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Havet
13th November 2009, 21:45
Here's an interesting article. I would appreciate any comments people have regarding this. And please keep it honest.

Also, I won't be using Jazzratt's newly advertised spoiler tags in this first post, because it is the point of the thread to show this text. But for future references, including books or long articles that may be posted in the continuation of the debate, I will make sure to insert those tags.

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The "Left" In Left Libertarian

By Gary Chartier

I don’t think there's anything wrong-headed about other recent characterizations of the central concern of the left as anti-authoritarianism, openness to the future, or opposition to privilege. I want, though, to offer a different proposal regarding what I take to be the central elements of a leftist agenda and to suggest what may be a thread capable unifying these elements.

An authentically leftist position, I suggest, is marked by opposition to subordination, exclusion, and deprivation.

Subordination

One person, A, is subordinate to another, B, when B has significant, persistent power over A. The power involved may be physical, but it may also be economic, psychic, social, or cultural. The important thing is that B determines, to some meaningful degree, what A does. A is significantly un-free in relation to B, either because B can impose on A some cost that A is unwilling to bear or because A genuinely (but mistakenly) believes that B is entitled to determine the character of A’s conduct.

I assume here that subordination is presumptively morally objectionable. That, indeed, is part of what it means to adopt a position I would recognize as leftist. I do not seek to justify this presumption (perhaps that's a task for another post) nor to suggest how one could correctly identify cases in which it might rightly be defeated. I suspect that most of my readers do not like being subordinated, and might be inclined to accept this dislike as revelatory of something important. But my goal here is not to show them that they should.

Note that the question, Is there a relationship of subordination in a given case? doesn’t determine the answer to the question, If there is subordination in this case, what is the appropriate remedy? I emphasize this because many libertarians and anarchists adhere to what might be called the Principle of the Proportionality of Remedies (PPR). According to this principle, my using physical force against someone is appropriate only when defending myself against a physical threat posed by her to me or someone else; my infringing on her property rights apart from those in her body is appropriate only when defending myself against a threat posed by her to my non-bodily property rights. And so forth.

Someone who endorses the PPR may be nervous about the notion that subordination (or domination, or hierarchy—pick your favorite term here) might be exercised economically or psychically. Clearly delimiting subordination, so that the only sort with which one ought to be concerned is physical, provides a check on the use of force. By contrast, appearing to conflate different kinds of subordination runs the risk of justifying the use of force to respond to non-forcible exercises of influence.

But this worry is ill-founded, for several reasons. Among these:

(i) Physical force can be seen to underly many other forms of domination that do not themselves involve physical force. Persistent violence against women in a given social environment may lead to a climate of fear and submission on the part of many women, even in relationships with men who have not themselves behaved violently and might not threaten to do so or be inclined to do so. The knowledge that a strike might be broken through the use of violence might dispose workers in a morally objectionable work setting to avoid initiating the strike in the first place. And so on. An important aspect of objection to the subordination in these cases will be, precisely, objection to this background of physical violence.

(ii) More fundamentally still, someone who acknowledges that subordination comes in different forms need not maintain that all of these forms merit the same kind of remediation. Being on the left means being opposed to subordination, but it needn't mean supposing that all sorts of subordination should be dealt with in the same way. There is nothing inconsistent about holding both that workers in a given firm are dominated in a morally objectionable way by managers and that this morally objectionable domination does not on its own in any way justify the use of physical force against the managers. Acknowledging the reality of subordination as morally objectionable need not involve erasing moral differences among kinds of subordination or responses to them.

Exclusion

Some person, A, is excluded from a group when it is made clear that she does not belong to the group, that she is entitled neither to the material incidents of membership nor to the recognition as a fellow member (and respect) associated with belonging.

Unavoidably, some intimate relationships exclude: close friendships and monogamous partnerships are obvious examples. No credible leftist position will seek simply to eradicate the particularity of these relationships. And it can thus defend no bright-line rule regarding permissible and impermissible exclusion. Roughly, though, I think, it will want to offer at least two kinds of limits on morally permissible exclusion.

