Are All Cops Lumpen?

[New Tet]

This is probably an old Revleft question but I'm too lazy to search your archives so fuck you if I'm dredging up old slant.

Recruiting and agitating for socialism within the law enforcement agencies of a country may seem unthinkable to some, including myself, but can't socialist do legally to the state what capitalism and the state itself have done to the workers and their movements even in violation of their own laws?

As part of the overall strategy for achieving socialism, there ought to be an open, well thought out and deliberate effort to win over people employed in law enforcement for the cause and in the defense of taking, holding and operating democratically the workplaces of the country.

If you agree with the above proposition how would you go about devising a plan to plant moles in the rat holes of the chotas?

If you disagree how would you go about neutralizing the cops in the event of an attempted takeover by the workers?

Just because bloodless solutions elude me don't mean there ain't any, right?

[PRC-UTE]

No, because the legal status of their work determines whether a worker is lumpen or not.

Pigs, prison guards and so on are petit bourgeois. They do not produce surplus value, and do not perform work that is necessary for other workers to produce surplus value. Also their relationship with the working class is a repressive one. They are not exploited but are actually parasites.

On top of that, they are usually corrupt and lining their pockets by stealing from workers and others, or actually taking bribes.

We shouldn't waste our time attempting to win them over, either.

Moved to learning.

[New Tet]

No, because the legal status of their work determines whether a worker is lumpen or not.

I'm not sure I understand that. Please explain.


Pigs, prison guards and so on are petit bourgeois. They do not produce surplus value, and do not perform work that is necessary for other workers to produce surplus value. Also their relationship with the working class is a repressive one. They are not exploited but are actually parasites.I didn't know farm animals had the same legal status as humans, really.

For the sake of this discussion, and as an example of good moderation, maybe we ought to refrain from characterizing other people in dehumanizing
terms. I am sure that you and I would strongly object if someone used homophobic terms to refer to others, including cops, no?



On top of that, they are usually corrupt and lining their pockets by stealing from workers and others, or actually taking bribes.I agree.

But that's hardly a fair thing to argue to exclude some, if not most of them from the working class. Corruption inhabits every sphere of life within capitalism. Capitalism as such is legal only because they say so and we allow it.

Tell me, which capitalist enterprise does not steal from workers with the active cooperation of other workers including oneself? Which corporation does not engage in one illegality or another in competition with each other and against us as a class?


We shouldn't waste our time attempting to win them over, either.Then maybe you can tell me how you would go about neutralizing the cops in the event of an attempted worker takeover of the economy?

[Schrödinger's Cat]

For the sake of this discussion, and as an example of good moderation, maybe we ought to refrain from characterizing other people in dehumanizing
terms. Too true. The motivations for joining law enforcement or becoming a prison guard or a soldier are as varied as any other profession, and like teaching, the current circumstances said individuals deal with over time grinds down their idealism into complacency. I think the main issue some users have with uniform-wearing proletariats derives from the reality of scarce interaction. Most of our dealings with these people are through street cops - you know, party busters, speeding ticket distributors, small disputes arbitrators. They're going to piss us off because, by necessity, their job requires pissing someone off. But what about forensic investigators? SWAT? Protection and law enforcement through a specialized process in any modern society is a necessary function for there to be order. If they're pigs, we better cut down on the bacon.

The problem with the profession of law enforcement and prison work is that for you to succeed in your duties questioning is unacceptable. A grocery store clerk or a professor have much more freedom to think independently; police are constantly told that if they don't standardize their practice, not only will they lose their job but also they will be contradicting their own desires for a stable, free society. Some of this is true (we can't have prison guards releasing rapists on account of them being "nice fellows," and an individual soldier who turns his back on a battle is putting his comrades in danger), but to the extent that its promoted only serves to penalize their thoughts. This is done purposely.

That said, if you ask police officers about problems they see with the legal system (when they're not on duty), you'll find a much more humane face in most instances. Many see the war on drugs as a farce, for example. Likewise prison guards are some of the biggest critics of the current prison system.


Also their relationship with the working class is a repressive one.In some ways it is; in other ways it's necessary. Unfortunately, they are taught that their devotion to the current state of the legal system is a fair representation of justice. Police officers are tricked into being the strong arm of the bourgeoisie, but at the same time, they are necessary for an ordered society.


If you disagree how would you go about neutralizing the cops in the event of an attempted takeover by the workers?With prison guards, a rational approach to institutional reform would do wonders for bringing in their base.

The best thing leftists can do for any profession perceived to be overwhelmingly reactionary is to infiltrate and succeed in that job. Become a police officer, rise to a high ranked position, and open up dialogue with your cadets. Too many well-off leftists enter academia and complain about how certain workers just don't "get it."

[el_chavista]

Results for pig

Definition
pig noun (UNPLEASANT PERSON)

/pɪg/ n [C]

•
informal a person who is unpleasant and difficult to deal with
He was an absolute pig to her.
He's a real pig of a man.


•
offensive a police officer


* pig noun ANIMAL
* pig noun UNPLEASANT PERSON
* pig noun EATS TOO MUCH
* guinea pig noun ANIMAL
* guinea pig noun TEST
* male chauvinist (pig) noun
* pig iron noun
* be a pig to do/play, etc.
* make a pig of yourself
* a pig in a poke

from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary

[New Tet]

Results for pig

Definition
pig noun (UNPLEASANT PERSON)

/pɪg/ n [C]

•
informal a person who is unpleasant and difficult to deal with
He was an absolute pig to her.
He's a real pig of a man.


•
offensive a police officer


* pig noun ANIMAL
* pig noun UNPLEASANT PERSON
* pig noun EATS TOO MUCH
* guinea pig noun ANIMAL
* guinea pig noun TEST
* male chauvinist (pig) noun
* pig iron noun
* be a pig to do/play, etc.
* make a pig of yourself
* a pig in a poke

from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary

Still, I'd refrain from using the term just out of political consideration. It's impolitic to insult someone holding a gun or a batton to your head.

