Any Democratic Socialists here ?

[tradeunionsupporter]

Any Democratic Socialists here ?

[Dejavu]

Most of the communists here are. Ideologically and maybe in principle they are communists but most are practical social democrats/democratic socialists. You'll find most agree with government largess , UHC and other massive welfare programs.

[RGacky3]

All socialists, other than leninists and their offshoots, are essencailly democratic socialists, considering socialism is simply applying democracy to the economy and workplace, even leninists consider the system in the USSR to be democratic (which to be fair, there were democratic elements in it, but not substantially). So ... Yeah.

I consider myself a syndicalst along more anarchist lines. i.e. I believe in labor unions uniting workers to take down capitalism and take over the workplaces. However that IS democratic socialism, since what capitalism would be replaced with is democratic control of the workplace.

[Dejavu]

I consider myself a syndicalst along more anarchist lines. i.e. I believe in labor unions uniting workers to take down capitalism and take over the workplaces. However that IS democratic socialism, since what capitalism would be replaced with is democratic control of the workplace.

Do you consider anarcho-syndicalism as an organizational model for a free society or is it a means of transition into a better conceived society ( i.e. pure communism?)

[RGacky3]

Do you consider anarcho-syndicalism as an organizational model for a free society or is it a means of transition into a better conceived society ( i.e. pure communism?)

I think it is an organizational model for a free society, and FOR communism.

[Dejavu]

I think it is an organizational model for a free society, and FOR communism.

That's cool man. I want to talk to you in PM about that in detail actually. I get conflicting opinions of syndicalism but I find your view very interesting.

[RGacky3]

To be honest, I am not to interested in "pure communism" because its been so mystified by many communists, I'm not interested in 'models' I'm interested in how people can be free and how society can be fair, and in my opninion syndicalism and no-nonsense democratic unions are a wonderful way to put shift power from the Capitalist to the worker, and are also naturally great tools to run the workplace.

But keep in mind unions can be very broad, its really just an organization of workers.

Would you consider the worker controlled factories in Argentina to be union controlled? I don't know, its a matter of definition.

But ultimately I'm for freedom and equal rights, which means I'm for socialism and democracy.

[Dejavu]

To be honest, I am not to interested in "pure communism" because its been so mystified by many communists, I'm not interested in 'models' I'm interested in how people can be free and how society can be fair, and in my opninion syndicalism and no-nonsense democratic unions are a wonderful way to put shift power from the Capitalist to the worker, and are also naturally great tools to run the workplace.

But keep in mind unions can be very broad, its really just an organization of workers.

Would you consider the worker controlled factories in Argentina to be union controlled? I don't know, its a matter of definition.

But ultimately I'm for freedom and equal rights, which means I'm for socialism and democracy.

I share the same goals and ambitions you do. I'm right there with you. I think while we agree on the ends , we might somewhat disagree on the means but that's fantastic, I think there are multiple paths to freedom simply because people themselves are diverse individuals which form complex societies.

The mutualist side of me is very much in favor of something like co-ops and non-state unions. I personally find workers' democracy innovative and I think its workable but we should be honest about the possible shortfalls and deal with them in kind.

[RGacky3]

The problem is, I sometimes, support government action when it benefits the people, such as public healthcare, why?

Because the government is accountable to the people (somewhat) corporations are not AT ALL. However you believe that somehow corporations, or private power, is better than public power.

You also have this insane notion that somehow (I at least think it was you, it might have been someone else) the "free market" or property rights will still be around without the state. So you focus on destroying the state and upholding property rights (read laws), and the free (read rulled by the top 1 to 5% of the population) market.

What your in favor of is making things more and more tyrannical (under the boot of the Capitalist) with the dream of hopefully having this "free market" utopia, which is impossible.

[GPDP]

Any Democratic Socialists here ?

It depends on what you mean by that term.

If by Democratic Socialist, you mean a socialist that believes in democracy, and that government should be thoroughly democratic at all levels, then yes, just about ALL of us are Democratic Socialists. We are socialists in that we believe in worker ownership of the means of production, and we are democrats in that we believe society should be run democratically.

If, however, by this term you mean a socialist that wants to work through the existing "democratic" system to achieve socialism - that is, reforming capitalism until it turns into socialism, without the need of a revolution - then no, there are very few such individuals, and I believe board policy is to restrict them, since this is, after all, a board for the REVOLUTIONARY left.

[Dejavu]

The problem is, I sometimes, support government action when it benefits the people, such as public healthcare, why?

Because the government is accountable to the people (somewhat) corporations are not AT ALL. However you believe that somehow corporations, or private power, is better than public power.

You also have this insane notion that somehow (I at least think it was you, it might have been someone else) the "free market" or property rights will still be around without the state. So you focus on destroying the state and upholding property rights (read laws), and the free (read rulled by the top 1 to 5% of the population) market.

What your in favor of is making things more and more tyrannical (under the boot of the Capitalist) with the dream of hopefully having this "free market" utopia, which is impossible.

The concept of property and the functioning of markets was not born into existence with some legislation from a state. These ideas transcend government and are only present in the laws of most major societies because they are common human values ( like the aversion to murder , and the aversion to theft - which would have no meaning without a concept of property). And yeah thanks for telling me what I think quite dogmatically.

I don't think these rational concepts will go away with the state. I think they will stay but be radically different. The few cannot use the monopoly of guns against the many. Costs become internalized, etc. The crony capitalist that has people under his boot only has them there because the state is keeping them there. Its quite obvious that I won't make utopian claims that I have a 'plan' to abolish something like greed. I don't think it can be done and I highly doubt even the most competent social engineers can without themselves becoming corrupted with power. Rather , bad eggs will exist in society , people that wish to exploit other people, all I can say is that without a state they lose a lot of power over everyone else.

I think sane socialists agree on some kind of principles regarding trade and possessions. We are not really in disagreement there. I strongly agree with Proudhon as regards the state and privileged ( or what he called 'private') property and believe that that kind of property distribution is unjust.

[IcarusAngel]

All versions of leftism essentially fall under the domain of democratic-socialism:

syndicalism/anarchism: small, competing cooperatives of democratic socialist societies

socialism: Large scale democratic community with individuals taking different roles.

etc.

Really, democratic-socialism is a new way of looking at an economic system, one based not on markets and domination, but instead based on cooperation and production. Even people who advocate odd 'resource based socialism' are actually democratic socialists at heart, they just don't like the label.

Everything that has been successful in society has largely had democratic elements that were held back by market forces.