(i) It will want to say that, even when particular intimate sub-communities justly exclude someone—for the simple reason that they would cease to be the kinds of communities they are if they weren’t strictly limited in size—there is clearly room for her in the broader community of which they are components. She is clearly welcome there, clearly included there.

(ii) It will want to say that, when justifiable exclusion occurs, it ought not to reflect false beliefs about or unreasonable reactions to some group to which the excluded person belongs. Perhaps A acts reasonably in declining to marry B because of, say, important differences in the ways in which B and A understand the nature of marriage, differences which might emerge from B’s membership in a particular group with a tradition of viewing marital relationships in a certain way. But surely this is quite different from A’s declining to marry B either because of (a) the fact that certain visible members of B’s group hold beliefs about marriage, even if (1) A does not know that B holds these beliefs or (2) B credibly denies holding these beliefs or (b) A holds to a visceral prejudice against members of B’s group, believing, say, that cohabitation with a member of this group would render someone like A unclean.

A credibly leftist position, then, will oppose exclusion-in-general, treating as reasonable exceptions only (roughly) when they don’t involve exclusion from large, relatively impersonal, communities and relationships and only when they are not rooted in false beliefs or unreasonable reactions.

Again, it is important to emphasize that treating exclusion as morally objectionable does not determine what counts as an appropriate remedy for morally unjustifiable exclusion. I won’t repeat the points I made above with regard to subordination which are, in general, applicable here as well. It is not necessary to justify exclusion as reasonable or morally appropriate, all things considered, to object to the use of physical force as a remedy for exclusion.

Deprivation

A credible leftism will oppose deprivation.

Some person A experiences deprivation if she lacks the resources needed for (i) physical survival and health; (ii) clothing and shelter; and (iii) material circumstances that qualify as minimally dignified in accordance with the norms prevailing in her commnity.

To oppose deprivation in this sense is not so far to assign blame for anyone’s deprived condition. Nor is it—I repeat—to identify any particular remedy for deprivation as morally required or permitted. That is a separate question. A position is credibly leftist if it regards ignoring the deprivation of others as prima facie morally objectionable. But a position can reasonably be regarded as leftist while defending any of a wide range of responses to that deprivation as consistent with (or demanded by) prudence or justice, provided those responses can reasonably be regarded as effective, or likely to be so.

Vulnerability

A position qualifies credibly as a leftist position if it involves clear objection on moral grounds to subordinating people, excluding them from community membership, or tolerating their deprivation. I suggest that concern with subordination, exclusion, and deprivation can be seen as united by a concern with respect for and protection of people who are vulnerable—vulnerable to the power of those who dominate and exclude, vulnerable to the circumstances that lead to deprivation and the risks associated with being deprived. (More broadly, we might righly include within the concern for the vulnerable that animates positions credibly recognizable as leftist concern for those who suffer the direct violence of the state when it wages war, tortures, or, often, imprisons.)

The Range of Leftist Positions

Morally grounded opposition to subordination, exclusion, and deprivation, perhaps best seen as linked by a concern for the vulnerable, defines what I am inclined to argue is the minimum core of a leftist position. I do not mean to suggest that all those who might claim to be leftists would acknowledge just these commitments—the Stalinist or the Maoist seems unlikely to exhibit much in the way of concern for the particular vulnerable person. And I do not mean to deny that many of those associated with the left might go on to hold particular positions about the most effective or just ways of achieving leftist goals. Some might argue, for instance, that a position was not authentically leftist if it failed to involve recourse to the state or the use of physical force against persons to prevent subordination, exclusion, or deprivation. This seems to me to be a possible development of leftism, but not a necessary one. There is, at minimum, no reason why someone who supports the anarchist project of doing without state could not adopt a leftist position of the kind I have described.

I think it is clear that a market anarchist could be a leftist. Whether a market anarchist should be a leftist is, of course, another matter. Whether she should be will depend on what reasons warrant opposition to subordination, exclusion, and deprivation, and the consonance of those reasons with her reasons for endorsing market anarchism.

