Reclaim the game!- Fifa Shifts goalposts

[Coggeh]

Good take on the latest nail in the coffin of the nostalgia about the ''peoples game''.

Taken from socialist party website:

The Republic of Ireland(and other lower seeded teams) face an uphill struggle to qualify for the 2010 World Cup following a controversial ruling by football’s governing body. FIFA has seeded the teams in the World Cup play-offs to ensure that the big countries have an easy as possible passage to next summer's tournament. The reason for this is simply- Profit. FIFA is bending the rules to maximize the qualification chances of countries such as France and Russia as their large population will guarantee high advertising and sponsorship revenues.


Football’s money men are also desperate for big name players like Cristiano Ronaldo and Thierry Henry to be there in 2010 as it will boost TV ratings in a way that Kevin Kilbane and Bosnia’s Sasa Papic won’t. The supporters of Ireland, Bosnia, Slovenia and the Ukraine all have a right to feel angered by this rigged draw. So much for FIFA’s claims to support “Fair Play”.


This is just another example of the rotten role capitalism plays in sport and especially football. In Britain and Ireland many working class families can no longer afford to watch premiership football on TV never mind attend the games! Sport under capitalism is organized for the benefit of the millionaires and not for the millions.


For more : www.socialistparty.net (http://www.socialistparty.net)

[Stranger Than Paradise]

The seeding for the play-offs is absolutely ridiculous and it is obvious the capitalist class want to manipulate it as much as possible.

[RedAnarchist]

Currently, 23 teams have qualified, and many are big footballing powers, including the top 7 nations in world rankings, although some smaller nations such as North Korea and countries where football is not that popular, such as the USA, have qualified. The lowest team to have qualified is North Korea, who are 91st out of over 200 nations in the rankings, followed by the hosts South Africa, who are currently 85th. Most of the countries who have already qualified have populations of 20 million or more, which dwarfs the populations of many nations where football is popular and the teams are good enough to play in the World Cup, such as Ireland (which has a population of around 4 million).

The World Cup was first created with the intention of bringing together football teams from across the world, although the first one had only 13 teams who were mostly from South America and Europe. Now it is just a stage for multinational corporations and the stars of football, rather than the festival of football that it should be.

[Wanted Man]

Well, Devrim pointed out in another thread in the Sports forum that seeding of this kind does not just happen in the play-offs. In the qualification group, it's the same story. For instance, Holland winning every single match in their group because Norway and Scotland were their toughest opponents. Or how about club football, the CL group stage? It is largely constructed the way it is to give the advantage to the usual English, Spanish and Italian top teams.

Of course, this play-off seeding is particularly vile because it was only announced after the fact, and because it's so open. But top football is basically a toy for the nouveaux riches anyway. It's incredibly exciting, but there is not much fair competition to speak of.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Well, Devrim pointed out in another thread in the Sports forum that seeding of this kind does not just happen in the play-offs. In the qualification group, it's the same story. For instance, Holland winning every single match in their group because Norway and Scotland were their toughest opponents. Or how about club football, the CL group stage? It is largely constructed the way it is to give the advantage to the usual English, Spanish and Italian top teams.

Of course, this play-off seeding is particularly vile because it was only announced after the fact, and because it's so open. But top football is basically a toy for the nouveaux riches anyway. It's incredibly exciting, but there is not much fair competition to speak of.

Yes seeding exists at every level of the competition and all knockout competitions these days and as you say it is particularly ridiculous to seed the play offs because each time has finished second and should be treated equally as such. What is the difference between this sort of seeding and rewarding bigger teams more points per win?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The world cup still brings together 32 teams, we should not forget. Capitalism clearly distorts certain areas of football - 'competition' rules which bring about rogue companies such as Setanta and ESPN really are ridiculous - according to capitalist theory, competition is meant to drive prices down, yet I constantly find that due to this competition ruling, I am constantly missing sports games because they are broadcast on ESPN. Ridiculous. And it is obvious to all that many sports clubs/franchises/groups are owned by businessmen seeking a profit; attending sports games these days is a joke. I can only go 5 or 6 times per season to see my team because a trip, including travel, lunch etc., will often set me back £50+.

