Zeitgeist

[Political_Chucky]

What are your views on the Zeitgeist movement, The Venus Project, and all related? I haven't been on here for a minute, and I don't give a fuck if there's other threads on it I want updated views. Thanks:)

Oh yeah heres some links if you don't know what the hell i'm talking about

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9rLpHt3bL4

Also, mods please move to the appropriate thread if this is in the wrong one thanks.

[Kayser_Soso]

Bullshit conspiracy theories. Worthless.

[punisa]

It's basically a project funded by North Korean government, devoted to spread love, respect and utmost obedience for the great leader Kim :laugh:

On the serious side, Zeitgeist is an interesting video. It has 2 key elements that we must exploit:
1) It reached a massive audience, primarily the anti-capitalist ones
2) many from those who watched it will soon realize that ideas being suggested are too sci-fi to work in our time. Thus they'll search onwards and in whatever direction they may be heading it will always bring them to socialism.

Logic is our ally comrades:
> people dislike capitalism ---- >
search for better alternatives ---- >
cannot accept anything "red" cause they've been indoctrinated to believe it is pure evil ---- >
search goes on ---- >
stumble upon something that hides any traces of "red" color ---- >
they love it.

[punisa]

Bullshit conspiracy theories. Worthless.

Is today the annual hard liner day?

[Kayser_Soso]

Is today the annual hard liner day?

Conspiracy theories neuter and render ineffective any movement to actually change society. In fact, one might suggest that if there is a conspiracy, it is the conspiracy to propagate conspiracy theories!

[Uppercut]

I thought Zeitgeist was very informative. It clearly explains how 9/11 was in inside job, as well as the origins of Christianity. They call is conspiracy theory, but when you have CIA whistleblowers saying that the world's intel agencies know 9/11 was a lie, it just pushes you further towards revolution!
It's hard to look at everything in the same light after you learn that you've been lied to your whole life.

[Political_Chucky]

It's basically a project funded by North Korean government, devoted to spread love, respect and utmost obedience for the great leader Kim :laugh:

On the serious side, Zeitgeist is an interesting video. It has 2 key elements that we must exploit:
1) It reached a massive audience, primarily the anti-capitalist ones
2) many from those who watched it will soon realize that ideas being suggested are too sci-fi to work in our time. Thus they'll search onwards and in whatever direction they may be heading it will always bring them to socialism.

Logic is our ally comrades:
> people dislike capitalism ---- >
search for better alternatives ---- >
cannot accept anything "red" cause they've been indoctrinated to believe it is pure evil ---- >
search goes on ---- >
stumble upon something that hides any traces of "red" color ---- >
they love it.
Before I go to bed and i'll check back tomorrow because I'm really interested in how people can mold these ideas into something better.

1)Yes great.
2)Why is it too scifi? What exactly is it that Jacque Fresco(The Venus project founder) says that isn't viable?

And also, why would you hide traces of "red" if it is the system that should be implemented? People shouldn't be tricked into something. They should be logically and educationally brought to an idea don't you think?

[Kayser_Soso]

I thought Zeitgeist was very informative. It clearly explains how 9/11 was in inside job, as well as the origins of Christianity. They call is conspiracy theory, but when you have CIA whistleblowers saying that the world's intel agencies know 9/11 was a lie, it just pushes you further towards revolution!
It's hard to look at everything in the same light after you learn that you've been lied to your whole life.

Actually there is no evidence that 9/11 was an inside job. Take a look at this site: 911myths.com , read to your heart's content. There were also no "CIA whistleblowers" saying that 9/11 was a lie. In fact when you work backwards and imagine how such a conspiracy would be planned, the very idea is simply ludicrous and quite laughable actually. This does not advance revolution, it advances paranoia, illogical thinking, and the same kind of flawed logic that is generally the trademark on the right. Marxism-Leninism is about materialist analysis, which means that the rules of evidence, logic, and critical thinking need to be applied to events.

Zeitgeist also makes a number of mistakes on the origins of Christianity.

http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Bullshit wacko crap.

Conspiracy theories are rooted in mysticism and illogical thinking. They cannot ever be revolutionary, infact they dilute our struggle. People who follow them generally realise there is something wrong with society because they can see it, and they cling on to believing in one of these conspiracy theories because they provide answers to their questions and give something for them to blame. Of course this diverts attention away from the real problem: Capitalism. I remember someone saying that the Bush administration would actually welcome the conspiracy theories about 9/11 because it means less questioning of real issues.