Source (http://liberalaw.blogspot.com/2008/12/left-in-left-libertarian.html)

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Let's get this party started.

IcarusAngel
14th November 2009, 01:08
Everybody has a general idea what 'left' means, even the right, although they generally distort it. Opposition to domination of man by man, egalitarianism, democracy, etc.

Market-Anarchism is just like Stalinism. Stalinism claimed it was going to bring democracy to all people - Stalin even claiming one party way was the ONLY way to democracy - but we know that it doesn't work in practice. In fact, Stalinism was designed for good purposes, whereas markets were DESIGNED - by states - for evil purposes, profits and property.

Adam Smith did suggest that markets could work, but he did NOT claim they were the 'path' to freedom, rather the reverse, that they could only work on the CONDITION of perfect equality. This is because Smith had a set of prerequisites for the market, whereas market anarchists just think markets take us to freedom, even though history proves other wise. (Smith favored regulations to combat market tyranny if they got out of hand in Book IV in WoN.) So you're not even on the Adam Smith level, yet.

And also like Stalinism, market-anarchists ultimately defend the institutions that crop up under markets, claiming that 'businesses' actually provide consumers with free-choice. Not only is this a bizare theory, it is demonstratably false.

Real anarchists advocate elimination of the market (see FAQ in my signature), and anarchists should exploit the current disatisfaction with markets. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/moving-francei-bbc-t121959/index.html).

You are just purposing failed Stalinist like solutions to real problems. Libertarian Left (most of whom are Miseans) are nothing other than Stalinists, but even worse since they pose a threat to genuine anarchism whereas Stalinism is dead.

Ex~
14th November 2009, 01:12
I do not see how this article is at all useful, because it is based entirely on the faulty Libertarian conception of things (Rights, Distrust, Optimism), which is truly shallow and worthless as any sot of normative theory to its very core. I don't mean it necessarily promotes these principles, but it is based on responding to these principles as if they are the foundation to be settled one way or another. I don't find that useful at all.

Rights, Distrust and Optimism (I take these three words from Andrew Koppelman) sum up the very basis of all Libertarian thought:

Rights: any intervention of the state or the plurality in an individual's personal choices is a violation of some natural individual right.

Distrust: the state is not to be trusted with shaping a better society.

Optimism: everything will work out for the best if only we let lassaiz-faire capitalism take over everyone's lives.


The principle feature of leftism in my opinion is Humanism, or better put: the elevation of humankind in its purest sense, self-affirming, life affirming, both recognizing and embracing of the incredibly power of human beings.

We see immediately that leftism is diametrically opposed to Libertarianism's three core features:

Rights: Humans are social beings, and thus there is no obvious conflict between "individual" and "collective", pure individuality is pure collectivism and vice versa.

Distrust: Humans are powerful, they can be trusted with their own fate as a society.

Optimism: Lassaiz-faire capitalism -- leaving everything to blind economic forces -- is enslaving of humans. We become subject to thoughtless markets, which are neither rational nor human.

IcarusAngel
14th November 2009, 01:26
Great points. We need more people pointing out the inherent humanism of leftism. It's no surprise already that many atheists/humanists are drawn to leftism, though some get diverted to Libertarianism (mainly because they are being lied to).

Leftism is more concerned with ideas, personal ownership, and other creative impulses than it is with property. If humans must make war, let them make it on non-human enemies (such as markets, perhaps, and other enemies of freedom), since human peace is necessary to freedom (this was purposed by some pragmatists as a solution to destructive human nature).

In a truly free society, where there was perfect equality and so on, people could still make decisions on how to produce goods. They may 'make mistakes' (just as our ancestors may have made some mistakes), but they would be theirs to make. It wouldn't be the fault of the 'corporations' or the 'government' in other words but our own human nature flaws.

That is why some forms of leftism are the purest forms of individualism imho.

