Black Nationalism?

[BonnyPortmore]

People refer to Malcom X and Huey P newton as revolutionaries, yet they were self proclaimed Black Nationalists.
How is Black Nationalism any different from White Nationalism and how can one be a revolutionary if their politics are based on racial identity rather than social unity?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

They were not racists and I would not think they considered themselves revolutionary, I'm not sure about Newton but definitely not Malcolm X until later on in his life. It was a struggle for the freedom from oppression of African-American people and they did not exclude white people from fighting alongside them.

[BonnyPortmore]

The black panthers said they wanted all black prisoners released and if they commit a crime in the future they should be judged by all black peers.
That seems racist to me.
If i asked for all white jurors, most of revleft would brand me as racist.
However i would not care what colour they are.
Also, the NBPP want harlem segregated into black and white according the new leader on a louis theroux tv documentary.

[Искра]

I agree with you BonnyPortmore and I do have same question as you:
How can Black Nationalism not to be reactionary?

Also, why black nationalism? Black people are race not nation.

[9]

The black panthers said they wanted all black prisoners released and if they commit a crime in the future they should be judged by all black peers.
That seems racist to me.
If i asked for all white jurors, most of revleft would brand me as racist.
However i would not care what colour they are.
Also, the NBPP want harlem segregated into black and white according the new leader on a louis theroux tv documentary.

What's racist is that black Americans are convicted of crimes with shit for evidence because the juries are predominantly white and America is deeply racist. And during the time the Black Panthers were active racism was far more socially acceptable and common than it is now, which is saying a lot because America is still extremely racist. I'm honestly not sure what you don't understand there? It would be racist for you as a white person to ask for all white jurors because most jurors you'll get will be white anyway and whites in America are privileged as a result of their skin color - as opposed to being oppressed because of it as black Americans are. You don't have to worry about a racist jury finding you guilty because of your skin color, so there would be no logical reason to request an all white jury.

[BonnyPortmore]

Politics based on race are destructive to society i would of thought.
Especially one that promotes racial segregation like the new panther party does.
But i do not know alot about the panthers or their history so maybe i am wrong, maybe they are revolutionary

[Искра]

NBPP is anti-Semitic. The are joke.

[9]

^Yeah, the new group claiming the name is something entirely different.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

.
Also, the NBPP want harlem segregated into black and white according the new leader on a louis theroux tv documentary.

The New Black Panther Party have nothing to do with the Black Panther Party of the 60's/70's. You have to understand the context to which the BPP rose out of. It rose out of widespread racism and oppression of black people in America. They were working to free Black America from this racism and did work with white people. They were not a racist group. The BPP believed in revolution as well and defeating racism is a part of this I'm sure you'll agree.

[BonnyPortmore]

Do you have any links to the anti semitic story?

[Искра]

But still how can black nationalism be something progressive? Communism is about class solidarity which goes beyond nation or race. Black nationalism is also dividing blacks from whites. I mean I don't have any experience on that question since I saw only 2 black people in my life, but reading about it and listening to for example black nationalist or rastafarian music I really get impression that this is black reaction to white racism, which follows the same direction - segregation.

[BonnyPortmore]

Oh so the NBPP have nothing to do with the old black panthers.
Clears things up a bit.
So what does the new party advocate beside segregation and anti smeitism.
Gas chambers and child labour?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

But still how can black nationalism be something progressive? Communism is about class solidarity which goes beyond nation or race. Black nationalism is also dividing blacks from whites. I mean I don't have any experience on that question since I saw only 2 black people in my life, but reading about it and listening to for example black nationalist or rastafarian music I really get impression that this is black reaction to white racism, which follows the same direction - segregation.

Well someone who advocates segregation of race is not a revolutionary definitely. But I don't know which groups you are referring to. Certainly the BPP was not a group which advocated segregation. They worked with white people and they did believe in international working class revolution. The article you posted outlined some of the ideas of the organisations of the time. I don't know how they can be considered reactionary.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Oh so the NBPP have nothing to do with the old black panthers.
Clears things up a bit.
So what does the new party advocate beside segregation and anti smeitism.
Gas chambers and child labour?

What is the point of concentrating on the NBPP? I don't see you going on about white nationalist groups, whose historic crimes of racism are far more disgusting than anything a black nationalist group has ever done.

[Hammer_Sickle]

My opinion is that you can't refer to yourself as revolutionary and nationalist.A true revolutionary fights for human rights,for equally treat.

[9]

Politics based on race are destructive to society i would of thought.

Left communists, I believe, argue that such things are categorically reactionary in every instance and without exception...
Obviously I agree that class analysis should be central, but when a 'demographic' is subjected to centuries of slavery and persecution and just absolutely barbaric treatment, and is deprived of very basic 'rights' afforded to others based on their race, I personally think it's absurd to condemn the oppressed group for organizing around that, with others who are oppressed based on their skin color, and fighting back. Unfortunately, at a time when the substantial majority of the country was overtly racist (and frequently violent), it's easy to understand why many black Americans would have seen organizing on the basis of class - with white workers who were predominantly very racist against them - as being pure idealistic nonsense.

[BonnyPortmore]

What is the point of concentrating on the NBPP? I don't see you going on about white nationalist groups, whose historic crimes of racism are far more disgusting than anything a black nationalist group has ever done.

