Ireland: 70,000 blast government for targeting ordinary people for the rich

[cyu]

Excerpts from http://www.irishcentral.com/news/70000-people-bring-Dublin-to-standstill-in-day-of-protest-69396057.html

http://media.irishcentral.com/images/dublin_protest_300x200_nov6.jpg

Dublin was brought to a standstill today as up to 70,000 people took to the streets as part of a national day of protest.

The rallies took place in Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford, Sligo, Tullamore and Dundalk with Dublin by far the largest.

Jack O'Connor, the president of the services trade union Siptu blasted the Government for targeting the ordinary people of Ireland over the rich.

The Dublin Fire Brigade took part in the protest

"We have never benefited from the 'Celtic Tiger'

Kidd is one of the roughly 100,000 emergency workers who will next week vote on a 24-hour strike on November 24.

[Uncle Ho]

When I saw "blast" I thought they were doing something useful instead of sign waving.

Disappointed again, it seems.

[the last donut of the night]

When I saw "blast" I thought they were doing something useful instead of sign waving.

Disappointed again, it seems.


Shall we be realistic for once, hmm?

If by "blast", you meant bombings, you seem to be an idiot. Violence at this point would achieve nothing, and would be silly terrorism, which doesn't really work as a revolutionary means.

You, like any good leftist, should be applauding these workers fighting for their rights.

[gorillafuck]

When I saw "blast" I thought they were doing something useful instead of sign waving.

Disappointed again, it seems.
Rethink the "if it isn't violent, it's nothing" mentality, that'll get you nowhere.

[Uncle Ho]

Shall we be realistic for once, hmm?

If by "blast", you meant bombings, you seem to be an idiot. Violence at this point would achieve nothing, and would be silly terrorism, which doesn't really work as a revolutionary means.

You, like any good leftist, should be applauding these workers fighting for their rights.

Sign waving, on the other hand, is 100% effective.

I hear that the Viet Minh only turned the tides against the Americans when they began replacing their AKs with sandwich board. The mere sight of it sent the American Army running and knocked their bombers from the sky.

If only they had the sandwich board at Dien Bien Phu, they could have tunneled through that mountain in half the time. It becomes even more effective when you compare a prominent member of government to a monkey, preferably with a witty little drawing.


Rethink the "if it isn't violent, it's nothing" mentality, that'll get you nowhere.

How does "If it isn't violent, it's actually harmful to the movement as it dilutes the movement which is already so scatterbrained and rudderless it couldn't find it's own hands in the dark, and creates a counter-revolutionary spirit among people by leading them to believe that sandwich board can accomplish all their political goals, if it just has witty enough slogans on it" sound?

The bourgeoisie ruler can and will ignore all peaceful protest, and they will do it forever. They cannot ignore rifles and bombs.

[PRC-UTE]

there's a time and place for different tactics, but mass struggle is what's needed at the moment.

any kind of violent attacks would only drive people away from showing up at demos or getting involved.

even in Vietnam, the resistance forces used violence tactically, they always attemnpted negotiations or political struggle first.

[the last donut of the night]

Sign waving, on the other hand, is 100% effective.

I hear that the Viet Minh only turned the tides against the Americans when they began replacing their AKs with sandwich board. The mere sight of it sent the American Army running and knocked their bombers from the sky.

If only they had the sandwich board at Dien Bien Phu, they could have tunneled through that mountain in half the time. It becomes even more effective when you compare a prominent member of government to a monkey, preferably with a witty little drawing.


How does "If it isn't violent, it's actually harmful to the movement as it dilutes the movement which is already so scatterbrained and rudderless it couldn't find it's own hands in the dark, and creates a counter-revolutionary spirit among people by leading them to believe that sandwich board can accomplish all their political goals, if it just has witty enough slogans on it" sound?

The bourgeoisie ruler can and will ignore all peaceful protest, and they will do it forever. They cannot ignore rifles and bombs.


Oh, you're a snide little one, aren't you?

There are enormous differences between the level of the class-consciousness of the Irish and Vietnamese proletariat. Furthermore, you are comparing two different eras, with two different economic and social situations. The Vietnamese proletariat, at that time, was revolutionized and was taking part in a revolutionary war.

The Irish workers c. 2009, post-neoliberal reform era, are on a much different situation. They are not revolutionized, and we all know that.

Violence at this point won't do shit -- actually, it'd probably worsen the situation, as the bourgeois media would start calling any leftist movements as 'terrorist'. We know that that has been a mudslinging campaign the mainstream media has constantly used to slander movements.

Protests, on the other hand, are needed for the following reasons: 1) they show worker solidarity with other members of the proletariat and 2) they show the bourgeois that if it wanted to, the working class could destroy capitalism very easily. The numbers of people on the street are intimidating. Protests are shows of force, if you didn't notice.

Your complete disregard for current events affecting the proletariat is both a tad depressing and condescending. Oh, because the workers should be doing that, or this, but they're not, with they're witty signs!

What have you done to advance the revolution? Aside from sitting on your armchair, reading from marxists.org?

