A challenging question on culture

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I hope I don't get pilloried for asking the following question, and if it is against the rules to ask such a question then I would view that as pretty totalitarian, but here we go..

Why must the left be so obsessed with 'leftist' culture? As a musician myself, I find it offensive that people should judge music, to an extent, on its political message.

I do not believe for a minute that Bach, Beethoven or Chopin sat down with a political message in mind. Even in the case of Wagner, an identifiable racist, his music must surely be enjoyed as an art form, rather than pre-judged because of the views of the composer. To listen to Wagner does not implicate the listener, surely?

Culture should be something to enjoy, to relax with and to judge on relevant merits. Good art should not be shunned because of some personal expectation of political acceptability.

[Pinko Panther]

To some extent, I agree with you. People should not judge music solely on the (political) message behind it.
On the other hand, music is a means of communication with others. It is possible (and effective) to spread a political message through music. In fact, I was first exposed to socialism through music! But this can go both ways. There are many skinhead punk bands in the united states. For example, you can google "Skrewdriver", but if you do, just remember that this is the preferred type of music of Stormfront visitors.
So, music can spread political views, and that's why some people choose to judge it not only based on its aesthetic value.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Fair enough, I understand where the music is the medium of a political message.

However, there are many examples of people simply expressing music but being shunned by certain tribal sections of the left. It is reminiscent of what happened in the USSR in the 1930s.

[Sam_b]

I don't necessarily judge music on its political nature per se, but as Pinko Panther says, it can be used as a means of communication. Leftists often try and use music as an art space in order to convey a message that wouldn't otherwise get out there by other channels. As do a lot of musicians: take Czech band Plastic People of the Universe, for example, a group heavily influenced by Zappa and the Velvet Underground and thus shunned by the regime. As part of the underground culture, they used their music as an overt criticism of the regime itself, through music expansion and of course lyrical content. When the state tries to enforce what content is 'correct' in art or music, like Socialist Realism for instance, that then becomes a legitimate space for dissent.

It goes down to the question of what you make of it as an art forum: the question of 'what is music?' and 'what is art?'. Some wish to convey messages through music as it provides them a voice or a space in which they can achieve this - the idea of social commentary in music or otherwise. Some don't.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

My problem is more that there seems to be little acknowledgement, amonst the revolutionary left, of apolitical music as an art form. I do completely understand and agree with the idea the music can be a medium for spreading a political message, however art and culture is surely damaged by not paying attention to the merits of high quality, apolitical music. I refer to my example of Wagner.

[Steve_j]

So what? Its called personal taste.

[Pirate Utopian]

I find most (not all) political music boring, especially when they place politics before music like for example Crass.

[Invincible Summer]

I find most (not all) political music boring, especially when they place politics before music like for example Crass.

Crass are terrible

[Sam_b]

I think you confuse art in general - is 'art' the message or lack of one, or is art technical ability?

Crass may or not be 'terrible' in a subjective view for example, but what about the use of sound collages and the experimental aspect of it as being as much to do with physical artistry than anything else?

It is a contribution, and there to provoke a reaction. Whether you like it or not is another matter.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

So what? Its called personal taste.

It crosses the borders of personal taste over to political taste, when those who are bereft of talent are placed in higher regard than some of the finest musicians of the time, both classical and popular.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I hope I don't get pilloried for asking the following question, and if it is against the rules to ask such a question then I would view that as pretty totalitarian, but here we go..

Why must the left be so obsessed with 'leftist' culture? As a musician myself, I find it offensive that people should judge music, to an extent, on its political message.

I do not believe for a minute that Bach, Beethoven or Chopin sat down with a political message in mind. Even in the case of Wagner, an identifiable racist, his music must surely be enjoyed as an art form, rather than pre-judged because of the views of the composer. To listen to Wagner does not implicate the listener, surely?

Culture should be something to enjoy, to relax with and to judge on relevant merits. Good art should not be shunned because of some personal expectation of political acceptability.

You should read what Trotsky has to say about art... you can find some articles on Marxists.org.

He basically argued against radical artists who were promoting "proletarian art" and said that art exists in its own sphere and that working class society will want to experience and learn form the best that past eras of art had to offer. He says this is because the working class doesn't need to create it's own distinct culture after the revolution because as class distinctions are removed, there will only need to be "human culture".

I believe that really great art can survive it's historical and political context. Shakespeare plays for example are now performed with interpretations of characters that are different than they would have been in Elizabethan times. Shylock was intended to be an old buffoonish stick-in-the-mud who didn't want his daughter to get married and adopt modern customs. Today, Shylock is always played more sympathetically because now we identify and sympathize with the character's abuse in a society where anti-Jewish bigotry was normal. The fact that the play stands up to the passage of time and the same dialogue can be performed and have a totally new effect is a testament to the value of that work and the way that the characters were written with real motivations and emotions.

In the same way, I can view religious art from the past and be moved by it even though I am not spiritual and don't believe in the religion being represented in the work.

Art has to be assessed as art, not as politics. At the same time it is still possible to be critical of the political content or message of art or cultural works.

Most of pop culture will always mostly reflect the ideas of the ruling class (until the revolution) so if radicals could only enjoy things that expressed the same worldview, then none of us would ever go out much.

[Steve_j]

Nonsense, what you are saying is so subjective. You can only place one artist over another in context of your views and what you find to be "high quality" or talent.

99% of the music i listen to has no political context, many of (IMO) the greatest composers are unknow by most, and 20th centry composers like John Cage, Pierre Schaeffer ect and their contribution to music shit all over wagner.

But thats just my opinion,

some people like yourself might enjoy the melodramatic operas of wagner,

some people like myself might enjoy the challenging ideas of John cage

Some others on this board might enjoy the ability of some bands to express their political views through music.

Like i said its personal opinion, get over it.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I'm not talking about whether Wagner is better than Cage.

I just find it tragic when some people will actively not listen to modern popular music, or the music of the great composers, simply because it is not in some way revolutionary.

Interestingly, i'm not actually a Wagner fanatic. More of a Chopin/Liszt (shopping list?) fan myself. :D

[Steve_j]

I just find it tragic when people think that some how their taste in music is more correct than someone elses.

My mother only listens to lyric based popular music, should i chastise her because she does not actively listen to the amazing work of japanese noise artists? Simply because it is not written in a popular format?

[New Tet]

I hope I don't get pilloried for asking the following question, and if it is against the rules to ask such a question then I would view that as pretty totalitarian, but here we go..

Why must the left be so obsessed with 'leftist' culture? As a musician myself, I find it offensive that people should judge music, to an extent, on its political message.

I do not believe for a minute that Bach, Beethoven or Chopin sat down with a political message in mind. Even in the case of Wagner, an identifiable racist, his music must surely be enjoyed as an art form, rather than pre-judged because of the views of the composer. To listen to Wagner does not implicate the listener, surely?

Culture should be something to enjoy, to relax with and to judge on relevant merits. Good art should not be shunned because of some personal expectation of political acceptability.

I think that there is a time and place to evaluate art on its social and political merits as well as solely on its aesthetic virtues. Good post!