Dragon Age sucks [Archive]

khad

17th November 2009, 03:03

One of the most reactionary games I've played in years. No understatement here. Not only is it a complete spawn of the Bioware formula (four major plot quests, stupid unsatisfying conclusion), but this game completely fetishizes the right of hereditary nobility. Siding with the nobles/royalty is considered a good deed, and even those who are unqualified to rule will become sagacious and just rulers (a hint at the end). The Armies for Gondor trope is also so overused that it should be considered dead on arrival.

Furthermore, I am sick and fed up with this "special forces fantasy" whereby the main character is arbitrarily inducted into a secret elite order with wide-ranging jurisdictional capacities. This is just the wish fulfillment fantasy of lazy idiots who think they will be elevated to a status to lord over the proles because they so resent the fact that they are powerless.

Speaking of wish fulfillment, according to the Bioware boards, people are getting depressed via obsession with the character Morrigan, who does nothing but emotionally and psychologically abuse the main character for the duration of the game. Some have claimed to have had dreams about this character, and others have stated that they would pay for an expansion in which the player can track Morrigan down after she abandons him at the end of the game.

http://daforums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=703863&forum=145&sp=0

There you have it, Bioware. Not only can't you write a plot worth wiping my ass with, but you openly appeal to the basest and most degenerate impulses of the gaming population.

mykittyhasaboner

17th November 2009, 03:09

There you have it, Bioware. Not only can't you write a plot worth wiping my ass with, but you openly appeal to the basest and most degenerate impulses of the gaming population.
To be fair, Bioware did an excellent job with KOTOR.

But as far as Dragon Age goes, well I've never played and now I don't really intend to.

khad

17th November 2009, 03:13

Everything since the original Baldur's Gate has shown Bioware to be a bunch of derivative hacks. But this new Dragon Age is by far the most derivative and worthless and reactionary to date.

mykittyhasaboner

17th November 2009, 03:15

I'm guessing you've never played KOTOR then.

khad

17th November 2009, 03:19

I'm guessing you've never played KOTOR then.
I have. It was mediocre. But then again I consider the entire premise of Star Wars elitist and reactionary.

RHIZOMES

17th November 2009, 04:19

Better than Star Trek, which is a liberal humanist, militaristic, space-imperialist, petty-bourgeois utopia. At least with Star Wars there's a whole rebelling against an evil empire element to it.

mykittyhasaboner

17th November 2009, 04:23

Star wars fuckin owns. and KOTOR is probably the best RPG i've ever played. but we all have our opinions. :)

Plagueround

17th November 2009, 04:26

At least with Star Wars there's a whole rebelling against an evil empire element to it.

I don't get how anyone could hate Star Wars. Perhaps it's just been such a huge part of my life for so long so it gets a pass...

khad

17th November 2009, 04:51

RHIZOMES

17th November 2009, 04:54

Yeah at least Star Trek is secular. The reactionary tendencies may be related to how Star Wars is rooted quite firmly in the European hero narrative though.

GayEpilepticFightingRobot

17th November 2009, 05:00

You starwars/trek geeks are strange beings indeed.

Stargate is where it's at.

Plagueround

17th November 2009, 05:01

You mean the blood rule where they submit themselves to democratic governance and serve as guardians and not leaders, reluctantly overstep their mandate when they suspect the entire government may be subverted by a man who literally channels pure evil as power, and are utterly crushed for recognizing too late that their ivory tower attitude was a Grievous* failure to adapt? :tt2:

*haha!

Yeah at least Star Trek is secular. The reactionary tendencies may be related to how Star Wars is rooted quite firmly in the European hero narrative though.

Don't forget Lucas was drawing heavily on Joseph Campbell's theories on the roots of human mythology. That and old WW2 dogfight movies.

khad

17th November 2009, 05:11

You mean the blood rule where they submit themselves to democratic governance
You show me how democratic governance by aristocrats actually works in real life.

Glenn Beck

17th November 2009, 05:46

Dragon Age: Origins

http://www.norfolkandwestern-ry.com/images/switch1.jpg

khad

17th November 2009, 05:54

Looks like Bioware has its head so far up its own ass that it can't even take good natured ribbing from its fans. Note that the dumbass acknowledged the fact that his game plots are the literary equivalent of cheap romance novels.

http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Hellforge/Bioware-RPG-Cliche-Chart

So I'm supposed to believe someone is smart enough to do a big Excel spreadsheet with color coding and stuff but not smart enough to know about Campbellian archetypes?

Yeah, guys, every BioWare game has the same plot! See, things are kind of normal, and then things change and you have to go out and do stuff, and you go to crazy weird places! Aaaaaand so yeah, totally the same story.

That's asinine.

The core idea isn't that bad -- I sense that someone started out with a good concept, like "Hey, you go to four places a lot," and then they just decided to add some more filler rows to try to make a real zinger, except that when you actually read the cells, a lot of them are stretches.

In any event, the "intro, four planets, finale" structure is something we have used often for a few simple reasons:

1) It's easy. It's not as easy as making the player do everything in order, but you can generally just treat each area separately except for a few variables, which makes logic-testing and QA work a ton easier. What happens on Feros stays on Feros. BioWare knows how to make these games, make them solid and workable, and ship them -- and if need be, we can always cut areas, which sucks, but we can do it if need be. Some structures don't allow for that, which is why you end up with games where it's clear that the devs ran out of time or money at some point.

2) Players can understand it. In usability tests on one project, we learned that players with more than four things to do at a time in any given area will feel frustrated -- they get overwhelmed and have no idea what to do first and get the names mixed up. So you don't dump twenty small planets on the player all at once. You hit them with a few big things that they can understand: "Go to Feros." And then once they're there, they unlock several different things to do that don't compete with the rest of the universe, because right now you're on Feros. "Kill Varren." "Get Power Cells." "Turn on Water Valves." "Go to ExoGeni." (And we even cheat a bit by giving you missions, which are big and obvious, and assignments, which we tell you are less important.)

In testing out our missions for ME2, the single biggest lump of story feedback we've gotten has boiled down to Information Flow. When a mission feels clunky, nine times out of ten it's because we either told the player way too much all at once and expected the player to keep it all straight, or we didn't actually tell the player enough and so the player is kind of lost. Dividing up our game into four or five large worlds allows us to control information a bit better.

(And to be clear, that four-worlds-and-out thing is a simplification that ignores major critpath events and makes it sound like you only visit four big areas in KotOR, which flat-out isn't true.)

3) There's nothing wrong with it. It's a structure, like any other. Humorously snarking that our games have a beginning part that is streamlined and introduces you to the game, a middle that allows you the freedom to go to several places and have adventures, and then a tightly focused ending is like riffing on how romance novels generally start out with two people being attracted to each other but having emotional issues, then gradually building trust, then having a complication that splits them up, and then in the end they get together and are happy. People who create fiction in any form use a structure appropriate to that form. They do it because their audience understands and responds on an emotional level to that structure.

Dimentio

17th November 2009, 11:36

Jazzratt

17th November 2009, 11:51

Its fantasy dude. Its often reactionary and looking back. I agree it is reactionary to glorify such an era, but I do not think they are doing it in any kind of awareness.

*prefer gory, realistic "dark fantasy" myself*

It's probably quite reactionary of me but I've a fair interest in romantic fantasy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_fantasy) especially the RPG Blue Rose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Rose_%28role-playing_game%29).

Also I'd rather live in the Star Wars universe than the grim darkness of the far future. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000)

Honggweilo

17th November 2009, 13:59

Better than Star Trek, which is a liberal humanist, militaristic, space-imperialist, petty-bourgeois utopia. At least with Star Wars there's a whole rebelling against an evil empire element to it.
DONT TALK SHIT ABOUT STAR TREK!

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/New_World_Economy
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Union

Maps of the Earth including the USSR were present on the library computer (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Enterprise_%28NCC-1701%29_library_computer) of the USS Enterprise (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Enterprise_%28NCC-1701%29) in 2254 (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/2254). (TOS (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series): "The Cage (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Cage_%28episode%29)")
By the 2360s (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/2360s), the USSR re-formed in some capacity. On stardate (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Stardate) 40291.7 (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/2363), the SS Tsiolkovsky (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/SS_Tsiolkovsky) was launched from the Baikonur Cosmodrome (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Baikonur_Cosmodrome) in the USSR. (TNG (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation): "The Naked Now (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Naked_Now_%28episode%29)")and didnt Rodenberry recieve the "order of lenin" or some other scientific distinction from the USSR? And how is the Federation an imperialist entity? its a horizontal federation of voluntary membership! Fact is Star Trek is way more progressive then the starwars franchize will ever be, and it has way more serious progressive socio-economic content (i.e the importance of labour unions, anti-capitalist criticism, anti-fascist and anti-imperialist defence against klingon/cardassians) on instead of sanctifying bourgeois democracy as a true anti-fascist entity in the form of the "weimar" galactic republic.

I rest my case

SCI-FI WARZZ!! BRING IT *****EZ!

Dimentio

17th November 2009, 14:02

It's probably quite reactionary of me but I've a fair interest in romantic fantasy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_fantasy) especially the RPG Blue Rose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Rose_%28role-playing_game%29).

Also I'd rather live in the Star Wars universe than the grim darkness of the far future. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000)

Fantasy is mostly about perceptions of the past and not the future, akin to the romanticist era of the 19th century.

Honggweilo

17th November 2009, 14:14

I'd take a meritocracy over some blood rule by jackassholes with midichlorians any day.
rep if i could

Jazzratt

17th November 2009, 14:35

Honggweilo

17th November 2009, 14:37

Star Trek < The Culture.
dont go into specifics, these are star wars, you either take sides or get out of the kitchen

Lord Testicles

17th November 2009, 14:46

Star Trek < The Culture.

http://wackyiraqi.com/wtf/i_support_this_post.jpg

Tyrlop

17th November 2009, 14:51

i didn't knew we had so many nerds in here, its like playing cards with someone who knows all the names of the cards.:thumbdown::tt2:

mykittyhasaboner

17th November 2009, 14:52

your a nerd

Honggweilo

17th November 2009, 15:00

your a nerd
i 2nd that

also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Online

MY LIFE WILL END ON FEBRUARY 5th!

khad

17th November 2009, 17:11

anti-fascist and anti-imperialist defence against klingon/cardassians) on instead of sanctifying bourgeois democracy as a true anti-fascist entity in the form of the "weimar" galactic republic.
You know, at the end of DS9, everyone became allies--the Federation, Klingons, Cardassians (who mutinied against the Dominion). I think I would appreciate Star Trek for its humane spirit--at the end of the Battle of Cardassia, Sisko refused to drink to victory because of the tremendous cost on both sides. You never see anyone in Star Wars stop to give respect to the dead. In fact, when (in one of the new movies, I forget which) Obi-Wan crash landed that cruiser into a building and murdered hundreds of innocent civilians, he quipped, "another happy landing!" George Lucas must have the maturity level of a six-year-old.

