The Path seems to be still shining

[el_chavista]

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu60/MaRiaTegui10/arabs/batalladideas/sende.jpg

Sendero Luminoso (Shining Path http://www.solrojo.org/ ) is still fighting in the VRAE zone, heights of the Amazonian jungle in Perú, kind of Mao's Yenan for these Latino-American guerrilla.

1980-1992
Abimael Guzmán, comrade 'Gonzalo'
He led the armed struggle until he was arrested "and no longer leads the organization because he chaptered" according to Victor Quispe

1192-1999
Óscar Ramírez Durand, comrade 'Feliciano'
He continued the armed struggle and flouted Guzman's order to develop the 'peace agreement' with Fujimori.

1999-2008
Víctor Quispe Palomino, 'José',
he argues that the armed struggle continues and he is prepared to expand it throughout the country.

'José's brother Jorge Quispe Palomino, 'Raúl', 3rd in VRAE.

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3148/sendero.jpg

[ellipsis]

I know the shining path claims to be a maoist movement, but I have never really understood if they were an authentic, non-fascist revolutionary movement or a band of thugs, masquerading as a maoists.

[red cat]

Genuine Maoists.

[BOOTS BERGEN BUSHMASTER]

seem dubious to me

[red cat]

To the OP: Isn't José also known as Artemio?

[Comrade Gwydion]

seem dubious to me

It's allways dubious: the FARC is dubious, but I assume there are equal parts of idealists, thugs and people who are simply drawn in by the first two.

[el_chavista]

To the OP: Isn't José also known as Artemio?
They are different persons: http://maquina-de-combate.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/artemio-jose-recompensa.jpg
'José' is Víctor Quispe Palomino's nom de guerre.
"Artemio" (José Flores León's nom de guerre) is head of the Regional Committee of the Huallaga province.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I know the shining path claims to be a maoist movement, but I have never really understood if they were an authentic, non-fascist revolutionary movement or a band of thugs, masquerading as a maoists.
The problem with this is that it assumes there is a difference between "genuine Maoism" and anti-working-class thuggery.

[red cat]

Anti-working class thugs relaxing.

http://indianvanguard.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/naxal_gadar2.jpg

http://www.tamilnation.org/images/intframe/india/maoist.jpg



genuine revolutionaries making revolution.

http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/latinamerica/brazil14.jpg

http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/mexico/3-ganters.jpg

[Jazzratt]

:rolleyes: You know that just because the anti-working class thugs in question have guns and red flags doesn't mean they are making any kind of progressive revolution. To be honest I would rather see these gangsters sitting on their arse doing sweet fuck all than continue on their violent and ultimately anti-worker campaigns. Maybe that's just me, though. Perhaps to you it is perfectly reasonable to romanticise this violence as somehow bringing about revolution rather than just being thuggery with a lick of red paint I don't know.

[red cat]

:rolleyes: You know that just because the anti-working class thugs in question have guns and red flags doesn't mean they are making any kind of progressive revolution. To be honest I would rather see these gangsters sitting on their arse doing sweet fuck all than continue on their violent and ultimately anti-worker campaigns. Maybe that's just me, though. Perhaps to you it is perfectly reasonable to romanticise this violence as somehow bringing about revolution rather than just being thuggery with a lick of red paint I don't know.............................................. ......:wub:

No words.. really.

[ls]

Is there any evidence at all they've been active since 2008?

[red cat]

They say that they are.

[ls]

They say that they are.

Is it too much to ask for one link saying even that?

The OP certainly does not say that, all the websites associated (support bases in other countries too) seem to be down or haven't been updated since ridiculous times like 2004.

[red cat]

Is it too much to ask for one link saying even that?

Certainly not! Here:

http://www.solrojo.org/SR32_acciones.htm

[ls]

Well, that corroborates what I've been saying, the page title in English is "actions PCP 2008-2009". It ends in Nov 2008..

[red cat]

Actually it is till June 2009. Begins at November 2008.

[mosfeld]

Is it too much to ask for one link saying even that?

The OP certainly does not say that, all the websites associated (support bases in other countries too) seem to be down or haven't been updated since ridiculous times like 2004.

Here's a bit activity.

"[In August] Three policemen and two civilians have been killed in an overnight raid on a special forces base in southern Peru, which the government has blamed on once-powerful Maoist guerrillas."
''In April, the remnants of the group killed 13 soldiers in an attack to an army base in the Ayacucho region. ''

http://www.revleft.com/vb/five-dead-peru-t114414/index.html?t=114414

[ls]

Alright, that was pretty stupid of me.

