked probably because she's a little bit of a brat.

Of coarse drunkeness could lead to missjudgements, but that is not the same as rape, or even "kissing rape" or whatever, if she was drunk and passed out, and a guy came up to her and madeout with her, thats differenct, but they were kissing and he thought it was a french kiss.

If a woman feels up my junk while kissing am I gonna say "OH she touched me without consent," no, if I don't want it happening, I'll move her hand, she missjudged, and thats that. I thought they were french kissing so he put his tongue in, so what.

8th December 2009, 12:44

I did not read all this, but I read the OP and some posts after.

Firstly, obviously like all others here, I dissagree: a woman does not invite rape by dressing sexy or being at parties.

However, (playing devil's advocate here) let's look at this, slightly less dramatic scenario Okay, first, this is not a "slightly less dramatic scenario", and I know you are well-intentioned but it is imperative that this is understood. Implying that there is in any way any sort of parallel between a girl getting kissed on a date and rape is not only absurd, but is a dangerous detraction from the gravity of rape. No one requests consent before going in for a kiss, and if someone I was dating asked my consent to kiss me, I'd probably reject them simply because they had to ask. Furthermore, kissing has nothing at all to do with rape. Even if the guy your friend was dating had requested consent, your friend had said "no", and the guy had proceeded to kiss her anyway, it would still have absolutely nothing to do with rape.

An acquintence of mine complained that a boy french kissed her 'without her consent'. I felt really bad for her and was shocked that some idiot tried to do that. Why? As I said above, who asks for consent before going in for a kiss? There is nothing at all wrong with such a scenario - it's very much the way it works, and it isn't shocking or wrong at all.

Until, later I found out some extra information.
a) She and the boy we on a date.
b) The lady sleeps around a lot.
c) She said goodbye by kissing him on his mouth.

Apperantly, during the goodbyekiss, he must have put out his tongue or something.

Obviously, a 'no' is a 'no'. But kissing someone who you're dating, doesn't sound like a 'no' at all.
How would you judge this scenario?I would suggest that your friend - if she is indeed implying that what occurred is related to rape in any way, shape, or form - is strikingly insecure and needs to quite diminishing the seriousness of rape in order to get attention.

And yet, she was angry/shocked 'because it was without her consent'.

Couldn't drunkeness also lead to 'missjudgements'?

Drunkenness leads to misjudgments all the time; alcohol is notorious for inhibiting the ability to make sound decisions. But what does a misjudgment have to do with rape? If a woman gets shitfaced of her own volition at a party and some guy decides to take advantage, it's a shitty thing for him to do. But it isn't rape. And again, suggesting that it is only undermines the seriousness of rape and actually serves to legitimize disgustingly chauvinistic and reactionary victim-blaming sentiments such as the one expressed in the title of this thread.

ComradeMan

8th December 2009, 12:48

Well I think we know the answer to this question don't we and I was somewhat surprised that the question would be posed even in an academic "thought provoking" way.

Interestingly however in Saudi Arabia a woman who has been raped may actually be prosecuted under law for adultery.

Kwisatz Haderach

9th December 2009, 07:40

Next burning question of the day:

Do Californians invite earthquakes on themselves by living in California?

Discuss.

Qwerty Dvorak

9th December 2009, 22:39

Next burning question of the day:

Do Californians invite earthquakes on themselves by living in California?

Discuss.
What a stupid question.

Everyone knows they invite earthquakes on themselves by tolerating homosexuality.

Thirsty Crow

10th December 2009, 12:26

I think we ought to be more careful with the whole "branding" issue.

There is a difference, IMO, between two claims such as these:
1) if a woman dresses revealingly in a given social situation, chances of her being sexually molested increase

2) if a woman dresses revealingly, she invites sexual invitation and by extension sexual molestation. Therfore, women shouldn't dress revealingly.

The second thesis shifts blame and responsibility on women, whereas the first does not, at least explicitly.
The border is quite fuzzy :confused:

RedAnarchist

10th December 2009, 13:10

If this was true, rape wouldn't have been a crime in the West until recently. Women historically have had to wear very restrictive, conservative clothing (see the Victorians for good examples of this), yet rape existed even then. Women (or men) do not invite rape by dressing in revealing clothes, or getting drunk in public, or even being outside at night. The only person to blame is the rapist, the man (or even woman in some cases) who seeks to commit a violent act of dominance over another person.