Havet
14th November 2009, 11:34
Everybody has a general idea what 'left' means, even the right, although they generally distort it. Opposition to domination of man by man, egalitarianism, democracy, etc.

Market-Anarchism is just like Stalinism. Stalinism claimed it was going to bring democracy to all people - Stalin even claiming one party way was the ONLY way to democracy - but we know that it doesn't work in practice. In fact, Stalinism was designed for good purposes, whereas markets were DESIGNED - by states - for evil purposes, profits and property.

There have been examples of free-markets which were not designed by States. In fact, people have been trading stuff long before the current parliamentary democracy statist organization.


Adam Smith did suggest that markets could work, but he did NOT claim they were the 'path' to freedom, rather the reverse, that they could only work on the CONDITION of perfect equality. This is because Smith had a set of prerequisites for the market, whereas market anarchists just think markets take us to freedom, even though history proves other wise. (Smith favored regulations to combat market tyranny if they got out of hand in Book IV in WoN.) So you're not even on the Adam Smith level, yet.

Well, this is rather obvious. Where you have freedom, you'll have free markets. But just because there is a free-market doesn't mean people are free in all aspects. Freedom to trade is just a small part of many other freedoms.


And also like Stalinism, market-anarchists ultimately defend the institutions that crop up under markets, claiming that 'businesses' actually provide consumers with free-choice. Not only is this a bizare theory, it is demonstratably false.

Well, we already talked about this, and I agree that corporations are bad, but you need to understand that they would not arise from a free-market with other conditions i've mentioned (equality of opportunity, for eg)


Real anarchists advocate elimination of the market (see FAQ in my signature), and anarchists should exploit the current disatisfaction with markets. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/moving-francei-bbc-t121959/index.html).

Actually, "real" individualist anarchists support the free market, and are considered socialists, by the same FAQ you are mentioning (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secG1.html#secg11).


You are just purposing failed Stalinist like solutions to real problems. Libertarian Left (most of whom are Miseans) are nothing other than Stalinists, but even worse since they pose a threat to genuine anarchism whereas Stalinism is dead.

A quick trip about revleft should show you that stalinism is very well alive. Not that this matters anything. Your purposed analogy between stalinism and left libertarianism fails, by the reasons mentioned above, and I thought you were smart enough to realize that strawmans are a logical fallacy.

Havet
14th November 2009, 11:47
I do not see how this article is at all useful, because it is based entirely on the faulty Libertarian conception of things (Rights, Distrust, Optimism), which is truly shallow and worthless as any sot of normative theory to its very core. I don't mean it necessarily promotes these principles, but it is based on responding to these principles as if they are the foundation to be settled one way or another. I don't find that useful at all.

Rights, Distrust and Optimism (I take these three words from Andrew Koppelman) sum up the very basis of all Libertarian thought:

Rights: any intervention of the state or the plurality in an individual's personal choices is a violation of some natural individual right.

Distrust: the state is not to be trusted with shaping a better society.

Optimism: everything will work out for the best if only we let lassaiz-faire capitalism take over everyone's lives.


The principle feature of leftism in my opinion is Humanism, or better put: the elevation of humankind in its purest sense, self-affirming, life affirming, both recognizing and embracing of the incredibly power of human beings.

We see immediately that leftism is diametrically opposed to Libertarianism's three core features:

Rights: Humans are social beings, and thus there is no obvious conflict between "individual" and "collective", pure individuality is pure collectivism and vice versa.

Distrust: Humans are powerful, they can be trusted with their own fate as a society.

Optimism: Lassaiz-faire capitalism -- leaving everything to blind economic forces -- is enslaving of humans. We become subject to thoughtless markets, which are neither rational nor human.

Actually I didn't see any mentioning of natural rights. Most left libertarians and market anarchists have abandoned deontological arguments due to them being, well, false, or at least not objectively demonstrable.

The reason why they oppose state action is because the arguments for state action are based on stupid arguments that, once taken to their logical extremes, prove how those arguments are useless and dangerous.