Anyway..
June 15
PLA units carry out actions of armed propaganda and agitation Maraycancha communities in San Miguel de La Mar province, and Chuschi in Huamanga, Ayacucho, organizing popular assemblies and mobilizing the masses to join in the popular war..

According to various sources, they are only really active in San Miguel and Ayacucho provinces, it's written that they are too. But I have heard from other marxist-leninist leftists that they are now mostly defunct anyway, so I was under the impression they were from that too.

[red cat]

Trust your sources very carefully. There are ups and downs in the PPWs. During the downs there is a lot of propaganda against the Maoists and they say that Maoists are "defunct", "confined to the mountains murdering peasants etc etc.". A couple of years ago this type of propaganda was done against Filipino and Indian Maoists too(and still now). Then the former emerged with a PLA that exceeded the one in the 80s in numbers, and the latter conducted a series of uprisings in vast regions.

[mosfeld]

A couple of years ago this type of propaganda was done against Filipino and Indian Maoists too(and still now).

Just an example, this was on wikipedia the other day.


Lalgrah came under media attention at the beginning of November 2008. The proscribed terrorist[2] outfit Communist Party of India (Maoist), went on a spree of mass murder ,cannibalism, beheading, and neutering of thousands of poor farmers in the area belonging to Communist Party of India (Marxist). In June 2009 Indian security forces launched Operation Lalgarh against the Maoists in the village. The Maoists formed a three-tier human shield with women, all suckiling babies, and children, in the vanguard, men behind them and armed naxals forming the rearguard[3] but had flee into nearby forests after they were soundly defeated and faced public humiliation on their failed 'liberation struggle'. A horde of 6600 human skulls, the remnants of their orgy of cannibalism, was discovered in the area afterwards[4].
http://www.revleft.com/vb/lalgarh-maoist-cannibals-t120378/index.html?t=120378

[ellipsis]

so Indian Maoists aren't Cannibals?:( I guess I am going to join the Zapatistas after all.

[Crux]

Uhm, sendiero luminoso has consequently targetted and voilently attacked all genuine left forces In peru and through their terrorism been the greatest deterrement for revolutionary development in peru, save the state regime itself. Not much to hooray for really.

[red cat]

Anti-working class thugs relaxing.

http://indianvanguard.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/naxal_gadar2.jpg

http://www.tamilnation.org/images/intframe/india/maoist.jpg



genuine revolutionaries making revolution.

http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/latinamerica/brazil14.jpg

http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/mexico/3-ganters.jpg

To Mayakovsky: Please don't identify this type of posts as troll-posts. I know that whatever reflects reality seems to pinch you. But all this really exposes your ignorance of Marxism.

[red cat]

Uhm, sendiero luminoso has consequently targetted and voilently attacked all genuine left forces In peru and through their terrorism been the greatest deterrement for revolutionary development in peru, save the state regime itself. Not much to hooray for really.

I can never work out why exactly in the countries where Maoists are prominant there is a great possibility of revolution by other leftists and they are ruining it. What about the many other countries where Maoists are not there? Any revolution coming up?

[Искра]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Path
I guess that you'll say Omfg, Wikipedia... evil capitalist web site but still, this is what makes them really nice organisation:


Widely condemned for its brutality,[/URL] including violence deployed against peasants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Path#cite_note-brit-1), trade union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union) organizers, popularly elected officials and the general civilian population,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Path#cite_note-Quien-3) the Shining Path is regarded by Peru as a terrorist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism) organization.


Similar to the larger FARC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Armed_Forces_of_Colombia) in Colombia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia), some factions of Shining Path have reinvented themselves as [U]a highly efficient cocaine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine) smuggling operation, with an ostensibly paternalistic relationship to villagers.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Path#cite_note-romero-8)


Escalating its activities in Lima, in June 1985 it again blew up electricity transmission towers in Lima, producing a blackout, and detonated car bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_bomb) near the government palace and the justice palace. It also was believed to be responsible for bombing a shopping mall.
Because capitalists go to shopping mall, not working class.


During this period, the Shining Path also conducted many selective assassinations targeting specific individuals, notably leaders of other leftist groups, local political parties, labor unions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union), and peasant organizations, some of whom were anti-Shining Path Marxists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism).
So, I shouldn't argue with red_cat, right?


As the organization grew in power, a cult of personality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality) grew around Guzmán. The official ideology of the Shining Path ceased to be 'Marxism-Leninism-Mao Tse-tung thought', and was instead referred to as 'Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Gonzalo thought'.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Path#cite_note-27)
Communism 100%

etc.

btw. where does their guns and bombs coming from?