[bcbm]

no, all cops are bastards.

[PRC-UTE]

I'm not sure I understand that. Please explain.

Well they're not part of the underground economy, as lumpens are. Their relationship to production is to police those who get out of line and break the bosses' laws. Just ask anyone who's ever been on strike or been to a demonstration the cops didn't approve of. And the situations where they provide vital assistance can be done by other emergency workers.



For the sake of this discussion, and as an example of good moderation, maybe we ought to refrain from characterizing other people in dehumanizing
terms. I am sure that you and I would strongly object if someone used homophobic terms to refer to others, including cops, no?


Some might agree with you, and I think you'd be correct to say that on most forums, but here we dont' want our comrades to have illusions. I won't stop calling cops what they are. Too many experiences with the scum.



But that's hardly a fair thing to argue to exclude some, if not most of them from the working class. Corruption inhabits every sphere of life within capitalism. Capitalism as such is legal only because they say so and we allow it.

Sure some workers are corrupt. But how many of your workmates point a gun at you and then go through your pockets?

Besides, it's not a few rotten apples; everything police do or say is with the threat of violence behind it. It's inherent to their work to be repressive.



Tell me, which capitalist enterprise does not steal from workers with the active cooperation of other workers including oneself? Which corporation does not engage in one illegality or another in competition with each other and against us as a class?

Then maybe you can tell me how you would go about neutralizing the cops in the event of an attempted worker takeover of the economy?

Some would see that trying to stop the workers would be pointless and give up or join in. Others would fight back. There's no way to neutralise them all as you suggest. We simply don't have that kind of power and there's too many variables. There are some who see it as "just a job" and would abandon it; others cherish their power over others and would not give it up so easily.

[mikelepore]

Pigs, prison guards and so on are petit bourgeois. They do not produce surplus value, and do not perform work that is necessary for other workers to produce surplus value. Also their relationship with the working class is a repressive one. They are not exploited but are actually parasites.

They are not petit bourgeois. That term refers to self-employed small business owners.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

no, all cops are bastards.

Sarcasm?

[Jimmie Higgins]

As others have said, Cops and Prison guards are not part of the working class. Like Judges and Military Officers they are professionals of the repressive arm of the state.

Most cops come from working class backgrounds, but their job gives them a priviliged position in society.

1. You are allowed to murder and beat whoever you want for the most part. Similar to fascist states that give their Brownshirt thugs extra-legal room to do what they want in order to secure a group of thugs loyal to the state, active-duty cops are VERY VERY RARELY charged with any crimes related to beatings or shootings.

The cop that shot Oscar Grant in Oakland was seen on video shooting him in the back; the cops let him go to ANOTHER state to chill for a week. the didn't arrest him - even though it was on video all over youtube - for over a week and 2 things happened: first, he quit the police force and second, there were small riots and thousands of protesters surrounding city hall.

Workers do not get the same treatment.

2. Cops and prison guards have unions - the state give into their demands without any real struggle. Some cop unions have struck, but it is very rare. Cop unions do not have any solidarity with other unions and send their members to bust heads at picket lines of other unions.

3. Starting salary for teachers (who may not technically be prols, but have become sort of "proletaritized professionals") is a little over 30,000/year. Many are in programs where you teach to pay back loans or training, so really it's less than 30k for teachers. For Cops in Oakland CA, the starting salary is $70,000 and less than 2 out of 10 Oakland cops actually lives in Oakland (it's similar in most US cities).

Copwatch info on Oakland PD
http://www.redwoodcurtaincopwatch.net/node/184

-------

The state does everything it can to separate these "workers" from identifying with the working class. Unlike drafted or enlisted GIs, cops can quit the police whenever they want and many often do due to racism, sexism, or just plain thuggery in their departments that they do not want to be a part of.

I believe that it is possible and necessary to win over some sections of GIs on a class solidarity basis (hell they even make shit wages as part of the military), but cops are a different animal (oink) and although we might be able to win over a few individuals, I think that's the exception and if we win them over, they basically cease to be cops anyway.

[bcbm]

Sarcasm?

no.

[PRC-UTE]

They are not petit bourgeois. That term refers to self-employed small business owners.

...and peasants- that was the single largest group of petit bourgeoisie in the Europe of Marx's time.

in the communist manifesto it adds that baillifs, overseers and shopkeepers are at that time replacing the small capitalists and playing the same role.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Like Judges and Military Officers they are professionals of the repressive arm of the state.Again you're not acknowledging how these roles are split between a necessary service and the protection of class order. Judges, prison guards, and police expend their labor in necessary fields; it is true that the bourgeoisie align workers against themselves either consciously or not, but the same can be said about anyone working in the field of banking and credit, since financial stranglehold has a larger impact on most workers than any street cop.

The difference between workers in these professions and workers in a factory is one of tasks. Police officers are going to need the authority of force when some circumstances pop up and the public expects force, but since they're like most workers in that they don't question the current state of things, they perform their duties without ever challenging the institutions they perform under.


active-duty cops are VERY VERY RARELY charged with any crimes related to beatings or shootings. This is true for urban cops and prison guards - where there is a constant pressure to take on drugs, poverty, prostitution, and (race-based) gangs. Indeed the bulk of indicators related to police brutality all show this is a metropolitan phenomena. But I'd like to see how any population - even a group of angels - would act if given the task of maintaining order in cities like Washington DC.

The Stanford prison experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment)explains the motivations behind such violence. Normal people become ruthless when entrusted with all this responcibility. Prison guards and urban cops face a complicated and life-threatening series of tasks that break apart their humanity. It is just the nature of the job. While you tried to distinguish between military personnel and police officers, very few soldiers actually want to quit - I don't know if there's a documented comparison, but I'd be willing to wager there were more examples (percentage-wise) of desertion and refusing to deploy during the Civil War and WWI than the during the Iraqi War. Soldiers, like police officers and prison guards, enter the profession thinking they'll get compensated (either in the form of respect or financial incentives) for protecting vague notions like law, stability, and freedom.


