New North Korean constitution...

[zubovskyblvd]

I know that comrades here will have many different opinions on the DPRK, but I thought it was interesting that the latest constitution, just adopted, has dropped all references to 'communism', continuing the general trend that has been occurring since the early '90s in removing references to Marxism-Leninism, dictatorship of the proletariat etc. Does anyone think the DPRK might be preparing to completely shed its socialist legacy?

english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2009/09/25/2009092500395.html

[Revy]

It's a military junta.

Has effectively been so ever since Lil' Kim took over. this is just making it official.

[scarletghoul]

Yeah this is pretty interesting.

It's certainly not a junta though, the Army seems to be a peoples' army. Most people go through military training and stuff.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I see they are a good half a century behind with the paperwork:D

[BobKKKindle$]

Yeah this is pretty interesting.

It's certainly not a junta though, the Army seems to be a peoples' army. Most people go through military training and stuff.

So do most Israelis. Is the IDF a "people's army"?


Does anyone think the DPRK might be preparing to completely shed its socialist legacy?


What socialist legacy?

[Revy]

The functions of the state completely changed during Kim Jong-il's inherited rule. The Songun (Military First) policy was developed, Kim Jong-il was not the President of Korea but the "Chairman of the National Defense Commission". It changed from bureaucratized Party rule to bureaucratized military rule.

[Axle]

This changes exactly nothing, it just officially confirms that its been years since the DPRK has been anything even remotely resembling socialism.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

North Korean leader Kim Jong-il apparently explained the deletion of the word "communism" from the country's constitution, which was revised in April. "It is difficult to comprehend communism. I will try to get socialism right," Kim was reported as saying by a spokesman for the state-run Minju Chosun newspaper.

Kim said recently that he will "work on socialism in earnest," while characterizing communism as "hard to fulfill"

North Korean official explained, "Communism is meant to have a one-class society which does not distinguish the class that exploits from the one that is exploited. But it is hard for the system to exist as long as American imperialism persists."Interesting...

[Revy]

This changes exactly nothing, it just officially confirms that its been years since the DPRK has been anything even remotely resembling socialism.

There is still a centrally planned economy, which is changing, for the worse, as North Korea takes the route of China and Vietnam, economic (but not political) liberalization. If this were not true there would be no Kaesong Industrial Region, a planned city where South Korean companies will be free to exploit the labor of North Koreans.

[Tatarin]

I'm afraid Kim Jon Il is the only one standing in the way of complete liberalization of their economy. Once he is gone, I'm pretty sure a Xiaoping-like character will emerge to "rearrange" North Korea. Juche, pictures of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il will still be there, the KWP will still be there, but as mentioned above and seen in Laos, Vietnam and China, planning will be replaced by "freedom".

However, the North Koreans themselves may have one or the other thing to say once this happens. With capitalism on only 11% approval, people might start looking for other ways...

[Q]

I welcome this change on an ideological level. At least it makes things clear that North-Korea has little to nothing to do with socialism. It avoids further miseducation of layers of working class people.

I'm interested in how the pro-DPRK people think about this though, how do they find their way out of the glaring contradiction?

On the level of working class people living in North-Korea, this is a big setback as it opens the way to the introduction of a free market and further liberalisation where this isn't the case yet. I expect this will entail drama for workers like it has in China.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

sounds like north korea finally got a dictionary. i was wondering if that or cell phones would come first

[Revy]

sounds like north korea finally got a dictionary. i was wondering if that or cell phones would come first

Was that comment really necessary? Actually, North Korea has the technology for cell phones and the Internet. However, only government-owned websites are allowed, at least for everyone who's not a bureaucrat or high-ranking military officer.

in b4 someone posts the infamous satellite photo:rolleyes:

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Hopefully now the DPRK supporters will accept that the DPRK is neither working towards socialism nor socialist.

[Robespierre2.0]

The DPRK is still socialist and should still be supported.