[Andropov]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Path
I guess that you'll say Omfg, Wikipedia... evil capitalist web site but still, this is what makes them really nice organisation:
I wouldnt call it "evil" as it is purely a subjective term.
But it is certainly a peddler of discredited bourgeois propaganda.
So yes, come back with a reputable source.

[Искра]

So yes, come back with a reputable source.
Which would be web site of Shining Path or book wrote by their member or some one who like them. :rolleyes:

[Andropov]

Which would be web site of Shining Path or book wrote by their member or some one who like them. :rolleyes:
Not my responsibility chief.
Im afraid its yours.
If you have a point to make on this group use a reputable source and the posters here will determine whether is is a reasonably balanced account.
If you cant be arsed then dont bother posting.

[Искра]

Not my responsibility chief.
Im afraid its yours.
1st WTF?! :confused:


If you have a point to make on this group use a reputable source and the posters here will determine whether is is a reasonably balanced account.
If you cant be arsed then dont bother posting.
So I have to find you some source which is biased in the way that fits you and this will then be "reputable source". I guess that I must put link from stalin society in every discussion then.

I posted link from wikipedia with very detailed article on Shining Path. Members of Shining Path could go there and made their article about Shining Path and it will be there, since no one will bother to go and correct it. I would like to see how will red_cat (since he/she's advocating the Shining Path) justify accusations for cocaine smuggling which is 100% revolutionary activity, blowing up buildings full of civilians aka. working class, torturing of peasants and workers organised in trade unions etc. which is proving that they are nothing but thugs (as someone mentioned earlier).

Also, so what if Wikipedia is capitalist source? If you can't answer on that that means that you are pathetic. Or we should only discuss about articles from stalin society?!

[Andropov]

1st WTF?! :confused:
Using reputable sources to back up your arguement is your responsibility not mine.
Hence why it is your responsibility to go look for these articles, not mine.


So I have to find you some source which is biased in the way that fits you and this will then be "reputable source". I guess that I must put link from stalin society in every discussion then.

Nice attempt at distorting my point.
Now back to the rational debate.
Get a reputable source and then we can engage politically like mature marxists.

I posted link from wikipedia with very detailed article on Shining Path. Members of Shining Path could go there and made their article about Shining Path and it will be there, since no one will bother to go and correct it. I would like to see how will red_cat (since he/she's advocating the Shining Path) justify accusations for cocaine smuggling which is 100% revolutionary activity, blowing up buildings full of civilians aka. working class, torturing of peasants and workers organised in trade unions etc. which is proving that they are nothing but thugs (as someone mentioned earlier).
The detail is irrelevant.
It is not a reputable source.
Hence your arguement fails.

Also, so what if Wikipedia is capitalist source? If you can't answer on that that means that you are pathetic.
Your a credit to rational debate.

Or we should only discuss about articles from stalin society?!
Stalin society?
Are you finished throwing your rattle out of the pram?
Now go find a reputable source to verify your claims so we can conduct this debate maturely if thats not too much to ask.

[Искра]

Using reputable sources to back up your arguement is your responsibility not mine.
Hence why it is your responsibility to go look for these articles, not mine.

Nice attempt at distorting my point.
Now back to the rational debate.
Get a reputable source and then we can engage politically like mature marxists.

The detail is irrelevant.
It is not a reputable source.
Hence your arguement fails.

Your a credit to rational debate.

Stalin society?
Are you finished throwing your rattle out of the pram?
Now go find a reputable source to verify your claims so we can conduct this debate maturely if thats not too much to ask.
Are you done?
You haven't answer to any of questions which I asked, you just started to attack me on personal level about "maturely debating" etc. Nice way to turn discussion in other way and to avoid things.
If you believe that articles which are not from media's you consider "objective" (and objective media's DO NOT EXIST) irrelevant and not for discussion then tell me what are you afraid of? That by bringing few questions into discussion your Shining Path will be discredited? Their practice made them discredited long time ago.
Also, it's really nice to go on leftish internet forum and to read users saying "we won't discuss this, this is not objective"... Everything is for discussion, and you should try to prove that those Wikipedia stuff are "capitalist propaganda".
Regarding Stalin society, that a joke because of your "reputable source" crap and your Stalin avatar. So, I guess that this is only web site your trust :rolleyes:
So, what shall we do not? Will you continue attacking me because I posted Wikipedia link or will you let red_cat to answer me?

[Spawn of Stalin]

The Stalin Society has nothing to do with Shining Path or any other Maoist organisation. The Stalin Society is a discussion group dedicated to the study of, surprise surprise, Stalin. So please don't play two completely unrelated groups against each other, and please don't use Red Revolutionary's admiration for Stalin as an excuse not to take him seriously. You posted a link to Wikipedia, all of the content on Wikipedia is generated by people like you and me so it can not be trusted, but I checked the Wikipedia page anyway and the claim that Shining Path are an evil drug running terrorist organisation doesn't seem to be backed up by any immediately available or especially trustworthy sources, so your information is about as reliable as a teenage girl's blog.