Panda Tse Tung

17th November 2009, 17:29

khad

17th November 2009, 17:44

Dude, it's a brilliant game. They actually added shit like racism and social classes to make the game more realistic. I started out as a casteless Dwarve, so you really notice the discrimination of 'upper-Dwarves'. Of course the game is set in that time, so i guess it needs to have some dominant class-positions of that time as well. And of course it's not a commie-game either, so they dont really take this shit into account, lol. Still the fact they added these great inequality's makes it a bit more realistic (for a fantasy game). Rather then the Final Fantasy everybody loves the monarch and is equal to anyone but him crap.
You are a fool. This game clearly presents choices which show the superiority of blood monarchy.

1) Dwarf Chapter. You can either support Harrowmont, the experienced assembly member or Prince Behlen the bloodthirsty, thuggish son of the old king. It turns out that Behlen is actually the reformer who is trying to erase class distinctions while Harrowmont, the non-blood ruler, is a conservative.

2) Alastair vs the Queen. Your companion Alastair is actually a prince but has zero experience with anything relating to government. So then the logical choice would be to support the Queen (daughter of the commoner general Loghain), who had been de facto ruling the kingdom while her husband was away fighting, right? WRONG. Alastair does everything the queen does but better and doesn't dick over the elves like she does.

Panda Tse Tung

17th November 2009, 17:48

1) Dwarf Chapter. You can either support Harrowmont, the experienced assembly member or Prince Behlen the bloodthirsty, thuggish son of the old king. It turns out that Behlen is actually the reformer who is trying to erase class distinctions while Harrowmont, the non-blood ruler, is a conservative.Actually, I'm supporting Behlen. I figured out quite soon he was the progressive guy.
If you pay attention, you'll notice. You might not notice because the politics is filled with lies and bullshit, but fi you just pay attention you see quickly enough. Also you can talk to plenty of people in town who support Behlen and call him a reformer.
I'm not jet at the Allistair part, so idk.

khad

17th November 2009, 17:50

Actually, I'm supporting Behlen. I figured out quite soon he was the progressive guy.
If you pay attention, you'll notice. You might not notice because the politics is filled with lies and bullshit, but fi you just pay attention you see quickly enough. Also you can talk to plenty of people in town who support Behlen and call him a reformer.
I'm not jet at the Allistair part, so idk.
You miss the point altogether. When this game gives you the choice between blood rulers and non-blood rulers, it is invariably the case that blood rulers are the force of progress.

Congratulations for letting the game convince you into supporting blood monarchy.

Panda Tse Tung

17th November 2009, 17:54

Ah, so thats your point. Well fine, i still think the game is far more progressive then the vast majority of games I've played (especially RPG's).

khad

17th November 2009, 17:59

Ah, so thats your point. Well fine, i still think the game is far more progressive then the vast majority of games I've played (especially RPG's).
So "progressive" is putting faith in royal families to do what's right.

According to this game, anti-imperialism means restoring the royal family--that if Alastair isn't king you are told that Orlesians have won by destroying the "cultural legacy" of the country.

Play a real game like Fallout Tactics sometime, for Stalin's sake.

Panda Tse Tung

17th November 2009, 18:06

Ohw yeah, cause fallout is really progressive :rolleyes:.

khad

17th November 2009, 18:07

Ohw yeah, cause fallout is really progressive :rolleyes:.
Are you kidding me? Fallout Tactics is as close to pure electronic Stalinism as you can get without having the game made by the NBP.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/which-ending-do-t117988/index.html?t=117988

It isn't the bullshit special forces fantasy of Dragon Age, either.

Panda Tse Tung

17th November 2009, 18:10

Fallout = atomic bomb dropped by evil commies. Need i say more?

khad

17th November 2009, 18:12

Fallout = atomic bomb dropped by evil commies. Need i say more?
Actually, the first Black Isle Fallouts didn't specify that it was the commies who dropped the bomb. The war wasn't even a subject which came up in the games.

It was Bethesda with Fallout 3 which made the Chinese into the scapegoat. They also conveniently reconned Tactics, the most leftwing of the series, out of the timeline.

Choosing your reactionary games over real games is your problem, not mine.

As I said, Fallout: Tactics is pure e-Stalinism. It teaches racial tolerance, anti-elitism, collective action, and ruthlessly purging enemies of the people until their bones are bleaching in the sun.

Raúl Duke

17th November 2009, 18:20

I don't know much of Star Wars or Star Trek games...

but I did like the Mass Effect game...

Panda Tse Tung

17th November 2009, 18:25

khad

17th November 2009, 18:30

Reactionary games rnt real, lol.
I'm just not that easily influenced in my opinion by a simple thing like a game. Lol. As i doubt anyone is. Cause despite the commies dropped the bomb shit in Fallout 3, it is still an awesome game. But of course this is because of my hatred for commies and my love for blood monarchies :p.
You obviously cared enough to defend the reactionary politics of dragon age, so now to say that you don't take politics seriously is just a cheap way to back out of an argument.

That said, the fact that you like Fallout 3, which is xenophobic and racist compared to the rest of the series, doesn't say much for your taste as a whole. It just makes you a philistine.

Panda Tse Tung

17th November 2009, 18:44

You obviously cared enough to defend the reactionary politics of dragon age, so now to say that you don't take politics seriously is just a cheap way to back out of an argument.

I defended it because it did ad class and race to the RPG, which is extremely rare (as i stated not the Final Fantasy like everyone loves the king shit).

That said, the fact that you like Fallout 3, which is xenophobic and racist compared to the rest of the series, doesn't say much for your taste as a whole. It just makes you a philistine.

It's a good game. I think a good story-line is important, but i never hang out to be the PC-police cause i wouldn't be able to enjoy many games or DVD's if i would (exception being documentaries).

khad

17th November 2009, 18:49

It's a good game. I think a good story-line is important, but i never hang out to be the PC-police cause i wouldn't be able to enjoy many games or DVD's if i would (exception being documentaries).
That's where you're wrong. It is important to always be critical, even with media one likes. Was Flaubert a filthy moral degenerate and imperialist? Absolutely, but I still consider Madame Bovary to be a great novel. There are things to appreciate on aesthetic grounds, but politics must never be forgotten. For smiliar reasons I consider George Orwell to be a capable writer despite his questionable politics.

Unfortunately, Dragon Age is plain kitsch that recycles the same Armies-for-Gondor Lord of the Rings formula. Furthermore, any discussion of class is subverted by the game's casting of blood monarchy as the true forces of progress.

Panda Tse Tung

17th November 2009, 18:59

That's where you're wrong. It is important to always be critical, even with media one likes.I judge games and Films on it's entertainment value not it's educational value as i don't believe i can learn anything from them. I don't expect cappie-productions to be talking about the merits of Communism. So it's useless to expect something like that.
Only documentaries, non-fiction books, etc... should be judged on their informational value.
Otherwise we might as well start denouncing almost every single game, tv-show, book and film.

Charmed - had an episode showing that equality, true happiness, etc... is not possible cause people r all 'unique'
Lord of the Rings - pro-monarchy fetishism. etc... etc...

It's pointless to even start.

khad

17th November 2009, 19:03

I judge games and Films on it's entertainment value not it's educational value as i don't believe i can learn anything from them. I don't expect cappie-productions to be talking about the merits of Communism. So it's useless to expect something like that.
Only documentaries, non-fiction books, etc... should be judged on their informational value.
Otherwise we might as well start denouncing almost every single game, tv-show, book and film.

Charmed - had an episode showing that equality, true happiness, etc... is not possible cause people r all 'unique'
Lord of the Rings - pro-monarchy fetishism. etc... etc...

It's pointless to even start.
This is pure liberalism talking. In advanced capitalist society "entertainment" does ideological work. Just talking to any bloke on the street, it is apparent just how much television informs their consciousness. It is pretty pathetic that leftists who otherwise are critical of politics give "entertainment" media a free pass out of some misguided personal libertarianism.

The issue is not that consumption or even enjoyment of entertainment media is inherently wrong, but that the uncritical acceptance of it is simply intellectual laziness.

Panda Tse Tung

17th November 2009, 19:16

khad

17th November 2009, 19:25

No, i just don't expect differently. Also their opinions are mostly shaped by news-broadcasts, newspapers, personal experiences etc... rather then the movie they watched the other day (the exception being documentaries).
You would be quite surprised just how seriously people at the Naval Academy take a movie like 300. You're either young or naive or both.

Well, since for almost every single film, TV-show and game it is clear it's reactionary. Good luck with that. It's pretty pointless since very phew people will take you seriously for it. But sure, if you wish to waste your time like that. Be my guest.Well, looks like someone cannot read. As I said before, I can very well have discussion of various forms of media in terms of aesthetic or artistic merit, but I just choose not to ignore the underlying politics.

Unfortunately with games like Dragon Age (which I cheated to the end because I couldn't be arsed to play through it all), people such as yourself make a half-assed political rationalization only to retreat to libertarian hedonism. I'm surprised you didn't attempt to defend it on aesthetic grounds, but with a plot and premise so cliched and hackneyed, you'd very hard pressed to do it.

This game was billed as the next big thing in CRPGs, but instead what we got was a second-rate rehash of Lord of the Rings with some class struggle elements which are ultimately subverted.

Expecting to see the same trite plot over and over again is the very core of philistinism.

Panda Tse Tung

17th November 2009, 20:28

You would be quite surprised just how seriously people at the Naval Academy take a movie like 300. You're either young or naive or both.

No, someone who takes 300 seriously is naive. I've only once met someone who took a non-biographical film (biographical being motorcycle diaries for example) as truth. Criticizing how reactionary a film/game/tv-show is is pointless, since only a select audience will listen to it (people who generally agree with you). The emphasis of political struggle should lie with agitation, mass-work and convincing people of our ideology. Rather then criticizing how reactionary films are in capitalist society. It is a complete waste of time.

Unfortunately with games like Dragon Age (which I cheated to the end because I couldn't be arsed to play through it all), people such as yourself make a half-assed political rationalization only to retreat to libertarian hedonism. I'm surprised you didn't attempt to defend it on aesthetic grounds, but with a plot and premise so cliched and hackneyed, you'd very hard pressed to do it.

I didn't make a political rationalization, i added some nuance stating they did add class-structures and racism in the game making it far more progressive then your average RPG. A statement which i stand by.

This game was billed as the next big thing in CRPGs, but instead what we got was a second-rate rehash of Lord of the Rings with some class struggle elements which are ultimately subverted.
Thats quite a simplistic way of stating things. The plot is pretty much different from LotR. The only similarity's i see are a big evil threath and an overlord which needs to be defeated (which actually is different from LotR where they need to destroy the ring which holds Saurons powers). Of course you can look for similarities in any plot.

Sentinel

18th November 2009, 02:26

I haven't tried this game, but have really enjoyed most of Bioware's stuff --especially Neverwinter Nights and Baldurs Gate. Two dissapointments include Icewind Dale, and the Storm of Zehir expansion of NWN2.

In both of these you are supposed to create a whole party, rather than a main character, and that's crap imo. SOZ also fucked up my NWN2, as it has a different crappy system for controlling the view, which replaced the regular one in the original game as well, not just the expansion.

ATM I'm more into strategy than RPG, more specifically the Total War games -- I'm playing Medieval 2 atm, and just ordered Rome.

