Hippies...

[Rusty Shackleford]

Ok, besides the almost excessive predominance of drug culture within the hippie culture; i know they tried to make some communes and stuff but how strong was the anti-capitalist feeling within the hippie culture?

[GPDP]

I'm sure many hippies back then did possess anti-capitalist feelings. Now, whether those feelings translated into something genuinely progressive is debatable, never mind their effectiveness.

Modern hippies, however, appear by and large to be societal dropouts more than anything.

And then there's hippie-wannabes like my cousin, who thinks all we need is love, hugs, and music to set things right in the world. And by world, he means the planet. People can apparently fuck off.

[Parker]

Hippie-ism was/is more a lifestyle than a political movement. Hippies weren't anti-capitalist as such. What they rejected was mass society, mass culture, mass consumption, etc. They just wanted to be different, man.

Of course this just turned out to be the biggest marketing opportunity in history.

[Holden Caulfield]

I know this is learning and I should be helpful but: fuck hippies.

Most of them are idiots, i know a few who lecture me for not buying all my clothes second hand and for not boycotting everything under the sun, as if boycotts will destory the system that necessitates them:rolleyes:

Fuck them most of them are very petit-bourgeois (in mind-set if nothing else) as well. oh and they need a hair cut as well

[Rusty Shackleford]

ah ok i get the picture.

what a waste of time this hippies were

[RadioRaheem84]

Agreed. Hippies are the worst. I mean, I don't want to totally hate on them because some of them are genuinely nice people but their whole drug culture, free love, spaced out movement almost ruined the political struggle of the 60s.

Most of those hippies grew up and became yuppies anyways. The only things they care about now are environmental causes because they generally hate people. A lot of them are probably liberal douche bags that support mainstream Democrats and are just as rabid against opposition toward them as the right wing radio hosts.

[NecroCommie]

Next weekend I am going to a nearby green commune to a birthday of some nice gals I bumped into at a halloween party. Hippies are nice enough, way more moral and aware of the society than a mainstream apathetic kid from the suburbs. They are very much potential communists, and no-one here should dismiss the simply because of their naive belief in lifestylism. Actually, pretty much all the counter-cultures are fertile ground for class-consciousness according to my experience. If they were happy with the society they would just go with the flow.

Besides, they are definately not dropouts of society, which is demonstrated by the fact that the memebers of that commune populate our university in moderate numbers. Can't be very dropout to reach university, even in finland.

[VeganLiz]

I think it's unfair to stereotype hippies. They don't have any set beliefs so it's hard to really say how they feel about capitalism.

I don't discriminate against hippies...(I've noticed a lot of people on here do discriminate against hippies, vegans, etc which is pretty childish)...but I have noticed that most hippies are for peace. I don't think there's anything wrong with being peaceful. If we were all peaceful we would live in a better world.

However, I do think that being passive can also be very distructive. Derrick Jensen gives a talk on pacifism, a really great talk that you can find on youtube but I can't post the link because I don't have enough posts. He puts it better than I ever could.

[Hit The North]

Agreed. Hippies are the worst. I mean, I don't want to totally hate on them because some of them are genuinely nice people but their whole drug culture, free love, spaced out movement almost ruined the political struggle of the 60s.



Except that "free love" and "drug culture" were essential platforms of the political struggles of the 1960s.


The only things they care about now are environmental causes because they generally hate people.


This is just stupid, as if the environment and the people were mutually exclusive. People who care about the environment are less likely to be people haters than those who despoil and dump on the environment and thereby degrade the living conditions of those who live in that environment.

[Comrade B]

The problems I have with the hippie movement is that in the modern world, it tends to be bankrupt of any morals aside from wording.
I have met a republican who claims they are a hippie.
They tend to be preachy and consider themselves better than those who have not transcended caring about world issues.

The reason why they often take on environmentalism is because you sound ridiculous when you criticize it.

I don't hate hippies or anything like that. I have met a couple of decent, very hippieish people, a few consider themselves anarchists, and seem to be politically involved. It often feels like a fashion statement or celebration of drugs though, rather than any real movement.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Yes, I get really tired of hippies here in the bay area - but also hipsters and bike-fetishists too so, it's just one more holier than thou subculture around here.

As to the original question: I think anti-capitalism was the pre-dmoninent sentiment amongst original hippies. The focus for the lifestyle for them was "dropping out" of "bourgeois life" whereas today i think if you asked most neo-hippies, they would say it's about 'belonging" and having "community". Also I read something by a babyboomer recently where he said that what people call hipsters today are more like the original hippies whereas what people today call "hippie" is really more dead-head (hacky-sacks, dreds, music festivals). It's an interesting distinction I think. From what I've read from yippies and other 60s counter-cultural people, I'd say that the closest modern analogue to 60s hippies would be lifestyle anarchists: they generally don't like the system, war, and so on, but also don't have a clue or even an interest in doing something about it in a meaningful way.

But the hippies are just a reflection of the times they are hippie-ing around in. Hippies were against the system in the 60s not because of their drugs, culture, or music, but because many many young people were radicalizing and turning against the system. The establishment tried to link LSD, rock and soul music, and hippies with radicalism because they wanted to make radical ideas seem "alien" to the rest of society.