[red cat]

A documentary on the PCP just before Gonzalo was captured.

http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/documentary-the-people-of-the-shining-path/

[Andropov]

Are you done?
You haven't answer to any of questions which I asked, you just started to attack me on personal level about "maturely debating" etc. Nice way to turn discussion in other way and to avoid things.
Your immaturity is slightly irritating.
Your questions are irrelevant because you do not have a reputable source to to verify your accusations.

If you believe that articles which are not from media's you consider "objective" (and objective media's DO NOT EXIST) irrelevant and not for discussion then tell me what are you afraid of? That by bringing few questions into discussion your Shining Path will be discredited? Their practice made them discredited long time ago.
Point and case.
You must provide a reputable source to verify your claims, Its the way intellectual deabtes are conducted.

Also, it's really nice to go on leftish internet forum and to read users saying "we won't discuss this, this is not objective"... Everything is for discussion, and you should try to prove that those Wikipedia stuff are "capitalist propaganda".
Wrong again.
When you make claims you must be able to verify them with reputable sources when asked to.

Regarding Stalin society, that a joke because of your "reputable source" crap and your Stalin avatar.
Arent jokes ment to be funny?

So, I guess that this is only web site your trust :rolleyes:
What a ridiculous accusation.
This is embarressing and only helps to sunbstantiate my opinion on your immaturity.

So, what shall we do not? Will you continue attacking me because I posted Wikipedia link or will you let red_cat to answer me?
Asking for a reputable link to your claims is not attacking you.
It is the way a rational debate follows.
So stop throwing the rattle out of the pram because you were called on your source and get a reputable source to verify your claims.

[Luís Henrique]

About the murder of María Elena Moyano, grassroot leftist activist, by Sendero's thugs:

http://www.amigosdevilla.it/Moyano.htm

(in Castillian)

Luís Henrique

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I don't agree with the Shining Path based on their organisational strategy. But I can see that the claims that have been used against them have been heavily exagerrated/distorted by the Bourgeois media.

[Crux]

To Mayakovsky: Please don't identify this type of posts as troll-posts. I know that whatever reflects reality seems to pinch you. But all this really exposes your ignorance of Marxism.
Trotskysists:
http://thecommune.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/cob.jpg
Maoists:
http://www.solrojo.org/Sep24/LU.jpg

Now to play a little guessing game, guess who spends their time making meaningless grafitti to support to peoples war, being complete fucking clichées and violently threaten ex-members of their organisation of 20-ish people, and who organizes a mass of workers. And no I don't intend to get into a meaningless debate with some "maoist" fanboy who's made his understanding of marxism quite abundantly clear.

[red cat]

Good attempt, but please try to compare the number of people in the first pictures of both the posts.

Also, I would appreciate a picture of any present Trotskyist red army (because of course, you claim to be Leninists).

[Spawn of Stalin]

I've never seen anything to suggest that the struggle in less developed countries revolves around anything other than Marxism-Leninism. India, Nepal, the Philippines, these are the countries which are leading the way for socialist revolution today, and all of them follow the path of Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin-Mao.

Also, to Mayakovsky, those people in the second picture you posted are white and likely European or North American, it could be the New Peru Friendship Association who are based in Sweden, anyway, they don't look very oppressed. My point is that Maoism is basically non-existent in developed countries because the conditions do not favour the Maoist strategy so well, look to the third world, the people who truly understand that decisive action is necessary, it is Maoists who are taking point in the revolutions in these countries. Comparing pictures of Trotskyists in Bolivia or Colombia or wherever that was taken, and Maoists in Sweden, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[NecroCommie]

I've never seen anything to suggest that the struggle in less developed countries revolves around anything other than Marxism-Leninism. India, Nepal, the Philippines, these are the countries which are leading the way for socialist revolution today, and all of them follow the path of Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin-Mao.

Also, to Mayakovsky, those people in the second picture you posted are white and likely European or North American, it could be the New Peru Friendship Association who are based in Sweden, anyway, they don't look very oppressed. My point is that Maoism is basically non-existent in developed countries because the conditions do not favour the Maoist strategy so well, look to the third world, the people who truly understand that decisive action is necessary, it is Maoists who are taking point in the revolutions in these countries. Comparing pictures of Trotskyists in Bolivia or Colombia or wherever that was taken, and Maoists in Sweden, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Latin america may not have active guerrilla organizations as big as far-asia, but the class-consiousness is roughly equal. They are not all maoists. Not saying that maoism is bad.