[Искра]

I think that we should start to play game: "How long will take North Korea to become capitalist like South Korea".

I'll say until leader dies ;)

[Pogue]

The DPRK is still socialist and should still be supported.

And the Pope is a Protestant, yeh?

[Dimentio]

There is still a centrally planned economy, which is changing, for the worse, as North Korea takes the route of China and Vietnam, economic (but not political) liberalization. If this were not true there would be no Kaesong Industrial Region, a planned city where South Korean companies will be free to exploit the labor of North Koreans.

Well, I don't know how it could turn any worse?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Mysterious lack of CPGB-ML replies in here.

:laugh:

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Mysterious lack of CPGB-ML replies in here.

:laugh:

:laugh: The thing is, I'm sure they'll still blindly support the regime there. There is something about dictators that the bourgeois media condemn that is so attractive to them

[cb9's_unity]

Considering the M-L's could ignore accept blatant authoritarianism, mysticism, and Juche in general, its probably likely they'll find some way to apologize for this clear detachment from even socialist rhetoric.

M-L's just need to wait for Kim to die. That way when the next guy takes power they can call him a Khrushchev or a Deng and rest assured knowing that it was nothing but a dirty revisionist who ruined everything.

[Искра]

Considering the M-L's could ignore accept blatant authoritarianism, mysticism, and Juche in general, its probably likely they'll find some way to apologize for this clear detachment from even socialist rhetoric.

M-L's just need to wait for Kim to die. That way when the next guy takes power they can call him a Khrushchev or a Deng and rest assured knowing that it was nothing but a dirty revisionist who ruined everything.

Ha ha ha ha :lol:

[communard resolution]

Interesting...

Isn't he essentially saying that as long as US imperialism persists, North Korea will remain a country where one class exploits another? There really is no two ways to read the quote you cited.

[Olerud]

Yeah even as a Marxist-Leninist it seems like the CPGB M-L will support ANYTHING. I mean Zimbabwe... seriously...

[OrganisedRandomness]

North Korean leader Kim Jong-il apparently explained the deletion of the word "communism" from the country's constitution, which was revised in April. "It is difficult to comprehend communism. I will try to get socialism right," Kim was reported as saying by a spokesman for the state-run Minju Chosun newspaper.

Kim said recently that he will "work on socialism in earnest," while characterizing communism as "hard to fulfill"

North Korean official explained, "Communism is meant to have a one-class society which does not distinguish the class that exploits from the one that is exploited. But it is hard for the system to exist as long as American imperialism persists."

Very interesting... does anyone else think that this quote show's Kim's lack of understanding when it comes to Marxism-Leninism?

By the way, I noticed that the link to the "Juche library" broke in the theory section - you can find it on the Korean Friendship Association's website. Plenty of books by Kim there if anybody's interested in looking at the ideology...

[LeninBalls]

Considering the M-L's could ignore accept blatant authoritarianism, mysticism, and Juche in general, its probably likely they'll find some way to apologize for this clear detachment from even socialist rhetoric.

M-L's just need to wait for Kim to die. That way when the next guy takes power they can call him a Khrushchev or a Deng and rest assured knowing that it was nothing but a dirty revisionist who ruined everything.

Could you like, not be a total shithead and stop assuming all MLists support DPRK and even the ones that do, stop assuming that they think it's socialist, thanks.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Was that comment really necessary? Actually, North Korea has the technology for cell phones and the Internet. However, only government-owned websites are allowed, at least for everyone who's not a bureaucrat or high-ranking military officer.

in b4 someone posts the infamous satellite photo:rolleyes:

Yes, when speaking about such a joke of a state, I think humor is warranted. But that's just my opinion, sorry if it wasn't your style of humor.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It seems to me that anti-imperialist dictators are to anti-revisionists, as Che is to those hippies who support him because 'he looks cool' or something. Complete lack of understanding of the issue.