Because we dont call the BNP or NF revolutionary, yet leftists call black nationalists revolutionaries
I was wondering how you can justify callin the current black nationalist groups ie NBPP revolutionary

[Искра]

Do you have any links to the anti semitic story?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DQAOZlNrO8
Its capitalist propaganda but guys are talking against Jew and medias are exploiting this.




My opinion is that you can't refer to yourself as revolutionary and nationalist.A true revolutionary fights for human rights,for equally treat.
I agree.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Because we dont call the BNP or NF revolutionary, yet leftists call black nationalists revolutionaries
I was wondering how you can justify callin the current black nationalist groups ie NBPP revolutionary

But no one is calling the New Black Panther Party revolutionary.

[Искра]

Well someone who advocates segregation of race is not a revolutionary definitely. But I don't know which groups you are referring to. Certainly the BPP was not a group which advocated segregation. They worked with white people and they did believe in international working class revolution. The article you posted outlined some of the ideas of the organisations of the time. I don't know how they can be considered reactionary.
I'm not talking about BPP I'm talking against nationalism and racism. I don't understand how can black NATIONALISM, be something progressive.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

As Apikoros said very eloquently. To completely ignore the historical circumstances of which the BPP rose out of is to completely misunderstand their existence and is quite frankly ridiculous and ignorant.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I'm not talking about BPP I'm talking against nationalism and racism. I don't understand how can black NATIONALISM, be something progressive.

I said it wasn't. But in this thread the BPP has been labelled nationalist which is incorrect, they believed in Black Liberation, which of course would you not agree is linked to revolution (which they also believed in)?

[Искра]

As Apikoros said very eloquently. To completely ignore the historical circumstances of which the BPP rose out of is to completely misunderstand their existence and is quite frankly ridiculous and ignorant.
As I said, I'm not talking about BPP and I know about whole history of black struggle and racism in America.
But still, why are people claiming that black nationalism is something progressive? Today there are black nationalist movements, black nationalism is some kind of ideology etc. and as far as I see (read) they are going more an more into segregation.
I know that people here (especially those from USA) appreciate BPP for community organising and for socialist (Maoist?) policy... but I don't see any traces of that today. Are they any?
Still, I don't see why should people on Marxist or, better to say, revolutionary left forum support any kind of nationalism. Is black nationalism ideology which seek to liberate whole working class, or it's only about black community?

[Искра]

I said it wasn't.
Haven't see that.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

As I said, I'm not talking about BPP and I know about whole history of black struggle and racism in America.
But still, why are people claiming that black nationalism is something progressive? Today there are black nationalist movements, black nationalism is some kind of ideology etc. and as far as I see (read) they are going more an more into segregation.
I know that people here (especially those from USA) appreciate BPP for community organising and for socialist (Maoist?) policy... but I don't see any traces of that today. Are they any?
Still, I don't see why should people on Marxist or, better to say, revolutionary left forum support any kind of nationalism. Is black nationalism ideology which seek to liberate whole working class, or it's only about black community?

Ok, in this thread the groups and men that are being defended were not 'nationalist' because they were not racist and did not believe in segregation. They have been labelled by people throughout history but doing so is completely ignoring the definition of nationalism. They simply believed in Black Liberation, which remains an issue in America today.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Haven't see that.

I said this on the previous page:


Well someone who advocates segregation of race is not a revolutionary definitely.

[Искра]

I said this on the previous page:
I meant I posted my post before yourse.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Ok sorry.

[Искра]

No problem ;)

[BonnyPortmore]

sorry if i have created tension.
i will take my ass wikipedia:)

[Stranger Than Paradise]

sorry if i have created tension.
i will take my ass wikipedia:)

Discussion is a great thing it isn't tension. Sorry if my posts sound aggressive, believe me I don't mean them to. I hope I have cleared up your questions though.

[BonnyPortmore]

Discussion is a great thing it isn't tension. Sorry if my posts sound aggressive, believe me I don't mean them to. I hope I have cleared up your questions though.

They have inspired me to take out a black panther history book from the library.
After i have read it i can see if i agree with you

[Plagueround]

I'm not talking about BPP I'm talking against nationalism and racism. I don't understand how can black NATIONALISM, be something progressive.

Because when a racial or ethnic group is disenfranchised and has no power base within a country that their ancestors were brought to in chains, it likely would be progressive for them to have a land base with which to operate their socio-economic and cutural activities, something they were denied when their forebearers were forced onto a different continent with their language, customs, and beliefs brutally suppressed. It's also important to keep in mind this was a time in America where blacks had little to no representation in government or industry, and much of the government and people in America were largely still interested in White Nationalism.

I honestly don't know what the detailed situation is like for ethnic minorities where you're from so I won't speak as if I do (although judging from current events I'd guess there are probably a lot of problems :( ), but as a minority from America I can speak from both study, conversations with others, and personal experience that there is a lot of pressure to submit to the dominant culture and discard anything that that culture doesn't see as valuable. It is because of things like this that we have trouble getting minorities to genuinely believe socialists, anarchists, and/or communists have different intentions for them and aren't just another wing of the dominant culture. Because of all that I've mentioned (and that's just scratching the surface), things like a separate national identity appear attractive because the nation state or sovereign territories stand a better chance of allowing this suppressed culture or group to thrive. A lot of times, this potential national identity is simply seen as the best way to help uplift those around you. Which I suppose brings up an interesting question about the right to self determination in relation to displaced or occupied groups, something we've discussed at great lengths on this forum in other forms.

I should also note that the above is not what I advocate and is just an explanation.