However, I do think the FIFA World Cup is still an excellent celebration of the sport - we have the likes of Brazil and Argentina, in addition to the South (and this year North) Koreans, South Africa, Ghana, Nigeria and the like all showcasing their talent, despite not being hugely developed capitalist nations. I do agree there are problems, as you highlight with the seeding, but there is still a wide variety of talent on show, which is a credit to the sport, if not to the ruling bodies which are obviously corrupted and have narrow self interests.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

But the arguments not just about developed Capitalist nations being the capitalistic element of the world cup. It is about level of viewers and stuff like endorsements and sponsors. Because it is about having the most popular countries involved to get maximum profit out of the competition.

[Mindtoaster]

Soccer sucks anyway

http://www.memedepot.com/uploads/500/789_CoolFace.jpg

[Coggeh]

Soccer sucks anyway

http://www.memedepot.com/uploads/500/789_CoolFace.jpg
You suck , go hug a tree you l4d playing hippie ! ;)

[Irish commie]

Its dispicable. It makes me angry. But Ireland are going to beat france anyway :)

[Gravedigger01]

It should be the best 32 teams.At the moment the best 4 teams from Asia some teams from Africa and Some form the America's qualify.It should be the best 32 no matter what contnent there from.The World Cup would be dominated by European and South American teams but at least they could truly say its the best 32 teams in the world battling it out

[Pogue]

if ireland don't fuckin qualify cos of this fucked up shit i am seriously going to dedicate the rest of my life to bringing down fifa

[Stranger Than Paradise]

In light of this topic. It comes as no surprise that the ref and linesman chose to ignore the two players offside and the handball in the build up to a france goal which puts them ahead in extra time.

Fucking shameless.

[Wanted Man]

if ireland don't fuckin qualify cos of this fucked up shit i am seriously going to dedicate the rest of my life to bringing down fifa

Well, you can get started now. Holy shit. France just beat Ireland in the play-offs for the 2010 Basketball World Cup.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Well, you can get started now. Holy shit. France just beat Ireland in the play-offs for the 2010 Basketball World Cup.

:laugh:

Lucky bastards. I said right from the start, there's going to be a dodgy decision that'll go France's way, and what do you know.

[Wanted Man]

Here's a still of the equaliser again:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2hnulqa.jpg

[Bandito]

Fucking hell.
I didn't watch the Ireland game, but I just saw the video of the equaliser on YouTube(guess some pissed off irish hacker placed it immediately).
Disgrace.
First offside, and than handball. Henry could have picked up the ball and threw it in the net, I still think that the ref wouldn't see it. Who was the ref btw?
I can understand the financial reason why those capitalist scum from FIFA play their cards this way, but is there a limit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8woNGFj9fxM

[Chicano Shamrock]

Oh man the refs did Ireland nasty. I was going to say that us smaller soccer nations have to make sure we put teams away and don't leave any room for refs to call it another way but that was a disgrace.

Team USA gets it all the time. It's usually in the form of red cards though. In the 2006 WC against Italy we ended that game with only 8 players on the field. Some of it deserved but it happens to us a lot.

[Wanted Man]

Time to bring back Freedom Fries. Anyway, don't worry, we'll take care of them again with the miracle counter attack:

2x0sVXDpIm4

In fact, I absolutely want Holland play against France in the knock-out stages. Portugal have qualified as well, and if we don't get France, we'll probably have to play against them, and it will all end in tears as it always does. At least there's no Russia with Guus this time... But we don't want another one like this:

NeOoJ2SQTTo

[Devrim]

The Republic of Ireland(and other lower seeded teams) face an uphill struggle to qualify for the 2010 World Cup following a controversial ruling by football’s governing body. FIFA has seeded the teams in the World Cup play-offs to ensure that the big countries have an easy as possible passage to next summer's tournament. The reason for this is simply- Profit. FIFA is bending the rules to maximize the qualification chances of countries such as France and Russia as their large population will guarantee high advertising and sponsorship revenues.


Football’s money men are also desperate for big name players like Cristiano Ronaldo and Thierry Henry to be there in 2010 as it will boost TV ratings in a way that Kevin Kilbane and Bosnia’s Sasa Papic won’t. The supporters of Ireland, Bosnia, Slovenia and the Ukraine all have a right to feel angered by this rigged draw. So much for FIFA’s claims to support “Fair Play”.