Besides, we should be happy for the anti-capitalist masses anywhere despite their sect. Anything else is sectarianism.

[red cat]

Latin america may not have active guerrilla organizations as big as far-asia, but the class-consiousness is roughly equal. They are not all maoists. Not saying that maoism is bad.

Examples please? I know only of the Clandestine Communist Party of Colombia. They are not Maoists, but they implement the Maoist theory of PPW as well.

[mosfeld]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mev5gNhcr2I
RATM supporting the Shining Path. Cool video and a good song.

[RedSonRising]

I've never seen anything to suggest that the struggle in less developed countries revolves around anything other than Marxism-Leninism. India, Nepal, the Philippines, these are the countries which are leading the way for socialist revolution today, and all of them follow the path of Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin-Mao.



....Zapatistas anyone?

[ls]

....Zapatistas anyone?

Indeed, although they are not very big and are likely to be destroyed in their entirety by the Mexican state soon.

I think people are correct in generally saying south america has a high class consciousness, on the specifics however I don't think you can say people follow "the exact formula of marx-lenin-mao-stalin" or anything like that, it is true though that regardless of your political affiliations, a lot of south american countries are led by revisionist or pretty liberal governments, Nicaragua.. Honduras, Argentina etc, the extent of their progressiveness is a long topic in itself.

There have obviously been traditional organisations who don't identify as maoist in their political affiliation that have had large successes in south america too, but yeah I don't think blanketly covering anywhere as "definitely working to this formula" really achieves much.

[NecroCommie]

Examples please? I know only of the Clandestine Communist Party of Colombia. They are not Maoists, but they implement the Maoist theory of PPW as well.
Communist parties and class consciousness are two different things. Also, class consciousness does not necessarily manifest itself as a revolutionary movement. But since you asked --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Socialism_(Bolivia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Party_(Costa_Rica)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_of_Chile

[Spawn of Stalin]

....Zapatistas anyone?
Slipped my mind, that said I don't really see them working towards a socialist Mexico, although what they are doing in their own communities of course is very positive and progressive, they have been on ceasefire for over a decade now, and they're not exactly in a position to trigger a revolution.

Communist parties and class consciousness are two different things. Also, class consciousness does not necessarily manifest itself as a revolutionary movement. But since you asked --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Socialism_(Bolivia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Party_(Costa_Rica)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_of_Chile
These groups are all entirely reformist, in fact I believe the Costa Rican PLN are a part of Socialist International, which British Labour is a member of.

[red cat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroCommie http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1595931#post1595931)
Communist parties and class consciousness are two different things. Also, class consciousness does not necessarily manifest itself as a revolutionary movement. But since you asked --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...alism_(Bolivia (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Socialism_%28Bolivia))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ty_(Costa_Rica (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Party_%28Costa_Rica))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_of_Chile (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_of_Chile)

These groups are all entirely reformist, in fact I believe the Costa Rican PLN are a part of Socialist International, which British Labour is a member of.Right. Third-world parliamentary parties without armed revolutionary forces are all reformists.

[NecroCommie]

These groups are all entirely reformist, in fact I believe the Costa Rican PLN are a part of Socialist International, which British Labour is a member of.


...class consciousness does not necessarily manifest itself as a revolutionary movement...
I was not claiming revolutionary. I claimed class consciousness. Besides, I was under the illusion that wide anti-capitalism in Latin america was common knowledge in Revleft.

[red cat]

Depends upon what you mean by anti-capitalism. All revisionist parties pay lip-service to that, and even organize rallies seemingly against some capitalist powers. But they support capitalism through their deeds.

[ellipsis]

Indeed, although they are not very big and are likely to be destroyed in their entirety by the Mexican state soon.

That is complete bullshit, unless you can produce proof to prove your point.

Red—Revolutionary: Just because you denounce that wikipedia as a bourgeois capitalist propaganda organ that is so unreliable that "mature" debates cannot be based upon information contained therein, does not make it so. Has their been a CC vote or any thread in which the revleft community has agreed that for the purposes of this forum, wikipedia cannot be used as a credible source?
I denounce revleft for surely there are capitalist and fascist moles planting misinformation somewhere, therefor we cannot trust any post to be true and cannot present them as evidence in any other posy.

[NecroCommie]

Depends upon what you mean by anti-capitalism. All revisionist parties pay lip-service to that, and even organize rallies seemingly against some capitalist powers. But they support capitalism through their deeds.
Parties, perhaps, but what about the masses that rally behind these promises? Is that not what the discussion is about?