Having said that, I do have a nice little Che sweatband for the gym:blink:

[The Deepest Red]

Yeah even as a Marxist-Leninist it seems like the CPGB M-L will support ANYTHING. I mean Zimbabwe... seriously...

And poor little, innocent China apparently needs defending from imperialism...

[The Deepest Red]

...speaking of which. :blink:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuWNlFkrihQ)

[cb9's_unity]

Could you like, not be a total shithead and stop assuming all MLists support DPRK and even the ones that do, stop assuming that they think it's socialist, thanks.

I apologize but there is quite a large portion that do. I'm pleased that there are exceptions, but too many times have I seen the overwhelming amount of M-L's support North Korea, and while at best the will admit that it is not complete socialism, they still apologize for it nonetheless. That is my real problem with them, they can forgive the North for almost anything. Whatever they want to call it is irrelevant, that they support it in any degree is what is the most shameful.

So I guess I'll stop being a "shithead" when some of the members of this board start demanding democracy, workers control, and actual socialism in the country's they go around supporting.

[manic expression]

I think people are making a bit too much hay out of changed language. When ownership of property begins to take on a new character, or when the state gives up its monopoly on trade, let me know. Until then, this is a change of language. We should of course analyze whatever developments occur in the DPRK, but this all is a big overreaction.

It's funny, when the DPRK employs socialist rhetoric, everyone calls them liars, and when they don't, it's suddenly indisputable evidence of an absence of socialism. I guess some people just have their minds made up.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Considering the M-L's could ignore accept blatant authoritarianism, mysticism, and Juche in general, its probably likely they'll find some way to apologize for this clear detachment from even socialist rhetoric.

M-L's just need to wait for Kim to die. That way when the next guy takes power they can call him a Khrushchev or a Deng and rest assured knowing that it was nothing but a dirty revisionist who ruined everything.
It already turned revisionists when they adapt Juche and Songun policy. We still defend it as anti-imperialist, but that pretty much it is.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Why would you defend it as anti-imperialist?

It is one of the only nations I can think of whose people suffer more than under capitalism. You are completely blind to this.

Moreover, if faced with true socialists, the ruling elite in the DPRK would fight against that cause with venom.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Why would you defend it as anti-imperialist?It is anti-imperialist because it does not want to impose trade rights on other and will help for free if request. They do not express to support resource exploitation.


It is one of the only nations I can think of whose people suffer more than under capitalism. You are completely blind to this. Suffering? They are suffering because they are facing embargo and attack from USA, even the USA lowers the food supply after NKs accepted their deals so that why you see INSANE from the media. THE USA will do anything to crush the regime. The recent view on North Korea by visitors said that NK government are working hard to help people with limited resource they are having right now. They are giving job to everyone, they are improving the infrastructure, nevertheless they suffer, but at least they are trying rather than doing nothing at all. Until your idealists prevailed, I will not wait for it.


Moreover, if faced with true socialists, the ruling elite in the DPRK would fight against that cause with venom. It is not about paradise (only idealists think of paradise while I go on reality rather than looking up social realism) or not, the situation is very complicate. Do I support Juche/Songun policy? No, but do I defend it from idiots? Yes.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Ah right yes, here you go calling anybody who disagrees with you an idiot. I don't need to run off my academic credentials to someone so narrow minded.

You are ignoring the fact that the Juche 'ideology' is about self-sufficience. The DPRK is indeed hated by the US who no doubt try to undermine the state. However, the root cause of the DPRK's problems is the DPRK ideology.

If your hypothesis was true then tiny little Cuba would have become a failed state years ago.

[Bright Banana Beard]

You are ignoring the fact that the Juche 'ideology' is about self-sufficience. The DPRK is indeed hated by the US who no doubt try to undermine the state. However, the root cause of the DPRK's problems is the DPRK ideology.However, the Juche departs Marxism terminology and it was founded on entirely on Korean consciousness.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Does not change the fact that the DPRK ruling elite has brought its problems upon the people by choosing a militarised, self-sufficient path.