This is just another example of the rotten role capitalism plays in sport and especially football. In Britain and Ireland many working class families can no longer afford to watch premiership football on TV never mind attend the games! Sport under capitalism is organized for the benefit of the millionaires and not for the millions.

Well of course professional football is a business, but then again it has by definition always been one. Of course the seeding was designed to ensure that the countries with the biggest 'pull' reached the World Cup.

The draw wasn't rigged though, and FIFA didn't change the rules. They hadn't announced any format previously, merely talked about what they would probably do. The fact that some teams looked like not qualifying automatically may well have influenced their decision, and in my opinion the competition rules should be clear before it starts whether it will be seeded or not. One can understand the Irish team feeling aggrieved, but they have not been 'cheated' on this.

I am not a big fan of international football. It doesn't come from a political 'anti-nationalist' thing, but more likely from coming from a country with, in my childhood, a very poor national football team, and my mother complaining about international football as it disturbed her routine of listening to the commentary, and results from the league on a Saturday afternoon while she did her ironing.

That said, I do watch the World Cup, and to be honest I would rather watch, as the article puts it, Cristiano Ronaldo or Thierry Henry than Kevin Kilbane.


The seeding for the play-offs is absolutely ridiculous and it is obvious the capitalist class want to manipulate it as much as possible.

It is no surprise that there is seeding though. Do you think that there should be no seeding at all? It could throw up WC qualifiers with one group containing Spain, Italy, France, Germany, and England, and another containing Malta, Andorra, Luxembourg, Faroes, and San Marino. It might be a great qualification group with all the big teams, but it would make for a poor World Cup.

In fact Ireland themselves benifited from the seeding system. For this tournament they were seeded in pot C. It should be noted that during the qualifying group, despite being unbeaten they only managed to beat teams that were seeded lower than them, Cyprus, and Georgia. Do people think that beating those two teams means a team deserves to get to the World Cup?

Of course, we could abolish seeding all together, and do the whole qualification proccess over two legged knockouts drawn at random from every enterent. 204 countries entered this World Cup, which would mean that a country would have to play two or three (some teams would have to be given a bye for the first round, at random of course) ties. That would mean that a team such as Montserrat (equally 203 in the FIFA rankings, a country so small that I used to work with the son of the islands baker). could reach the WC finals by beating equally ranked PNG, and American Samoa, both countries where the number one sport is Rugby of one code or the other is the national sport and the second sport the other code, and where people barely play football.

Do people really think that abolishing seeding is a good idea.


First offside, and than handball. Henry could have picked up the ball and threw it in the net, I still think that the ref wouldn't see it. Who was the ref btw?
I can understand the financial reason why those capitalist scum from FIFA play their cards this way, but is there a limit?

It was certainly a very dodgy goal, but things like this happen in football. Are you seriously suggesting though that FIFA told the ref to make sure France went through?

To summerize, yes, Ireland have certainly been unlucky, but they had ample chances to win the match in normal time, and at the end of the day that is how football is, and in my opinion is one of the reasons that it is exciting to watch. We certainly don't complain when decsions go the way of our team. The SP article is basically a piece aiming to attract people based on a feeling of patriotism.

Devrim

[ComradeOm]

To summerize, yes, Ireland have certainly been unlucky, but they had ample chances to win the match in normal time, and at the end of the day that is how football is, and in my opinion is one of the reasons that it is exciting to watchAre you suggesting that cheating should be considered an acceptable aspect of football?

[Devrim]

Are you suggesting that cheating should be considered an acceptable aspect of football?

People cheat in football at all levels, from holding shirts at corners, and stealing a few extra yards at a throw in up do diving for a penalty and handballing in goals. Of course if they are caught they are punished, yellow card for diving, red card for deliberate hand ball. It happens all the time though. Nobody is an angel.

Does it mean it is acceptable? I don't think it is really the point. It is virtually unstoppable, and without it we would have less to talk about in the pub.

Devrim

[RedAnarchist]

Ireland have asked FIFA for a replay, and I hope they get it, but I doubt FIFA will allow it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/8368100.stm

[Wanted Man]

I don't think replays can ever happen in cases like this. Indeed, FIFA have already rejected the Irish call for this. Unfortunate, but logical; otherwise, teams would be demanding replays for every bit of controversy. The only other answers are either video equipment, or sucking it up and accepting that shit happens. The latter alternative has been losing a lot of popularity, and more prominent figures in football have been calling for video equipment.