Jazzratt

18th November 2009, 11:20

Honggweilo

18th November 2009, 14:51

You know, at the end of DS9, everyone became allies--the Federation, Klingons, Cardassians (who mutinied against the Dominion). I think I would appreciate Star Trek for its humane spirit--at the end of the Battle of Cardassia, Sisko refused to drink to victory because of the tremendous cost on both sides. You never see anyone in Star Wars stop to give respect to the dead. In fact, when (in one of the new movies, I forget which) Obi-Wan crash landed that cruiser into a building and murdered hundreds of innocent civilians, he quipped, "another happy landing!" George Lucas must have the maturity level of a six-year-old.
As where star treks devotes a whole episode to hologram emancipation, because they are self-conscience beings, and equates it to working class/female/racial emancipation, starwars indiscriminately grinds millions of self-conscience robots with no moral objection. Clearly this movie is made for a younger audience, but still.. Star Trek might not be better sci-fi in terms of action/aesthetics/plot , but its certainly a whole lot more progressive :rolleyes:

Honggweilo

18th November 2009, 15:08

This is pure liberalism talking. In advanced capitalist society "entertainment" does ideological work. Just talking to any bloke on the street, it is apparent just how much television informs their consciousness. It is pretty pathetic that leftists who otherwise are critical of politics give "entertainment" media a free pass out of some misguided personal libertarianism.

The issue is not that consumption or even enjoyment of entertainment media is inherently wrong, but that the uncritical acceptance of it is simply intellectual laziness.
QFT, lern2culturalhegemony

While enjoying a game/movie/novel which cleary sketches a political landscape or comments on social issues, even if fictional, it is still produced with a dominant cultural bias. When a game/movie/novel spits liberal morale (cant we just all get along?, property is sacred, equating communism and fascism as evil twins in ALOT of games and movies, including CoD:MW2) or balant justification of US imperialism (i.e mercinaries 2, ghost recon 2), i cant just uncritcally "enjoy" that without raising an eyebrow .. Low-brow entertainment for some people of our generation their only serious education on worldpolitcs and ethics, and this system damn well knows that and exploits that (hell for some kids Red Alert is closest thing to a history lesson about communism). Dividing your politics and your personal life makes you a hobbyist, and if you keep tollerating it, you are bound to be influenced by it.

If we should be taking this shit seriously, why did the KNE devoted a whole documentary on the budget the american goverment spends to promote US imperialism in videogames?

khad

18th November 2009, 15:19

Star Trek might not be better sci-fi in terms of action/aesthetics/plot , but its certainly a whole lot more progressive :rolleyes:
I can write better plots than George Lucas and idiot corporations like Bioware. And so can many people on revleft. These cultural producers constitute a group which does nothing to enlighten or improve the tastes and attitudes of the population. They produce kitsch for the sake of kitsch.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/ep3_tot2.gif

bcbm

18th November 2009, 15:24

you pretty much just made everything you said illegitimate by using something from maddox.

khad

18th November 2009, 15:29

you pretty much just made everything you said illegitimate by using something from maddox.
Way to be dramatic. I think it's telling that George Lucas's plots are so full of holes and logical inconsistencies that even someone like Maddox can see them. And you wonder why the *smart* individuals on revleft give such things a free pass. :laugh:

Panda Tse Tung

18th November 2009, 15:36

Low-brow entertainment for some people of our generation their only serious education on worldpolitcs and ethics, and this system damn well knows that and exploits that (hell for some kids Red Alert is closest thing to a history lesson about communism). Dividing your politics and your personal life makes you a hobbyist, and if you keep tollerating it, you are bound to be influenced by it.

While it's obvious that these things are mixed, it's pointless and yes as i said a waste of time to debunk these games for this. Because the audience which reads/sees it will mostly consist of Marxists anyway. If you want to convince someone of the Communist ideology i sincerely doubt it's useful to spend your time criticizing the gaming industry for it's obvious bias (what else is there to be expected). When someone is 'converted' (so to speak) to Marxism he will soon enough notice this.
It is thus a waste of resources and time to debunk them, unless you just like debunking them in which case go ahead.

If we should be taking this shit seriously, why did the KNE devoted a whole documentary on the budget the american goverment spends to promote US imperialism in videogames?

Educational purposes, i doubt many outside of the Communist movement watched it.

khad

18th November 2009, 15:42

Educational purposes, i doubt many outside of the Communist movement watched it.
So you first affirm the documentary by saying it's educational, but then you delegitimize it by saying it's irrelevant due to limited distribution. This, actually, says nothing about the validity of the arguments and evidence presented in such a production.

Clearly George Lucas isn't the only person incapable of stringing together a coherent line of argument.

When someone is 'converted' (so to speak) to Marxism he will soon enough notice this.You think it's so easy to "convert" people? The cultural hegemony of capitalism becomes common sense through the passive acceptance of things like entertainment media.

Panda Tse Tung

18th November 2009, 15:44

So you first affirm the documentary by saying it's educational, but then you delegitimize it by saying it's irrelevant due to limited distribution. This, actually, says nothing about the validity of the arguments and evidence presented in such a production.I'm not saying that. But i doubt anyone outside of it would care that much. The essence is the cultural hegemony of capitalism. Not these small individual aspects of it. They are mere examples of it (and should be used as such, not individually).

bcbm

18th November 2009, 15:46

Just trollin and rollin'

I think it's telling that George Lucas's plots are so full of holes and logical inconsistencies that even someone like Maddox can see them. And you wonder why the *smart* individuals on revleft give such things a free pass. :laugh:i don't think anyone but the saddest fanboy would deny that the prequel trilogy is worthless crap, but the original trilogy is a fun space opera. they're entertaining movies, quit intellectualizing everything to death.

khad

18th November 2009, 15:49

I'm not saying that. But i doubt anyone outside of it would care that much. The essence is the cultural hegemony of capitalism. Not these small individual aspects of it. They are mere examples of it (and should be used as such, not individually).
And you as a leftist take mainstream culture's ignorance as a justification to not care? This is hegemony at work, and you don't even realize it.

i don't think anyone but the saddest fanboy would deny that the prequel trilogy is worthless crap, but the original trilogy is a fun space opera. they're entertaining movies, quit intellectualizing everything to death.
In other words, waah, I want to enjoy Star Wars, and I don't want to admit that the Ewoks were the manifestation of the hopeless emotional immaturity of George Lucas. :D

The signs of the shittiness that would be the prequel saga were already well in place by the end of the original trilogy.

Panda Tse Tung

18th November 2009, 15:53

No your not paying attention to my argument. I'm gonna repeat myself only once.
We should focus on criticizing cultural hegemony. It is clear with the CIA financing the gaming industry they see the importance of this cultural hegemony. But what your doing is, you take a small aspect of capitalist culture (an extremely tiny one) and start bashing it. Then if someone says he doesn't care the game is culturally biased cause all games are you start a shit-storm in personal liberalism. While really criticizing these individual aspects is a waste of time and not convincing anyone who isn't already a committed Marxist. What we should point out is the dangers of cultural hegemony in general, and look at how to fight it. Rather then wasting our time on Star Wars and Dragon Age.

bcbm

18th November 2009, 15:55

everybody and their mother admits that. it doesn't take away from the fact that the original trilogy is still entertaining.

khad

18th November 2009, 15:57

What we should point out is the dangers of cultural hegemony in general, and look at how to fight it. Rather then wasting our time on Star Wars and Dragon Age.
Well, frankly, you just strike me as hopelessly naive. Mind you, you initially called Dragon Age a "brilliant game," but quickly backpedaled when it became apparent it was just another piece of cappie bias.

Cultural critique, and yes, Marxist cultural critique, is nothing if not for the critical analysis of media productions.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/armond-white-reviews-t115455/index.html (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/jul2008/dark-j25.shtml)

Honggweilo

18th November 2009, 16:02

While it's obvious that these things are mixed, it's pointless and yes as i said a waste of time to debunk these games for this. Because the audience which reads/sees it will mostly consist of Marxists anyway. If you want to convince someone of the Communist ideology i sincerely doubt it's useful to spend your time criticizing the gaming industry for it's obvious bias (what else is there to be expected). When someone is 'converted' (so to speak) to Marxism he will soon enough notice this.
It is thus a waste of resources and time to debunk them, unless you just like debunking them in which case go ahead.

Educational purposes, i doubt many outside of the Communist movement watched it.

Lol so its equally useless to point out criticism in popular culture like commerical rap, degrading mysogenic reality shows like (..) next top model, the loathing of the workingclass and the unemployed by popular blogs like "geenstijl", and anti-cuban bias in media, ect ect, because "most only marxist would agree"?. Isnt it our duty to educate the masses and learn from their situation as a marxist? or are we just a theoretical club of hobbyists who like to discuss if "it was really all pol pot's fault?" during the enjoyment of a beer and a cigarette in the save premises of our homes? when "converting" (lol) people to a radical class analysis, not even directly to your own organisation, debunking uncritical worldviews is the basis of dialectical materialism, it is an holistic outlook on life. People dont just spontaneously become critical unless their own surroundings pushes them to do so. Do you also think it is a waste of time to be critical on the cultural bias against popular action?

You know what is a waste of time? circlejerking about marginal historic occurances 24/7 on revleft. A critical view on everything in real life is not. I dont give a shit about a marginal computergame as Dragon Age, but i do give a shit about your uncritical view of culture as a whole for someone who is in our organisation.

Panda Tse Tung

18th November 2009, 16:02

Merely criticizing individual media is implying that other media might not be broadcasting this same obvious cultural hegemony. Thats ridiculous to think. And of course critique on cultural hegemony only in the case of examples can be based on individual productions, otherwise it's a waste of time. And if you think that Marxist cultural critique is only based on media productions you should read some Gramsci, or study up on the cultural revolution.

Think of me as naive, but your the one who thinks anyone outside of the Marxist movement gives a crap what you think of Dragon Age's reactionary positions.

Honggweilo

18th November 2009, 16:07

well, frankly, you just strike me as hopelessly naive. Mind you, you initially called dragon age a "brilliant game," but quickly backpedaled when it became apparent it was just another piece of cappie bias.

Cultural critique, and yes, marxist cultural critique, is nothing if not for the critical analysis of media productions.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/armond-white-reviews-t115455/index.html (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/jul2008/dark-j25.shtml)
qft

khad

18th November 2009, 16:07

You know what is a waste of time? circlejerking about marginal historic occurances 24/7 on revleft. A critical view on everything in real life is not. I dont give a shit about a marginal computergame as Dragon Age
Actually, it is the biggest CRPG of the year and even got promotional material from Marilyn Manson along with multiple novels. It is a huge corporate media wankfest (year by year game publishers are taking more and more of a "total media" approach to their releases) and will set precedents, mark my words.

but i do give a shit about your uncritical view of culture as a whole for someone who is in my organisation.Seriously, the Pol Potist user group? As an injoke on the Workerist revleft group, that is way relevant to class struggle.