Regarding distrust, so you think humans can't be trusted with their own fate? But this assumes economic planning, and if society is planned , THAT IS NOT an ANARCHIST or FREE society to me.

In a planned system , you need planners and those who follow the plan, hence two difference classes, hence the whole "stateless classless" communist plan goes down the drain.

Regading optimism, most left libertarians don't have faith in the economic forces in laissez-faire capitalism or free market capitalism, because while the market is freer, it doesn't address some of the more intrinsic problems of capitalism. Hence the whole "free-market anti-capitalist" slogan left libertarians and market anarchists usually advocate.

A real free market is the most rational and humane form of social organization possible, and it sure as hell isn't thoughtless.

Zanthorus
14th November 2009, 18:44
There have been examples of free-markets which were not designed by States. In fact, people have been trading stuff long before the current parliamentary democracy statist organization.

Where?


Well, this is rather obvious. Where you have freedom, you'll have free markets. But just because there is a free-market doesn't mean people are free in all aspects. Freedom to trade is just a small part of many other freedoms.

Markets have costs that aren't registered by prices like the raping of the enironment. The only 'free' economies are ParEcon and gift economies since they give people control over decisions that affect them rather than subjecting them to the ebb and flow of market forces.


In a planned system , you need planners and those who follow the plan

There is no need for a dichotomy between planner and planned. Everyone can be a planner.


hence the whole "stateless classless" communist plan goes down the drain.

Communism is based on gift economies not planned economies (To the best of my understanding. Maybe this isn't the case for non anarchist communism's?)

Havet
15th November 2009, 00:23
Where?

Well it's pretty obvious. Since the beginning of time Man has traded commodities such as food or live animals with other people, using exchange currencies such as shells or precious rocks.

Anyway, if you're looking for some historical examples, check Medieval Iceland (http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Iceland/Iceland.html), the American Old West (http://invisiblemolotov.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/wild-west3.pdf) and Early Pennsylvania (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard81.html).


Markets have costs that aren't registered by prices like the raping of the enironment. The only 'free' economies are ParEcon and gift economies since they give people control over decisions that affect them rather than subjecting them to the ebb and flow of market forces.

Sure, raping the environment is not a factored cost in most business transactions. Do you know why?

The pollution problem exists because certain things, such as the air or the ocean, are not property, private or public, individual or collective. Anyone who wishes to use them ar garbage dumps is free to do so. If the pollution were done to something that belonged to someone, the owner would permit it only if the pollutor were willing to pay him more than the damage done. If the pollutors themselves owned the property they were polluting, it would pay them to stop if the damage they did were greater than the cost of avoiding it; few of us want to dump our garbage in our own front lawns.

One could, for instance, adopt the principle that people living along a river have a "property right" in the river itself and that anyone who lowers the value of the river to them by polluting it (say, a factory for eg), without first getting their consent, is liable to suit. Similar rules already exist in water-poor areas to define the "rights" of landholders to use up, in irrigation, rivers that run through their land, which they don't own.


There is no need for a dichotomy between planner and planned. Everyone can be a planner.

Yes, yes...I'm sure they can...


Communism is based on gift economies not planned economies (To the best of my understanding. Maybe this isn't the case for non anarchist communism's?)

And I can demonstrate how "free" "communist" "gift economies" can lead to planned economies using Dejavu's "Ivan and the Toaster" argument, if he gives me permission to use it. :)

PRC-UTE
15th November 2009, 00:48
And I can demonstrate how "free" "communist" "gift economies" can lead to planned economies using Dejavu's "Ivan and the Toaster" argument, if he gives me permission to use it. :)

This is all very abstract.

Dejavu
15th November 2009, 01:01
And I can demonstrate how "free" "communist" "gift economies" can lead to planned economies using Dejavu's "Ivan and the Toaster" argument, if he gives me permission to use it.

Sure go ahead, knock yourself out :)

Havet
15th November 2009, 01:15
This is all very abstract.