2. Cops and prison guards have unions - the state give into their demands without any real struggle. The average entry-level salary for a prison guard in the United States is $22,000 (http://www.schoolsintheusa.com/careerprofiles_details.cfm?carid=775). Their unions are not as powerful as one might initially assume, which explains why there is rarely talk of prison reform even though some of the largest proponents of smaller facilities and rehabilitation programs are prison guards.

It's easy to complain about police/prison guard brutality if we think their actions come about in some vacuum, but we're talking about work that is more dangerous and demanding than 99% of all competing public-sector jobs. Just as we see excess brutality in the military, we'll see it with urban police and prison guards until radical reform comes about via abolishing the war on drugs, legalizing prostitution, and reforming the prison system. And like I said, I bet most police officers and prison guards would welcome these reforms.

An excellent article written by a police chief on the matter: http://www.csdp.org/publicservice/police.htm


A fundamental police role is to enforce and uphold the rule of the law, and to do so equitably without regard to race, ethnicity, or social or economic status. Sadly, for much of the Nation's history, the legal order has not only countenanced but sustained slavery, segregation, and discrimination. And the fact that the police were bound to uphold that order, set a pattern for police behavior and attitudes toward minority communities that has persisted until the present day.

In no arena is this continued discrimination more apparent than in America's "war on drugs." Police chiefs have enough problems dealing with misconduct and abuse of authority by some officers without the added burden of having to enforce laws that are themselves mechanisms for discrimination, in the tradition of the Jim Crow era in American history. Obligating the police to enforce unjust laws, most often in inner-city and minority communities, perpetuated the legacy of fear and mistrust, and further erodes relations between the police and the community.


A recent Police Foundation survey found that over 95 percent of rank-and-file police officers believe that the most effective way to control crime is by working with citizens and communities.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

no, all cops are bastards.

Yeah, those guys in the special investigation units who track down serial murderers need to be shot.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Yeah, those guys in the special investigation units who track down serial murderers need to be shot.

Are you telling me they aren't part of the apparatus which is there for the sole reason of upholding bourgeois justice. These people want to see these murderers locked up for life, there is nothing noble about that job in the slightest.

[F9]

Sarcasm?

Please tell me you dont support cops now, too...

[ChrisK]

Are you telling me they aren't part of the apparatus which is there for the sole reason of upholding bourgeois justice. These people want to see these murderers locked up for life, there is nothing noble about that job in the slightest.

Are you telling me that workers sole responsibility isn't to uphold the market structure? Seriously, just because one works for a state and one works for a corporation, doesn't change the fact that both are workers are can engage in solidarity with one another.

Take this example, cops are more than willing to let traffic violations slide when your job is to drive. I deliver pizzas and have had cops who have made speed traps ignore me going 20 mph over the speed limit. The one time one actually pulled me over he said he wasn't going to give me a ticket because he knew my boss was probably a dick pressuring me to speed. They can have a great deal of empathy because most of them are in a simular situation.

Additionally, as mentioned by GeneCosta, there are psychological experiments done on people in these positions. Much like soldiers, when put in extremely stressful situations such as they are, their minds protect them and will tend to cause them to be more willing to do things such as kill people.

However, it must be noted that I don't support any level of police brutality. I think that racism in the police force is unforgivable and far to prevelant. The cop who shot Newton deserved to be shot back etc. But we have to remember that there are members of the working class who exhibit similar behavior, this does not mean all workers are racist, lynchers, only that some are.

[bcbm]

sigh. this crap again.


Yeah, those guys in the special investigation units who track down serial murderers need to be shot.

well, firstly, all cops are bastards (a.c.a.b.) is a slogan. its more popular in other countries than in america, but in anycase i was making a bit of a joke.

but, really, the institutional role of the police is to be "bastards." their primary function is the maintenance of social order in defense of bourgeois rule. that this occasionally manifests itself in positive ways does not change the fundamental nature of the police. the same cops who track serial murderers could just as easily be the ones making files on leftists or shooting them in cold blood a la the black panthers.

[New Tet]

Please tell me you dont support cops now, too...

In my mind it's not a matter of supporting them but one of preparing the groundwork for having them come over to our side when they are needed to guard the workplaces from sabotage or counter-revolution in behalf of the workers.

I need not remind you or anyone else here that the cornerstone of a real working class revolution is the complete takeover of all the workplaces of the country by the workers.

Who, besides the unarmed and untrained workers, will provide the security in these facilities while their attention is focused on planning and executing the way forward? A ready-made revolutionary security force will not spontaneously hatch out for them to implement at a moment's notice.

This is a practical question that ought to be discussed now, before things get hot. And that's the reason I originally started this thread in "workers' struggle. But the "Learning" forum is good; it seems we all need a bit more learning.

[bcbm]

Who, besides the unarmed and untrained workers, will provide the security in these facilities while their attention is focused on planning and executing the way forward? A ready-made revolutionary security force will not spontaneously hatch out for them to implement at a moment's notice.plenty of workers in the united states own and know how to use weapons. i think all militants should own and know how to use weapons as well. i think expecting the police, who have historically not been among the first to "switch," to protect what our class controls is suicide.

[Os Cangaceiros]

If you disagree how would you go about neutralizing the cops in the event of an attempted takeover by the workers?


In a real revolutionary situation the cops are going to be the least of your problems.

In any case, the police serve a fundamentally reactionary role as the guardians of capital. I really can't stand the argument of, "but what about the cops who stop domestic violence, or catch serial killers, or rescue kittens from trees, or stop [insert crime here]?"

Yeah, cops are people, and there are "nice cops" out there. I got pulled over a couple of weeks ago and the cop let me off with a warning because he had friends who lived in my town in Alaska. He was a nice guy. Doesn't mean the fundamental role he plays in society is any less reactionary, though.