[ArrowLance]

While zeitgeist did play a role in my initial phase of discovery, it's utter trash. Conspiracies can pull people in and put them in a dark box where all they worry about is 2012 and the big bad Illuminati. I'm lucky I didn't get trapped.

[thejambo1]

why is this yet another thread on conspiracy bullshit that has fuck all to do with what should be on revleft. zeitgeist movement is full of wackos and arseholes.

[Dimentio]

The Zeitgeist movement is not so very small. In fact, it is composed of hundreds of thousands of people. That is impressive for a movement which haven't existed in one year.

Instead of whining, the radical left should discuss why the Zeitgeist movement gets so popular.

And Jacque Fresco's visions are indeed compelling.

[Kayser_Soso]

The Zeitgeist movement is not so very small. In fact, it is composed of hundreds of thousands of people. That is impressive for a movement which haven't existed in one year.

Instead of whining, the radical left should discuss why the Zeitgeist movement gets so popular.

And Jacque Fresco's visions are indeed compelling.

The religious right has far more than that, what is your point? They have so many people because they peddle conspiracy theories, and people who subscribe to such theories get a massive ego boost, believing they are part of some elite community that knows something everyone else doesn't seem to know- you know, the "sheep". Yes they are almost perpetually frustrated, because they never seem to find that smoking gun they are looking for, and the shadowy conspirators are never brought to justice. What is more, a dystopian future is always just around the corner.

Conspiracy theories are also popular because they explain the complicated events in the world in what is a far simpler way- where everything that happens is a direct result of human will, rather than influenced by chance, coincidence, and other conditions outside the realm of human desire.

This is exactly the opposite of what we need- which is rational people who understand critical thinking.

[Dimentio]

Zeitgeist Addendum did not actually stray too far away from basic marxism in its analysis on how capitalism is working.

[Kayser_Soso]

Zeitgeist Addendum did not actually stray too far away from basic marxism in its analysis on how capitalism is working.

I will look into that, but to be fair, there are many analysis of capitalism out there that do not stray far from Marxism.

[Mowgli]

I think it's one of the best movies I've ever seen and I think it's great that there are people from all kind of viewpoints criticising the current system. I believe, instead of shooting every different viewpoint, we should work together.

United we stand.

[Meridian]

The Zeitgeist movement is not so very small. In fact, it is composed of hundreds of thousands of people. That is impressive for a movement which haven't existed in one year.

Instead of whining, the radical left should discuss why the Zeitgeist movement gets so popular.

And Jacque Fresco's visions are indeed compelling.
I agree with this line of thought.

It reaches out to a very, very large crowd because of not only its messages (which in many cases are similar to those of the revolutionary left) but because it is an alternative for people who have not really heard many alternatives before in their life.

Well, that is my theory, anyway.

[Kayser_Soso]

http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/

You guys need to have a look at this. It "reaches" out to people the same way religion reaches out to people- by explaining the complicated in oversimplistic ways, good and evil scenarios, and unfalsifiable claims. You let these people into your movement, you are opening a Pandora's box full of whackjobs, losers, closet Nazis, and whatnot.

Also I just finished reading the guy's analysis of capitalism in the Addendum, and he is WAY off.

[Q]

I think Zeitgeist 2 was quite good actually, significant improvement over Zeitgeist 1 which was indeed utter conspiracy crap. But even part 2 totally fails to present any form of viable alternative besides the usual individualist "action" methods.

Z2 can be used as a propaganda tool, but only to immediately add a discussion on socialist solutions to the capitalist system.

[thejambo1]

if you think you are going to get loads of comrades out of the zeitgeist movement you are way out,these people have very little in common with me and my thoughts and ideals. it gets people thinking because its probably the first time they have ever thought "politically" in their lives. it has fuck all to do with class based politics in europe, but in the u.s?:(

[Kayser_Soso]

I think Zeitgeist 2 was quite good actually, significant improvement over Zeitgeist 1 which was indeed utter conspiracy crap. But even part 2 totally fails to present any form of viable alternative besides the usual individualist "action" methods.

Z2 can be used as a propaganda tool, but only to immediately add a discussion on socialist solutions to the capitalist system.

The problem is, they need to understand the nature of how capitalism works, and that film simply doesn't explain it correctly. It's just another type of Third Positionist ideology, where the problems with capitalism are blamed on some defective part, rather than the basic elements of the system.