The proof of my theory is modern hippies: without a general anti-capitalist sentiment among youth, many hippies today are wannabe "entrepreneurs" or tech-hippies making web-companies or green-hippies selling some "green-capitalist" product or technology.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yes, I get really tired of hippies here in the bay area - but also hipsters and bike-fetishists too so, it's just one more holier than thou subculture around here.

Hipsters are the worst. The liberalism of today's youth is part beatnik, part bourgeoisie, totally pretentious.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Hipsters are the worst. The liberalism of today's youth is part beatnik, part bourgeoisie, totally pretentious.

I think if there's a silver-lining to the economic crisis, it's the end of that era of youth culture. If young people hated trust-fund Brooklyn hipsters before, now it's really on.

I'm optimistic about all the garage and punk rock that's coming out now in California and I'm still waiting for hip hop to re-emerge from its slumber. Bad economy, a music industry that's about to fall apart = good music. I hope music is like the early 90s all over again.

[RadioRaheem84]

I think if there's a silver-lining to the economic crisis, it's the end of that era of youth culture. If young people hated trust-fund Brooklyn hipsters before, now it's really on.

I'm optimistic about all the garage and punk rock that's coming out now in California and I'm still waiting for hip hop to re-emerge from its slumber. Bad economy, a music industry that's about to fall apart = good music. I hope music is like the early 90s all over again.


Yeah I've always preferred the ska, punk, activist scene of California to the pretentious hipster scene of Williamsburg and Lower Manhattan. Then again even before my activist days I've preferred music like Rage, Manu Chao (France), Mano Negra, Chili Peppers and Sublime over The Strokes, and the Yeah Yeah Yeahs.

[Holden Caulfield]

Hipsters are the worst. The liberalism of today's youth is part beatnik, part bourgeoisie, totally pretentious.

I hate the BoBos too
(Bohemian Bourgeois)

[Jimmie Higgins]

I hate the BoBos too
(Bohemian Bourgeois)

They're something to denounce (http://www.revleft.com/vb/denounce-you-want-t122362/index.html?t=122362).

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Ok, besides the almost excessive predominance of drug culture within the hippie culture; i know they tried to make some communes and stuff but how strong was the anti-capitalist feeling within the hippie culture?

There was no anti-capitalist feeling within the hippy movement. They were liberals. Anti-consumerism was their thing.

[RadioRaheem84]

I hate the BoBos too
(Bohemian Bourgeois)


It seems that bourgeois element of glam has penetrated most sectors of music and fashion lately. It's funny when you once grunge punk celebs attending fashion shows and carrying Louis Vuitton bags.

The only musician I know that's pretty much stayed "punk" is Manu Chao.

[x359594]

It seems to me that the term "hippie" refers to a specific historical era, in the US from about 1964 to 1973. Wouldn't it be more accurate to describe self-styled present day "hippies" as neo-hippie or post-hippie? Ceratainly the life-stle choices are no longer the same.

Radio Raheem mentioned the word "beatnik". That term was derogatory word said to have been coined by Herb Caen late columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle. It combines "beat" with the "-nik" of Sputnik. The FBI considered the Beats subversive and dangerous to the American way of life, and the corporate media heaped scorn and ridicule on them.

[RadioRaheem84]

It seems to me that the term "hippie" refers to a specific historical era, in the US from about 1964 to 1973. Wouldn't it be more accurate to describe self-styled present day "hippies" as neo-hippie or post-hippie? Ceratainly the life-stle choices are no longer the same.

Radio Raheem mentioned the word "beatnik". That term was derogatory word said to have been coined by Herb Caen late columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle. It combines "beat" with the "-nik" of Sputnik. The FBI considered the Beats subversive and dangerous to the American way of life, and the corporate media heaped scorn and ridicule on them.

Why did everything different have to somehow be connected to the USSR? Were Americans that sure of their superiority (or had a serious inferiority complex) that anything counter culture must not have come from within but from abroad?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Why did everything different have to somehow be connected to the USSR? Were Americans that sure of their superiority (or had a serious inferiority complex) that anything counter culture must not have come from within but from abroad?

Well, they did have goatees like Lenin and Malcolm X. They also wore berets and stripped shirts like the "stinkin' French" - of course 60s cold war establishment types hated them!:laugh:

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Well, they did have goatees like Lenin and Malcolm X. They also wore berets and stripped shirts like the "stinkin' French" - of course 60s cold war establishment types hated them!:laugh:

But that was just the stereotype they created. As you explain it now it is very understandable why they created such an image.

[x359594]

Why did everything different have to somehow be connected to the USSR?...

The Beats as a movement emerged during the Eisenhower phase of the Cold War. Many were part of various anti-establishment social movements such as the Ban the Bomb movement, the Civil Rights movement, Fair Play for Cuba, anti-HUAC movement, not to mention advocating tolerance for inter-racial sexual relations and homosexuality, decriminalizing pot and treating drug addiction as a treatable illness rather than a crime. All of this was horrifying to the US ruling class, and it served the interests of waging the Cold War to attribute it all to Soviet subversion.