Panda Tse Tung

18th November 2009, 16:11

Lol so its equally useless to point out criticism in popular culture like commerical rap, degrading mysogenic reality shows like (..) next top model, the loathing of the workingclass and the unemployed by popular blogs like "geenstijl", and anti-cuban bias in media, ect ect, because "most only marxist would agree"?.Your mostly pointing to media broadcasting news or providing opinion pieces. Now that makes it political. I never talked about these things. I'm talking of games, tv-shows and DVD's. But really look at it this way: Dragon Age apparently talks well of the blood monarchy. Well fine, thats bad. But wouldn't it be more useful to attack the idea of a blood monarchy rather then attacking Dragon Age for supporting it? You can of course give Dragon Age as an example of how cultural hegemony works, but would it really be useful?
And the other example you provided is about the sexism in popular culture. Wouldn't it be more usefull to attack sexism and provide these shows as examples?

Isnt is our duty to educate the masses and learn from their situation as marxist?Yes, but what you should always think of: what is usefull and what is not in order to educate people.

You know what is a waste of time? circlejerking about marginal historic occurances 24/7 on revleft.I must add they can be educational and teach us things on previous socialist experiences being usefull to our propaganda.

I dont give a shit about a marginal computergame as Dragon Age, but i do give a shit about your uncritical view of culture as a whole for someone who is in my organisation.As you said it yourself, Dragon Age is marginal, why waste your time criticizing it?
I am highly critical of cultural hegemony, i just think of it as pointless to attempt to debunk every single game i play as reactionary propaganda.

edit:

Seriously, the Pol Potist user group? As an injoke on the Workerist revleft group, that is way relevant to class struggle.
Lol, that made me laugh. He means the Communist Youth Movement of the Netherlands ;)

khad

18th November 2009, 16:14

As you said it yourself, Dragon Age is marginal, why waste your time criticizing it?
As I proved, it's not marginal. It is a huge corporate media event that will probably top the sales charts in the coming holidays and will set precedents for future game and marketing design.

Lol, that made me laugh. He means the Communist Youth Movement of the Netherlands ;)You obviously can't read. That was directed at you. While you are ragging on others for being critical of pop culture, you are wasting your time dicking around with a revleft usergroup created to gripe at another revleft usergroup.

Thank you for showing us the path to real class struggle, you revolutionary, you.

Honggweilo

18th November 2009, 16:14

I can write better plots than George Lucas and idiot corporations like Bioware. And so can many people on revleft. These cultural producers constitute a group which does nothing to enlighten or improve the tastes and attitudes of the population. They produce kitsch for the sake of kitsch.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/ep3_tot2.gif
I was actually indecisive on putting "plot" in to the list, but now that i think of it, ill cut it from the list. I was actually refering to the sidestory novels and some games, which were not writen by Lucas :rolleyes:

Panda Tse Tung

18th November 2009, 16:18

As I proved, it's not marginal

It's a big game, yes. But a marginal aspect of the accompanying culture as a whole.

You obviously can't read. That was directed at you. While you are ragging on others for being critical of pop culture, you are wasting your time dicking around with a revleft usergroup created to gripe at another revleft usergroup.

Thank you for showing us the path to real class struggle, you revolutionary, you

Revleft = serious business. Without revleft where would the class-struggle be?
No i don't go here for class-struggle, class-struggle happens in real life. This is just a place to hang out and have discussions when i got nothing better to do.

Honggweilo

18th November 2009, 16:22

As I proved, it's not marginal. It is a huge corporate media event that will probably top the sales charts in the coming holidays and will set precedents for future game and marketing design.

You obviously can't read. That was directed at you. While you are ragging on others for being critical of pop culture, you are wasting your time dicking around with a revleft usergroup created to gripe at another revleft usergroup.

Thank you for showing us the path to real class struggle, you revolutionary, you.

i lol'd :lol:

Wouldn't it be more usefull to attack sexism and provide these shows as examples? The same could be said for balant tollerance of racism, sexism, pro-feudal romanticism, open support of imperialism, ect ect in mainstream videogames as a whole.

As you said it yourself, Dragon Age is marginal, why waste your time criticizing it?
I am highly critical of cultural hegemony, i just think of it as pointless to attempt to debunk every single game i play as reactionary propaganda. Lol were did i say i debunk every game you play as reactionairy propaganda? I seriously enjoy the C&C series, and thats hardly a jewel of "marxist-approve" content. It just happens you generaly have bad taste in games imho :p. For example, why do you say that "final fantasy has that everyone is equal but the king" morale? every final fantasy is a stand alone storyline, and the last 2 final fantasy are actually a Star Wars plot ripoff :p

It's a big game, yes. But a marginal aspect of the accompanying culture as a whole. In order to criticize the superstructure, you must expose the substructure

khad

18th November 2009, 16:25

It's a big game, yes. But a marginal aspect of the accompanying culture as a whole.

Mass Effect, Bioware's previous effort, sold approximately 2 million copies. Adding on a few million for pirated and shared copies, and given that the total male population of the United States between the ages of 15-24 is 20 million, easily a quarter of the target audience would have been exposed to it. Hardly marginal when you do the math.

Like it or not, video games are a huge part of the media consumption of today's youth. According to sales reports, Dragon Age is already up to half a million copies within a week of release.

Panda Tse Tung

18th November 2009, 16:26

The same could be said for balant tollerance of racism, sexism, pro-feudal romanticism, open support of imperialism, ect ect in mainstream videogames as a whole.Yes. Thats why I'm saying it's more important to emphasize on the dangers of cultural hegemony, rather then these games individually.

Lol were did i say i debunk every game you play as reactionairy propaganda?Almost every game around is reactionary to one extend or another, with the exeption of but a phew.

I seriously enjoy the C&C series, and thats hardly a jewel of "marxist-approve" content. It just happens you generaly have bad taste in games imho :p.Lol, i have a very sophisticated taste :rolleyes:.

For example, why do you say that "final fantasy has the everyone is equal but the king" morale? every final fantasy is a stand alone storyline, and the last 2 final fantasy are actually a Star Wars plot ripoff http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_tongue.gif:pI havent played the last 2 unfortunately. In the vast majority they have benevolent kings who is loved by everybody. But yes, they are standalone games (luckily, otherwise they would get boring seeing as we're at 12 already).

Mass Effect, Bioware's previous effort, sold approximately 2 million copies. Adding on a few million for pirated and shared copies, and given that the total male population of the United States between the ages of 15-24 is 20 million, easily a quarter of the target audience would have been exposed to it. Hardly marginal when you do the math.

Like it or not, video games are a huge part of the media consumption of today's youth.

Thats a lot, yes. But I'll repeat: Is it not more useful to convince someone that blood monarchy is a bad thing? Rather then convincing them Dragon Age supports it. This is not a Socialist society, so I'm not expecting games to live up to this standard. If this we're a socialist society i would agree we'd need to criticize it directly and individually piece by piece. It's not, so we can expect these games to live up to capitalist morality and values. As i said previously: i think it's a waste of time to debunk almost every single game you play as reactionary.

khad

18th November 2009, 16:32

As i said previously: i think it's a waste of time to debunk almost every single game you play as reactionary.
You're only saying that because you backpedaled from your initial claim of Dragon Age being a "brilliant game."

As DR said, you just play shitty games. Play Fallout: Tactics. For Stalin. I would also recommend Culpa Innata, which is based on Alev Alatli's book about a future genetic dystopia. There are plenty of games with politics that strive outside of the mainstream. You just choose not to give a shit because of your own apathy towards capitalist cultural hegemony.

Honggweilo

18th November 2009, 16:33

I havent played the last 2 unfortunately. In the vast majority they have benevolent kings who is loved by everybody. But yes, they are standalone games (luckily, otherwise they would get boring seeing as we're at 12 already). Uhmmm no, those are just the first 3, actually the fast majority isnt based in a feudal setting. Even those who are like FF Online actually incorporate workers republics and green federations.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Bastok
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Windurst

Yes. Thats why I'm saying it's more important to emphasize on the dangers of cultural hegemony, rather then these games individually. Read my previous comment.. When a stike breaks out on a specific issue like the pension age, do you ignore the issue and action against it to focus on vague theoretical about "well thats capitalism folks!". They are interlinked

Honggweilo

18th November 2009, 16:37

Borderlands is also a jewel of inovative co-op play with one console, a reversed fallout (shooter-rpg like deux ex) in somewhat the same setting only a bit less depressing, and it has a 4 player saveable co-op! which is so awesome and really worth your money. Its has an awesome arsenal of weapons and items, the plot is okayish, but the gameplay is gold. Also its not a fallout ripoff since it was in production way before betheseda desided to work on Fallout 3.

And ofcourse Tropico 3, which is a major inprovement on 1 :); Presidential speeches, secret police, same-sex marriages, nuclear testing, social security, roads, introduction of oil, more micromanagement, and alot of quotes, seriously good ones, in the loading screen from lenin, marx, che, allende, fidel, ortega, machiavelli, malcom x, mao, pinochet, salazar, franco, friedman, ect XD

Panda Tse Tung

18th November 2009, 16:38

You're only saying that because you backpedaled from your initial claim of Dragon Age being a "brilliant game."I'm not backpedaling from anything. It's a brilliant game. As a game. I'm not expecting any story to be perfect. I merely added Dragon age is far more progressive then your average game. Which it is.
Also, everything i said in that response, i had said before. I was merely repeating it.

As DR said, you just play shitty games. Play Fallout: Tactics. For Stalin. No.

Uhmmm no, those are just the first 3, actually the fast majority isnt based in a feudal setting. Even those who are like FF Online actually incorporate workers republics and green federations.Well i only played the first 3, 6 and 9 or 8 i forgot which one. I bought online but it crashed on my xbox360 some unrestorable error of FFO, bastards... 30 euro's through the drain.

Read my previous comment.. When a stike breaks out on a specific issue like the pension age, do you ignore the issue and action against it to focus on vague theoretical about "well thats capitalism folks!"Thats a direct assault on the working conditions of the masses. Not the same as some game propagating some reactionary viewpoint (which almost all of them do, exceptions being pacman and space invaders...).

khad

18th November 2009, 16:40

I'm not backpedaling from anything. It's a brilliant game. As a game. I'm not expecting any story to be perfect. I merely added Dragon age is far more progressive then your average game. Which it is.
No, it isn't. It's far more reactionary than your average game because it's an exercise in creative misdirection. It recognizes the struggle by the working classes, but ultimately gives them no voice and agency and asserts that the only path to progress is through the benevolence of a blood monarch.

As a game, it is poorly written from the standard bioware mold--special forces + 4 main quest areas + shitty conclusion. It is cliche upon cliche, ripped off from other games like NWN2 which was in turn ripped off from Lord of the Rings. To call this brilliance is an insult to any language.

Thats a direct assault on the working conditions of the masses. Not the same as some game propagating some reactionary viewpoint (which almost all of them do, exceptions being pacman and space invaders...).
That's only because of your shitty tastes. I can name dozen games which do not peddle hardcore reactionary politics like Dragon Age.

Panda Tse Tung

18th November 2009, 16:42

No, it isn't. It's far more reactionary than your average game because it's an exercise in creative misdirection. It recognizes the struggle by the working classes, but ultimately gives them no voice and agency and asserts that the only path to progress is through the benevolence of a blood monarch.
It recognizes class, shitloads of RPG's don't even have class. Everybody loves the monarch (with the exception of one i played where the monarch was no longer ruler, but still seen as the peoples monarch by his people).