[red cat]

Parties, perhaps, but what about the masses that rally behind these promises? Is that not what the discussion is about?
But the masses are successfully diverted by these parties. Today revisionist parties form the political basis of capitalist exploitation, because the existence of the proletariat implies that if there is no party that claims itself to be proletarian, then it is likely that this political space will be filled by a vanguard party that naturally arises from the proletariat, that is, a genuine communist party.

[ls]

That is complete bullshit, unless you can produce proof to prove your point.

You can ask our resident user on this forum 'Forward Union' exactly what's going on around Chiapas, he was a part of them and I'm pretty confident he will tell you the same thing I did.

[scarletghoul]

Phat Rage tune. Also I think the Manics support Shining Path a little maybe. They give them a shout out in one of their songs Baby Elian. "We follow a shining path that you can never destroy". Yeah

[ellipsis]

If Rage writes a song about them, they must be authentic revolutionaries?

[Spawn of Stalin]

No but that is a cool song it's good to know that awesome rock groups support progressive movements like Shining Path.

[Andropov]

Red—Revolutionary: Just because you denounce that wikipedia as a bourgeois capitalist propaganda organ that is so unreliable that "mature" debates cannot be based upon information contained therein, does not make it so. Has their been a CC vote or any thread in which the revleft community has agreed that for the purposes of this forum, wikipedia cannot be used as a credible source?
I denounce revleft for surely there are capitalist and fascist moles planting misinformation somewhere, therefor we cannot trust any post to be true and cannot present them as evidence in any other posy.
It is accepted as a discredited source not only in Revleft but in any intellectual or academic debate.
Hence why the likes of Universitys, Colleges, political works etc do not use Wikipedia as a referance because of its inherent weaknesses.

[ls]

It is accepted as a discredited source not only in Revleft but in any intellectual or academic debate.
Hence why the likes of Universitys, Colleges, political works etc do not use Wikipedia as a referance because of its inherent weaknesses.

Not to attempt to divert the topic; but I think certainly on other language wikipedias it can generally be a lot less biased. Also, some articles have left bias and I'm pretty sure of that, I can't think of any off the top of my head but some certainly do have different kinds of left bias. In the end of the day, you have to take wikipedia article-by-article, depending on the article's sources and exactly what's written on there (and sometimes, who it has been written by).

[ellipsis]

It is accepted as a discredited source not only in Revleft.
When was is accepted as such? I see it used frequently with no objections.

Neither side has produced any (conclusive) evidence that the shining path in a true revolutionary organization. The burden of proof is on the affirmative if I remember correctly. I would really like to get to the truth but refusing to engage in debate because of your opponent's lack of credible sources doesn't really help your case.

Is- Forward union agreed that it was a possibility but gave no proof or reasoning behind it. Given the Mexican government's preoccupation with the cartels at the moments and the Zapatistas ample international support, I find a total eradication scenario to be unlikely. Of course I could be wrong.

[Andropov]

When was is accepted as such?
Like I said any academic study or works will not recognise Wikipedia as a credible source.
As such any credibilie intellectual debates should not be dependant on such a dis-credited source.

I see it used frequently with no objections.
I dont tbh.

Neither side has produced any (conclusive) evidence that the shining path in a true revolutionary organization. The burden of proof is on the affirmative if I remember correctly.
I would agree with you normally.
But on a Leftist forum, with a discussion among Leftists I would always give the benefit of the doubt to the proclaimed Leftist movement since they constantly are vilanised by Bourgeois and right wing mouthpieces its positive to give a little lee-way in that regaurd.

I would really like to get to the truth but refusing to engage in debate because of your opponent's lack of credible sources doesn't really help your case.
If you noticed my only issue with this thread is the use of wikipedia as a credible source to slander a proclaimed leftist movement.
I dont think its productive to have posters here having to deal with a blatantly biased source with regaurds to this issue.

[black magick hustla]

revolutionaries

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/10/23/international/23ramadi.large1.jpg

wusses
http://www.iacuc.arizona.edu/training/cats/images/Tabby1-DomesticCat-Closeup.jpg

[ellipsis]

I just think that wikipedia, just like any other sources should be regarded with a healthy level of skepticism. But you are right in that it is throughly disdained by academics. And in the interested in increasing the quality of revleft, maybe it would be better to leave wikipedia out of it.

Back on topic, I studied Latin American social movements and have never even seen the shining path considered as a progressive movement in academic literature.

[Crux]

revolutionaries

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/10/23/international/23ramadi.large1.jpg

wusses
http://www.iacuc.arizona.edu/training/cats/images/Tabby1-DomesticCat-Closeup.jpg
My point exactly. I guess sarcasm doesn't work aswell in text based form over the internet though.