[BogdanV]

If put this way, we can argue that those who work in factories are also pigs because they financially sustain the bourgeois, and what about those who work in weapons factories ? They support the imperialistic goals of the ruling class. Also, there are lots of greedy assholes ready to kiss their boss's ass to climb higher on the hierarchical stair.
There are also lots of workers who accept being bribed, there are guys who accept acting as agents within strikes, to help the submission of their colleagues, people who do all sorts of disgusting stuff because their boss constrained them to do so, etc.

This would imply that in order to free the proletariat, we would have to eliminate the proletariat, because it sustains the ruling class. But this is nonsense.

Nazis justify the systematic murder of non-whites because of the actions of a minority of these communities. Their fanaticism is based on grossly-exaggerated stereotypes, because they are viewing the world through a uni-dimensional point of view.
We think that we are superior to them because we see past these stupidities, yet we fall in the same trap: we judge certain professional categories through personal, subjective experiences and stereotypes.
It seems that some of us view policemen (in this case) the same way that nazis view black people or jews. They are all evil and need to die!
Does this make us better than your average racist scumbag ?

I personally don't judge people by race, colour, sex, job, class and any such classification. I judge someone by what he personally thinks and does, based on my subjective way of thinking, because, as the saying goes, "looks can be deceiving".

[ZeroNowhere]

This would imply that in order to free the proletariat, we would have to eliminate the proletariat, because it sustains the ruling class. But this is nonsense.Not really, it's actually what we advocate.

[bcbm]

we judge certain professional categories through personal, subjective experiences and stereotypes.

no we judge them based on their institutional role: to maintain bourgeois rule through force.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

no we judge them based on their institutional role: to maintain bourgeois rule through force.

And those who work in finance uphold bourgeois rule through other means that actually have a larger impact on workers' lives, but we still consider bank tellers, tax agents, and loan consultants workers so long as they're not independently employed.


Doesn't mean the fundamental role he plays in society is any less reactionary, though.And yet in a socialist society you'll still need people who are specialized in protection. Like I said, they perform two tasks: one that is necessary, and one that is clearly set against worker solidarity.


MilitiasMilitias are archaic institutions best left to regions of the world where you don't want to be certain of your rights the next morning. They are not historically progressive in the least, having a long history of being employed to defend slave institutions and (now) targeting Hispanics out of some bizarre notion "illegals" are enemies, for example. The specialization of defense has been a necessary outcome.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Are you telling me they aren't part of the apparatus which is there for the sole reason of upholding bourgeois justice. These people want to see these murderers locked up for life, there is nothing noble about that job in the slightest.

Practically all of contemporary society thinks first degree murderers should be locked up for life. It's a problem, but it's not one concentrated in the minds of police officers. Indeed some of the most vulgar notions of justice can be found in the South where certain American workers pride themselves on ethical defenses of torture and the death penalty. If you want to make this a discussion of what workers are the most reactionary, I think there's a host of people who could outdo cops.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

I haven't read through all of the thread & I'm relatively new to this so excuse the stupidity, but why are the police enemies of the proletariat? Because surely there needs to be some sort of order in place to protect people from violence.

[Orwell'sLeftEye]

Cops are jokers. Hope I helped.

[bcbm]

And those who work in finance uphold bourgeois rule through other means that actually have a larger impact on workers' lives
finance workers aren't the ones who will break a strike, arrest and jail militants or shoot us in our beds.


but we still consider bank tellers, tax agents, and loan consultants workers so long as they're not independently employed.you see no difference between simply working in the capitalist economy and actively defending the rule of the bourgeoisie against the working class through force? certainly our ultimate hope is for those employed in both to negate their roles, but in the immediate sense the police officer is not our ally, they are an agent used by the ruling class against us.

[Coggeh]

no we judge them based on their institutional role: to maintain bourgeois rule through force.
And cops can never turn towards class struggle ? on the demos in ireland on Friday prison officers unions and police unions all came out with other workers against government pay cuts and spending cuts .

There is no denying they are tools of the state and their sole purpose is to maintain whatever class is in power but police etc can also organise along class lines in order to defend there rights etc along with any other worker . Their are many other jobs that exist to prop up capitalism and aren't as hardly scrutinized as police officers .

And contrary to what many like to believe most people don't go become an officer because their racist or just pricks but because their no other jobs around for them .

The argument that their not workers because they don't produce a surplus value is idiotic , most workers don't actually produce a surplus value , its called working in the services industry .

[Schrödinger's Cat]

finance workers aren't the ones who will break a strike, arrest and jail militants or shoot us in our beds.No, but they're the ones who will pull your bed right out from beneath you and throw you into the streets.

Police make arrests because they're instructed to do so by the legal system; they are complacent agents, just like practically every worker at the moment.

[BogdanV]

no we judge them based on their institutional role: to maintain bourgeois rule through force.

Yes, the institution as a whole is a handy tool of repression for whoever wields it, but the people under it are people nonetheless. Just because you work for Boeing doesn't make you a warmonger for instance.
You sign-in for a job generally either because this was the only option you had of getting hired or because of some idealist motivation that is far from reality (a fact that you may or not realize during your job).
Anyway, like always the individual is not to blame. He is a simple pawn in the hands of the "higher forces". He is constrained to obey, because he financially depends on his boss (or he might suffer other kinds of repercussions).This is a stressful job because you're squashed between the law and the people and between the two, you have to follow the law.After going through this day after day, you become used to it, there's nothing you can do to prevent routine from taking hold of yourself.
Of course, you can quit, but most of the time, if you leave, you're doomed to spending your life trying to get rehired.
Fact is, except for retards who find it relaxing and fun to crack skulls and beat the shit out of others, the rest of the low-ranking policemen are simply people who went through a long and constant "robotization".
As was mentioned by a comrade, after work, when they can return to their "human state", they are average people who have their own problems like everyone else.