Honggweilo

18th November 2009, 16:49

shitloads of RPG's don't even have class
I'm sure every RPG has "classes", generic RPG's revolve around classes XD

also, if shitloads of RPG's dont have class, as you say, wouldnt that be a good thing :cool: :rolleyes:

khad

18th November 2009, 16:52

It recognizes class, shitloads of RPG's don't even have class. Everybody loves the monarch (with the exception of one i played where the monarch was no longer ruler, but still seen as the peoples monarch by his people).
Planescape: Torment had disease ridden slums, oppressive cops, and anarchoterrorists. Fallout (not the Bethesda shit) had class. Fallout: Tactics shows your rise from a peasant recruit to become the vanguard of class/racial tolerance. Gothic had class (you are in a prison labor camp). Arcanum. Morrowind (anti-imperialism)

You just have shitty tastes.

Honggweilo

18th November 2009, 16:53

Morrowind had a whole book series on imperialist and colonial exploitation!

khad

18th November 2009, 16:58

It had a whole book series on imperialist and colonial exploitation!
It actually invites a dialectical reading because the anti-imperialist force that you represent is neither a return to traditionalism (as in many of these stories) nor the project of the nationalist status quo. It is a rupture that destabilizes the comprador elites and reaches out to the whole of the dunmer population. Interestingly enough, the empire created the contradictions from which it would be destroyed (your character starts out as an imperial intelligence agent).

bcbm

18th November 2009, 17:37

i joined the legion :(

Panda Tse Tung

18th November 2009, 17:41

also, if shitloads of RPG's dont have class, as you say, wouldnt that be a good thing Lol, though they do have kings and money. So...

Planescape: Torment had disease ridden slums, oppressive cops, and anarchoterrorists. Fallout (not the Bethesda shit) had class. Fallout: Tactics shows your rise from a peasant recruit to become the vanguard of class/racial tolerance. Gothic had class (you are in a prison labor camp). Arcanum. Morrowind (anti-imperialism)I'm sure they got reactionary elements in those games.
Lets take the first couple i can think of that i own:

Dynasty warriors 5 & 6 - you have to suppress a peasant-uprising (depicted as a bunch of nutcakes, the yellow turban uprising. Google it) and the Shu is depicted as the only idealists in the game, but all they want to do is restore the Han-dynasty.
Lord of the Rings conquest - well it's LotR, 'nough said.
CoD4 Modern warfare - promoting Imperialism
CoD waw - depicting the Soviets in the enemy at the gates style.
Far Cry 2 - claiming revolutionaries are all stupid opportunists fighting for their own good.
Oblivion - benevolent king, 'nough said.
Fable 2 - upholds the great man view of history. Where individuals, and not the masses make history.

Edit: my point being I'm not opening threads/writing articles or starting discussions on every single one of those games even though the majority is as if not more popular then Dragon Age, and even more reactionary in some cases then Dragon Age. Why not? Cause it serves no purpose to the movement.

khad

18th November 2009, 23:15

I'm sure they got reactionary elements in those games.
Lets take the first couple i can think of that i own:

Dynasty warriors 5 & 6 - you have to suppress a peasant-uprising (depicted as a bunch of nutcakes, the yellow turban uprising. Google it) and the Shu is depicted as the only idealists in the game, but all they want to do is restore the Han-dynasty.
Lord of the Rings conquest - well it's LotR, 'nough said.
CoD4 Modern warfare - promoting Imperialism
CoD waw - depicting the Soviets in the enemy at the gates style.
Far Cry 2 - claiming revolutionaries are all stupid opportunists fighting for their own good.
Oblivion - benevolent king, 'nough said.
Fable 2 - upholds the great man view of history. Where individuals, and not the masses make history.
You just proved DR's point. You do have shitty taste. And don't presume that you're qualified to lecture me on the Yellow Turbans.

Don't even try to run this liberal equivalency garbage past me. However nitpicky you want to get with a game like Fallout: Tactics, Hard to Be a God, or Gothic, the reactionary elements contained therein do not compare to the garbage in the games you listed. Hard to Be a God is probably the most amenable to a leftwing interpretation out of all these CRPGs, since it actually recognizes the material and ideological limitations of a feudal rebellion while sympathizing openly with the citizen-revolutionaries.

It is also apparent to me that you eat up cliche upon cliche and call it artistic brilliance.

Sentinel

18th November 2009, 23:26

^ The total war games are absolute classics. Although I always fared better in the generally tactical battles rather than the much more strategic map bits. Then again it might be because the first time I played medieval I basically just spammed peasents, took over about half of Europe and then my entire war machine collapsed because I had more than a thousand (utterly shite) troops to feed...

I'm playing as the Byzantine Empire (I'm a history freak and have a thing for them). the most important thing in the game is to keep your 'reputation' up, by not sacking cities or executing prisoners unless you absolutely have to, or are really powerful so that it doesn't matter anymore. Otherwise you end up fighting on all sides, as the AI attacks factions with bad reputation.

Although, as the Byzantine Empire is orthodox christian all the catholic and islamic factions will consider you fair game anyway if you choose to play as them. :lol:

Also build up your farming and ports to max, and garrison your cities with free upkeep troops -- you will see a huge upswing in your economy as a result, and can then build up strong field armies.

Harveyholt

19th November 2009, 07:09

I think dragon age sucked hardcore..turns out i spent 60 bucks on a pile of crap..it could look so much better..the game play is the same old junk..it lags here an there like the cut scenes skip..id give it a -3 outta 10. if ur gunna try this game then rent it or look through ur neighborhoods trash on trash day.

RHIZOMES

19th November 2009, 08:02

Hmm all the Star Trek / Star Wars mudflinging:

Yeah I'm more thinking the actual systems of government and representations of class struggle in the show everyone else is more talking of the actual moral of the stories... when people put it that way Star Trek is more progressive. But the system itself of both shows presents different pictures. One is this weird as shit liberal militarist utopia with no struggle between any classes or commanders or whatever just "ohh all of humanity gets along" despite all the disturbing militarian overtones... petty-bourgeois in that Sisko's granddad owns a restuarant, sort of thing. At least Star Wars presents some sort of ideological powerful struggle on a grand scale than all the bourgeois secular humanist hippy bullshit in Star Trek.

Also fyi I actually enjoy Star Trek more aesthetically. :p

Honggweilo

19th November 2009, 09:29

One is this weird as shit liberal militarist utopia
Trotsky' wet dream

they see me trollin... :rolleyes:

petty-bourgeois in that Sisko's granddad owns a restuarant, sort of thing Ooooh one guy runs a restaurant, small shop owners arent eliminated under socialism :p. Hardly basis to call the show petty bourgeois (which is obviously is). Although human society may be presented as a classles society (which was founded on alot of class struggle, see WWIII, eugenic wars, bell riots, and the "neo-trotskyte goverment" they mention during the latter :p), there are still alot of episode revolving around class struggle in different episodes, in human society as in other civilisations, most prominent in the episode were Rom forms a union and pickets Quarks bar.

"ohh all of humanity gets along" despite all the disturbing militarian overtonesSeeing the internal and external aggression they face, i say its quite logical. About the liberal bullshit, starfleet has section 31, their secret police, i would hardly call that liberal :p.

Anyway if you want to see a sci-fi movie completely revolving around class struggle, see this one;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin-dza-dza!

Panda Tse Tung

19th November 2009, 12:42

You just proved DR's point. You do have shitty taste. And don't presume that you're qualified to lecture me on the Yellow Turbans.
Yes, cause it's such a known uprising :rolleyes:.
Also on bad taste: maybe so, but their still very popular games (exception being Dynasty Warriors and the LotR game). So they must've done something right. I don't play games cause their less or more reactionary and judge them on that basis for entertainment value.

Don't even try to run this liberal equivalency garbage past me. However nitpicky you want to get with a game like Fallout: Tactics, Hard to Be a God, or Gothic, the reactionary elements contained therein do not compare to the garbage in the games you listed. Hard to Be a God is probably the most amenable to a leftwing interpretation out of all these CRPGs, since it actually recognizes the material and ideological limitations of a feudal rebellion while sympathizing openly with the citizen-revolutionaries.

You completely ignored the point i made. These are all popular games, But why would i bother to open threads on every single one of them? When the problem is obviously cultural hegemony.

It is also apparent to me that you eat up cliche upon cliche and call it artistic brilliance.

I'm not calling anything artistic brilliance, i stated i liked the game. Thats not noting on it's artistic value but it's entertainment value.

hugsandmarxism

19th November 2009, 14:08

N'wah! :p

Wanted Man

19th November 2009, 14:15

It had a whole book series on imperialist and colonial exploitation!

Which one was that again?

I played and finished MW again a few weeks ago. It's still magnificent as ever. I have a kickass mod (http://lgnpc.sabregirl.com/) that makes all the characters in the game less generic, and has dozens of new quests. This makes it a joy to play, especially with House Redoran. One of the things that the mod expands is the things you can do as Archmaster (in the vanilla game, you don't have to do anything in any leadership position). You can make a few decisions that affect the House's relation to the Empire. Unfortunately, you don't ever really see the consequences of this, as far as I know.

khad

19th November 2009, 14:16

Yeah I'm more thinking the actual systems of government and representations of class struggle in the show everyone else is more talking of the actual moral of the stories... when people put it that way Star Trek is more progressive. But the system itself of both shows presents different pictures. One is this weird as shit liberal militarist utopia with no struggle between any classes or commanders or whatever just "ohh all of humanity gets along" despite all the disturbing militarian overtones...
You're condemning Star Trek for militarism? When was the last time you saw any rebel in Star Wars who wasn't a soldier?

Raúl Duke

19th November 2009, 15:07

Uhmmm no, those are just the first 3, actually the fast majority isnt based in a feudal setting. Even those who are like FF Online actually incorporate workers republics and green federations.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Bastok
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Windurst

I played that game sometime before (then stopped, I seemingly can't commit to MMORPGs for some reason)...
I never saw Bastok as a worker's republic, to me it represented an industrialized capitalist nation with a bourgeois government. Also the nation has, although don't remember if it was both de jure and de facto or just de facto, descrimination and economic exploitation of the Galka race.

In Windurst, it seems to be more similar to the Iroquois federation in concept then anything as a democratic federation. Also, when you play the game, I think you uncover that there's a underlying bit of friction between the Mithra and the Tarutaru races (Tarutaru hold more political power, I think...I don't remember much).

RedStarOverChina

19th November 2009, 15:27

RedStarOverChina

19th November 2009, 15:28

My all-time favoriate is still Morrowind. Oblivion comes second.

khad

19th November 2009, 15:30

Actually, I just started the game and I found it OK. I started with a Elf living in the slums, on the day I'm supposed to get married the human Noblemen took my wife, so I rose up against my feudal lords.

Havent had the time to continue much further though.
It amounts to nothing, trust me. The rest of the game has you telling people that you're an elf because they speak to you as if you were a human. Furthermore, you are railroaded into helping the "good nobility" against the commoner usurpers.