[ellipsis]

My point exactly. I guess sarcasm doesn't work aswell in text based form over the internet though.

What point is that? I guess I am not kewl enough to get what you guys are talking about.

[ls]

What point is that? I guess I am not kewl enough to get what you guys are talking about.

The uncritical fetishisation of basically any 'left' movement which decides to arm itself.

[Pavlov's House Party]

Ha ha!

Funny story: I lived in rural Peru for a few months last year, and no one I talked to held the Shining Path in high esteem(these were peasants, mind you). Even in the cities, there was almost no support for them, but I remember being in Lima and seeing a Communist Party demonstration with Party banners hanging from buildings and stuff, so at least the Communist Party has support. Pretty much everyone I talked to said that the Shining Path are irresponsible terrorists, and almost no-one knew that they were "communist", they all said they thought that the Shining Path were some kind of coke-running gang.

[red cat]

Ha ha!

Funny story: I lived in rural Peru for a few months last year, and no one I talked to held the Shining Path in high esteem(these were peasants, mind you). Even in the cities, there was almost no support for them, but I remember being in Lima and seeing a Communist Party demonstration with Party banners hanging from buildings and stuff, so at least the Communist Party has support. Pretty much everyone I talked to said that the Shining Path are irresponsible terrorists, and almost no-one knew that they were "communist", they all said they thought that the Shining Path were some kind of coke-running gang.
You had to go all the way to Peru to hear that? Guys living in India and Turkey actually come to this forum to tell us similar things about the Maoist movements in their countries. :lol:

[Pavlov's House Party]

You had to go all the way to Peru to hear that? Guys living in India and Turkey actually come to this forum to tell us similar things about the Maoist movements in their countries. :lol:

Yeah, I went all the way to the Andes to interview people about what they think of obscure Maoist thugs:rolleyes:

Its kind of sad how you have to deny the fact that they have absolutely no support from the working class (or even the peasants!), I guess building a mass movement of the workers to overthrow capitalism just isn't worth it if you can run into the hills and shoot guns into the air screaming "revolutionnn!!!!", as that's obviously how every successful socialist revolution was ever realized:rolleyes:

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

I know the Shining Path indeed trapped and killed a bunch of soldiers in 2008 at least during one occasion, but I'm sure there have been more attacks like this.
It just never reaches the news in Western Europe.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

An example of Shing Path propagandistic action is the following video:
After explaining the rotten state of capitalism and the Worker's actions against the capitalist opression, there is a tribute to the Shining Path in the end of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gA2K03uRF0&feature=related

Long live the Shining Path, I say!

[Andropov]

Funny story: I lived in rural Peru for a few months last year, and no one I talked to held the Shining Path in high esteem(these were peasants, mind you). Even in the cities, there was almost no support for them, but I remember being in Lima and seeing a Communist Party demonstration with Party banners hanging from buildings and stuff, so at least the Communist Party has support. Pretty much everyone I talked to said that the Shining Path are irresponsible terrorists, and almost no-one knew that they were "communist", they all said they thought that the Shining Path were some kind of coke-running gang.
In certain areas of Ireland you will hear the same thing about the INLA.
Does it mean its indicitive of their politics or support base?
Absolutely not because as material marxists such subjective reaserch mechanisms are irrelevant.
For example in the Free State the INLA could easily be deemed drug dealers and terrorists and then if you go into estates in the North people will be cheering while they have marchs or demos.
A few weeks ago two ex-INLA POW's were walking down a street in Shantallow in Derry and an old woman came out of her house and congradulated them on patrolling the estate. They were not even wearing combat gear, balys or were armed, just going for a walk to the shop. :lol:

[scarletghoul]

^ Exactly the point I was gonna make. The perceptions of such groups vary widely, depending on the level of influence they have in the area. For another example, there are villages in India where the people all despise the Naxalite terrorists, and there are villages which regard the Naxals as freedom fighters and their own government. Usually the anti-Naxal villages are under Salwa-Judum or state control and therefore subject to their view of things.
I imagine the areas of Peru you visited were not highly influenced by the Senderistas. One telling clue is the fact that they had no idea that the Shining Path was Communist. This seems only possible in an area completely free of Shining Path influence, as their Communist ideology is something they are pretty loud about (political education is a big part in every Maoist movement too)

[red cat]

Another point; even if you visit a village influenced by communists, they will generally view you as an outsider and a possible government spy. In the countries where PPW has progressed, display of minimum sympathy for the Maoists is enough to get oneself identified as a Maoist and killed along with his whole family.

So some of the villages you had visited might have been Maoist and, who knows, some of the villagers you had talked to might have been PCP cadres themselves. In all of these third-world countries, the government forces complain of the Maoists being within the masses, as fish within water.

