On (upper) "class traitors"

[Ol' Dirty]

This is about a different kind of class traitor... not the worker who becomes a scab, but of people of the upper class (capitalist, bourgois, whatever) who switch sides. Historically, there have been lots of them... in fact, most of the influential socialist characters came from the upper working, petty-bourgoise/middle or capitalist class: Engels' father was a major industrialist; Guevara was a middle-class Argentine who went to medical school; Mao Zedong was the son of well-to-do farmers. For working-class people to struggle for working-class interests, how important are bougoise "class traitors"?

[MarxSchmarx]

This is about a different kind of class traitor... not the worker who becomes a scab, but of people of the upper class (capitalist, bourgois, whatever) who switch sides. Historically, there have been lots of them... in fact, most of the influential socialist characters came from the upper working, petty-bourgoise/middle or capitalist class: Engels' father was a major industrialist; Guevara was a middle-class Argentine who went to medical school; Mao Zedong was the son of well-to-do farmers. For working-class people to struggle for working-class interests, how important are bougoise "class traitors"?

Marx (and Engels) specifically anticipated such a phenomena:



Finally, in times when the class struggle nears the decisive hour, the progress of dissolution going on within the ruling class, in fact within the whole range of old society, assumes such a violent, glaring character, that a small section of the ruling class cuts itself adrift, and joins the revolutionary class, the class that holds the future in its hands. Just as, therefore, at an earlier period, a section of the nobility went over to the bourgeoisie, so now a portion of the bourgeoisie goes over to the proletariat, and in particular, a portion of the bourgeois ideologists, who have raised themselves to the level of comprehending theoretically the historical movement as a whole.

But this doesn't mean that the proletariat as a class recedes as the primary vehicle for social change.

Such change driven by a handful of self-appointed bourgeoisie is far from the class struggle, and is doomed to failure. Such bourgeois class traitors are neither necessary nor sufficient to advance the class struggle.

[red cat]

Marx (and Engels) specifically anticipated such a phenomena:



But this doesn't mean that the proletariat as a class recedes as the primary vehicle for social change.

Such change driven by a handful of self-appointed bourgeoisie is far from the class struggle, and is doomed to failure. Such bourgeois class traitors are neither necessary nor sufficient to advance the class struggle.

True. Even the three laws of Marxist dialectics were independently discovered by a worker, before Marx.

[Pogue]

Let them come if they want, its not really that important.

[Hit The North]

It becomes important in that in revolutionary periods many bourgeois may come over to the side of the revolutionaries for genuine political reasons or just for the sake of self-preservation. In these times it is important that the workers maintain control over the defecting bourgeois and not allow them to take unaccountable leadership roles.

[Pogue]

It becomes important in that in revolutionary periods many bourgeois may come over to the side of the revolutionaries for genuine political reasons or just for the sake of self-preservation. In these times it is important that the workers maintain control over the defecting bourgeois and not allow them to take unaccountable leadership roles.

Yeh this happened in the Russian Revolution and was a big problem.

[La Comédie Noire]

Literacy and education were class privileges. Thanks to public education and even more recently, the internet, that's changing. Not only is the working class getting smarter, but they're being exposed to ideas outside the narrow constraints of the corporate media.

If it weren't for the internet, I couldn't tell you what manner of stupid bull shit I'd still be indoctrinated with.

[Il Medico]

They are welcome to join, but they should not lead. This has been a problem in the past, many revolutionaries were from an upper class background. They had the education to understand the concepts better then many workers and thus dominated the leadership of working class revolution. Workers now have the means to educate themselves. This was what was lacking in the past and what necessitated that the class traitors take predominate leadership roles. However, the conditions have changed and now the proper revolutionary body can begin to take charge.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

It becomes important in that in revolutionary periods many bourgeois may come over to the side of the revolutionaries for genuine political reasons or just for the sake of self-preservation. In these times it is important that the workers maintain control over the defecting bourgeois and not allow them to take unaccountable leadership roles.

This. When times have been bad, that's historically been the case.

[Robocommie]

I mean, shit, I'll be honest. I'm from the upper middle class. I became a Leftist to see the same advantages I received given to everyone. I haven't felt I needed to apologize for it though, as my politics are a matter of conscience and my family's wealth is a matter of accident of birth.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

A lot can be told from when people join.

I am by no means one of the exploited in this country. Having said that, i'm not at all well off either. I am a Socialist out of belief and idealism, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

I would, however, be far more suspicious about the phenomena Marx identifies; that is, those of my kind and those who are wealthy, even, joining the ranks of the revolution, for that would be a mere act of self-preservation, which would later give rise to the possiblity of a new ruling strata/class being established.

[ComradeMan]

Perhaps people should stop judging people merely by their so-called class background and ecomonic status and more by their actions and their words. It's the belief and the action that count. All people reveal here with some of these attacks on people like El Che as class traitors etc is a form of inverted snobbery which is in itself a product of the capitalist state. By the same token it's not like all working class people are saints either,in my experience you can find just as many bigots, and "mini-capitalists" on a factory floor as you can in the board of directors of a merchant bank.

[Kibbutznik]

Perhaps people should stop judging people merely by their so-called class background and ecomonic status and more by their actions and their words. It's the belief and the action that count. All people reveal here with some of these attacks on people like El Che as class traitors etc is a form of inverted snobbery which is in itself a product of the capitalist state. By the same token it's not like all working class people are saints either,in my experience you can find just as many bigots, and "mini-capitalists" on a factory floor as you can in the board of directors of a merchant bank.

I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting that.

[RedRise]

Perhaps people should stop judging people merely by their so-called class background and ecomonic status and more by their actions and their words

I absolutely agree. Besides which revolutions do need funding and if the people with the money are on our side then that wealth can be used for better purposes. A revolution can't ever be won with violence alone otherwise it'll end up like the USSR with a strong communist party shoving propaganda down everybody's throats and we all know how that turns out.

[The Red Next Door]

Let not forgot that why many people fear communism who are do not live in the fucking hamptons

[CommunistWaffle]

Lee Harvey Oswald moved to the USSR after being in the US Marine Corps and being born and raised in the US.