Not Platini though, and I can't see him changing his mind now. :p Hell, in this case, even those 5th officials would have been useful. You know, those guys in the Europa League who are freezing their arses off during the entire match, just to take a peek through the goal during set pieces. But then again, their capacity is only advisory, and if the linesman in this game couldn't even see the offside... :rolleyes:

Anyway, I don't think it's fair to claim that there is some kind of vast conspiracy, but the preferences of some major figures in football were well-known. The mere suggestion of a "conspiracy" could have been avoided.

[Coggeh]

Replays have been given in such cases , they had Bahrain and Uzbekistan replay for virtually the same reasons .I don't think a replay is going to do much good as I think the players wouldn't be up for having their away goal nulled in France as I'm sure would be the case in the case of a replay (I dunno) but still Ireland and others have been made to jump throw fifas hoops for a while now (passing every one) and then we go out to a blatant handball which should warrant a straight red but instead warrants France a place in the World Cup and not Ireland .


Bollocks to that

[ComradeOm]

Does it mean it is acceptable? I don't think it is really the point. It is virtually unstoppable, and without it we would have less to talk about in the pubSo why exactly do we have the laws of the game and that guy with the whistle? Are they just further obstacles for the players to negotiate? It is perfectly okay to cheat - and flagrantly disregard the spirit of the game - if you are able to get away with it?

[Devrim]

Replays have been given in such cases , they had Bahrain and Uzbekistan replay for virtually the same reasons .
I had never heard of this example before it came up in the media today. Thankfully it isn't common and, however, much people complain replays aren't forthcoming.

Whatever the injustice of a case, and in this one the goal should obviously have been disallowed, you can't start to revise the decisions of the ref afterwards. Where would it stop?

Law 5 is very clear on this:
The Authority of The Referee

Each match is controlled by a referee who has full authority to enforce the Laws of the Game in connection with the match to which he has been appointed.



Ireland have asked FIFA for a replay, and I hope they get it, but I doubt FIFA will allow it.

Hopefully not.

Devrim

[Devrim]

So why exactly do we have the laws of the game and that guy with the whistle? Are they just further obstacles for the players to negotiate? It is perfectly okay to cheat - and flagrantly disregard the spirit of the game - if you are able to get away with it?

If players cheat and get caught they are punished. The 'guy with the whistle' is the main person responsible for enforcing that.

I am not one to moralise about players cheating. Every team does it. Should it be different? Maybe it should, but that is the way it is.

Devrim

[ComradeOm]

I am not one to moralise about players cheating. Every team does it. Should it be different? Maybe it should, but that is the way it isWell in that case I suppose there's no point in complaining, pointing out injustices, or in any way seeking to improve the game. I just hope that you do not carry such a fatalist attitude into any other aspect of your life... if so you may be on the wrong forum

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I agree with you to some extent Devrim. I don't think there should be a replay because there have been many matches decided by as dubious decisions as we saw last night that have not been replayed. And although I agree with you that every team cheats we should still look to improve the game e.g. bring in video technology and to root out cheating from our game. The culture of cheating has to be reversed somehow, it is tarnishing our game.

[Andropov]

Nice to see the SP not even recognising the LoI in that article.

Anyway I fully agree with Devrims point on the replay.
It should not be given, it would be a dangerous precedent.
As for Devrims point on seeding I do disagree.
Anyway I am not too bothered tbh, id rather see my club win 3 points than see Ireland win the world cup. The whole dynamic of support for the Irish team in the past 20 years since the Jack Charlton era has morphed into a bandwagoning ole ole brigade. An absolute joke, just same old paddys any excuse for a piss up. Then having to watch RTE do the whole cringe worthy back clapping session of "the best fans in the world". My arse, the best people in the world to jump on the bandwagon of any success and move from their barstool in their local to a barstool in a foreign country.
Anyways, I will be in Tallaght on Sunday watching real grassroots Irish Football (soccer).

[ls]

The SP article is basically a piece aiming to attract people based on a feeling of patriotism.

Devrim

True, but the goal probably wasn't fair, at least, everyone in my school would think so, a thousand people on facebook and so many people I've generally heard talking in the street think so too. :p

But yep, I suppose the SP article does pander to patriotism a bit.