[Kayser_Soso]

if you think you are going to get loads of comrades out of the zeitgeist movement you are way out,these people have very little in common with me and my thoughts and ideals. it gets people thinking because its probably the first time they have ever thought "politically" in their lives. it has fuck all to do with class based politics in europe, but in the u.s?:(

Hell yeah- one thing I learned about conspiracy theorists from years of (unfortuante)experience around them is that these people will often pretend to support or believe any ideology just so long as they can tell you about their beloved conspiracy theory, inform you how much better informed they are than the sheeple, and regale you with tales of their Youtube-based "research".

[bailey_187]

Theres this old woman that hands out loads of conspiracy leaflets at some demos.

Apparently she used to be a Communist (and maybe still is) but fell into conspiracy theories.

[Dimentio]

http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/

You guys need to have a look at this. It "reaches" out to people the same way religion reaches out to people- by explaining the complicated in oversimplistic ways, good and evil scenarios, and unfalsifiable claims. You let these people into your movement, you are opening a Pandora's box full of whackjobs, losers, closet Nazis, and whatnot.

Also I just finished reading the guy's analysis of capitalism in the Addendum, and he is WAY off.

What is wrong with pointing out the influence of the banking system?

[Kayser_Soso]

What is wrong with pointing out the influence of the banking system?

1. Is the banking system the problem? Or is capitalism the problem?

2. The film's understanding of the banking system is incorrect, and it sends the message that the problem is only central banks/fractional reserve banking.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

The Zeitgeist Movement, although originally right-wing, is anti-capitalist and therefore I have nothing against it. However, it provides no instruction on how to destroy capitalism and build something new in it's place, just some drawings of a technological resource-based society.

Basically, it's attracting people to a form of socialism by appealing to both left-wingers and right-wingers in a new way and for that it should be commended, but obviously it's useless after that.

Wacko conspiracy theories or not, it doesn't really matter. As the state and capital are the TRUE conspiracy theories which within all these other theories lay. People who debate whether 9/11 was an inside job or not are just wasting time debating irrelevant topics.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I thought Zeitgeist was very informative. It clearly explains how 9/11 was in inside job, as well as the origins of Christianity. They call is conspiracy theory, but when you have CIA whistleblowers saying that the world's intel agencies know 9/11 was a lie, it just pushes you further towards revolution!
It's hard to look at everything in the same light after you learn that you've been lied to your whole life.

Zeitgeist is piece of trash. It proves nothing.

[Dimentio]

1. Is the banking system the problem? Or is capitalism the problem?

2. The film's understanding of the banking system is incorrect, and it sends the message that the problem is only central banks/fractional reserve banking.

1. The banking system makes capitalism possible.

2. You haven't seen Addendum have you?

[thejambo1]

there is a satelitte channel in the u.k. call Controversial t.v. they have shown both zeitgeist films they also show the Alex Jones show and they also show conferences by David Icke, there is a reason for this,because one leads to the other:laugh: people who think zeitgeist is the truth also believe its Mexicos fault that the U.S. economy is fucked and they also believe the english royal family are descended from lizard people.!!! if you buy into all this pish you would be better of finding other forums rather than revleft as you really have very little in common with the majority on here, and certainly have no real idea whats going on in the real world.:(

[Kayser_Soso]

1. The banking system makes capitalism possible.

So do workers and trees. Should we struggle against that too?




2. You haven't seen Addendum have you?

I am referring specifically to the Addendum actually. Check out the link I provided earlier, which directly deals with this part of the film. Furthermore, he seems to be attacking the concept of a Central Bank, not banking in general, and is most likely in favor of a Gold standard. He is not against banking in general.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Addendum calls for the abolition of the monetary-based society. How is this not anti-banking/capitalism?

[Political_Chucky]

So do workers and trees. Should we struggle against that too?




I am referring specifically to the Addendum actually. Check out the link I provided earlier, which directly deals with this part of the film. Furthermore, he seems to be attacking the concept of a Central Bank, not banking in general, and is most likely in favor of a Gold standard. He is not against banking in general.
Watch the movie, then read the review.

I don't understand why people consider this movie bullshit and farce when Addendum is clearly trying to draw people away from capitalism, showing corruption, how presidents can clearly throw the country into shit for campaign sponsorships and the economic war. It might not advocate literally leftist ideologies, but if it gets people thinking with information that is true to today's society, then I don't see what is really wrong?

[ComradeRed22'91]

Zeitgeist is popular because it's good propaganda. it's an entertaining movie and was intended to be such.
if you watch the part where it has a clip from "The Network" you'll notice that the music in the background wasn't even on there in the original version.