[Uncle Ho]

Oh, you're a snide little one, aren't you?

There are enormous differences between the level of the class-consciousness of the Irish and Vietnamese proletariat. Furthermore, you are comparing two different eras, with two different economic and social situations. The Vietnamese proletariat, at that time, was revolutionized and was taking part in a revolutionary war.

The only difference is that the Vietnamese people had the courage to stand up and fight instead of letting the bourgeoisie continue to destroy them.


The Irish workers c. 2009, post-neoliberal reform era, are on a much different situation. They are not revolutionized, and we all know that.

What they need, then, is leadership. Someone to revolutionize them again.
The Irish, throughout their history, have had quite possibly the strongest revolutionary spirit, but now they are fattened up and blinded by the bourgeoisie lies. They've gotten so focused on chasing the carrot in front of their faces, they've missed the dagger behind them. The same could be said of most western workers these days.


Violence at this point won't do shit -- actually, it'd probably worsen the situation, as the bourgeois media would start calling any leftist movements as 'terrorist'. We know that that has been a mudslinging campaign the mainstream media has constantly used to slander movements.

Yes, and this has never bothered real revolutionaries. Perhaps the solution is not outright violence, yet, but it is always something more than waving a sign around.


Protests, on the other hand, are needed for the following reasons: 1) they show worker solidarity with other members of the proletariat
Which will be quickly forgotten the second it becomes inconvenient.

and 2) they show the bourgeois that if it wanted to, the working class could destroy capitalism very easily. The numbers of people on the street are intimidating. Protests are shows of force, if you didn't notice.

No, what they demonstrate is that the Proletariat will not destroy Capitalism. If they would, they'd be doing it, as opposed to waving signs. Protests show the rulers that the people are in control and being good little serfs. They show that their brainwashing campaigns have worked, and that the people have laid down their arms to exploit their brothers and sisters.


Your complete disregard for current events affecting the proletariat is both a tad depressing and condescending. Oh, because the workers should be doing that, or this, but they're not, with they're witty signs!

And the cowardly inactivity, willingness to bow the second a single iota of pressure is applied, seeming love of compromise, and dilluted, rudderless nature of the modern left has been depressing me for years.


What have you done to advance the revolution? Aside from sitting on your armchair, reading from marxists.org?

As of right now, I'm slowly rehabilitating a broken ankle while I assist in the planning of more direct action (read: not sign waving) on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Uncle Ho you are an embarrassment. In times of low class consciousness individual acts of violence will do nothing for our cause. There is in no way violence against the bourgeoisie will help further our struggle at this point in time, what the people of Dublin did on this march is a very encouraging thing and should not be dismissed because it wasn't a full blown violent insurrection. As revolutionary workers our tactics cannot be that of violence in a time of such class consciousness. Because we will not get anywhere and we will drive people away from our ideas.

[Uncle Ho]

You don't need guns and bombs for direct action, but you do need a spine.

You can make a statement without blood running in the streets, but you can't do it just by waving a sign around.

[the last donut of the night]

The only difference is that the Vietnamese people had the courage to stand up and fight instead of letting the bourgeoisie continue to destroy them.

This is pretty stupid and offensive. You seem to know nothing about this subject entirely, and you dismiss the Irish working class completely -- as if you knew what they should do, or what is in their interests.

This has nothing to do with courage: it has to do, as I said, with two completely different levels of class-consciousness and economic and social conditions. Your analysis is devoid of any Marxist thought.




What they need, then, is leadership. Someone to revolutionize them again.

Oh, because the revolution comes from the party and not the working class....?

It's not parties that create class conflict, or the revolutionary spirit.


The Irish, throughout their history, have had quite possibly the strongest revolutionary spirit, but now they are fattened up and blinded by the bourgeoisie lies. They've gotten so focused on chasing the carrot in front of their faces, they've missed the dagger behind them. The same could be said of most western workers these days.

And it's the workers' fault that they currently reside in the belly of the beast, as Che was once said?

Later in this post you say you're in America. So have you not one idea of how the revolutionary left rose to this country in the 30's, and was crushed down by the strongest wing of the bourgeoisie?

Propaganda here is enormous, and it is our jobs as leftists to take it down. It's not the workers' fault.




Yes, and this has never bothered real revolutionaries. Perhaps the solution is not outright violence, yet, but it is always something more than waving a sign around.


Which will be quickly forgotten the second it becomes inconvenient.


No, what they demonstrate is that the Proletariat will not destroy Capitalism. If they would, they'd be doing it, as opposed to waving signs. Protests show the rulers that the people are in control and being good little serfs. They show that their brainwashing campaigns have worked, and that the people have laid down their arms to exploit their brothers and sisters.



And the cowardly inactivity, willingness to bow the second a single iota of pressure is applied, seeming love of compromise, and dilluted, rudderless nature of the modern left has been depressing me for years.



As of right now, I'm slowly rehabilitating a broken ankle while I assist in the planning of more direct action (read: not sign waving) on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.