[ellipsis]

Good points on all sides. But still nobody has presented any real evidence to support either side. I will not/cannot assume that since the Shining Path says that they are Maoist, that they are truly anti-capitalism and pro-working class. After all the Nazis said that they were National Socialists and Pol Pot claimed to be communist.

[red cat]

Do you believe that the Maoist parties of India, Philippines and Nepal are truly Maoist, pro-working class , and have good knowledge of the other Maoist movements?

[Pogue]

And so ultimately we see the emotionalist liberal paternalism of Stalinists who love nothing mroe than for to see some representative of the working class protecting it, or fighting for it on its behalf, essentially the main reason why Leninism as an ideolgoy has consistently failed the working class in the most brilliant of ways since its inception. Roll on the future I say, and fuck these gangsterist thugs.

[red cat]

And so ultimately we see the emotionalist liberal paternalism of Stalinists who love nothing mroe than for to see some representative of the working class protecting it, or fighting for it on its behalf, essentially the main reason why Leninism as an ideolgoy has consistently failed the working class in the most brilliant of ways since its inception. Roll on the future I say, and fuck these gangsterist thugs.
A necessary pre-condition for failure is being active.

[Crux]

I think the PLP, after having been in contact with Sendiero Luminoso wrote a pretty interesting critique.

[ellipsis]

Do you believe that the Maoist parties of India, Philippines and Nepal are truly Maoist, pro-working class , and have good knowledge of the other Maoist movements?

I am ignorant on those matters. But I do know most of the guerrilla groups in Latin America and like I said, I have never heard them praised in any academic literature. But I fail to see how that has anything to do with the lack of evidence, anything at all presented to support this group.

[red cat]

I am ignorant on those matters. But I do know most of the guerrilla groups in Latin America and like I said, I have never heard them praised in any academic literature. But I fail to see how that has anything to do with the lack of evidence, anything at all presented to support this group.
If you read up on Indian or Nepalese or Filipino Maoists, and are convinced that their international line is mostly correct, then support from their party-literature can provide some evidence of PCP being a revolutionary communist party.

[Andropov]

Good points on all sides. But still nobody has presented any real evidence to support either side. I will not/cannot assume that since the Shining Path says that they are Maoist, that they are truly anti-capitalism and pro-working class. After all the Nazis said that they were National Socialists and Pol Pot claimed to be communist.
I think you misintepret what we are saying.
In that when we have no objective evidence of a groups true political character and they call themselves Leftists to at least refrain from criticism based on bourgeois sources.
Like in your example with the NAZI's calling themselves Socialist I think is flawed since Communists could easily gain access to the likes of Mein Kampf from what the NAZI party was centered around. So you had a clear example of objective evidence of the NAZI's not being socialist.

[Andropov]

And so ultimately we see the emotionalist liberal paternalism of Stalinists who love nothing mroe than for to see some representative of the working class protecting it, or fighting for it on its behalf, essentially the main reason why Leninism as an ideolgoy has consistently failed the working class in the most brilliant of ways since its inception. Roll on the future I say, and fuck these gangsterist thugs.
You dont see an irony in that post what so ever?
Roll on the future....
http://www.thealexjonesshow.com/assets/images2/windowbreak.jpg
Nice to see representatives of the working class smashing windows towards our working class emancipation.

[leninpuncher]

That man is the elected representative of anarchism, don't you know.

Smashing the odd window is probably much less harmful to any working-class movement than dealing coke and eating people.

[Pogue]

You dont see an irony in that post what so ever?
Roll on the future....
http://www.thealexjonesshow.com/assets/images2/windowbreak.jpg
Nice to see representatives of the working class smashing windows towards our working class emancipation.

1. Anarchists don't believe in anyone representing the working class.

2. What evidence suggests this man was an anarchist?

3. When did I ever say I supported such actions?

4. When did the UK anarchist movement ever say it supported such actions?

Unless you can respond to this I am going to count this as a meaningless slur, an absolutely pathetic oen at that which shows your totall ignorance of what I advocate is. I don't think its ignorance really though, I think your just being obnoxious, you know I don't advocate such actions as shown above, you just lack the bravery (yes, I am calling you a coward) to engage me on my actual politics.

[chegitz guevara]

This thread is totally pointless. It's nothing more than cheer leading or denigration with no real content. :(

[Andropov]

You fucking clown you said this yourself....


Roll on the future I say, and fuck these gangsterist thugs.

So dont assume the pedastel of debating purity when all and sunder here know your debating technique, hence why your probably one of the most disliked anarchists on here.

Now a question.
Do you condemn the riots in Greece or see it as progressing the working class struggle?