[Devrim]

Well in that case I suppose there's no point in complaining, pointing out injustices, or in any way seeking to improve the game. I just hope that you do not carry such a fatalist attitude into any other aspect of your life... if so you may be on the wrong forum

I suppose it depends on how you look at football. Do you see it as a modal for life or just another capitalist form of entertainment?

Although I enjoy football I don't see it as a anything more than another part of the entertainment business. I don't like the moralisers who are constantly attacking people's behaviour, and I don't think that cheating in a football match is that bad a thing to do. To a certain extent, the media relies on incidents like this for something to talk about, and football would be less interesting without them.

Basically it is a soap opera, and soap operas need a bad guy. Henry is this week's.

An example of this sort of behaviour in the media is the response to Alex Ferguson's recent comments on referees. I am sorry, but I can't get that upset about them, and think that all of the outrage is absurd especially as journalists comment that he did it to deflect attention from his team, and then continue to discuss his remarks about the ref instead of discussing his team.

Football would be less entertaining without these controversies. Meanwhile who in the media is talking about the fact that United have lost two of the last three, and only won two of the last five league games. If this happened to Rafa at Liverpool, the entire media would be screaming crisis. Oh it did. They are.

I don't think it is about 'fatalism'. I think that most people who watch football enjoy a bit of controversy, and football would be much duller without it.

Devrim

[Devrim]

As for Devrims point on seeding I do disagree.


What do you disagree with? What I said about it was that FIFA didn't change the rules. The rules hadn't been set. Yes, they adopted the rule more likely to favour the big teams. That is how football is. I think that some seeding is necessary in football, and wouldn't agree with it in this case. The rules of a competition though should certainly be made clear before it starts.

Devrim

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I see cheating as a natural part of any sport, but it's not a tolerable part of any sport. Henry should be penalised. Perhaps barred from going to S. Africa. Referee mistakes are also a natural part of any sport, but they're also just that, mistakes. They happen. They're an unavoidable part of the sport.

Players will always cheat. No way around that. The matter in question is the enforcement of rules. If the arbiters didn't see it, there is nothing that can be done. I do believe that there should be more referees on the field to better enforce the rules. It's absurd to suggest that TV comentators should have any part in the enforcement of the rules. Their role is to comment on the game, the players and the refs, not wield the whistle.

[ComradeOm]

I suppose it depends on how you look at football. Do you see it as a modal for life or just another capitalist form of entertainment?I see football, as I do any sport, as a game with rules. The rules are there to provide a level playing field and thus maximise entertainment. When those rules are broken, as they were on Saturday, it devalues the entire experience* by betraying the fundamental truth of sport - winners and losers are determined by the players themselves. When this is not the case (ie, a player deliberately breaks the rules in order to gain an advantage or the outcome is rigged from the start) then it makes a mockery of the entire concept. You might was well turn to the staged WWE 'sports entertainment'

So yes, I do feel that abiding by the rules is a fundamental aspect of football. It is not that I see football (or, God forbid, footballers) as "models for life" but I do very much subscribe to the notion of fair play. The latter is, ironically, best encapsulated by the FIFA Fair Play Code (http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/worldwideprograms/footballforhope/fairplay/code.html):

"Winning is without value if victory has been achieved unfairly or dishonestly. Cheating is easy, but brings no pleasure. Playing fair requires courage and character. It is also more satisfying. Fair play always has its reward, even when the game is lost. Playing fair earns respect, while cheating only brings shame. Remember: it is only a game. And games are pointless unless played fairly"

"Games are pointless unless played fairly". That about sums it up. If you feel otherwise then perhaps WWE is for you. Or perhaps EastEnders. Just don't try and drag football down to that level because that is nothing but an insult to the millions of people (at all levels) who play this game, or indeed other sports, every week without deliberately breaking the rules

* Unless of course you cynically only watch these games for such talking points or "controversy"


I don't think that cheating in a football match is that bad a thing to doAnd that says it all. Yet you feel that you can speak for "most people who watch football". If this entire affair has proven anything its that the vast majority of football fans do not share your opinion


If the arbiters didn't see it, there is nothing that can be doneWhy? As Wenger put it recently, its absurd that if a billion people see an offence and one man misses it then it is the latter that decides the matter. Numerous other sports (rubgy in particular) have integrated technology into refereeing with considerable success. Yet FIFA continues to drag its feet and refuse to countenance any change

[Devrim]

And that says it all. Yet you feel that you can speak for "most people who watch football". If this entire affair has proven anything its that the vast majority of football fans do not share your opinion

I don't claim to speak for "most people who watch football", but yes I do think as I said originally that "most people who watch football enjoy a bit of controversy". Obviously, the Irish fans aren't enjoying this particular bit, but I was speaking in general.