[Dimentio]

So do workers and trees. Should we struggle against that too?




I am referring specifically to the Addendum actually. Check out the link I provided earlier, which directly deals with this part of the film. Furthermore, he seems to be attacking the concept of a Central Bank, not banking in general, and is most likely in favor of a Gold standard. He is not against banking in general.

Uh????

You have clearly not even seen Addendum. The entire second part of the film is about the installation of a communist society. The Venus Project is evidently utopian socialist in its outlook.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Watch the movie, then read the review.

I don't understand why people consider this movie bullshit and farce when Addendum is clearly trying to draw people away from capitalism, showing corruption, how presidents can clearly throw the country into shit for campaign sponsorships and the economic war. It might not advocate literally leftist ideologies, but if it gets people thinking with information that is true to today's society, then I don't see what is really wrong?

But the thing is conspiracy theories are not productive to the class struggle and to criticism of Capitalism. They DON'T criticise Capitalism. They deflect away from these issues purposefully.

[Kayser_Soso]

First of all, fuck the addendum. I am reading a guide that specifically addresses the addendum, and I don't think someone spent that much time writing about a film that doesn't exist. Besides all this, the producer is, based on his previous films, a conspiracy theorist, and he has made so many errors already, I am a bit skeptical about his ability to conduct the kind of critical analysis that is required to advance the cause of revolution and Communism.

I'm sure he has a lot of wonderful ideas, but there are tons of idealistic ideas out there that are not grounded in reality. There are still modern-day Fascists and fellow travelers who claim to want to abolish capitalism.

[which doctor]

I don't think it's productive to write off the Zeitgeist phenomenon as useless, because what it shows is that there's a significant portion of people who are receptive to new ideas and sense that something is wrong with the traditional narrative we've been fed our entire lives. Unfortunately though, it is conspiracy theory garbage and it is detrimental to proletarian class consciousness, hence it being a bourgeois ideology. It's function in society is to further obscure the totality of society, and it delays the development of a real proletarian class consciousness, so it is something that needs to be combated, but I think there are lessons for us to learn from the Zeitgeist movement, in particular how it's managed to grab the attention of so many people.

[Kayser_Soso]

I don't think it's productive to write off the Zeitgeist phenomenon as useless, because what it shows is that there's a significant portion of people who are receptive to new ideas and sense that something is wrong with the traditional narrative we've been fed our entire lives. Unfortunately though, it is conspiracy theory garbage and it is detrimental to proletarian class consciousness, hence it being a bourgeois ideology.

Yeah you could say the same about the Nazis, Hare Krishnas, Third Positionists, Scientologists, Truthers, Christian fundamentalists, etc. Why should serious socialists care? If anything we need to be fighting the kind of poor logic that makes crap like this popular.




It's function in society is to further obscure the totality of society, and it delays the development of a real proletarian class consciousness, so it is something that needs to be combated, but I think there are lessons for us to learn from the Zeitgeist movement, in particular how it's managed to grab the attention of so many people.

Again, crack has grabbed the attention of far more people, and for the same reason- it makes people feel good.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

First of all, fuck the addendum. I am reading a guide that specifically addresses the addendum, and I don't think someone spent that much time writing about a film that doesn't exist. Besides all this, the producer is, based on his previous films, a conspiracy theorist, and he has made so many errors already, I am a bit skeptical about his ability to conduct the kind of critical analysis that is required to advance the cause of revolution and Communism.

I'm sure he has a lot of wonderful ideas, but there are tons of idealistic ideas out there that are not grounded in reality. There are still modern-day Fascists and fellow travelers who claim to want to abolish capitalism.

Obviously it's not realistic. I don't think anyone here is arguing that it is. But utopian socialism is still socialism and it's drawing people to the left. How is that not a positive? All we can hope is that eventually people start reading theory on how to actually achieve these ideal societies instead of just riding around the country on a bus going "yay venus project!"

Addendum is not full of conspiracy theories like the first one is. It's a much better film.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Yeah you could say the same about the Nazis, Hare Krishnas, Third Positionists, Scientologists, Truthers, Christian fundamentalists, etc.

A lot of people would say the same about communists. And you're basically agreeing with them by throwing utopian socialism (what communism is) in there.

If you don't see the psychological connection to people wishing for a new "ideal" society and the revolutionary leftist movement, I don't know what else I can say to change your mind.