The game gives an impression of class struggle, but really, it doesn't do shit. The best thing you can do for your ghetto is to support the hereditary prince because the commoner-queen will go police state on the elves' asses.

bcbm

19th November 2009, 15:39

When was the last time you saw any rebel in Star Wars who wasn't a soldier? most of the rebel leaders shown in the movies are politicians.

khad

20th November 2009, 01:45

most of the rebel leaders shown in the movies are politicians.
So's Palpatine. And how many rebel leaders have you seen in the films?

bcbm

20th November 2009, 02:41

So's Palpatine. what's your point? he's also a sith, so technically a soldier.
And how many rebel leaders have you seen in the films? mon mothma is the only major civillian leader i can think of off the top of my head. well, bail organa is in one of the prequels. most of the primary rebel characters weren't really "soldiers" until the second film though.

Os Cangaceiros

20th November 2009, 03:00

My two favorite games as a kid were kind of "reactionary", thinking back on it (those would be Grand Theft Auto: Vice City and Age Of Empires: The Age of Kings).

In fact, one of my favorite things to do in AOE was sending in a division of cavalry to conduct bloody massacres of villagers as they desperately tried to flee. I kinda miss that game. :(

RedStarOverChina

20th November 2009, 03:25

You know what the best part is? I have managed to download all my computer games with out paying for them...I havent paid any money for non-pirated software for more than two years. It's one of the biggest advantages in knowing Chinese, IMO :)

I downloaded Dragon Age a week ago and Im currently downloading Modern Warfare 2.

Black Sheep

20th November 2009, 09:41

I play DAO now.
Rocks so far (just got saved by the witch from the tower).

Jazzratt

20th November 2009, 12:43

My two favorite games as a kid were kind of "reactionary", thinking back on it (those would be Grand Theft Auto: Vice City and Age Of Empires: The Age of Kings).

As a kid I always played Sid Meier's Colonization (the one from '94) - it does what it says on the tin: you play as a colonial power and basically do the colonisation thing. Come to think of it I still play, and love, that game. In fact I might go and play it right now.

Искра

20th November 2009, 13:11

hugsandmarxism

20th November 2009, 14:42

AoE2 is cool.
I play it even today.
Yesterday I won battle on line against 7 opponents. I butchered them with Mongol. I killed 2000 enemies :)
But then again it's stupid to talk about reactionary games. Change the system and video games will follow.

I do think we need a leftist mod community to revolutionize gaming now. I'd love to see a mod for TES3 where, after becoming the Nerevarine and beating Dagoth Ur, wage a revolutionary struggle to kick the empire out of Vvardenfell. I'd definitely play that :lol:

khad

20th November 2009, 16:36

hugsandmarxism

20th November 2009, 17:37

Why not both?

bcbm

20th November 2009, 17:42

RHIZOMES

20th November 2009, 22:07

Anyway if you want to see a sci-fi movie completely revolving around class struggle, see this one;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin-dza-dza!

That film is brilliant. YELLOW PANTS

Honggweilo

20th November 2009, 23:27

That film is brilliant. YELLOW PANTS
so he doesnt have to bow to the red pants anymore and the Ecilop brutality at night will end :lol:

Luisrah

21st November 2009, 00:26

I do think we need a leftist mod community to revolutionize gaming now. I'd love to see a mod for TES3 where, after becoming the Nerevarine and beating Dagoth Ur, wage a revolutionary struggle to kick the empire out of Vvardenfell. I'd definitely play that :lol:

I don't get it, I stopped playing Morrowind because I was getting bored.

I don't get why so many people loved it, while they hated Oblivion.
A guy that calls you, and you are a sort of the chosen one or whatever, and you have to go to the volcano to defeat the evil guy.
Am I missing something here?

Oblivion was one of the best games I've ever played, though it lacked LOTS of things.

KOTOR was the second best. It had the best story. I was really amazed when I found out the most important thing (not gonna spoil for those who haven't played yet)

I like most games. I loved the Total War games, and AOE, where I also liked to massacre villagers.

And I'm almost having a heart attack while waiting for Star Wars The Old Republic.
I mean, It seems absolutely awesome. :tt1:

STAR WARS RULES, EVEN IF IT IS REACTIONARY. I'D KILL FOR A LIGHTSABER SO THAT I COULD DO *ZWOOOM WOOOM CLASH, WOOOM, FSSSSS* oops heheh :D

bcbm

21st November 2009, 01:59

I don't get why so many people loved it, while they hated Oblivion. A guy that calls you, and you are a sort of the chosen one or whatever, and you have to go to the volcano to defeat the evil guy. Am I missing something here? i think its more all the other crap you can do. i've had morrowind for like... six years and i still haven't gone more than two missions into the main quest.

khad

21st November 2009, 02:09

i think its more all the other crap you can do. i've had morrowind for like... six years and i still haven't gone more than two missions into the main quest.
Actually, that's not the issue at all. People generally like the complexity of the story in Morrowind and think that the tacked-on armies-gondor plot of Oblivion was crap.

hugsandmarxism

21st November 2009, 02:21

People generally like the complexity of the story in Morrowind and think that the tacked-on armies-gondor plot of Oblivion was crap.

Not to mention that they crippled the amount of magic you could use (they stole my levitation spell!) and got rid of alot of weapons (crossbow, spear, throwing weapons, etc). The plot was good, Vvardenfell had lots of room to explore. Oblivion had a better graphics engine and combat system (imo, new generation of consoles) but disappointed in almost every other aspect.

Искра

21st November 2009, 02:33

Morrowind is cool
I didn't do quests ... I made a gang and start to rob rich people...
EXPROPRIATE!!!! :tt2:

bcbm

21st November 2009, 02:42

you don't have to be such an aggressive dick all the time.

khad

21st November 2009, 02:45

actually it was an issue a lot of people discussed on the elder scrolls forums.
I'm aware of the debate. I am also aware that in general people liked the plot of Morrowind better. It has a much better designed main questline that takes you around the entire island, as opposed to Oblivion which you can do by visiting 2 cities.

bcbm

21st November 2009, 05:30

and in general people thought that there was more to do in morrowind. christ, they're complimentary arguments.

Wanted Man

21st November 2009, 08:19

i roughly planned out a mod for tes3 that involved building a revolutionary struggle and all that, but lacked the technical prowess to do much with it.

Cool. There seems to be quite a bit of demand for this, I also remember someone on Soviet-Empire who outlined his plans for a mod like that years ago. If anything like that is ever made, it would be cool, but I'm enjoying my current setup very much already.

I don't get it, I stopped playing Morrowind because I was getting bored.

I don't get why so many people loved it, while they hated Oblivion.
A guy that calls you, and you are a sort of the chosen one or whatever, and you have to go to the volcano to defeat the evil guy.
Am I missing something here?

Yes. :p To be fair, MW is not for everyone. Some people think every detail is brilliant, others just get bored. The first time I played it was like 4 years ago, and I just didn't get it at all. The game ended up collecting dust for months, before I gave it another go. Eventually, I really started to enjoy playing it. It's not just the story or the main quest, it's everything around it as well. Once I began adding mods to the game, it really became fun, but the original game is already very good.

I haven't played Oblivion much, so I can't judge it very well. I don't have any computer that can run it in its full glory. My laptop is from 2007, but it has a crappy video card, so that doesn't help. But from what I've gathered, it seems that Oblivion has gotten rid of some of the best elements of MW.

Luisrah

21st November 2009, 13:50

In Oblivion you had to go to the Imperial City, you had to go to Weinon Priory (which was right next to Chorrol, and only a stupid person wouldn't sell most of Jauffre's things there :laugh:)
You had to go to Kvatch and to Bruma too.

But, if you want to finish the main questline better, you have to go to all cities in order to close oblivion gates and gather soldiers for Bruma.

Not to mention that Oblivion also sends you around on the mountains, for example, when you go in search of a Daedra to get an item to give to Martin, or when you go find the Mystic Dawn's (is that the name?) cave.

While when I played Morrowind, I went around a bit, and suddenly all I had left to do was go to the volcano.
Plus the fact that the Blademaster's contacts always asked you a favor in return for info really annoyed me :glare:

I guess it was because I played Oblivion before I played Morrowind.

khad

21st November 2009, 14:14

Actually, you're wrong.

In Oblivion you had to go to the Imperial City, you had to go to Weinon Priory (which was right next to Chorrol, and only a stupid person wouldn't sell most of Jauffre's things there :laugh:)
You had to go to Kvatch and to Bruma too.
You just proved my point. The only two cities you MUST go to are the Imperial City and Bruma.

Kvatch doesn't count because it's just a dungeon, and the city never gets rebuilt.

But, if you want to finish the main questline better, you have to go to all cities in order to close oblivion gates and gather soldiers for Bruma.
That's a lot more contrived than Morrowind sending you around the island to learn its culture and history. Oblivion's plot device is one of the most commonly used cliches:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GondorCallsForAid

Honggweilo

21st November 2009, 15:07

Umm didnt you have to go to talk to all the cities administrators to help them close their oblivion gates?

khad

21st November 2009, 15:17

Umm didnt you have to go to talk to all the cities administrators to help them close their oblivion gates?
It's not required. It just makes the endgame somewhat easier.

Honggweilo

21st November 2009, 15:29

i did, and alot of sidequests. But it was an obvious tactic by Betheseda, releasing it on the xbox360 (its meant to be played as a pc game) and porting it to the PC.. They wanted to give a choice to players , giving a shortcut to casual ones and an extended storyline to fans...

khad

21st November 2009, 15:32

Luisrah

21st November 2009, 23:46

Well, it made for an unimaginative plot. The console port really limited what Oblivion could have been.

You're right about that.

I really liked Oblivion, but it could have been the game of the millenium.

Revy

22nd November 2009, 03:56

DONT TALK SHIT ABOUT STAR TREK!

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/New_World_Economy
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Union
and didnt Rodenberry recieve the "order of lenin" or some other scientific distinction from the USSR? And how is the Federation an imperialist entity? its a horizontal federation of voluntary membership! Fact is Star Trek is way more progressive then the starwars franchize will ever be, and it has way more serious progressive socio-economic content (i.e the importance of labour unions, anti-capitalist criticism, anti-fascist and anti-imperialist defence against klingon/cardassians) on instead of sanctifying bourgeois democracy as a true anti-fascist entity in the form of the "weimar" galactic republic.

I rest my case

SCI-FI WARZZ!! BRING IT *****EZ!

Maybe under Roddenberry, he was progressive. He was open to having gay relationships shown on Star Trek.

But after Roddenberry died in 1991, they adopted a more conservative approach especially on the issue of homosexuality which was never allowed to be presented on Star Trek.

Read (http://www.webpan.com/dsinclair/trek.html) all about the decades-long struggle to include gay characters on Star Trek, which never succeeded.

About the economy, it is never (at least post-Roddenberry, during the movie First Contact and the show Voyager?) presented as "socialist". Rather it is assumed that because of technological advances allowing for unlimited production they do away with money and have a more utopian economic system. There's not much for the viewer to infer anything of a left-wing nature and certainly not revolutionary.