Would you care to address the points of my previous post, or accept defeat this time?

[Ismail]

Does not change the fact that the DPRK ruling elite has brought its problems upon the people by choosing a militarised, self-sufficient path.As opposed to a vulnerable, dependent path?

Not defending Juche, but there's nothing wrong with self-reliance.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Does not change the fact that the DPRK ruling elite has brought its problems upon the people by choosing a militarised, self-sufficient path.


What problems have they brought to the people?
If they go "militarized," they were defending themselves from imperialism.
Are you saying they shouldn't oppose USA at all?

[Ismail]

As Hoxha noted in 1976:

The People's Socialist Republic of Albania which, as the draft-Constitution proclaims, resolutely upholds the principle of self-determination of nations and the exercise of complete national sovereignty, rejects any form of limitation of sovereignty in any field whatever.

In sanctioning this stand, which stems directly from the line of our Party, the draft-Constitution proclaims: «Nobody, apart from the organs expressively defined in this Constitution, can exercise the sovereignty of the people and any of its attributes in the People's Socialist Republic of Albania and in its name.» With this provision of the laws we not only give a firm reply to the false bourgeois «theories» that consider sovereignty as an «anachronistic concept», a «source of evil in the world today», etc., but we also categorically refute the «theory» of the Soviet revisionists about "limited sovereignty», in favour of the «supreme interest» of the so-called socialist community.

Every state that respects itself and others has its norms which guide it in its friendly relations. These norms differ according to the world outlook of each state. None can impose its norms on another. A thing that is agreeable or suitable to one regime may not be agreeable or suitable to another. No state leaves its opinions and viewpoints in obscurity, without expressing them, even in critical and polemical form, towards another state. It is logical that there should be truly sovereign slates, like ours, that have not agreed and do not agree to obey the «conductor's baton» and no other.

If there are some who want to accept the «conductor's baton» or «the big stick», that is their affair, but our Constitution and our ideology allow and oblige us to oppose such pressures that violate the interests of our socialist state and its peoples. Our Constitution sanctions in a clear-cut manner that no one can give himself the right to exercise sovereignty and seek «aid» in order to justify any intervention in Albania on the part of its imperialist, revisionist, reactionary, or other enemies. In this way we eliminate the possibility of attempts to disguise and justify the aggression that US-led imperialism and Soviet social-imperialism, which conduct an aggressive policy, want to practice. Practice of this kind, which the peoples and history must never forget, are the occupation of Czechoslovakia by the revisionist Soviet Union in 1968, and the aggressive wars and the rapacious interventions which US imperialism has perpetrated in Asia, Africa, Latin America, the Middle East, etc.

US imperialism and Soviet social-imperialism and their lackeys express «concern» about how socialist Albania will live and develop relying on its own forces without taking credits from the capitalists. We shall advance on the basis of our own strength. Time and the undeniable reality of our country, the great achievements in the economy, education and culture have confirmed this determination. We have different concepts about aid in the form of credits that a state receives from abroad. On one hand, there is the aid granted by a fraternal socialist state and, on the other, the credits provided by the imperialists, social-imperialists and capitalists. The former is fraternal disinterested aid, free of political pressure, not linked with passing circumstances, whereas the aim of credits provided by imperialism, social-imperialism and world capitalism, in whatever form they are given, is to violate the freedom, independence and sovereignty of the peoples of different countries, by putting them under continuous political pressure.

Our country has never accepted and never will accept such enslaving credits which are nothing else but forms of neo-colonialism. A socialist state like ours with its most democratic Constitution cannot fail to be on good friendly terms with the peoples of the world.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

As opposed to a vulnerable, dependent path?

Not defending Juche, but there's nothing wrong with self-reliance.

Nothing wrong with attainable self-reliance.