Ok, I got confirmation of the permission (not that it was needed), here it goes:



IVAN AND THE TOASTER ARGUMENT aka ALL ROADS LEAD TO CENTRAL PLANNING

By Dejavu

The argument assumes a hypothetical socialist economy ( within an anarchist setting of course), so its mainly posed to anarchists (the statist socialists would simply be ok with using force so that's autofail).

The idea is that you look at it from the point of view of 'Ivan' a member of the commune and we assume no such thing as a toaster even exists (i.e. has not been invented yet)

So then he invents it

So ivan has his little commune duties, i let the socialist pick the job for ivan.

According to most ansocs , ivan will get to pick his job at a workers council meeting, something to the effect of biding for it. Neverminding the problems with that, i give all passes to ansocs to allow them to even start an economy, so we can focus on ivan.

So ivan in his off time is fidling around with his stuff ( posessions), and he happens to configure the stuff he does have into a pretty efficient toaster, something to make his bread hot and crunchy. He got the idea from watching others in the commune toast their bread over a fire, but nobody ever thought of an industrial toaster yet.

All he knows is that people like hot , crunchy bread with butter on it (including himself obviously)

So ivan after like 6 months of his off time , finally completed this toaster, and he invites friends over (neighbors) and he's like , check this shit out

And people are like damn, that's fucking awesome. Pretty soon it becomes rather popular around the commune that ivan has a toaster. People come to ivan's house all the time and ivan gets no privacy really because so many people want to use his toaster

People start asking ivan to make them one. Ivan is like, i'd love to but this took me six months and i'd like to enjoy it for a bit instead of spending all of my off time making toasters.

Ivan decides to be a nice guy and starts handing out blueprints to his toaster. Basically what it takes to build one, and people are like gee thanks ivan, some people are able to replicate it , after 4-6 months of work on their off time.

But a lot of people are like , ivan, im not really mechanical, i really don't know how this all comes together, and ivan is like , i'd love to let everyone use my toaster but people are coming over all the time , i don't even get privacy.

Ivan knows he can't restrict the use of the toaster, but he doesn't just want to give it away to someone , not after all the hard work he put into it , he made it only because he wants to enjoy the toast

Intelligent question (by hayenmill): isnt his toaster possession? certainly he can restrict its use?

Answer: well , ivan thought so, but pretty soon there are some minor quibblings going around in the commune.

SOME people have a toaster , including ivan

Others do not

Meaning its much more inconveniant for them to make toast compared to the people who benefit from using the toaster. More and more people without a toaster start demanding toasters.

The first question to ask a Communist is:

Is the toaster a capital good?

Most reply no , offhand, until it is explained that the toaster is used to make other products that people want (people don't want a toaster per say , but an item capable of making better and faster toast) and why should SOME people have much better toast than others?

What do you do if the trend catches on and most of the workers demand toasters?

Then, a communist would anser: this is a simple matter , simply bring it up at the workers councils that we should produce enough toasters for everyone to have. Problem solved.

Of course, that's where the problems just begin

Most communists agree that the workers councils are organizing labor to meet the needs of the community. This means just enough food is being produced , just enough clothing , electricity.

Remember , no profit , just enough surplus to satiate the people, but now you have to also throw into there the mass production of toasters.

If workers are pulled off of other tasks to make toasters , that means that much less productivity of the other stuff, and who gets pulled off? they need some engineers to design the machinery capable of making the toasters as well as the toasters. They need to divert other resources into toaster production which means less for other things.

How is it ensured that enough steel will be available for automobiles if you also have to divert the production resources into other uses like toasters?

The councils have only several options:

- they have to take a more dominate role in overseeing production
workers either have to work longer hours on the other stuff
- or , toasters are deemed by the council to be too much of a non-necessity

But then what do you do with the inequality already existing between toaster holders and non toaster holders?

The point is, just something like toasters can throw the whole ansoc utopian economy totally out of whack. More precisely , the reality of scarcity.