[thejambo1]

zeitgeist movement is about as far away from class based left based politics as possible. it does not attract anybody here in u.k. to leftist policies it attracts all the fash who dont consider themselves fash and the conspiracy nut jobs. we have these threads every so often on revleft and i dont understand why. i cant say often enough it has no place in class based politics and if you think it does you really should re-think your politics.

[Kayser_Soso]

Obviously it's not realistic. I don't think anyone here is arguing that it is. But utopian socialism is still socialism and it's drawing people to the left. How is that not a positive? All we can hope is that eventually people start reading theory on how to actually achieve these ideal societies instead of just riding around the country on a bus going "yay venus project!"

Addendum is not full of conspiracy theories like the first one is. It's a much better film.

First of all, I'm more interested in victory than drawing people to the left. Besides, as theJambo points out, this kind of thing often attracts all kinds of politically unreliable people, many of whom are very suggestible and will basically latch on to anyone's politics just to have another person to discuss their "research" with. And don't think you can get them into your movement, and then explain away their conspiracy theory. People will react with great hostility when you attempt to shatter their illusion of esoteric knowledge.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

First of all, I'm more interested in victory than drawing people to the left.

These are related too if you think about it.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

zeitgeist movement is about as far away from class based left based politics as possible. it does not attract anybody here in u.k. to leftist policies it attracts all the fash who dont consider themselves fash and the conspiracy nut jobs. we have these threads every so often on revleft and i dont understand why. i cant say often enough it has no place in class based politics and if you think it does you really should re-think your politics.

ok, I rethink my politics all the time. how is sympathizing with workers who obviously long for a better life and a more ideal society going to change anything. How the fuck else do you think people become revolutionary leftists? We're all here because we LOVE modern society, right?

I know people in the zeitgeist movement and they're mostly just pothead hippies that think they're a part of something new and original when it reality it is just socialist theory. Stop being so defensive about something so insignificant that will probably be more of a benefit in the long run than it is detrimental to the cause.

[thejambo1]

right, so we should be ignoring the crap that surrounds the zeitgeist movement. its full of soundbites,conspiracy shite all rolled up together. and as for being a benefit in the long run......:rolleyes:

[Kayser_Soso]

These are related too if you think about it.

But this isn't drawing anybody to the left, if anything, it draws people into conspiratorial thinking, which makes them easy prey for the right. Plus, from what I have seen this "movement" is almost a cult. You can't attract people with lies and bad logic, and then expect them to mend their ways and start thinking critically again. Even if it were possible it's terribly manipulative. Conspiracy theories of this sort, including those about the Federal Reserve, have roots going back to the beginning of the last century. How many revolutions have been sparked off from such rhetoric to date?

When you play with populism, you are opening the door to the right.

[Dimentio]

zeitgeist movement is about as far away from class based left based politics as possible. it does not attract anybody here in u.k. to leftist policies it attracts all the fash who dont consider themselves fash and the conspiracy nut jobs. we have these threads every so often on revleft and i dont understand why. i cant say often enough it has no place in class based politics and if you think it does you really should re-think your politics.

You mean like the Venus Project Design Team (http://www.thevenusprojectdesign.com/)?

[thejambo1]

there are plenty of nut jobs here in the u.k. we dont need more american nutters to add to them. zeitgeist=shite. in all honesty we shouldnt really discuss it on here it should be on some patriot site in montana.

[Kayser_Soso]

there are plenty of nut jobs here in the u.k. we dont need more american nutters to add to them. zeitgeist=shite. in all honesty we shouldnt really discuss it on here it should be on some patriot site in montana.

Zeitshite, I like the sound of that. Or closer to the original German, Zeitsheisse I think.

Don't mean to sound paranoid, but I've been interested in conspiracy theorists as a hobby of mine for quite some time, and I wouldn't put it past such people to try to spread their word via other forums, pretending to fit in with the locals. Conspiracy theorists of all stripes tend to see their theory as more important than political differences, and like I said they will ally with anyone who listens to them about their beloved theories. I remember reading posts from Truthers or Paultards(Ron Paul supporters) in their own forums, where they discuss "going incognito" as various political ideologies and trying to preach the gospel to people who would normally never give a shit about Ron Paul or 9-11 conspiracies.

I'm not accusing anyone here of course, but if leftists are foolish enough to get involved with these people, the lines will blur and the tin-foil hat wearing crowd will invade.