We all know what is going on inside the DPRK. This isn't anti-communist propaganda as is the case with Cuba and even was the case with the USSR, we should widely accept that it is folly to defend a regime where people are simply going hungry.

Unless you are a proponent of socialism in one country, you should not be wary of vulnerability in one country. You lose little if you are defending one nation's revolution, as opposed to inspiring revolution in many countries.

[Ismail]

Unless you are a proponent of socialism in one country, you should not be wary of vulnerability in one country. You lose little if you are defending one nation's revolution, as opposed to inspiring revolution in many countries.The DPRK is a revisionist state and will not be of much use in exporting "socialism" unless it is of the revisionist, pseudo-socialist Juche kind. Its progressive nature comes from enjoying good relations with many Arab and African states (where the myth of "THE DPRK HATES EVERYONE LOL" falls apart). As for socialism in one country, I side with Lenin.

"There is one, and only one, kind of real internationalism, and that is—working whole-heartedly for the development of the revolutionary movement and the revolutionary struggle in one’s own country, and supporting (by propaganda, sympathy, and material aid) this struggle, this, and only this, line, in every country without exception."
(Lenin, The Tasks of the Proletariat in Our Revolution, 1917 in Collected Works, Vol. 24, Progress Publishers, 1964.)

"…when we are told that the victory of socialism is possible only on a world scale, we regard this merely as an attempt, a particularly hopeless attempt, on the part of the bourgeoisie and its voluntary and involuntary supporters to distort the irrefutable truth. The 'final' victory of socialism in a single country is of course impossible". (V.I. Lenin: CW. Vol.26; p470)

"If you are unable to adapt yourself, if you are not inclined to crawl on your belly in the mud, you are not a revolutionary but a chatterbox; and I propose this, not because I like it, but because we have no other road, because history has not been kind enough to bring the revolution to maturity everywhere simultaneously." (Lenin, Political Report of the CC to the Extraordinary Seventh Congress of the RCP(B), March 7 1918, Collected Works, Vol 27).

I also side with Lenin when he says:
"At the end of 1903, Trotsky was an ardent Menshevik, i. e., he deserted from the Iskrists to the Economists. He said that 'between the old Iskra and the new lies a gulf.' In 1904-05, he deserted the Mensheviks and occupied a vacillating position, now co-operating with Martynov (the Economist), now proclaiming his absurdly Left 'permanent revolution' theory."
(Vladimir Lenin. "Disruption of Unity Under Cover of Outcries for Unity." Prosveshcheniye, no. 5 (1914) in Lenin, Collected Works, vol. 20. Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1972.)

[Искра]

If North Korea iconographic was fascist you'll judge it. Still, North Korea is militarised as every average fascist regime from Franco's to Mussolini's...
If we were talking about fascist regime you'll talk how people have to suffer because of militarisation, oppression, ruling of upper military class (junta)...
You talk about anti-imperialism. What about South Korean imperialism? Comrade mentioned South Korean factories etc. Does North Korean system really stands against imperialism? Or do they really fight American imperialism?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I don't think enjoying good relations with arab countries makes the DPRK 'progressive' at all. It simply means it is part of a cohort which rejects western-style capitalism.

It's level of progressiveness should be how it treats its citizens, in which case it judges very poorly.

[Ismail]

I don't think enjoying good relations with arab countries makes the DPRK 'progressive' at all. It simply means it is part of a cohort which rejects western-style capitalism.The point is that it is anti-imperialist. Back in the 60's, 70's and 80's it did quite a bit for African countries and African independence, for example. It helped train the armies of Tanzania, Uganda, Libya, Zimbabwe, etc.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

That isn't the point.

I don't really think that training Zanu-PF is something to be proud of. Not all national-liberation movements are to be held in high regard.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I suppose you would prefer it if the whites still controlled Zimbabwe then, yes?