I am far too tired to respond individually to your little sprinkles of intelligence.

Your post is delusional at best. It is elitist, to say, because you paint the workers of Ireland (and the 'west') as foolish lambs. You dismiss protests and rallies, and by doing so, you show how utterly lost you are.

On one side, we have the social democrats, who preach nothing except peace. On the other, are people like you, who believe that if there isn't bloodshed on the first strike, it means the workers are stupid and spineless.

Your kind of thinking led to the Weather Underground, like many other groups of the same kind, bombed and killed, while the proletariat suffered without even knowing about the movements in the first place.

It is actually self-destructive.

[#FF0000]

Calling it: Uncle Ho is a cop.

[the last donut of the night]

Calling it: Uncle Ho is a cop.

:rolleyes: The bourgeois state has much more urgent things to take care of than this website.

Like oppressing the working class, perhaps?

[What Would Durruti Do?]

When I saw "blast" I thought they were doing something useful instead of sign waving.

Disappointed again, it seems.

well I guess if 70,000 people did it at once it would be something, but usually bombing stuff is a one-man show and serves no purpose in the end.

[9]

:rolleyes: The bourgeois state has much more urgent things to take care of than this website.

Like oppressing the working class, perhaps?

You think that oppressing the working class and monitoring the internet are mutually exclusive? Perhaps you are unaware, but a member of this website got a visit from the cops as a result of things said here.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/police-monitoring-website-t117701/index.html

[Uncle Ho]

It is possible, you know, to have effective direct actions without gunning anyone down. There are lots of things you can do which will harm your oppressor without any guns or bombs.

Waving signs around is not one of these things, and when people do it, it reeks of half-hearted feelgood actions.

[the last donut of the night]

You think that oppressing the working class and monitoring the internet are mutually exclusive? Perhaps you are unaware, but a member of this website got a visit from the cops as a result of things said here.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/police-monitoring-website-t117701/index.html


I know what happened, but I doubt that the police creates account to just spy on us. They have much more urgent stuff to take care of; however, it's still a possibility.

[the last donut of the night]

Waving signs around is not one of these things, and when people do it, it reeks of half-hearted feelgood actions.

Do you think the workers' struggle ends after the protest?

:rolleyes:

[Uncle Ho]

Do you think the workers' struggle ends after the protest?

:rolleyes:

No, because this manner of protest is so ineffective that their struggle will never end until they abandon it.

[the last donut of the night]

No, because this manner of protest is so ineffective that their struggle will never end until they abandon it.

We all see that violence will be necessary at some point. However, violence at this point is stupid, unnecessary, and probably counterrevolutionary.

Why?

Well, seeing that the class-consciousness of the workers in Ireland is pretty low, any violent actions won't have the mass support of the native proletariat. A bomb would go off, some high-ranking person would die, the media would create a veritable uproar over it (imagine the headlines, "communists lust for blood", editorials with titles like "the conservatives were right"), and working class people would be scapegoated.

But in the end, the working class would continue its day, thinking their only option is capitalism.

Now, it won't work. That's it.

[Uncle Ho]

Like I've said, you don't need to put the bourgeoisie to the firing squad to make a statement. There are lots of other things you could do, and waving signs is not one of these things.

[LeninBalls]

Like I've said, you don't need to put the bourgeoisie to the firing squad to make a statement. There are lots of other things you could do, and waving signs is not one of these things.

Like shooting walls, smashing some shit for the people, throwing molotovs at dust bins, blowing up empty cars?

[Uncle Ho]

No, that would be useless.


-post edited. Explanation sent in PM. -Plagueround.

[cyu]

Like shooting walls, smashing some shit for the people, throwing molotovs at dust bins, blowing up empty cars?

Excerpt from bloodless revolution (http://everything2.com/user/gate/writeups/bloodless+revolution):

Occupations and Takeovers

These movements often have the potential to result in some violence, even if violence is not the actual intent. In order for an occupation or takeover to work, the occupiers need to be able to make use of whatever it is they are occupying - which means this is usually the employees of a company or organization that are involved.

Non-Violent Occupations
In these occupations, employees assume democratic control over their places of work. If they are unmolested, then they carry on doing the work of the companies or organizations. However, because the companies are now controlled by different people, significant change may sweep the country. If they are attacked, either by police or hired thugs, those engaged in non-violence would either run, allow themselves to be arrested, or allow themselves to be beaten.

Takeovers with Self-Defence
This is similar to the non-violent scenario above, except that the revolutionaries are willing to use self-defence. As long as they are unmolested, they are virtually indistinguishable from the non-violent (except, perhaps, for the presence of weapons on the premises) - they merely carry on changing the behavior of the organizations they now control. However, when attacked, the "revolution" would no longer be bloodless. Thus it falls in the hands of the attackers to determine whether the revolution would be bloodless or not.

[PRC-UTE]

Discussions will naturally veer off a bit and that's okay but this has gone a bit far. Please reign in some of the personal insults and off topic comments. You comrades can start a dicussion in practice on violent v nonviolent tactics in practice.