[Revy]

Here are the aims and goals of The Venus Project:



1. Realizing the declaration of the world's resources as being the common heritage of all people.
2. Transcending the artificial boundaries that currently and arbitrarily separate people.
3. Replacing money-based nationalistic economies with a resource-based world economy.
4. Assisting in stabilizing the world’s population through education and voluntary birth control.
5. Reclaiming and restoring the natural environment to the best of our ability.
6. Redesigning cities, transportation systems, agricultural industries, and industrial plants so that they are energy efficient, clean, and able to conveniently serve the needs of all people.
7. Gradually outgrowing corporate entities and governments, (local, national, or supra- national) as means of social management.
8. Sharing and applying new technologies for the benefit of all nations.
9. Developing and using clean renewable energy sources.
10. Manufacturing the highest quality products for the benefit of the world’s people.
11. Requiring environmental impact studies prior to construction of any mega projects.
12. Encouraging the widest range of creativity and incentive toward constructive endeavour.
13. Outgrowing nationalism, bigotry, and prejudice through education.
14. Eliminating elitism, technical or otherwise.
15. Arriving at methodologies by careful research rather than random opinions.
16. Enhancing communication in schools so that our language is relevant to the physical conditions of the world.
17. Providing not only the necessities of life, but also offering challenges that stimulate the mind while emphasizing individuality rather than uniformity.
18. Finally, preparing people intellectually and emotionally for the changes and challenges that lie ahead.I don't see what's so disagreeable about this.....


there are plenty of nut jobs here in the u.k. we dont need more american nutters to add to them. zeitgeist=shite. in all honesty we shouldnt really discuss it on here it should be on some patriot site in montana.how can a website be located in Montana? :laugh: The Venus Project says one of its aims to abolish borders and nationalism, how in the world that would appeal to our nationalists here?

[Kayser_Soso]

These are all wonderful ideas- but how to achieve any of them, that is the problem. And if they associate themselves with this cult-like Zeitshite movement, then the are only inviting ruin upon themselves, because they will be filling their ranks with people who cannot reason.

[thejambo1]

wasting your time here kayser as am i:( no point in arguing with the believers!!

[NewSocialist]

Shitegeist is a Utopian fantasy movie. They show all these futuristic drawings of technology "being suppressed" that doesn't even exist in reality. It's a cult meant to attract conspiracy idiots who believe whatever they hear.

Socialism is about overthrowing capitalism to end exploitation, so the workers can finally be liberated and be in charge of their own lives and own the fruits of their labor, not so mythological robots can wait on us hand and foot, while we sit around eating and playing video games. What kind of a future is that? Why should we just let technology take away from our creativity?

[Revy]

Shitegeist is a Utopian fantasy movie. They show all these futuristic drawings of technology "being suppressed" that doesn't even exist in reality. It's a cult meant to attract conspiracy idiots who believe whatever they hear.

Socialism is about overthrowing capitalism to end exploitation, so the workers can finally be liberated and be in charge of their own lives and own the fruits of their labor, not so mythological robots can wait on us hand and foot, while we sit around eating and playing video games. What kind of a future is that? Why should we just let technology take away from our creativity?

why do you assume that the technological abolition of labor "takes away from creativity"? Primitivist nonsense.

[NewSocialist]

why do you assume that the technological abolition of labor "takes away from creativity"? Primitivist nonsense.

:rolleyes:

Because where do you draw the line? If you're going to have machines producing commodities, why stop there? Why not have computers start composing music? Soon you'll have computers inventing things. Physicists like Dr. Michio Kaku have severe reservations about the prospect of artificial intelligence and what it could mean for humanity.

PW8rgKLPHMg

Also, people are creative in different ways. Some people can't compose music, paint beautiful works of art or write literature. Some people are good at repairing a car, for example.

Before you start praising every technological innovation, you should consider its implications.

[Kayser_Soso]

Shitegeist is a Utopian fantasy movie. They show all these futuristic drawings of technology "being suppressed" that doesn't even exist in reality. It's a cult meant to attract conspiracy idiots who believe whatever they hear.

Socialism is about overthrowing capitalism to end exploitation, so the workers can finally be liberated and be in charge of their own lives and own the fruits of their labor, not so mythological robots can wait on us hand and foot, while we sit around eating and playing video games. What kind of a future is that? Why should we just let technology take away from our creativity?

Hypothetically, capitalism is holding back technological progress, because the best way to profit is off of human labor, so many times automated systems are not adopted on purpose. Obviously automation would free up a lot of time for the proletariat and make for a very desirable Communist future. The thing is though, I wouldn't trust the jackasses that believe dorkumentaries like Tritetripe to bring about such a society and revolution. People that believe this nonsense are convinced that some day the system is just going to collapse. They are in for a rude surprise.