Just don't try and drag football down to that level because that is nothing but an insult to the millions of people (at all levels) who play this game, or indeed other sports, every week without deliberately breaking the rules

Do you play much football? I don't nowadays due to my age, but I used to. Every week at whatever level you see defenders holding attackers shirts at corners so that they can keep an eye on the ball and know where the forward they are marking is. Are these the 'millions of people (at all levels) who play this game'? Of course, nobody takes an extra yard or two at throw in either, do they? In addition people never encroach on a free kick. Come on, people cheat all the time.

This was has been singled out because it was a decisive moment that had won a high profile game. That is all.

Do you think that football would be well served by having a replay. I completely disagree. I think that it would open the doors to continual protests, and devalue the authority of the referre, which I think is important.

Yes, referees make mistakes. Unfortunately like in this case it happens, but that is just part of the game.

You mentioned rugby in your post. One of the things that I think could also be adopted from rugby is the attitude towards arguing with refs, any argument leads to an automatic booking, for example.



Players will always cheat. No way around that. The matter in question is the enforcement of rules. If the arbiters didn't see it, there is nothing that can be done.Why? As Wenger put it recently, its absurd that if a billion people see an offence and one man misses it then it is the latter that decides the matter. Numerous other sports (rubgy in particular) have integrated technology into refereeing with considerable success. Yet FIFA continues to drag its feet and refuse to countenance any change

I think actually according to the rules there is. If a referee misses something, a player can be punished later on video evidence.

Football could start to use a video official like other sports. It would have its cost on the flow of the game, but is not an idea without merit. However, it wouldn't solve everything. I listen to a radio programme today in which two commentators, both of whom had studied the video, were disagreeing about whether Given brought down Anelka and the French should have had a penalty in the first half. In my view they should have, but then that is football. It is swings and roundabouts.

Devrim

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Football is a sport that is widely practiced in impoverished and remote areas of Latin America, Africa and Asia where there are no conditions for video cameras or whatever to assist the referee. If FIFA adopted integrated technnology into refereeing, countless local football tournaments all over the world would be completely marginalized.

Instead of four referees, why not six?

Besides, technology isn't infalible.

Also, I highly doubt that any match has ever been watched by a billion people.
And lastly, it's impossible in practice for spectators to play the role of referee. Impossible and ridiculous.

[Coggeh]

But yep, I suppose the SP article does pander to patriotism a bit.
Can hardly call that patriotism. Its a blatant case of capitalism's destructive role in football (and everything else obviously) it was an irish SP article so obviously we have to mention that Ireland was one of the victims of the seedings, i don't see any problem in it.

Slovenia however have been f**ked over once again with the 2012 Euro seedings , despite beating russia , despite qualifying for the world cup they were put in the 3rd tier of seedings . Russia was put in the first. Utter Bullshit!

[-Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-]

Ireland were robbed, blatter must hate ireland more than MUFC:)

[Devrim]

Can hardly call that patriotism. Its a blatant case of capitalism's destructive role in football (and everything else obviously) it was an irish SP article so obviously we have to mention that Ireland was one of the victims of the seedings, i don't see any problem in it.

Modern football is a capitalist creation, as is spectator sport in general. I find the idea that capitalism has a destructive role that it plays in these sort of things quite strange.

Yes, Ireland was a victim of the seedings. People were upset about it on a national level. The article tries to connect with that feeling, and it is a patriotic feeling.


Slovenia however have been f**ked over once again with the 2012 Euro seedings , despite beating russia , despite qualifying for the world cup they were put in the 3rd tier of seedings . Russia was put in the first. Utter Bullshit!