If there's something I feel for these guys, its not hate, but pity, because they are crushed between the classes. The bourgeois don't give a fuck about them as much as most of us, which really leaved them stranded on No Man's Land.
And you know what's the worst thing about this ? In the case of a revolution, most of these guys won't have the guts to rebel against their bosses, fearing both the people, the rulers and their own colleagues who could report them. They're really fubar. Quite like the blue Outer Party members of INGSOC. They live a crap life but they got used to it so much that they don't care any more. Who will liberate them ?
Regardless of their fate, the State and the capitalists must fall and any counter-revolutionary actions must be prevented before they even manage to come to fruition.

[bcbm]

And cops can never turn towards class struggle ? on the demos in ireland on Friday prison officers unions and police unions all came out with other workers against government pay cuts and spending cuts .

cops can only turn to the class struggle by ceasing to be cops. the same goes for screws.


There is no denying they are tools of the state and their sole purpose is to maintain whatever class is in power but police etc can also organise along class lines in order to defend there rights etc along with any other worker .

i have a hard time supporting police officers in their struggle for higher wages and bigger budgets with which to enforce bourgeois rule. the interests of the police are at odds with the interest of the working class.


Their are many other jobs that exist to prop up capitalism and aren't as hardly scrutinized as police officers.

capitalism, like any system, is geared towards its own preservation. all economic activity within the global system supports it in one way or another; this is a non-argument. the role of police officers, prison guards, mercenaries, etc is of a fundamentally different sort because they operate as the armed wing of the ruling class that serves to suppress all threats to bourgeois order.


No, but they're the ones who will pull your bed right out from beneath you and throw you into the streets.

they are? or the institutions they work for are?


Police make arrests because they're instructed to do so by the legal system; they are complacent agents, just like practically every worker at the moment.

the legal system is the law of the ruling class, not a neutral entity. their primary function is to maintain that rule through force and this separates them from other "support" occupations. in order to be on the side of the working class, they would need to cease being police officers.


Anyway, like always the individual is not to blame.

which is why i am not blaming the individual, but opposing the institutional role of the police. i don't blame cops for being cops, but i know which side i stand on when they come to break a strike.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I can't believe this is even a debate here.

Thoes who are supporting cops are missing the point of the fundamental role they play in CAPITALIST society. Urban police forces as we know them have ONLY existed since the 1860s or so and are built around keeping bourgoise order in industrial capitalism.

In a worker-run society will there be "cops" - I don't know, but one thing's for sure: if workers do need some kind of force to direct traffic or protect people or whatnot, it will be a totally different institution.

All the institutions of the modern capitalist state are built around the needs of the system: in it's in the best interests of capital to have brutality, they will encourage that; if peaceful tactics are necessary in order to not provoke the population, then capital will encourage more moderate policing forces.

[ChrisK]

I can't believe this is even a debate here.

Thoes who are supporting cops are missing the point of the fundamental role they play in CAPITALIST society. Urban police forces as we know them have ONLY existed since the 1860s or so and are built around keeping bourgoise order in industrial capitalism.

In a worker-run society will there be "cops" - I don't know, but one thing's for sure: if workers do need some kind of force to direct traffic or protect people or whatnot, it will be a totally different institution.

All the institutions of the modern capitalist state are built around the needs of the system: in it's in the best interests of capital to have brutality, they will encourage that; if peaceful tactics are necessary in order to not provoke the population, then capital will encourage more moderate policing forces.

What about soliders? I know that the ISO see's soliders turning to class struggle as an important part of the revoltion. Why not cops too? They play the same fundamental role except that soliders expand America's capitalist powers throughout the world in an even more violent fashion.

Much like soliders, cops could join the struggle and could go against their indoctrination.

[Jimmie Higgins]

What about soliders? I know that the ISO see's soliders turning to class struggle as an important part of the revoltion. Why not cops too? They play the same fundamental role except that soliders expand America's capitalist powers throughout the world in an even more violent fashion.

Much like soliders, cops could join the struggle and could go against their indoctrination.

Like i said in an earlier post, I think that GIs are different than military officers or police (also called officers). I think the best analogy would be that cops are like Blackwarter guards rather than conscripted or enlisted GIs. If you are an immigrant for the Philippines or Mexico, and an enlisted GI, your class interests are not served by "victory" for your home power. If you are an Indian soldier serving in the British military or an Irish soldier serving the empire in British occupied Africa somewhere, then "winning" means that your class interests have not been served. The Irish or Indian soldiers will have to go home and contend with an even more powerful empire.

At home war means a crackdown on rights and rations for working class people or higher prices for goods (or debt and slashing of social services to pay for wars). Abroad, conquest gains you nothing as a GI and probably fucks up your life - most resistance by GIs begins with just not obeying orders or refusing to follow orders that will put you in a combat situation. Officers and lifers have careerist interests and so they want to put GIs into combat situations in order to gain experience and move ahead. The military leadership is aligned with the ruling class and are basically the same types of people (and in the same families as people) that become high court judges or politicians or CEOs.

So would a beat-cop be like a GI? No - first of all starting salaries for cops is easily 3 or more times what a GI makes. Cops are not put into service for a term of years where they are not allowed to have certain views on things or speak publicly about what they do and so on. If you are enlisted, go to Iraq and realize you've been lied to, then you are stuck. If you join the cops, find out that your fellow officers expect you to beat any suspect who runs when you ask them to stop (this is a pretty common unwritten rule in police forces) and don't want to brutalize people, then you just wash out and quit the force.

If you are a beat cop and like the power to beat anyone who runs or talks back to you, then you actually benefit if the ruling class is able to expand its repressive powers. So regular cops have an interest in making sure that their fellow cops don't get exposed for brutality or actually punished for this. Police forces have all these fraternal orders and codes and union lawyers all dedicated to making sure that there is a code of silence.

Many cops do quit and try and expose what goes on and I'm sure in a revolutionary period, many more individual cops will dessert their posts or quit the police.