[NewSocialist]

Hypothetically, capitalism is holding back technological progress, because the best way to profit is off of human labor, so many times automated systems are not adopted on purpose.

That I have no doubt about and ideally speaking, yes, work should be drastically reduced.

Having said that, we live on a planet with finite resources and its overpopulated. Humanity is going to have to drastically cut down its rate of reproduction in order for us to live in a peaceful world where resources can be spread around generously.

The problem with Shitegeist is it says "the technology already exists to bring about our utopia, look at our drawings! See?!?!" and it claims that the planets resources are indefinite and that's bullshit.

A lot of people also forget the the origins of futurism were on the fascist far-right (see Filippo Tommaso Marinetti). This makes me think it could just be a bourgeois attempt to prevent class struggle and divert our attention to far-off Utopian dreams.


The thing is though, I wouldn't trust the jackasses that believe dorkumentaries like Tritetripe to bring about such a society and revolution. People that believe this nonsense are convinced that some day the system is just going to collapse. They are in for a rude surprise.I agree and most of them, as you said, are easily coopted by the reactionary right Alex Jones freaks.

[Revy]

:rolleyes:

Because where do you draw the line? If you're going to have machines producing commodities, why stop there? Why not have computers start composing music? Soon you'll have computers inventing things. Physicists like Dr. Michio Kaku have severe reservations about the prospect of artificial intelligence and what it could mean for humanity.

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Also, people are creative in different ways. Some people can't compose music, paint beautiful works of art or write literature. Some people are good at repairing a car, for example.

Before you start praising every technological innovation, you should consider its implications.

No, you oppose the automation of labor. That has nothing to do with artistic pursuits. Labor actually takes away from that.

All I propose is the use of robots for labor. This does not make everyone lazy. Nobody will be forced to not work, if you want to work alongside the robots, go right ahead.:lol:

I don't believe in developing artificial intelligence to extreme degrees where they are basically mechanical people. That serves no purpose. I could see it being done experimentally but such machines would be rare and not mass produced. In that event, they should be treated equally if they are as advanced mentally as a human.

Technology is not something that acts on its own. Human society has the choice of what to do with it. People are already educated about the consequences of artificial intelligence gone mad. They'll appreciate automated labor, but they won't want mechanical people.

[Kayser_Soso]

I don't think he is opposed to the automation of labor. His post just seems critical of the technocratic, pie in the sky vision of a future Communist society. I agree that automation is a wonderful thing and it will be great to remove the profit motive obstacle to technological development. On the other hand, I believe we must focus on getting to a point when we can realistically think of such things.

And like I said, people who believe in that cult-like Shitegeist don't exactly possess the reasoning capability to get us to such a destination.

[Dimentio]

I don't think he is opposed to the automation of labor. His post just seems critical of the technocratic, pie in the sky vision of a future Communist society. I agree that automation is a wonderful thing and it will be great to remove the profit motive obstacle to technological development. On the other hand, I believe we must focus on getting to a point when we can realistically think of such things.

And like I said, people who believe in that cult-like Shitegeist don't exactly possess the reasoning capability to get us to such a destination.

I am in agreement that the installation of a future post-capitalist society built on egalitarian society will be a tremendous challenge and very hard. But yet, I think it is necessary to ponder what we should have in the future, its strengths and weaknesses.

And even if Zeitgeist was all shit, I wonder if it isn't worthy to study why the Zeitgeist Movement has gained such a large following?

[NewSocialist]

No, you oppose the automation of labor. That has nothing to do with artistic pursuits. Labor actually takes away from that.

All I propose is the use of robots for labor. This does not make everyone lazy. Nobody will be forced to not work, if you want to work alongside the robots, go right ahead.:lol:

I don't believe in developing artificial intelligence to extreme degrees where they are basically mechanical people. That serves no purpose. I could see it being done experimentally but such machines would be rare and not mass produced. In that event, they should be treated equally if they are as advanced mentally as a human.

Technology is not something that acts on its own. Human society has the choice of what to do with it. People are already educated about the consequences of artificial intelligence gone mad. They'll appreciate automated labor, but they won't want mechanical people.


I understand exactly where you're coming from, the problem is, who is to determine how far is too far? Theoretically, what is to stop a group of engineers from getting together and perfecting artificial intelligence and having their little army of machines producing it in mass?