[mikelepore]

The middle to late 1960s were a time when many things changed quickly. Young people had a new interest in paranormal subjects, Atlantis, astrology, astral projection, etc., and their parents told them they were crazy. The invention of the birth control pill had recently introduced a distinction between sexual activity and reproduction, but traditional religion said that to use that pill was evil. Satellite television links became available just in time to show bloody battles of the Vietnam war on the six o'clock news every night. The government was jailing young people in huge numbers for smoking pot, under new laws that were loudly appauded by parents who stood there with a cigarette in one hand and liquor in the other hand. It was considered revolutionary that Star Trek had a black woman among the cast and she wasn't a maid or a housekeeper. The space program made a lot of people ask, "If people can go to the moon, why can't we end poverty?" A Harvard psychologist made speeches about a new drug would enable anyone to see God instantly. There were collisions among so many cultural trends at the same time. It was perceived that everything was changing rapidly and right now. The hippie phenomenon was a temporarily reflection of that time of general upheaval. What was missing was an effective plan to change the world. The desire was intense, but there was no plan. That made it seem as though "dropping out" was the means that they were looking for.

[x359594]

But that was just the stereotype they created. As you explain it now it is very understandable why they created such an image.

That was a stereotype foisted upon them and taken up by wannabees later on.

The actual Beat movement germinated between 1944 and 1947. It first publicly surfaced in 1952 with the publication of an article in the New York Times Magazine called "This is the Beat Generation" by John Clellon Holmes. Holmes was a friend of Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg and published the first novel that took the Beats as its subject, Go. Kerouac had already written On the Road before Holmes wrote Go but "Road" didn't see publication until 1957.

The Beats remained an underground phenomena until the publication and censorship trial of Allen Ginsberg's poem Howl and Other Poems in 1956-57. In September of 1957 On the Road was published, and the media was all over the Beats. The FBI opened a file on Ginsberg and his publisher Lawrence Ferlinghetti in 1956. J. Edgar Hoover was denouncing the Beats and "International Communism" as the greatest threats facing the United States at the end of the 1950s.

The corporate media/US establishment anti-Beat campaign lasted from 1957 to 1962. It included drug busts, obscenity trials and morals trials; the portrayal of the Beats by the media as drug addicts, rapists, homosexuals, communists, thieves and slackers. It was during the period 1959-1962 that stereotyped goateed beret wearing beatnik caricature appeared. People who joined the Beat movement at that time took on this look while the original Beats left the country for Europe, Asia and Africa or went back underground.

Enter the hippies in 1964.

[NoMore]

The same thing happened to the punk culture as the hippie culture... It meant something genuine in the beginning but a few people just bought into it as a fad and it got capitalized.

The hippie movement started off as an anarchist/communist movement. It was a counterculture and drugs like LSD,Mushrooms,and cannabis were apart of it. I could go on and on about how LSD expands the mind and expel all of the myths associated with it but I'll stay on topic. Some people started to look at this as a fad and bought into it and the mainstream saw this and decided to use the hippie image make a profit. Drug dealers saw that people were looking for ways to get high so they introduced drugs like heroin, cocaine and speed. So therefore the movement became a fad and the real hippies just gave up and became the modern day liberals.

[Vanguard1917]

This is just stupid, as if the environment and the people were mutually exclusive. People who care about the environment are less likely to be people haters

In reality, of course, virtually every single environmentalist organisation today has an explicitly anti-human policy at its very centre: the Malthusian demand for population controls -- a libel against the human race, to paraphrase Marx, and a reactionary and cowardly policy, to paraphrase Lenin.

Therefore, yes, in the real world, this 'caring about the environment' you talk about goes very much hand in hand with contempt for people.

[ReggaeCat]

oh com on....hippies...rastas.....rockabillies...i mean....that other side of the world(i live in europe) brought us some pretty good musical trends....as for hippies...
what's wrong for saying you need peace and love??
what's wrong of going like naked everyhwhere just to shock people?
what's wrong of not loving society and still loving humans...
still dont agree with drugs and stuff...but that goddamn pychedelic rock at the 70's blow you out...:)...after all who says that alongside with commies,anarchists,and every other left wing organizations comes the hippies??the hippies were a trend a lifestyle and ment to act a very good role in the anti vietnam war stuggle that happened all over the world...still...it wasnt enough to make mom america to come out of vietnam.

[Hit The North]

In reality, of course, virtually every single environmentalist organisation today has an explicitly anti-human policy at its very centre: the Malthusian demand for population controls -- a libel against the human race, to paraphrase Marx, and a reactionary and cowardly policy, to paraphrase Lenin.

Therefore, yes, in the real world, this 'caring about the environment' you talk about goes very much hand in hand with contempt for people. (Bold added)

For it to be explicit, you'd need to find statements from "every single environmentalist organisation" to the effect that they are anti-human. Bet you can't.

That aside, Vanguard, do you think the environment needs defending from the ravages of capitalism or do you think corporate interests should have carte blanche to do what they want?

[Vanguard1917]

(Bold added)

For it to be explicit, you'd need to find statements from "every single environmentalist organisation" to the effect that they are anti-human. Bet you can't.