[ChrisK]

Like i said in an earlier post, I think that GIs are different than military officers or police (also called officers). I think the best analogy would be that cops are like Blackwarter guards rather than conscripted or enlisted GIs. If you are an immigrant for the Philippines or Mexico, and an enlisted GI, your class interests are not served by "victory" for your home power. If you are an Indian soldier serving in the British military or an Irish soldier serving the empire in British occupied Africa somewhere, then "winning" means that your class interests have not been served. The Irish or Indian soldiers will have to go home and contend with an even more powerful empire.

At home war means a crackdown on rights and rations for working class people or higher prices for goods (or debt and slashing of social services to pay for wars). Abroad, conquest gains you nothing as a GI and probably fucks up your life - most resistance by GIs begins with just not obeying orders or refusing to follow orders that will put you in a combat situation. Officers and lifers have careerist interests and so they want to put GIs into combat situations in order to gain experience and move ahead. The military leadership is aligned with the ruling class and are basically the same types of people (and in the same families as people) that become high court judges or politicians or CEOs.

So would a beat-cop be like a GI? No - first of all starting salaries for cops is easily 3 or more times what a GI makes. Cops are not put into service for a term of years where they are not allowed to have certain views on things or speak publicly about what they do and so on. If you are enlisted, go to Iraq and realize you've been lied to, then you are stuck. If you join the cops, find out that your fellow officers expect you to beat any suspect who runs when you ask them to stop (this is a pretty common unwritten rule in police forces) and don't want to brutalize people, then you just wash out and quit the force.

If you are a beat cop and like the power to beat anyone who runs or talks back to you, then you actually benefit if the ruling class is able to expand its repressive powers. So regular cops have an interest in making sure that their fellow cops don't get exposed for brutality or actually punished for this. Police forces have all these fraternal orders and codes and union lawyers all dedicated to making sure that there is a code of silence.

Many cops do quit and try and expose what goes on and I'm sure in a revolutionary period, many more individual cops will dessert their posts or quit the police.

The salary difference is two times, not three. Sorry, that parts not a big deal, just wanted to put it out there.

I think all of this can be summed up with the last paragraph you write. More than anything thats what I was trying to get at; cops have the capacity to join our side much like soliders do.

I wasn't trying to say that they're exactly the same or that thier situations are perfect reflections. I merely see the common thread in both job type (the advancement of bourgeoise power) and refusal to follow orders. As I've mentioned in an earlier post, I've personally had a cop let me off the hook just because he felt a sense of empathy for my situation. It was a tiny act of solidarity that stemmed from our mutual understanding that we're two people trying to make a living. So instead of giving me a massive ticket he let me off the hook.

[Luís Henrique]

no, all cops are bastards.

What's your problem with people born out of the wedlock?

Luís Henrique

[bcbm]

:rolleyes:

[New Tet]

I can't believe this is even a debate here.

Thoes who are supporting cops are missing the point of the fundamental role they play in CAPITALIST society. [...]

I am unaware that anyone here is "supporting" cops.

What I am arguing here is not for support of the cops but for creating some strategy that will compel them--the cops--to lend tactical support to a revolution when it comes.

[Luís Henrique]

:rolleyes:
Yeah...

Really progressist, to call people bastards when you don't like them.

Because we know that if a man is a piece of shit, it evidently is the fault of a woman.

Luís Henrique

[New Tet]

What about soliders? I know that the ISO see's soliders turning to class struggle as an important part of the revoltion. Why not cops too? They play the same fundamental role except that soliders expand America's capitalist powers throughout the world in an even more violent fashion.

Much like soliders, cops could join the struggle and could go against their indoctrination.

Besides, cops weren't born cops. Most of them have proletarian upbringings that make them in some way susceptible to issues of class struggle. Maybe the capitalist system benefits by making us see cops as enemies and not as potential allies.

[New Tet]

Yeah...

Really progressist, to call people bastards when you don't like them.

Because we know that if a man is a piece of shit, it evidently is the fault of a woman.

Luís Henrique

Like an old comrade once said to me when I called some capitalist a "son-of-a-*****": "Why take it out on his mom, comrade?"

[bcbm]

Yeah...

Really progressist, to call people bastards when you don't like them.

Because we know that if a man is a piece of shit, it evidently is the fault of a woman.

Luís Henrique

:rolleyes:


well, firstly, all cops are bastards (a.c.a.b.) is a slogan. its more popular in other countries than in america, but in anycase i was making a bit of a joke.

and all cops are men now?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Yeah...

Really progressist, to call people bastards when you don't like them.

Because we know that if a man is a piece of shit, it evidently is the fault of a woman.

Luís Henrique

Oh my fucking god.

[Luís Henrique]

Oh my fucking god.
It would be an actual improvement if Abraham's god was a fucking god, but we all know that he's against such activity.

Luís Henrique

[Andropov]

Yeah...

Really progressist, to call people bastards when you don't like them.

Because we know that if a man is a piece of shit, it evidently is the fault of a woman.

Luís Henrique
Bizarre, just bizarre.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I am unaware that anyone here is "supporting" cops.

What I am arguing here is not for support of the cops but for creating some strategy that will compel them--the cops--to lend tactical support to a revolution when it comes.

And I think maybe some of them can - as individuals. Historically there have been examples of cops that during times of heightened class struggle have refused orders to move on a protest or a strike. This refusal did not lead to mutiny and rebellion among police officers however and I wouldn't bank on trying to appeal to cops on a class basis to not attack my picket line.

As I said in my first post here, the ruling class does everything it can to remove cops from the working class. So while many do come from working class backgrounds, their class interests as cops are different than the class interests of other workers: a stronger police force with little room for citizen review is in the interest of cops, but is against the interest of workers.

Just look at the fact that social programs in urban areas and in states like California have been cut IN ORDER TO build more prisons and hire more police, buy faster cop cars and helicopters.

In order for a cop to act in working class interests, he/she must leave/get fired from the police force. This is generally not a collective action whereas among GIs any major resistance is always a collective action and a representation of class divisions within the military structure. The police do not have the same kind of class dynamic inside the police force that would compell a mass resistance of lower-ranking police against their officers.