Eventually if the economy must be planned, then the society must be planned as an extention. Economies and societies are always linked, and in a planned system , you need planners and those who follow the plan.

They might even find people who are capable of making the toaster line but what if those people are like ' i'm a car engineer , i want to stick to cars.'

Is the council going to democratically vote him to do work he'd rather not do? They could say ' then we'll teach new engineers.'

But again you're sucking away from your vitally needed pool of labor.

The engineers have to divert some of their time and resources into teaching students , as populatin increases , labor needs to be evenly distributed across all areas to compensate its planning.

If society is planned , THAT IS NOT an ANARCHIST or FREE society to me

hence: epic fail

IcarusAngel
15th November 2009, 04:51
Well it's pretty obvious. Since the beginning of time Man has traded commodities such as food or live animals with other people, using exchange currencies such as shells or precious rocks.

Yah but it is not 'obvious' that these societies had any concept of your version of 'property rights.'



Anyway, if you're looking for some historical examples, check Medieval Iceland (http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Iceland/Iceland.html), the American Old West (http://invisiblemolotov.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/wild-west3.pdf) and Early Pennsylvania (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard81.html).

Those are supposed versions of 'anarcho-capitalism,' not the 'market anarchism' you claim to uphold. Furthermore, Iceland was a tribal society that had many features that violated the principles of capitalism.

Here is proof that it was NOT anarcho-capitalist:
https://hackbloc.org/etc/anarchoFAQ/secF9.html

The American old west isn't any type of society modern people would want to live in either (it was also not 'anarcho-capitalist'), whereas anarcho-socialist societies were at least functioning, free and progressive.


Actually, "real" individualist anarchists support the free market, and are considered socialists


It also says they opposed landed monopolies, rent, and capital, the very things you are now claiming to support.

Pick a lie and stick with it.

Agnapostate
15th November 2009, 10:17
I don't find the toaster analogy particularly impressive. There's no sound reason for expropriation of a commodity resource, but if the analogy instead incorporated a necessity, it would be less likely that any necessity could be produced by individual possessions rather than collective resources, and moreover, there wouldn't be a refusal to engage in active development of this resource on the part of rational persons if it was so critically needed.

Havet
15th November 2009, 12:36
Yah but it is not 'obvious' that these societies had any concept of your version of 'property rights.'

strawman - I never mentioned any similarities between those earlier societies and today's society, especially regarding property rights.


Those are supposed versions of 'anarcho-capitalism,' not the 'market anarchism' you claim to uphold. Furthermore, Iceland was a tribal society that had many features that violated the principles of capitalism.

strawman - I wasn't defending capitalism, so the fact that those "tribal societies" didn't have some capitalistic characteristics is completely irrelevant.


Here is proof that it was NOT anarcho-capitalist:
https://hackbloc.org/etc/anarchoFAQ/secF9.html

strawman - proving it was not anarcho-capitalist does't mean its not a viable example of the outcome of a real free-market.


The American old west isn't any type of society modern people would want to live in either (it was also not 'anarcho-capitalist'), whereas anarcho-socialist societies were at least functioning, free and progressive.

strawman - pretending that it was anarcho-socialist rather than "anarcho"-capitalist doesn't mean it wasn't a free market society (http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-anarcho-socialist-t116765/index.html?t=116765).


It also says they opposed landed monopolies, rent, and capital, the very things you are now claiming to support.

Strawman - where have I supported landed monopolies? Where have I supported the status quo that makes renting inevitable?

Like I said in my Anarcho-Socialis thread:

"Rents, mortage payments and credit debts would undergo an overall decrease and home ownership would become more accessible to the average working person. Greater accessibility to land resulting from the elimination of federal government and agribusiness related land monopolies and the application of the homesteading principle (or other principles) would result in the revival of traditional family farms. Similarly, a lowered cost of living would reduce the need for two-income households thereby reviving traditional households and increasing the degree of attentiveness of parents to children."


Pick a lie and stick with it.

http://galatiansc4v16.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/strawman2.jpeg