Name me an environmentalist organisation of any significance that does not support population controls. In reality, virtually all environmentalist organisations today support population controls and Malthusian theory, i.e. the theory which Marx correctly called a libel against humanity.

Thus, the person who said that environmentalists don't like people certainly had a point.


That aside, Vanguard, do you think the environment needs defending from the ravages of capitalism or do you think corporate interests should have carte blanche to do what they want?

Of course i support policies to make our environment better suited to human beings (which, for me, most centrally involves policies that will help bring about needed economic development worldwide, something which capitalism has utterly failed to do). But that does not mean that i have anything in common with environmentalism, which, as we have seen, sees the existence of humanity itself as the problem.

[Zanthorus]

Name me an environmentalist organisation of any significance that does not support population controls. In reality, virtually all environmentalist organisations today support population controls and Malthusian theory, i.e. the theory which Marx correctly called a libel against humanity.

Thus, the person who said that environmentalists don't like people certainly had a point.

Of course i support policies to make our environment better suited to human beings (which, for me, most centrally involves policies that will help bring about needed economic development worldwide, something which capitalism has utterly failed to do). But that does not mean that i have anything in common with environmentalism, which, as we have seen, sees the existence of humanity itself as the problem.

I agree with this. 'Environmentalism' is a pseudo-malthusian doctrine espoused by the ruling classes to make them appear 'progressive'. Social Ecology is the way to go.

As for Hippies I don't really know that much about them and to be frank I don't really care. They didn't achieve much in the way of social revolution so I don't see it as that relevant really.

[Hit The North]

Name me an environmentalist organisation of any significance that does not support population controls.


I'm not interested in defending any major environmentalist organisations. Neither would I deny the implicit Malthusian conclusions of many of their ideas. Nevertheless, support for "population control" is no more necessarily anti-human than contraception or abortion. Moreover, the economic development you support below has, as we know, the effect of slowing population growth.


Of course i support policies to make our environment better suited to human beings (which, for me, most centrally involves policies that will help bring about needed economic development worldwide, something which capitalism has utterly failed to do). But that does not mean that i have anything in common with environmentalism, which, as we have seen, sees the existence of humanity itself as the problem.

Do you have anything in common with them when they agitate and organise against the ravages of capitalist production when it despoils and pollutes people's environment?

[Zanthorus]

Nevertheless, support for "population control" is no more necessarily anti-human than contraception or abortion..

Contraception and abortion are things decided on by the parents/mother of a child. Population control is something forced on them. Supporting contraception and abortion shows that you acknowledge people's right to choose wether or not they want to bring a child into the world. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to support it. Population control means you actively oppose bringing children into the world.

[chegitz guevara]

Where's the best place to hide your money from a hippie?

Under the soap.

How can you tell if a hippie's been in your fridge?

It's empty.

How can you tell if a hippie's been in your flat?

He's still there.

[heylelshalem]

i consider myself a bohemian/hippie. I mean i like classic rock and a lot of what the hippie movement was supposed to be about. There were a LOT of socialist involved with the counterculture at that time. Probably the most infamous is abbie hoffman.

I think the sad fact is that there were two seperate crowds within the "hippie" meme. A lot of the lifestyle was for the real hippies was to return back to a simpler way of living and without all the material hangups and consumerism.
Essentially rejecting the pig mentality..and working towards trying to spread the wealth equally to the working class.

I had lived in a commune once and it was named "tolstoy" after a famous red.
There was definately two scenes to the original hippie scene...those sheep who only were in it for the drugs and sex..and those who took their politics more seriously. The original "hippies" were the "yippies" who's philosophy was basically a reaction to all the consumerism that the corporations push on people.

The whole neo-hippie thing kinda pisses me off. Theres this whole group of people who i call granolas and trustafarians who dress and act like "hippies" but are still stuck in their burgeois mentalitys..no real different then the asshole hipsters. True bohemianism should not tolerate elite-ism and exclusion.

[Vanguard1917]

I'm not interested in defending any major environmentalist organisations. Neither would I deny the implicit Malthusian conclusions of many of their ideas. Nevertheless, support for "population control" is no more necessarily anti-human than contraception or abortion.

The environmentalist assumption that the very existence of the masses themselves is destroying the planet, and that the way to solve environmental problems is to discourage the masses from breeding, is not anti-human? It's not a 'libel against the human race'?



Do you have anything in common with them when they agitate and organise against the ravages of capitalist production when it despoils and pollutes people's environment?


No, i don't, because i see the alternatives they propose as backward and to be opposed. To give you a taste: i support bio-technology, industrialised agriculture, nuclear energy, vivisection, airport expansions, urbanisation, building on green belts, getting rid of the artificial division between town and country by developing the latter, the developing world having living standards at least as high as those in the West (something which environmentalists unashamedly claim is impossible: if people in Africa and Asia were to have the same living standards as us in the West, we would need five planets, etc.), increasing living standards in the West, and so on. I believe that my views, and those of Marxism, are more often than not diametrically opposed to those of environmentalism today.