[New Tet]

And I think maybe some of them can - as individuals. Historically there have been examples of cops that during times of heightened class struggle have refused orders to move on a protest or a strike. This refusal did not lead to mutiny and rebellion among police officers however and I wouldn't bank on trying to appeal to cops on a class basis to not attack my picket line.

As I said in my first post here, the ruling class does everything it can to remove cops from the working class. So while many do come from working class backgrounds, their class interests as cops are different than the class interests of other workers: a stronger police force with little room for citizen review is in the interest of cops, but is against the interest of workers.

Just look at the fact that social programs in urban areas and in states like California have been cut IN ORDER TO build more prisons and hire more police, buy faster cop cars and helicopters.

In order for a cop to act in working class interests, he/she must leave/get fired from the police force. This is generally not a collective action whereas among GIs any major resistance is always a collective action and a representation of class divisions within the military structure. The police do not have the same kind of class dynamic inside the police force that would compell a mass resistance of lower-ranking police against their officers.

A socialist I once knew (I met her for the first time near Oakland, btw) had worked, up until her retirement, as a police dispatcher in Minnesota. I recall expressing in front of her a profound hatred of cops by calling them 'pigs'. With a smile she said to me: "not all cops are pigs". That's when she told me what line of work she had done for over 25 years. Her name was Genevieve Gunderson and she once ran for vice-president in behalf of the Socialist Labor Party, a party often characterized by some at various times as dogmatic, ultra-left wing, sectarian and orthodox. In Minnesota, while working at a police station, she ran for various state and county offices under the banner of the SLP.

So, no, I don't think that someone working within the police department need or ought to quit there just because he has strong sympathy for the working class and socialism. One can be useful to the right cause even while working within a rotten institution like the police department.

[toughlove]

I would like to suggest that perhaps the reason why cops are so eager to create files on Leftists (besides the usual corruption of cops being bribed by business interests, which is not just a cop problem) is the attitude on this board that cops are pieces of shit rather than human beings. My father is a retired prison guard, and he saw his role as necessary to society. He was active in the prison guards' union to get decent wages and working conditions, in much the same way that any member of The Official Working Class tries to get decent working conditions and wages.

Most prison guards lack anything more than a high school education, and are employed as such because they have a real need to support their families. I don't believe I've seen anyone on the Left acknowledge the basic humanity of these workers, instead, they are vilified as "Pigs" "Bastards" and the like. I can only attribute this to an intellectual laziness on the left and an unwillingness to distinguish between the men and women that are employed to enforce the law, and those interests that create the law.

[New Tet]

I would like to suggest that perhaps the reason why cops are so eager to create files on Leftists (besides the usual corruption of cops being bribed by business interests, which is not just a cop problem) is the attitude on this board that cops are pieces of shit rather than human beings. My father is a retired prison guard, and he saw his role as necessary to society. He was active in the prison guards' union to get decent wages and working conditions, in much the same way that any member of The Official Working Class tries to get decent working conditions and wages.

Most prison guards lack anything more than a high school education, and are employed as such because they have a real need to support their families. I don't believe I've seen anyone on the Left acknowledge the basic humanity of these workers, instead, they are vilified as "Pigs" "Bastards" and the like. I can only attribute this to an intellectual laziness on the left and an unwillingness to distinguish between the men and women that are employed to enforce the law, and those interests that create the law.

For me to say anything else but "thank you" would mar the brevity of your wit.

[Kléber]

During the Russian Revolution, despite strong working-class hostility to the Russian police, who were generally excluded from participation in the soviets, the Bolsheviks infiltrated police agencies and unions and their agents helped ensure the collapse and defection of civic police forces during the November seizure of power.

One of the disputes which led to the German Revolution of 1919 was the Social Democratic Party (SPD)'s attempted dismissal of the Berlin chief of police (whose name I forget), who was an Independent SPD (party which merged with KPD) supporter.

During the Spanish Civil War, the "Assault Guards" (paramilitary urban police department founded, initially, out of fear of the working class.. think a 1930's Spanish S.W.A.T.) mostly rallied to the Republic. They shared their training with the working class militants and, brimming with new recruits from the Socialist/Communist youth, the Assault Guards were among the hardest fighters to the republic. (Some Assault Guards of course were pro-fascist, just as some Civil Guards [generally conservative rural militia] ended up being pro-Republic.)

So my point is, many regular police have discarded their billy-clubs and sided with their fellow workers in revolutionary times. Even if a revolution isn't around the corner, and anti-police-brutality propaganda still has lots of currency with oppressed peoples, I would like to see mass police defections and desertions happen again, rather than prevent the possibility by clinging forever to infantile anarchist slogans like "FUCK THE PIGS." There have been many historical situations where it was politically profitable to instead ask "Fellow workers of the police force, for whose benefit are you fucking us?"

[bcbm]

I would like to suggest that perhaps the reason why cops are so eager to create files on Leftists (besides the usual corruption of cops being bribed by business interests, which is not just a cop problem) is the attitude on this board that cops are pieces of shit rather than human beings. yeah, cops create files on leftists and harass us and arrest us and murder us because we think they're pieces of shit, and certainly not the other way around. and, you know, it has nothing to do with their institutional role of defending the ruling class while leftists are fundamentally opposed to the ruling class.
I don't believe I've seen anyone on the Left acknowledge the basic humanity of these workers well you could read this thread for a start.

[New Tet]

yeah, cops create files on leftists and harass us and arrest us and murder us because we think they're pieces of shit, and certainly not the other way around. and, you know, it has nothing to do with their institutional role of defending the ruling class while leftists are fundamentally opposed to the ruling class. well you could read this thread for a start.

You're missing the point here. When an adversary feels threatened he reacts accordingly. In demonstrations where there is rapport between the cops and organizers violence rarely erupts. I say "rarely" keeping in mind the work of agent provocateurs sometimes planted in the hearts of the police force and radical organization to simultaneously provoke violence.

You think individual cops like doing so much paperwork and file keeping on all the eccentric malcontents capitalism churns out of its stinking bowels? Please.