Enterprise is even more conservative, filled with not-so-subtle American patriotism in the intro song, which honors European "explorers" as well. The intro song itself is quasi-religious droning on about "faith of the heart" and "strength of the soul". The actual show itself is socially, not futuristic at all and has traditional gender roles, misogynistic portrayals of women, heteronormativity. During a period of real-life imperialist war, it's not hard to see the parallels being drawn with America, as Archer decides to bomb a civilian research base on a moon because it's "necessary" or they will radio the enemy. This tells the viewer that killing civilians in war is "OK".

khad

22nd November 2009, 04:18

Maybe under Roddenberry, he was progressive. He was open to having gay relationships shown on Star Trek.

The old Star Trek had some of the most egregious Cold Warrior propaganda episodes. You must have a screw loose to complain about "traditional gender roles, misogynistic portrayals of women" in the new series when half of TOS consisted of Captain Kirk's lameass womanizing machismo. The new series were much, MUCH more progressive with respect to the treatment of women and non-whites. This is not merely script bullshit but was reflected in the treatment of the cast.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Omega_Glory_%28episode%29

Once on the planet, Captain Tracey informs them there is a natural immunity offered by the planet's environment – they will stay alive only as long as they remain on Omega IV. Captain Tracey lives among the Kohms (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Kohm), an iron (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Iron)-age people engaged in a war with the Yangs (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Yang), a seemingly primitive, savage and fierce tribal culture – one of whose leaders has just been taken captive. Kirk learns that Tracey has been using Federation technology to assist the Kohms in their fight and has become something of a leader of the group, a clear violation of Starfleet (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starfleet)'s Prime Directive (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Prime_Directive) of non-interference with developing civilizations.

"Captain’s log, supplemental. The Enterprise has left the Exeter and has moved into close planet orbit. Although it appears the infection may strand us here the rest of our lives, I face an even more difficult problem – a growing belief that Captain Tracey has been interfering with the evolution of life on this planet. It seems impossible. A star captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive."

Tracey explains that his goal was mere survival, but Kirk soon learns that he has an ulterior motive. The Kohm people have no record of any kind of disease but possess extremely long lifespans, well over 1,000 Earth (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Earth) years. He wishes to use the resources of the Enterprise to isolate the cause for this "super-immunity", cure themselves and share the agent with the Federation. To do this, he must keep the Yangs at bay, and asks for additional phasers (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Phaser) to slaughter the remaining Yang force. When Kirk refuses to assist him, Tracey confiscates the landing party's phasers, takes the party prisoner and throws Kirk into a cell with the Yang "savage" while he plans a massive assault against the Yang armies. After a fight, however, Kirk comes to realize that the Yangs worship concepts such as freedom and bear remarkable similarities to the native peoples of North America – the "North American Natives (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/American_Indian)" – and helps the Yang prisoner escape. McCoy, in the meantime, learns that both the super-immunity enjoyed by the Omega IV inhabitants – and the plague which killed the Exeter's crew – came as a result of biological warfare experiments similar to those researched by Earth in the late twentieth century (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/20th_century). He discovers that the longer a person stays on the planet, the more well-established the immunity; if the Exeter landing party had stayed on the planet just a few hours longer, no one would have died. Tracey's Kohm force is routed by the Yangs and he realizes that Kirk freed the Yang prisoner to warn the others of the attack. He escapes to confront Kirk, only to learn the truth about the planet; still hoping to isolate a bargaining chip to counter any charges against him, Tracey fights Kirk, only to have both taken prisoner by the Yangs. Kirk and Spock eventually realize that Omega IV's culture was an extremely close parallel of Earth's ("Yangs" is a mispronunciation of "Yankees", while "Kohms" originally were "Communists") except the Omegans fought the war Earth managed to avoid, and the Kohms took over the planet. The Yangs have been fighting to regain their land ever since; this is confirmed when the victorious Yangs bring in their battle standard – an ancient, tattered "stars and stripes" US (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/United_States) flag.
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/3/31/CloudWilliamPledge.jpg/180px-CloudWilliamPledge.jpg (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/File:CloudWilliamPledge.jpg) http://images.wikia.com/common/releases_200911.2/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/File:CloudWilliamPledge.jpg)
Cloud William (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cloud_William) badly mangles the Pledge of Allegiance (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance)

The Yang prisoner is Cloud William (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cloud_William), their chief, and the "holy words" (which only a chief may speak) are a badly slurred version of the Pledge of Allegiance (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance). Kirk interprets the Pledge and speaks the words himself, and begins to explain where he is from, but Tracey picks up on the theme and tries to turn the Yangs against Kirk by declaring he was "cast out of heaven" – pointing to Spock's appearance as similar to the appearance of "the evil one". To test Kirk, Cloud William reads from the "greatest of holies" and challenges Kirk to translate. Unable to initially translate, Kirk counters that their sacred legends promise that good is stronger than evil, and fights Tracey man-to-man to prove it. As Kirk defeats Tracey, a landing party of volunteers from the Enterprise, led by Lieutenant Sulu (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hikaru_Sulu), beams down to take control of the situation. Seeing this, Cloud William believes Kirk to be God (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/God)'s servant. Kirk informs the Yangs that the "holy words" were not merely written for chiefs, but for everyone, even the Kohms. He reads the "greatest of holies" – the preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America, and tells Cloud William the words must apply to everyone or they are meaningless. When Spock asks Kirk if his actions do not also violate the Prime Directive, Kirk explains he was simply explaining the meaning of what they were fighting for... as all the Yangs read the Constitution.Actual labor issues involved in the the new series
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Beverly_Crusher

Beverly Crusher was one of the least-defined characters when TNG was conceived in 1986. She was merely present to act as a mother to Wesley (at one point a female, called Leslie) and as a romantic foil to Picard. According to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion, she did not even receive her own page of background notes until the final edition of the writer's guide. The original casting call for her character was as follows:

BEVERLY CRUSHER – Leslie's 35-year-old mother. She serves as the chief medical officer on the Enterprise. If it were not for her intelligence, personality, beauty, and the fact that she has a natural walk of a striptease queen, Capt. Picard might not have agreed to her request that Leslie observe bridge activities; therefore letting her daughter's intelligence carry events further.

Officially, the difficulties in developing Crusher's character led to her character's departure by the second season. Unlike Natasha Yar, however, the TNG writing staff reassigned Crusher to Starfleet Medical, leaving open the possibility for her return. The writing staff's dissatisfaction with the Pulaski character, fan pressure via a letter-writing campaign, and support from Patrick Stewart allowed this to happen during the third season.

Despite this, Gates McFadden often had to lobby the writers and producers for extra screen time and dialog, not only for her character but for Deanna Troi and other female characters. Writer and producer Jeri Taylor had much to do with the improvements to Crusher's character towards the end of TNG's run, giving her the opportunity to command the Enterprise in "Descent, Part II", eventually leading to her own command in the anti-time future of "All Good Things...". This development went largely ignored in the TNG films, except for during Star Trek: First Contact when Crusher appeared to act as the Enterprise's surrogate first officer during the Borg crisis.

Revy

22nd November 2009, 04:41

Actually, I wasn't thinking of TOS when I said that. I was referring to TNG which I suppose was heading on a more progressive direction. that was my theory. I should have made that clear, I already knew TOS was full of Cold War shit.

so....I agree with what you said there contrasting TOS with TNG.

Honggweilo

22nd November 2009, 17:07

You must have a screw loose to complain about "traditional gender roles, misogynistic portrayals of women" in the new series when half of TOS consisted of Captain Kirk's lameass womanizing machismo.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VuIShM5kAQ

(last 3 seconds) point taken :lol:

Honggweilo

22nd November 2009, 17:17

Actual labor issues involved in the the new series

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Bar_Association_%28episode%29