This shows the level of privilege in society - men (usually) do not need to fear rape, but only need to fear being mugged, whilst women have to worry about the possibility of either being mugged, or raped (and sometimes killed). LGBT people often risk death just by being themselves, or people from ethnic minorities simply for being from an ethnic minority.

blank

11th December 2009, 00:59

am better question for asking: do people who ask such stupid questions are subject to ridicule? and am rapists subject to invite upon for their selves subject to violent castration and beheading? (see other post why am not allowed for law enforcement in socialist society. i am fucked in head and filled with resentment and rage. fuck ery one! two weeks since meds am go fucking nuts. fuck amerikkka in throat with knife!)

ery thyme i hear one of these reactionary utter this question i want make smash face with sledge hammer!!! set their fucking carcass on fire and dance around enflamed carcass like psycho ape! am hate those to death! am hate them all!

and this sewer (many call a society, fuck that! is just sewer filled with foulest of ape shit. fuck amerikkka in throat with knife!) dresses women, young women (i mean fucking eight years old!) like porno star. fucking sick! then blame them for being raped. typical amerikkka ideology! just like with wars is wage against third world. blame third world for wars am wage. fuck amerikkka in throat with knife!

brigadista

11th December 2009, 04:18

the question is why would a male think that a womans form of dress entitles him to form the opinion that she is available to him?

REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL

11th December 2009, 07:35

I find it hard to think that there is anything other than covert misogyny motivating this? Even if the people saying it aren't exactly "aware" of it.

I mean, if you get attacked and beaten up nobody on earth would claim you "shouldn't of invited attack by looking so weak."

Glenn Beck

11th December 2009, 08:15

Even if women who wear sexually provocative clothing ARE more likely to get raped its fucking monstrous to justify rape by saying that the victim "had it coming" or somehow partially deserved to get raped; was "inviting" it. Leaving your house makes you more likely to get mugged, does that mean if we don't all stay in our homes huddled in fear we "have it coming"? Fuck that, nobody deserves to get raped more than anyone else, you could say someone can be such an asshole that they deserve to get punched in the jaw, someone flaunting their bling in a slum might in some way deserve to get robbed, but I literally cannot think of a single circumstance where it would be even remotely understandable to say of someone that they "have it coming" to be sexually assaulted.

Unless you're a sexist dipshit, that is.

11th December 2009, 08:43

I actually just looked this up, because I wanted to find some sources to back up my earlier post - which I think was sufficient to put the case to rest - where I explained that rape is an act of asserting power and dominance rather than having anything to do with attraction.
First, I found a study had been done in Britain in (I think) 2005 in which 28% of those surveyed were of the view that if a woman was being flirtatious, she could be partially blamed for being raped while 6% said she could be fully blamed; 26% of those surveyed expressed the view that if a woman was wearing revealing clothing, she could be partially blamed for being raped while an additional 4% expressed the opinion that she could be fully blamed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00084/TIM111WhsrgC21_84518a.gif

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article592339.ece

Needless to say, those numbers are pathetic. Not terribly surprising, though.

To back up what I said earlier about attraction being irrelevant to rape - from the Southern Arizona Center Against Sexual Assault:

Myth: Women who dress sexy are more likely to be raped
Fact: The way you dress has nothing to do with being raped. Rape is not about sexual attraction it is about power and control. Women who dress in baggy clothes that cover their bodies are just as likely to be raped. Rape is a crime of opportunity, NOT desire.http://azrapeprevention.org/sites/azrapeprevention.org/files/07-SACASA.pdf

/thread ;)

Dean

11th December 2009, 17:19

Is that an accurate way to brand people that hold such positions, would you say? I would say so, at least implicitly, but I'd like some opinions on this.

Abso-fucking-lutely. Nobody ever "invites" rape on themselves by nature of the definition of "rape."

Bud Struggle

11th December 2009, 18:01

Abso-fucking-lutely. Nobody ever "invites" rape on themselves by nature of the definition of "rape."

The frightening thing is that roughly 30% of the men in Apikoros' statistics think they are being (at least somewhat) "invited" by a drunk flirtations woman in sexy clothes.

So what would the appropriate thing for a woman to do?

Granted it is never right to have sex without complete permission, but those 30% seem to present a clear danger to women if they let their guard down.

brigadista

11th December 2009, 23:45

The frightening thing is that roughly 30% of the men in Apikoros' statistics think they are being (at least somewhat) "invited" by a drunk flirtations woman in sexy clothes.

So what would the appropriate thing for a woman to do?

Granted it is never right to have sex without complete permission, but those 30% seem to present a clear danger to women if they let their guard down.

yeah well that is their fantasy not what is really happening- its not about" what would the appropriate thing for a woman to do" -women are not responsible for controlling mens behaviour - men are responsible for themselves