[RED DAVE]

Let me lay out the hippie thing as I understand it and as I lived alongside it. I was a student at NYU in Greenwich Village from 1960 to 1967, and I lived on the Lower East Side (East Village; one of the two main centers of hippiedom: the other was the Haight-Ashbury section of San Francisco) from 1964 to 1969. I was (and am) an active revolutionary socialist.

Eat your hearts out. :D

The hippies definitely represented a response to the ongoing capitalist crises of the 60s: the Cold War, civil rights and the War in Vietnam. The problem is that it was a nonpolitical response. The earliest hippies that I knew, in the early to mid-60s, were veterans of existing movements who didn't have the heart for a consistent, ongoing, political response, so the they retreated into mysticism, various forms of relatively primitive communalism and, of course, into drugs.

As the economic prosperity of the 60s was destroyed by the Vietnam War, the viability of the hippy lifestyle deteriorated. It was pretty much all over for the hippies by 1970.

This said, the hippy lifestyle definitely contained cultural elements that were shared by us "politicos." This included music, clothes, music, sex and drugs. There was a commonality that was definitely recognized in the middle and late 60s. This was epitomized by people such as Abbie Hoffman, who tried to bridge the gap between hippies and politicos. Couldn't happen, but it was a noble effort.

I could write about this shit for days.

RED DAVE

[RadioRaheem84]

Nothing wrong with hippies. I dislike faux hippies like this one guy I met with long hair, a Grateful Dead shirt and smelled like cannabis. He asked me why I was thinking about voting for Nader and later confessed that he's a Republican! A lot of neo-hippies I've met are Willlie Nelson loving (nothing wrong with Willie), granola eating, dope smoking Republicans and Right-Libertarians. I think they're dubbed by others as "Crunchy Cons".

Also has anyone else noticed there's latley been a whole new class of Randian loving, hard rock/metal head, digitally obsessed, young adults that think being Libertarian or Republican is somehow anti-establishment. :rolleyes:

[RED DAVE]

Nothing wrong with hippies. I dislike faux hippies like this one guy I met with long hair, a Grateful Dead shirt and smelled like cannabis. He asked me why I was thinking about voting for Nader and later confessed that he's a Republican! A lot of neo-hippies I've met are Willlie Nelson loving (nothing wrong with Willie), granola eating, dope smoking Republicans and Right-Libertarians. I think they're dubbed by others as "Crunchy Cons".

Also has anyone else noticed there's latley been a whole new class of Randian loving, hard rock/metal head, digitally obsessed, young adults that think being Libertarian or Republican is somehow anti-establishment. A right-wing strain of bohemianism is nothing new. The original French bohemians of the latter part of the 19th Century contained genuine radicals like Courbet, but Gyp, the anarchist writer, was a virulent anti-republican and antisemite.

I remember back in the early 60s, Rand's cult of personality was briefly fashionable in and around Greenwich Village. The women wore capes and smoked with a cigarette holder because Rand did the same. They thought they were very cool.

RED DAVE

[ellipsis]

Hippy hating? How original.

[heylelshalem]

i dont think one should forget that the hippies and their predessesors considered themselves a revival of the original bohemian spirit.

[RED DAVE]

i dont think one should forget that the hippies and their predessesors considered themselves a revival of the original bohemian spirit.This was certainly the case of the early hippies, who included such people as Ed Sanders, of the great Fugs, and who ran a bookstore in the East Village called the Peace Eye. Ed was a latter-day beat and wrote a very funny book called "Tales of Beatnik Glory," which is one of the better titles of all time.

But, as the 60s went on, hippydom became less and less conscious of its roots and became less and less political. The Yippees, the consciously political hippies, were a relatively late development and an attempt to reverse this trend. The wikipedia entry for the Yips is a good place to start.

It's worthwhile for leftists to study the hippies, Yippies, beats, bohemia in general, to explore the underlying issues of art, revolution and culture. The hippies put forward a cultural challenge to capitalist values which, while frequently misguided and unpolitical, definitely played a role in the revolutionary zeitgeist.

RED DAVE

[Andrei Kuznetsov]

While I certainly respect the Yippies and the Beat Generation (Ginsberg is my favorite poet), for the most part, I echo the sentiment of what one local black metal band's t-shirts says:

I STOMP ON HIPPIES

Fuck'em, beat the smiles off their childish faces I say.

[RED DAVE]

While I certainly respect the Yippies and the Beat Generation (Ginsberg is my favorite poet), for the most part, I echo the sentiment of what one local black metal band's t-shirts says:

I STOMP ON HIPPIES

Fuck'em, beat the smiles off their childish faces I say.Could you, politically, justify this attitude of yours? Remember: the Beats numbered a few hundred; the Yippies a few thousand; hippies probably numbered in the millions.

RED DAVE

[Andrei Kuznetsov]

Their overly-happy attitude and rose-tinted view of the world irritates me to no end whatsoever. Their histrionic and puerile attitude is pure abrasion on my senses, and just... ugh, they're so HAPPY. Same goes with those candy-kid ravers, the stupid little shits.

A Doc Martin + Hippy's face = my idea of happiness.


...Oh, you said politically? Oh, ummm... errrr... well.... okay, no, I can't. BUT STILL, Hippies are dumb.