There is a system for determining the seedings. It works like this:


On 20 May (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_20) 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008), UEFA announced the change of the coefficient ranking system.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient#cite_note-ranksystem-1) Under the new system, teams gain ranking points for each match played in the most recently completed five qualifying tournaments or finals of the World Cup or European Championships.
1) 10,000 points are awarded for each match played,
2) for an outcome of each match an additional 30,000 for winning, 20,000 for winning after a penalty shoot out, and 10,000 for a draw (including forcing, but failing to win, a penalty shoot-out),
3) the finals tournament, or play-offs to determine qualification, are granted extra points, ranging from 6,000 to 38,000,
4) 501 points are earned for a goal scored , and 500 lost for each goal conceded,
5) points are divided by the number of games played,
6) more recent tournaments have double the weighting of the one most distant in time,
7) special arrangements are in place for hosts of competitions, who have therefore not participated in the qualifying tournament.


Now we may think that there are problems with the way the system works. How would you suggest it could be organised? I think that one thing is certain that it shouldn't be organised like this "Slovenia however have been f**ked over once again with the 2012 Euro seedings , despite beating russia , despite qualifying for the world cup they were put in the 3rd tier of seedings . Russia was put in the first. Utter Bullshit!". All that this would mean is that lots of people would shout loudly. "Northern Ireland beat England 1-0 in Belfast yet we are in pot 3 and they are in pot 1. Utter Bullshit!". "Turkey came third in the World Cup before last, and got to the semi-final of the last European Championship. Why the hell are we in pot 2? Utter Bullshit!"... ad infinitım.

There is a system. It is open and transparent. Maybe it is not very good and there could be a better system, but I don't think that people are being 'fucked over'. The rules are there for everyone to see.

This is the result:


Pot 1: Spain (holders), Germany, Netherlands, Italy, England, Croatia, Portugal, France, RussiaPot 2: Greece, Czech Republic, Sweden, Switzerland, Serbia, Turkey, Denmark, Slovakia, Romania
Pot 3: Israel, Bulgaria, Finland, Norway, Republic of Ireland, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Austria, Bosnia-Herzegovina
Pot 4: Slovenia, Latvia, Hungary, Lithuania, Belarus, Belgium, Wales, FYR Macedonia, Cyprus
Pot 5: Montenegro, Albania, Estonia, Georgia, Moldova, Iceland, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Liechtenstein
Pot 6: Azerbaijan, Luxembourg, Malta, Faroe Islands, Andorra, San Marino


It looks pretty reasonable to me. We could all probably take issue with one or two of the results, but it seems generally OK.

Devrim

[ls]

Modern football is a capitalist creation, as is spectator sport in general. I find the idea that capitalism has a destructive role that it plays in these sort of things quite strange.

You don't think it manifests itself in the attitudes of people? "oh yeah I want the latest [so and so team] shirt" or "oh yeah so and so got transferred for whatever million" and it builds up people's aspirations, especially young talent for sports into wanting to do it for profit, for a career which is destroying the original meaning of it.

You are correct about a patriotic feeling though, I for one do not like being in certain areas when various teams like Fenerbahce, Galatasary, obviously England and sometimes Spurs play, it brings out some pretty nasty people who get very nationalistic and quite racist quite easily (especially if people aren't happy with the results).

[Redmau5]

It looks pretty reasonable to me. We could all probably take issue with one or two of the results, but it seems generally OK.

Devrim

Most people weren't complaining about the qualification group seedings. They were complaining about the fact that FIFA took the decision to seed the play-offs at a very late stage in qualifying, when it had been assumed that it was going to be an open draw.

[Devrim]

You are correct about a patriotic feeling though, I for one do not like being in certain areas when various teams like Fenerbahce, Galatasary, obviously England and sometimes Spurs play, it brings out some pretty nasty people who get very nationalistic and quite racist quite easily (especially if people aren't happy with the results).

I tend to not go into the city centre when Fener or Galata are playing in Europe. In my old house we used to sit in the back room when they won as people would be shooting bullets in the air in front of the house.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Most people weren't complaining about the qualification group seedings. They were complaining about the fact that FIFA took the decision to seed the play-offs at a very late stage in qualifying, when it had been assumed that it was going to be an open draw.

I think that they are right. The rules to a competition should be layed out before it starts. Why was it assumed though? They did it with seedings last time. Maybe hoped would be a more appropriate word.

Devrim