Does Marx's Theory of History End With Communism?

[Axle]

I was talking to my friend about some theory over the weekend, specifically about Marx's Theory of History. My friend is not a Communist, but he does understand and support that theory, seeing Socialism as the next logical step for humanity.

As we were talking, he raised the question of whether or not humanity will progress from Communism into an even higher stage...namely a higher, more advanced type of Slave or Feudal society.

So what do you think?

Will the advanced economic conditions of Communism, a land of abundance and the lack of an oppressing class to eventually throw off, make it impossible for another stage to emerge?

Will human economic history prove to be somewhat cyclical?

Or, will Communism allow humanity to progress to something entirely different that we can't even fully realize yet?

[Random Precision]

Or, will Communism allow humanity to progress to something entirely different that we can't even fully realize yet?

This one. Marx didn't say that Communism would be "the end of history", as people determined to paint his theory of history in a teleological manner insist on. What he did say was that with the establishment of Communism, the class struggle would cease to be the motor of human history. What will drive history after that I don't think we can imagine, nor do I think we should waste much time trying to imagine it

Both Slavery and Feudal modes of production are rooted in societies with a lack of material abundance. Communism is the mode of production which allows material abundance to be appropriated for the benefit of everyone. It's sort of a contradiction in terms to imagine a "more advanced" version of slavery or feudalism, as much as it doesn't really make any sense

[Tatarin]

What will drive history after that I don't think we can imagine, nor do I think we should waste much time trying to imagine it

I think you already said it. Imagination will drive human society. The drive to know everything.

[Patchd]

Can you really tell? Surely humans will have to wait till we see what the material conditions are like under Communism, perhaps a development in technology will produce a social structure that we have never seen before.

[MockDoctor]

Even though Marx's and Lenin's theory about Communism and Socialism in general doesn't continue with a further theory about what happens after Communism has been achieved, a quite different Socialist writer, Oscar Wilde, wrote an essay about the mind and soul of a man under Socialism. Wilde stated that once Communist society has reached a high level of technology, enabling robots and modern machinery to take over the proletariat's "dirty work" ( or work that nobody wants to do, such as cleaning the streets, collecting garbage, etc.), a new form of society will take the place of Communism. It's in no sense a feudal society, but quite on the contrary:
Individualism; when every person is educated for a job of his personal desire and has the opportunity to fulfill this desire by getting his (or her, of course) career of choice.
Machinery will replace the jobs that either humans don't want to do (street cleaning, perhaps even mining, &c.), can't do (perfect mass production in little time, e.g. 10 000 good & hearty meals for workers in less than an hour), or better not do (jobs where a robot does a better work than a human and jobs where human lives/health would be endangered). Basically as Tatarin said, knowledge, creativity and innocent, modest desire will drive human society ever onward. Also, as Patchd said, developments and inventions in technology will allow human creativity and imagination to run wild.
Right now, it's hard for us to imagine such a society possible, but if you think everything logically over, it makes sense.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think you already said it. Imagination will drive human society. The drive to know everything.As long as we don't all have to wear those Star Trek uniforms while we are out discovering knowledge for the sake of knowledge and going bodly through the universe, I'm all for it.

[RedRise]

Imagination will drive human society. The drive to know everything.

This has always been the driving force of human society, class system or no class system. That is human nature.

[the last donut of the night]

This has always been the driving force of human society, class system or no class system. That is human nature.

Maybe so, but class society has stood in the way of this drive.

[ckaihatsu]

I think you already said it. Imagination will drive human society. The drive to know everything.


Besides striving to *know* everything (that's non-trivial) we would also want to be able to *do* everything that's worth doing. Certain projects are currently well beyond our reach due to the divisions that wrack human society -- the colonization of space is an obvious one.

Also, I think we could finally fulfill our existential-given destiny to be the collective managers of the surface of the earth. By this I mean that we could [1.] stop *fucking up* the natural environment with needless toxins, pollution, etc., and [2.] actually give nature a boost in places by sculpting out certain environmental terrains for the better. This could be about hydrating deserts, spurring plant growth, and so on.

Moreover we might even entertain the idea of *rescuing* *all* animal life from life in the wild -- there's nothing to say that the struggle for survival in the wilderness is *exactly how* animals *should* live -- perhaps we might find ways to ensure food supplies *everywhere*, eliminating the need for *all* predation and life-extinction for the sake of nutrition.

In its place we might develop ways in which to network *all* sentient life to the Internet (and, ultimately, to RevLeft -- mmmbwahahahahahaha...!), giving them their entire lives in leisure (and/or social productivity of some sort).

Now what was that thing about imagination...? = )


Chris



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[ckaihatsu]

Actually, *scratch* that -- it'll be one big global sex orgy on the ground, outdoors, for the rest of time...!


x D

[Dave B]

This kind of stuff has been raised before on libcom etc and I think the following quote has stimulated debate and is now known it seems as the "realm of freedom" quotation.


For some you have to think about it a bit apparently.


Capital Vol. III, Part VII. Revenues and their Sources, Chapter 48. The Trinity Formula




In fact, the realm of freedom actually begins only where labour which is determined by necessity and mundane considerations ceases; thus in the very nature of things it lies beyond the sphere of actual material production. Just as the savage must wrestle with Nature to satisfy his wants, to maintain and reproduce life, so must civilised man, and he must do so in all social formations and under all possible modes of production. With his development this realm of physical necessity expands as a result of his wants; but, at the same time, the forces of production which satisfy these wants also increase.


Freedom in this field can only consist in socialised man, the associated producers, rationally regulating their interchange with Nature, bringing it under their common control, instead of being ruled by it as by the blind forces of Nature; and achieving this with the least expenditure of energy and under conditions most favourable to, and worthy of, their human nature. But it nonetheless still remains a realm of necessity. Beyond it begins that development of human energy which is an end in itself, the true realm of freedom, which, however, can blossom forth only with this realm of necessity as its basis. The shortening of the working-day is its basic prerequisite.




http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch48.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch48.htm)

[Canadian Red]

I believe humans have a constant drive for improvement. We will always be getting better, inventing new things, slowly evolving physically, mentally and socially. Of course Communism won't be the end of history... but it will put us on the highway to improvement.

[Muzk]

I believe humans have a constant drive for improvement. We will always be getting better, inventing new things, slowly evolving physically, mentally and socially. Of course Communism won't be the end of history... but it will put us on the highway to improvement.


Yes it is the end. No, there's nothing better than communism, nor will people create new classes unless there's a fascist revolution (which I doubt would be possible with high class counsciousness and collectivized education)

Inventions and evolving physically (lol, teenage mutant ninja turtles?) have nothing to do with the social relations of capital, labour etc.

It can only be the end of social history. People have abolished classes, private property, which is the end of the eternal class struggle that had begun in 322 BC.

Hell yeah.

Note that history = social history of mankind

But if you want to be such idealists... let's wait and see.