(goes back to moping, puffs on clove cigarette, rolls eyes)

[NecroCommie]

Their overly-happy attitude and rose-tinted view of the world irritates me to no end whatsoever. Their histrionic and puerile attitude is pure abrasion on my senses, and just... ugh, they're so HAPPY. Same goes with those candy-kid ravers, the stupid little shits.

A Doc Martin + Hippy's face = my idea of happiness.


...Oh, you said politically? Oh, ummm... errrr... well.... okay, no, I can't. BUT STILL, Hippies are dumb.

(goes back to moping, puffs on clove cigarette, rolls eyes)
These oppinions are fine as long as they don't lead to anti-hippie actions. I felt entitled to say this before people start killing you slowly.

[punisa]

Most of those hippies grew up and became yuppies anyways.

And what makes you think that many of the so-called "revolutionaries" that lurk around here won't grow up to be the same?

[Spawn of Stalin]

Judging by some of the posts here many will, I suspect we have a few future liberals amongst us too.

[RadioRaheem84]

And what makes you think that many of the so-called "revolutionaries" that lurk around here won't grow up to be the same?

Because I was a liberal yuppie.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Their overly-happy attitude and rose-tinted view of the world irritates me to no end whatsoever. Their histrionic and puerile attitude is pure abrasion on my senses, and just... ugh, they're so HAPPY. Same goes with those candy-kid ravers, the stupid little shits.

A Doc Martin + Hippy's face = my idea of happiness.


...Oh, you said politically? Oh, ummm... errrr... well.... okay, no, I can't. BUT STILL, Hippies are dumb.

(goes back to moping, puffs on clove cigarette, rolls eyes)

Rose-tinted view of the world? Are we talking about the same hippies here? because most I know are more concerned for the state of the world/society than most others.

They may not be revolutionaries, but hippies are usually on our side of the police lines.

[x359594]

...the Beats numbered a few hundred; the Yippies a few thousand; hippies probably numbered in the millions...

I doubt these figures. Since no one took a census of people who identified themselves as beat, Yippie or hippie there are no reliable demographic numbers available.

In terms of lasting influence certainly the Beats made the biggest impact. All of the key Beat literature remains in print. By contrast the hippies left no literary legacy. The Yippies in the form of the Youth International Party carried on into the 1980s. Dana Beal is alive and well and still an activist.

It seems to me that the hippies were easily co-opted. Many, perhaps most (but not all) became the hip capitalist entrepreneurs of the 1980s.

[RED DAVE]

Remember: the Beats numbered a few hundred; the Yippies a few thousand; hippies probably numbered in the millions.

I doubt these figures.Do you now? And on what basis?


Since no one took a census of people who identified themselves as beat, Yippie or hippie there are no reliable demographic numbers available.Probably true, but consider this: the Beats were a literary movement consisting, basically, of a small group of active artists. The Yippies were an organized political movement, with chapters, or at least foci. The hippies were an unorganized mass movement.

Having witnessed, directly, all three groupings, I can say that there is no comparison in terms of size. The hippies were probably between 100 times and a 1000 times greater in magnitude than the Yippies. They dominated the Haight-Ashbury district of San Francisco and the East Village of New York. Probably no city in the US was without its hippie neighborhood (e.g. Old Town in Chicago).


In terms of lasting influence certainly the Beats made the biggest impact.That depends on what you call "the biggest impact." Remember that much of the lifestyle of college students today and so-called BoBos is a descendant of the hippie lifestyle. In fact, the use of the word "lifestyle" is a remnant of hippie culture. The absolute predominance of jeans as the most common item of wearing apparel in the world has much to do with the continued influence on hippiedom.


All of the key Beat literature remains in print. By contrast the hippies left no literary legacy.Some people need to read things like (just off the top of my head) "Steal This Book," "Been Down So Long it Looks Like Up to Me," "Watermelon Sugar" (and other works by Brautigan), "Ringeleevio," etc. Certainly, the Beats, as a conscious and self-conscious literary movement, had a greater impact, but don't scant what you haven't read. And, in addition, the hippies had a huge impact on rock music.


The Yippies in the form of the Youth International Party carried on into the 1980s. Dana Beal is alive and well and still an activist.You are talking about, by the mid-70s, a very small group. I do remember their world headquarters, on Bleecker Street in Manhattan well into the 80s. But how many latter-day hippies carry on in out-of-the way places as members of communes like the Hog Farm, as farmers, etc.?


It seems to me that the hippies were easily co-opted.This is true. Remember, they were a very diverse and basically unpolitical, in many ways anti-political, grouping.


Many, perhaps most (but not all) became the hip capitalist entrepreneurs of the 1980s.Many too many hippies to have all become "hip capitalists." The ones that I knew mainly went into teaching and social work.

In terms of politics, the Beats and the Yippies were certainly far more political than the hippies. And those of us who were "politicos" were far more political than either of the Beats or Yippies. (Remember that Kerouac ended up as a drunken Nixon supporter. Jerry Rubin ended up trying to develop a networking franchise for yuppies.) But to under-rate the hippies as a mass response against capitalism is to misunderstand history as it unfolded.