[Ismail]

The new articles in the constitution: http://leonidpetrov.wordpress.com/2009/10/12/dprk-has-quietly-amended-its-constitution/

The KFA defends (http://www.korea-dpr.com/forum/?p=252) the new constitution (obviously):


Changes in Constitution of the DPR of Korea
14th October Juche 98 (2009)

Recently in the international media, there has been a big propaganda campaign explaining about changes made to the DPRK Socialist Constitution.
Most of the news that are published come from unreliable sources, including CNN or BBC. They gave reports that are completely fabricated, or at least, copied without verifying the information with DPRK sources.

There are only 3 main purposes on recent amendments in the DPRK constitution, in order to reflect the following:
1- The Great Leader KIM IL SUNG is the Eternal President of the DPR of Korea
2- To denominate 15th April (Birthday of the Great Leader KIM IL SUNG) as the SUN’S DAY .
3- The introduction of the JUCHE calendar

On that sense, the new constitution does not shows any changes in DPRK policy but is basically an update reflecting the wish and love of the Korean people towards President KIM IL SUNG.

Regarding lies written by many journalists and speculators should be clarified that:

1- The word COMMUNISM, has not been removed from the constitution. But it is noted that our main pragmatical goal for now is to develop SOCIALISM, then when the external factors will change (like end of Korean War and US hostilities) and SOCIALISM will reach its maturity, COMMUNISM will then become accessible.
2- The term MARXISM-LENINISM was not included in the last DPRK Constitution. So it can never be removed because was already not in it.

Alejandro Cao de Benos
Special Delegate
Committee for Cultural Relations with Foreign Countries
President of the KFA / IKBC

[Revy]

The Juche calendar, ugh. Where Year 1 is the year Kim Il-sung was born, 1912 (Kim Il-sung was also born on the same day the Titanic sank). Not the foundation of the DPRK, no, not even that, Kim Il-sung's birth.

If you google "Pyongyang Times", there's a site run by the DPRK. The site was down the last time I checked, but in their "Juche Course", they refer to Kim Jong-il as an "incarnation of benevolence". That's not even going into all the various examples of religious language, "faith/immortal/eternal/spiritual". We're not talking about passing metaphorical uses of these words, they are everywhere in this "Juche course".

[Ismail]

Enver Hoxha called Kim Il Sung a "vacillating revisionist megalomaniac" in Reflections on China.

[KC]

Edit

[Incendiarism]

Kim is the korean version of gorbachev

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

North Korean leader Kim Jong-il apparently explained the deletion of the word "communism" from the country's constitution, which was revised in April. "It is difficult to comprehend communism. I will try to get socialism right," Kim was reported as saying by a spokesman for the state-run Minju Chosun newspaper.

Kim said recently that he will "work on socialism in earnest," while characterizing communism as "hard to fulfill"

North Korean official explained, "Communism is meant to have a one-class society which does not distinguish the class that exploits from the one that is exploited. But it is hard for the system to exist as long as American imperialism persists."

I think this more or less explains it.

[Ismail]

I love this all-or-nothing attitude that so many on both sides of the revolutionary spectrum hold.Except ZANU was the only actual national liberation movement that had any mass basis among the people.

It's one thing to be critical of anti-colonialist movements who hold support only from a section of the people and where the anti-colonialist/national liberation struggle has many choices and ideologies fighting (like in Angola or Ethiopia, or Palestine), but it's another to go "Neither the white supremacist government of Ian Smith or ZANU! But instead... the, uh..." when pretty much everyone backed ZANU. It was fine to be a critic of ZANU's policies during that period, but to actually go in and sabotage/combat said policies was to objectively aid the Rhodesian regime.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It doesn't matter who rules Zimbabwe, the people are not better off either way, and have no prospect of being better off. So it doesn't really matter whether a racist, whites-only regime or an equally racist 'national-liberation' government is in power.

[Lumpen Bourgeois]

I'm interested in how the pro-DPRK people think about this though, how do they find their way out of the glaring contradiction?