It's easy to say "I want technology to displace human labor", it's much more difficult to determine how such a society would be organized; how the transition would work, how overpopulation would be dealt with, how to regulate technology so as to ensure it doesn't go "too far" (determining what "too far" even is) and so on. Not to mention how useless this type of daydreaming is right now. Until we're living in a post-capitalist would, such speculation is worthless, that's why films like Shitegeist are counterproductive.

[Dimentio]

I understand exactly where you're coming from, the problem is, who is to determine how far is too far? What is to stop a group of engineers from getting together and perfecting artificial intelligence and having their little army of machines producing it in mass?

It's easy to say "I want technology to displace human labor", it's much more difficult to determine how such a society would be organized; how the transition would work, how overpopulation would be dealt with, how to regulate technology so as to ensure it doesn't go "too far" and so on. Not to mention how useless this type of daydreaming is right now. Until we're living in a post-capitalist would, such speculation is worthless, that's why films like Shitegeist are counterproductive.

I agree that we should work on discussing how to establish such an economy. That is exactly what NET has been doing for five years. Do you want to help?

[NewSocialist]

I agree that we should work on discussing how to establish such an economy. That is exactly what NET has been doing for five years. Do you want to help?

I would certainly enjoy the conversation, but right now I'm just starting to learn the very basics of Marxist economics, so I don't really think I'm in a good position to be of much help yet, unfortunately.

[Kayser_Soso]

I think Paul Cockshot and Alin Cotrell's book Toward the New Socialism is far more productive toward the goal of creating a working socialist and communist society.

[Dimentio]

I think Paul Cockshot and Alin Cotrell's book Toward the New Socialism is far more productive toward the goal of creating a working socialist and communist society.

I agree its an interesting read. But I still believe Energy Accounting would be far better in utilising the productive capacity for all human beings.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Question:

In the way they described the Federal Reserve and the monetary system, were they correct on how it is a tool to control and is basically ridiculous?

I haven't seen it, but I was given a lecture on it by someone who has. I know from here they don't propose any perspective or solution that is fitting with my communist beliefs, but waht say you guys? Were they right on that specific point?

[Kayser_Soso]

Question:

In the way they described the Federal Reserve and the monetary system, were they correct on how it is a tool to control and is basically ridiculous?

He incorrectly implies that the system is based on debt, or that money is created from debt, something to this effect. He seems to think that the problem is Central Banks and the Fractional reserve system, a common bogeyman for conspiracy theorists. Obviously the monetary system is part of the problem, but it isn't as central as he thinks, and money has been around for a long time.

[Technocrat]

The Zeitgeist movement took some of the concepts of Technocracy, mixed in some new age spiritual mumbo jumbo and some new world order conspiracy crap. I think if anything they are doing more harm than good to the concept of scientific government.


He incorrectly implies that the system is based on debt, or that money is created from debt, something to this effect. He seems to think that the problem is Central Banks and the Fractional reserve system, a common bogeyman for conspiracy theorists. Obviously the monetary system is part of the problem, but it isn't as central as he thinks, and money has been around for a long time.Actually, money is debt. If I have 10 dollars this means that society owes me a debt of 10 dollars. Money is a form of generalized debt claim against society.


It's easy to say "I want technology to displace human labor", it's much more difficult to determine how such a society would be organized; how the transition would work, how overpopulation would be dealt with, how to regulate technology so as to ensure it doesn't go "too far" (determining what "too far" even is) and so on. Not to mention how useless this type of daydreaming is right now. Until we're living in a post-capitalist would, such speculation is worthless, that's why films like Shitegeist are counterproductive.

I think you'll find that Technocracy has answered the above questions pretty thoroughly.

[Die Rote Fahne]

He incorrectly implies that the system is based on debt, or that money is created from debt, something to this effect. He seems to think that the problem is Central Banks and the Fractional reserve system, a common bogeyman for conspiracy theorists. Obviously the monetary system is part of the problem, but it isn't as central as he thinks, and money has been around for a long time.

Money ahs been around a while, but it no longer represents gold, it is essentially just paper that is given a value.

[Kayser_Soso]

Money ahs been around a while, but it no longer represents gold, it is essentially just paper that is given a value.

For one thing it's good that it is no longer back by gold. There is not enough gold in the world right now to cover all the money in use, gold is expensive and environmentally destructive to mine(not to mention inefficient), and a gold based economy would lead to wars similar to those which revolve around control of oil resources. In a way, gold also has an arbitrary value attributed to it. The main inherent value of gold is that it does not corrode, so it can be stored indefinitely.