RED DAVE

[x359594]

Red Dave I doubt your figures on the basis that you offered no supporting evidence. You admit as much when you say "probably true" to my assertion. I don't question that the hippies were a mass movement, nor do I question that the Beats were also a mass movement, but without demographic surveys we can only guess at the numbers.

You say "don't scant what you haven't read." Comrade, how do you know what I haven't read? As a matter of fact I read each title you mentioned in the year they were published. I also read all 4 issues of Us the paperback hippie magazine. As for Brautigan, his writing predates the hippie movement and emerges from the Beats; he was good friends with David Meltzer and sat in on Lew Welch's writing classes at UC Berkeley extension.

The Beat movement as a way of life exclusive of artistic production was wide spread according to such sources as the San Francisco Chronicle, the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, academic studies of juvenile delinquency, Lawernce Lipton's The Holy Barbarians; William Burroughs claimed that the Beat movement reached Morocco and cosmopolitan areas of the Third World. Not to mention law enforcement reports and data. Not to say that any of this is conclusive, but all this suggests to me that the Beat movement was for a time wide spread, certainly more than a few hundred.

As to the staying power of the Beats, there was the post-Beat revival of the 1970s; Beatitude magazine was revived at that time (next month the 50th anniversary issue is being released.) And with recent 50th anniversaries of Howl (1956), On the Road (1957) Bomb (1958) and Naked Lunch (1959) there is currently another Beat revival.

Returning to the hippies, in my view their lasting influence is in the area of environmental awareness and popular use of marijuana. Culturally they did indeed add new idioms to rock. They were certainly a world wide mass movement, and in some respects they were the massification of the Beat ethos minus the blue collar look (jeans, t-shirt, work boots, short hair) for men and the black mascara, black sweater look for women.

I've heard it said that "The Beats plus acid equal the hippies." I think there's something to that. Allen Ginsberg, Gary Snyder, Lenore Kendal and Alan Watts from the Beat era shared center stage with Timothy Leary and the Diggers at the Great Human Be-In of 1967; Neal Cassady was the driver of the Prankster bus Further and emceed many a Grateful Dead concert/acid test.

About Kerouac ending as a drunken Nixon supporter, in his terminal alcoholism he was still capable of surreal insights like when he told William F. Buckley that the Vietnam War was a conspiracy to get jeeps into the country, and during the same interview he said, "The hippies are good kids, better than we were." Also, remember that Ginsberg ended as a pioneer of gay liberation and remained an anti-imperialist until the end of his life (see his page at "The Mossadegh Project" linked from the Monthly Review), Lawerence Ferlinghetti at 92 is still an anti-war activist and Gary Snyder at 79 is still a paid up IWW member and fighting the good environmental fight in the Sierra Nevadas, Diane di Prima still advocating for women in the arts and opposing US aggression, Amiri Baraka still a dedicated Marxist.

[Black Star]

Hippies are harmless. Honestly, I simply don't understand the deep-seeded hatred of them on this board. They don't deserve the attention.

[A.R.Amistad]

Posted by Holden Caulfield

oh and they need a hair cut as well

I was going to thank you, but then you said this. :( Metalheads have long hair too.....:crying:

[OutRider]

Ok, besides the almost excessive predominance of drug culture within the hippie culture; i know they tried to make some communes and stuff but how strong was the anti-capitalist feeling within the hippie culture?

Did they really care about the negativity of capitalism ?

Perhaps they felt a communal life was good living.

Now the Yippies on the other hand...

[x359594]

Hippies are harmless. Honestly, I simply don't understand the deep-seeded hatred of them on this board...

I'm not sure where the hatred is coming from. It would be interesting to find out. Possibly it's left-wing puritanism. More than a few leftists find pleasure morally suspect, "The man who laughs/has not heard/the terrible news" as Brecht put it in a poem.

In 1961 Gary Snyder wrote, "[I]...support[...]any cultural and economic revolution that moves clearly toward a free, international, classless world. It means using such means as civil disobedience, outspoken criticism, protest, pacifism, voluntary poverty and even gentle violence if it comes to a matter of restraining some impetuous redneck. It means affirming the widest possible spectrum of non-harmful individual behavior — defending the right of individuals to smoke hemp, eat peyote, be polygynous, polyandrous or homosexual. Worlds of behavior and custom long banned by the Judaeo-Capitalist-Christian-Marxist West. It means respecting intelligence and learning, but not as greed or means to personal power. Working on one’s own responsibility, but willing to work with a group. 'Forming the new society within the shell of the old' — the IWW slogan of fifty years ago."

Emphasis added.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

what's wrong of going like naked everyhwhere just to shock people?

You might be able to get away with that in Crete, but in England in November there's serious practical reasons why that's a bad idea.

Judging by some of the posts here many will, I suspect we have a few future liberals amongst us too.
Yup, cos no "Marxist-Leninists/anti-revisionists" ever make their peace with the establishment, do they (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/stra-n29.shtml)?