Well, I went to a korean karaoke bar once. I don't know if that counts as support for DPRK, but let me take a shot at defending it anyway.

Okay ,well the U.S. Constitution doesn't mention capitalism, yet it is still a capitalist country, right?

So... That means that, even if North Korea decides to remove the word "communism" and any references to it from the constitution doesn't mean that it isn't a communist country, right?

Therefore, North Korea must be a communist country. It just follows logically from the premises. No fair-minded person could challenge my reasoning.

Take that revisonist/liberal swine!!! North Korea is once again absolved!!!

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

The fact the word "Communism" isn't mentioned in the constitution doesn't change anything to the structure of the North Korean nation itself.
As for as I know, no capitalist country ever mentions in its constitution to be a capitalist state.

[chegitz guevara]

Self-reliance is the antithesis of socialism. Socialism is all for one and one for all, everyone relies on everyone else and helps everyone else. You cannot get any further from socialism than self-reliance.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Except self-reliance as a society (Juche, socialism) is the polar opposite of self-reliance as an human being (individualism, capitalism).

[Stranger Than Paradise]

The Juche calendar, ugh. Where Year 1 is the year Kim Il-sung was born, 1912 (Kim Il-sung was also born on the same day the Titanic sank). Not the foundation of the DPRK, no, not even that, Kim Il-sung's birth.

If you google "Pyongyang Times", there's a site run by the DPRK. The site was down the last time I checked, but in their "Juche Course", they refer to Kim Jong-il as an "incarnation of benevolence". That's not even going into all the various examples of religious language, "faith/immortal/eternal/spiritual". We're not talking about passing metaphorical uses of these words, they are everywhere in this "Juche course".

Yes it is, well what I would call, crazy. Ultimate cult of personality. The DPRK's aim was to make him into a religious, unquestionable figure. And at least amongst some people on this board it has worked. I cannot really debate with anyone about Communism if they don't think this indoctrination and brainwashing is something which is fundamentally wrong.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Except self-reliance as a society (Juche, socialism) is the polar opposite of self-reliance as an human being (individualism, capitalism).

The enemy of our enemy is not always our friend.

You and those few dozen that constitute the CPGB-ML would do well to remember that.

I'm sure that if you were forced to live under the DPRK's Juche system, you would be going barmy attacking all its ills, yet because you are sat behind your computer somewhere (relatively) comfortable in the west, and may/may not have been on a tightly regulated tour of the country, you feel like you are justified in advocating friendship to a nation that is the antithesis of Capitalism, only because even the modest social freedoms afforded by the Capitalist mode would cause the downfall of the Kim dynasty's hegemony on power.

[Ismail]

It doesn't matter who rules Zimbabwe, the people are not better off either way, and have no prospect of being better off. So it doesn't really matter whether a racist, whites-only regime or an equally racist 'national-liberation' government is in power.Please tell me where Mugabe sought to keep whites intentionally undereducated and forced them into "protection" camps. Also tell me how the blacks exploit the whites in Zimbabwe.

[Dragonsign]

North Korea is just a joke...

I hope that one day the people of NK will rise up and kick that facist junta out.
Maybe then they will start to produce more food and less arms.

[spiltteeth]

North Korea is just a joke...

I hope that one day the people of NK will rise up and kick that facist junta out.
Maybe then they will start to produce more food and less arms.

Considering colin Powell has said the US is going to burn N. Korea into a "charcoaled wasteland" and the US has surrounded N. Korea with 10's of thousands of troops in S. Korea , Japan, and has battleships off the coast pointing nuclear weapons right at it; the minute N. Korea starts making less weapons they are all dead.

[LeninBalls]

I think this more or less explains it.

Sounds kinda bullshit to me. I mean, just because something is hard to achieve doesn't mean one should drop all references and original endorsements to it. I think socialism is hard to achieve, but do I stop calling myself a socialist? That I do not.