Rom (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Rom) collapses while working in Quark's (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Quark%27s). Rom is sent to the infirmary (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Infirmary) where Doctor (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Doctor) Bashir (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Julian_Bashir) finds that he has a severe ear infection that had been left unattended for weeks. When Bashir asks why, Rom says that he didn't have any vacation time. Bashir says casually that he should petition Quark (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Quark) to add vacation time and sick leave to the bar's employees by forming a union. Rom is discharged and when he recovers, he returns to the bar to find Quark in a meeting with the employees. The meeting is not good... the Bajoran Time of Cleansing (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Bajoran_Time_of_Cleansing) has sapped the bar's customer base and as a result, profits for the previous quarter are way down at Quark's. Quark decides to remedy his profit margin by cutting the employees' salaries by one-third. Rom pleads with Quark to reconsider the pay cut, and he does... but the decision stands. Rom then asks if the pay cuts will be re-instated after the Cleansing Festival ends. Quark says that it all depends on the next quarter's financial report. Rom asks Quark, as a brother, to grant him a personal favor and re-instate the employees' pay. Quark again says no and adds that they are not brothers at the bar. Their relationship is only employer and employee. Rom threatens that if Quark does not re-instate the pay cuts then he will regret it. Quark says that the only thing he regrets is not being an only child. Rom leaves in shock.
Jadzia Dax (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Jadzia_Dax) and Worf (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Worf) have returned from sparring in the holosuites (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Holosuite). Worf hears something in the conduits above the hallway. He hits a panel in the ceiling with his bat'leth (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Bat%27leth). The panel gives way, and a man falls to the floor with several items. Dax sees that the man has Worf's tooth sharpener (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tooth_sharpener) on his person – the man just robbed Worf's quarters (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Quarters). Angrily, Worf takes the man to Odo (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Odo)'s office. Odo arrests the man and has him taken to a holding cell. Worf intends to give his statement and demands to know why security lapses like these occur on DS9 (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Deep_Space_9). Odo says that those things just happen. Worf does not accept this answer and says that those sorts of things did not happen when he served as chief of security on the USS Enterprise-D (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Enterprise_%28NCC-1701-D%29). Odo perks up and says, "Really?" and pulls out a PADD (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/PADD) and begins to read a list of security lapses on the Enterprise. He says that he knows those are the exception rather than the rule, but if those sorts of things happen on the flagship of the Federation (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Federation), imagine how difficult it is to maintain security on an open port like DS9. Worf apologizes and says that the theft was upsetting. Odo agrees, but says that Worf will just have to get used to it.
Rom holds a secret meeting with the employees of the bar and says that he wants to form a union. Some of the employees, especially the Ferengi (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ferengi) employees, are shocked that Rom would even suggest forming a union. The Ferengi Commerce Authority (FCA) (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ferengi_Commerce_Authority) strictly forbids employees to form unions. Rom says not to be afraid of the FCA, to stand up and fight for what they want. Rom even names a few employees who could benefit from sick leave or vacation time. The employees finally agree to form the union and present their demands to Quark.
Rom goes to the infirmary and seeks Bashir's advice on unions. Bashir is surprised that Rom went to such an extreme, he was only speaking metaphorically. Chief (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Chief) O'Brien (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Miles_O%27Brien), who is being treated for a cyst on the back of his neck, encourages Rom and tells him about his ancestor, Sean O'Brien (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Sean_Aloysius_O%27Brien), who was a union miner back in 1902 Pennsylvania (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Pennsylvania). Sean and a group of employees went on strike (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Strike), refusing to open the mine until their demands were met. Dr. Bashir warns Rom to only strike as a last resort; perhaps Quark will give in to the union's demands. Chief O'Brien says that Quark is too stubborn and that the union will have to strike. O'Brien then makes the remark that Sean O'Brien gave the ultimate sacrifice for his union – he was found dead in the Allegheny River (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Allegheny_River) with 32 gunshot wounds in him (or was it 34?) Quark returns to the bar to find the union waiting for him. Quark thinks it is a birthday surprise; they're a month too late. Rom says that they are the Guild of Restaurant and Casino Employees (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Guild_of_Restaurant_and_Casino_Employees) and they are there to present their demands. Quark reads their demands and laughs. Rom says this is no joke. Quark says it is and to get back to work before he fires all of them. The Guild has no choice but to go on strike.
The strike begins and the union is thanking people for not dining at Quark's by handing out gold-pressed latinum (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Gold-pressed_latinum). To compensate for his lack of employees, Quark attempts to use a holographic program he received from a Lissepian (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Lissepian) to make holographic projections of himself to carry out all of the duties of the bar. Quark asks Odo to ask them to leave, telling him they must be violating a law somewhere. Odo agrees that he doesn't like the idea of a mob on the Promenade (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Promenade), but he has received orders from Captain (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Captain) Sisko (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Benjamin_Sisko) not to interfere as long as the strikers remain orderly and don't block the second level entrance. Meanwhile, on the upper level of the Promenade, Bashir and O'Brien are taking bets as to who will enter or pass the upper entrance of Quark's. They are surprised to find that Worf enters the bar... both Bashir and O'Brien thought Worf would not do so. They walk into the bar to have a word with the commander. Worf, Bashir, and O'Brien are then seen in one of Odo's holding cells. Bashir has a gash on his forehead. Captain Sisko angrily asks why members of his senior staff (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Senior_staff) were fighting on the Promenade. O'Brien and Worf explain that they weren't fighting, they just had a simple disagreement. Bashir says that he was trying to stop the fight. Sisko says that he heard that Bashir was thrown over a table. O'Brien says that Bashir just got in the way. Sisko, frustrated, says that he will have to talk to Quark himself to find an end to the strike. O'Brien asks the captain if they will be let go. Sisko agrees to tell Odo to let them out... in the morning. Bashir sits down and says that he hopes O'Brien and Worf are proud of themselves.
Quark is summoned to the captain's office. Sisko says that he sees the end to the strike as simple. In fact, Quark could get an agreement today if he went to talk to Rom. Quark says that Sisko doesn't understand; merely talking to a union violates the core aspects of Ferengi culture. Sisko says that he may not understand Ferengi culture, but he does know who holds the lease (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Lease) on Quark's – the Federation. The Federation was extremely lenient with Quark's rent, but that ends today. Sisko then reads off a list of things Quark owes – maintenance requests, the drain on the station's power supply – and asks how much latinum that is. Quark says that it is a lot and agrees to talk to his brother. Sisko says he is glad they're in agreement.
Quark goes to Rom's quarters and attempts to bribe him with latinum to get him to end the union. Rom refuses. Rom says that until the employees' demands are met, they will continue to strike.
Rom meets with the employees to tell them what had happened. Grimp (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Grimp), a Ferengi, asks if Rom took the bribe. Rom says no and tell the employees that it is only a matter of time before Quark gives into their demands. Grimp is reluctant to agree; Quark may agree too much with Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #211 (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Rules_of_Acquisition): Employees are the rungs on the ladder of success. Don't hesitate to step on them. The meeting is interrupted when the door is forced open. Enter Brunt (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Brunt), FCA liquidator, along with two Nausicaans (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Nausicaan). Frool (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Frool) grovels at Brunt's feet, asking for forgiveness. Brunt angrily says that if they were on Ferenginar (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ferenginar), the union would be shoved off the spire atop the Tower of Commerce (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tower_of_Commerce) one by one while small children would bet on where they would land, and then their splattered remains would be ground up into feed for gree-worms (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Razor-toothed_gree-worm). Rom points out that they aren't on Ferenginar; lucky for them, Brunt replies. Brunt says that the FCA will show mercy because they have been corrupted by Federation ideals. He says that nothing will happen to the union if they return to work the following morning. Otherwise, their families will be fined and their Ferenginar accounts will be seized, leaving them destitute. Brunt and the Nausicaans leave to make their decision, leaving Frool groveling on the floor. Grimp tells Frool to get up, but Rom tells him to stay down, that's where he belongs. The question is, where do the rest of them belong? The union decides to continue fighting for what they want and leave the room with Frool still on the floor. The strike continues.
Quark tries to talk to Rom once again to dissolve the union, but he refuses once again. Quark says Rom shouldn't be a fool, and now that the FCA is involved, they will do anything to stop him. Quark says that if Rom doesn't dissolve the union soon, Quark will no longer have any power to help him.
Worf talks to O'Brien and apologizes for the altercation they had in Quark's. O'Brien tells Worf not to worry about it, they shoved each other and – with a chuckle – Bashir was thrown over a table. Worf says that living on the station has bothered him. As a result, he is going to begin living on the Defiant (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Defiant_%28NX-74205%29).
Back in Quark's, the two Nausicaans were engaging in a Nausicaan pain game. Brunt is increasingly frustrated with the union's will. He says that he has to send a message to Rom. He can't punish Rom directly, since that would just turn Rom into a celebrated martyr. The only way to do this is to hurt someone close to him. Brunt couldn't stand to hurt Leeta (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Leeta) – she has such delicate lobes – so he decides for the next best thing... Quark.
Quark is in the infirmary on a bio-bed. Rom arrives to find that the Nausicaans shattered his left eye socket, fractured two of his ascending ribs, and punctured his lower lung. It was lucky that they didn't kill him. Rom says too bad, after all, Odo has Brunt and the Nausicaans in a holding cell and he has an open-and-shut case. Quark refuses to press charges; after all, the FCA would just send another liquidator to make an example of Rom. The next liquidator would definitely succeed. Rom refuses to dissolve the union until Quark accepts all of their demands. Quark finally relents and offers Rom everything that the union wants – but Rom must make it appear that Quark has won. Rom resigns from his post as head of the union; the union dies, but the employees get all they want. The pay raises will go into effect by the end of the week.
Worf settles into his quarters on the Defiant. Jadzia Dax gives Worf a gift: a copy of her favorite Klingon operas (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Klingon_opera).
The Bajoran Time of Cleansing is over, and everyone has returned to Quark's. Rom arrives in the bar in a Bajoran uniform and states that he is now on the night shift of the engineering crew as a Diagnostic and Repair Technician, Junior Grade (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Repair_Technician,_Junior_Grade). Quark expresses concern that he will no longer be able to "watch after" Rom, but Rom says that he will be fine working on his own. Furthermore, Rom promises to come to Quark's all the time, but as a paying customer, punctuated by then demanding his brother serve the drink he ordered.

"Workers of the World, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains."
- Rom

Honggweilo

22nd November 2009, 17:19

lol double post

Schrödinger's Cat

24th November 2009, 11:10

Call me a skeptic, but I don't think warrior women with bowling ball boobs hanging out from tight chain mail were walking around five hundred years ago either.

Das war einmal

24th November 2009, 17:03

i 2nd that

also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Online

MY LIFE WILL END ON FEBRUARY 5th!

Hah and you giving critique on World of Warcraft :p?

Das war einmal

24th November 2009, 17:07

I am not suprised that Bioware newest creation has a similar plot as their other games. Not that I haven't enjoyed KOTOR, Jade Empire and Mass Effect but it's getting very obvious at one point.

Honggweilo

24th November 2009, 18:56

edit: nevermind

Honggweilo

24th November 2009, 18:59

Hah and you giving critique on World of Warcraft :p?
Shut up, my critique on world of wankcraft is that it was never a decent MMO to begin with :rolleyes:

Das war einmal

24th November 2009, 21:39

Shut up, my critique on world of wankcraft is that it was never a decent MMO to begin with :rolleyes:

Lets hope you atleast don't have to pay a monthly fee then :lol:

Sasha

24th November 2009, 22:10

dragon age sucks?

if you refering to gay sex, yes it does: http://www.towleroad.com/2009/11/new-xbox-game-dragon-age-features-gay-sex-scene-pillow-talk.html#more

Das war einmal

24th November 2009, 22:24

dragon age sucks?

if you refering to gay sex, yes it does: http://www.towleroad.com/2009/11/new-xbox-game-dragon-age-features-gay-sex-scene-pillow-talk.html#more

They included a gay sex scene? That actually is quite progressive. (although you already could have a lesbian relation if you played a female character in Mass Effect)

khad

24th November 2009, 22:29

They included a gay sex scene? That actually is quite progressive. (although you already could have a lesbian relation if you played a female character in Mass Effect)
Unfortuntely, Zevran is a complete walking stereotype.

Das war einmal

24th November 2009, 22:42

Thats most of the time the case with games. Take Gears of War for example. I think you should not be to serious in cases like these.

Panda Tse Tung

24th November 2009, 22:42

You can have gay-sex in Fable, and Fable II. They we're WAY ahead of Dragon-Age.

bcbm

24th November 2009, 22:47

You can have gay-sex in Fable, and Fable II. They we're WAY ahead of Dragon-Age.

polyamory too.

Das war einmal

24th November 2009, 22:51

You can have gay-sex in Fable, and Fable II. They we're WAY ahead of Dragon-Age.

Oh yeah thats true, you could even go walking like a transvestite haha

cb9's_unity

25th November 2009, 06:06

To my knowledge you could have gay relationships in older Bioware games like Kotor and Jade Empire.

And while I haven't played the game lets just all remember that Dragon's Age is a world that unlike ours has the Supernatural and objectively evil forces. I'm not sure how well the Marxist analysis of history applies to a universe were supernatural forces actually can drive society in different ways and that great men can actually change history nearly by themselves.

Bioware have clearly created a universe that looks and acts very little like ours.

Yazman

25th November 2009, 06:12

I love Dragon Age, its a fucking brilliant game. Great story, some great characters.\

Also lol @ some people treating a game like this as some sort of politically valuable and analysable object. Get over yourselves, jesus christ.

CB9's_Unity, I completely agree with you.

Black Sheep

25th November 2009, 12:21

Also lol @ some people treating a game like this as some sort of politically valuable and analysable object. Get over yourselves, jesus christ.
exactly

Honggweilo

25th November 2009, 18:27

They included a gay sex scene? That actually is quite progressive. (although you already could have a lesbian relation if you played a female character in Mass Effect)
lol cmon, even the sims allowed gay sex. But then again, the sims doesnt aim at a macho targetgroup :p

bcbm

25th November 2009, 21:16

i wouldn't call people who play bioware rpgs "macho."

Das war einmal

26th November 2009, 10:44

lol cmon, even the sims allowed gay sex. But then again, the sims doesnt aim at a macho targetgroup :p

The sims is a digital dollhouse

Honggweilo

26th November 2009, 11:49

i wouldn't call people who play bioware rpgs "macho."
you'd be suprised