Anyway, on the main topic: I have a housemate who's a hippy, and I know people who do useful political work who can be categorised as hippies. But the vast majority of them still irritate the fuck out of me, and the ones I like I like despite, not because of, the fact that they're hippies. Maybe there's no rational reason why hippies are so intensely fucking annoying, but then I defy anyone to give a logical reason for being a hippy either.
Although I think it'd be wrong to say there was no real anti-capitalist sentiment among the original hippies: the Diggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers_%28theater%29) and Up Against the Wall Motherfucker! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_Against_the_Wall_Motherfuckers) were definitely hippy anti-capitalists, and I'm sure SDS must've had plenty of hippies too.

[x359594]

...I'm sure SDS must've had plenty of hippies too.

SDS had an anti-drug policy, and relations between hippies and SDS members were often strained in other areas. Hippies were playful when they were supposed to be serious, as afr as hippies were concerned Marxism-Leninism was square, violence goes against the peace and love ethos, etc.

A lot of hippies showed up at anti-war actions, but few SDSers showed up at love-ins and acid tests.

[Rusty Shackleford]

A lot of hippies showed up at anti-war actions, but few SDSers showed up at love-ins and acid tests.


thats probably a good thing. even though the SDS died out (and then recently cam back) it would have probably screwed the SDS a bit sooner.

i dont have an anti drug sentiment, but there is a limit that should be suggested.


yippies seem alright though.

fuck yuppies though.

[x359594]

...yippies seem alright though.

fuck yuppies though.

I agree with your last sentiment.

About the Youth International Party (aka yippies), they excelled at guerrilla theater, and they tried to combine the pleasure-loving ethos of the hippies with New Left activism. They did pot and acid too by the way.

In the 1980s YIP was a fringe outlaw outfit dealing pot "to support the revolution" and for a time had an uneasy partnership with the New York City chapter of the Hell's Angels then headquartered on East 2nd Street; YIP had its headquarters downtown too. Dana Beal was running things in those days.

[heylelshalem]

neo-hippies tend to gravitate towards issues that have presience. Though the rejection of burgeois acclimation of wealth has a certain split. A lot of hippies get involved in trade of recycling used goods(which is a direct response to corporate consumer culture propoganda). Their tends to be a sway towards sustainable culture as well..especially in relation to local food sources. I've met other "neo-hippies" who live on the dole and all ride bikes as transport..some gravitating towards liberal arts educational depts of colleges..

But the astetic is essentially bohemian as far as the mindset of the neo-hippie. A certain disregard toward typical consumerism..a certain distaste for consumer culture. A gravitas towards environmental conciousness. Though i think that the philosophy is'nt particularly different in some aspects. I grew up in a rural are where it literally was pretty much old hippies and rednecks. Part of the principle philosophy of these old hippies i grew up with..my father was an old hippie..was the distrust of burgeois autonomy and a particular reverance of working class cuture.

I think that the ideam of counterculture of that period was quite revolutionary in some sense. Punk rock and hardcore culture would later adopt more "nihilistic" views towards their views on the whole projection. What i have learned of fringe cultures is that there is a pecular restructuring of ones own view on "square" culture. The astetic idealouge can also find one close to that root as well. I myself find contentment in living simply. I had worked the saw-mills . I had been a factory worker. There is solace in Living simply and finding new rythymns.

Although i could say that i prefer the country life. Bohemian extant is a good philosophy to hold close to. And if you ever listened to the greatful dead they did an album "workingmans dead". Though i can say that country life has a certain draw to the bohemian souls. And if you want to read about a revolutionary please please read about Abby hoffman. He was a genius at the current method of subversion of corporate culture to satire its own "pigness" once with a political canidate he promoted called pigasus.

The yippies used the media to subvert the culture. And i think that the best book written by a beat about said culture was "the electric kool aid acid test". Of which inspired myself to try acid once or a lot more.

So the hippies were the victims in some sense of the media push to understand what was initially being pushed. Their are still quite a few very socially concious individuals who adopt the facade of "hippie" in their own dealings so to speak with the world.

[Raúl Duke]

And i think that the best book written by a beat about said culture was "the electric kool aid acid test".

Tom Wolfe wasn't a beat to my knowledge...

He was part of the wave for "new journalism" which advocated a form of narrative journalism.

Don't know why much hate for hippies per se, actually isn;t the person who was rantin anf ravin about them to my knowledge some anime-loving metal-head? A few people who like that kind of rock music tend to be reactionaries, at least in college.

Although I've meet a few of those who ended up being a bunch of right libertarians and even meet a so-called Republican one so the neo-hippies are lame.

I would like to see a Beat rivival though...

[Invincible Summer]

One thing that may just be a cliche is the whole "peace" loving thing... just like "human rights," "peace" is such a subjective, abstract concept. It pisses me off so much when people just talk about "peace" and how we need to have "peace," etc.

When these hippies talk about "peace," peace for whom? There can be no peace between the ruling classes and the proletariat.

[Steve_j]

My music and lifestyle brings me into contact with lots of "hippies" and to be honest its very hard to generalise about them in any sense other than lifestyle choices.

Alot of my closets friends are "hippies" and whilst there is a common belief in reform or to some extent revolution, the hippies of today are multi national, multi ethnic, from all class backgrounds and various political views, from apolitical to staunch reformists to anarchists and communists. It not something you can really discuss unless you want to define what you think a hippe is.