Also, have you ever tried to put yourself inside the helmeted head of a cop geared up for riot duty? "Fuck, what am I doing here facing down this rabble of commie kids when I could easily be home with mama, sipping brews and watchin' the ball game on my big flat screen; yeah, kicking it with the old lady on the couch! I wonder what the score is...? Fuck, what am I doing heeeeeereeee!"

So, after all the training propaganda aimed at instilling fear and distrust of poor people and those who side with them, he gets mad as hell because his old lady is home, kicking it with her feet up in the air, watching the game and he's not; he's standing here, baton in hand, nervous, angry and easily provoked.

Suddenly, someone behind him cried "PIG!" and all hell broke loose.

[bcbm]

You're missing the point here. When an adversary feels threatened he reacts accordingly.

yes, the ruling class is our enemy. the police exist to defend the ruling class. therefore, the police are our enemy so long as they remain police.


You think individual cops like doing so much paperwork and file keeping on all the eccentric malcontents capitalism churns out of its stinking bowels? Please.

its interesting to me that the defenders of the police in this thread continually try to bring the discussion to some sort of personal level of likes and dislikes and emotions, while in reality this is a simply a discussion about the institutional role the police fill in society, and who that role protects and serves.


Also, have you ever tried to put yourself inside the helmeted head of a cop geared up for riot duty? "Fuck, what am I doing here facing down this rabble of commie kids when I could easily be home with mama, sipping brews and watchin' the ball game on my big flat screen; yeah, kicking it with the old lady on the couch! I wonder what the score is...? Fuck, what am I doing heeeeeereeee!"

in my experience, a lot of cops are very excited to bust heads and shoot off their new toys when they're on riot duty. this is why you see repeated cases of outrageous abuse by police officers against, say, students who were milling around and probably didn't even know why the police were there.


So, after all the training propaganda aimed at instilling fear and distrust of poor people and those who side with them, he gets mad as hell because his old lady is home, kicking it with her feet up in the air, watching the game and he's not; he's standing here, baton in hand, nervous, angry and easily provoked.

Suddenly, someone behind him cried "PIG!" and all hell broke loose.

so the police are trained to be afraid and full of distrust (and, according to pre-summit police leaks, fed all sorts of lies like that protesters have killed cops, etc), stripped of all identifying marks (ie, allowed to act with impunity), given huge budgets to cover lawsuits, given all sorts of new weapons to use on protesters/whoever and basically high on some macho bullshit but, in fact, it is the demonstrators calling a cop "pig" that makes them act violently? please.

[New Tet]

yes, the ruling class is our enemy. the police exist to defend the ruling class. therefore, the police are our enemy so long as they remain police.



its interesting to me that the defenders of the police in this thread continually try to bring the discussion to some sort of personal level of likes and dislikes and emotions, while in reality this is a simply a discussion about the institutional role the police fill in society, and who that role protects and serves.



in my experience, a lot of cops are very excited to bust heads and shoot off their new toys when they're on riot duty. this is why you see repeated cases of outrageous abuse by police officers against, say, students who were milling around and probably didn't even know why the police were there.



so the police are trained to be afraid and full of distrust (and, according to pre-summit police leaks, fed all sorts of lies like that protesters have killed cops, etc), stripped of all identifying marks (ie, allowed to act with impunity), given huge budgets to cover lawsuits, given all sorts of new weapons to use on protesters/whoever and basically high on some macho bullshit but, in fact, it is the demonstrators calling a cop "pig" that makes them act violently? please.

You've raised a straw man here, comrade. I have yet to read an argument posted here denying the anti-social role police play in the capitalist scheme of things. At least for me that is a given; they are the civil power the state uses to enforce its order, often with the most repugnant strong-arm tactics. No doubt in my mind.

However, the argument raised here by some, including myself, that has not been properly rebutted by you or anyone else in disagreement is that most cops are members of the working class who are in all essentials the same as you and me and that at some point in the course of our history they too must be compelled to side with a working class revolution.

How this is to happen is something I'd like to explore if we ever get past our dogmatic prejudices.

[bcbm]

You've raised a straw man here, comrade. I have yet to read an argument posted here denying the anti-social role police play in the capitalist scheme of things. At least for me that is a given; they are the civil power the state uses to enforce its order, often with the most repugnant strong-arm tactics. No doubt in my mind. i didn't say anyone denied it, i said it is interesting they keep trying to make it some sort of "personal" thing, shifting the discussion away from the institutional role.
However, the argument raised here by some, including myself, that has not been properly rebutted by you or anyone else in disagreement is that most cops are members of the working class who are in all essentials the same as you and me i don't think their "essentials" are the same because i've never worked a job where it was required of me to actively work against my class by infiltrating, sabotaging or otherwise destroying workers' organizations and killing or jailing their members. this is the fundamental job requirement of the police.
and that at some point in the course of our history they too must be compelled to side with a working class revolution. there are under one million police officers employed in the us. i would guess the working class out numbers them at least 100 to one. i think when things get more serious, the police forces will be infiltrated and disrupted and any cops who want to stop being police officers are more than welcome to do so, and perhaps a role can be found of them. i don't see much need to waste a lot of time on them.

[Aesop]

I thought the term Lumpen was used against individuals who do not produce value themselves but are not capitalists either, however they rely on the system in order to get paid?
Like the police, the army etc etc

[BogdanV]

Well now, there's a big difference between a institution and its employees. This is mostly valid for any type of organization.
Indeed, the police is a part of capitalism's defense system, but our enemy is not the individual, the human beign, but the institution. Just because you work for a crap institution doesn't make you crap.
Such prejudice can be seen towards people doing low-income jobs, like city cleaning (garbage, sewage, etc). Just because they work with garbage doesn't make them filthy, stinking people who never wash.
Now, if we realize this, why is it so hard to comprehend that if someone works for the police, he's not selling his soul to satan, he's not necessarily a retarded, blood-thirsty pshyco, anxious to kill and abuse as many people as possible ?
I mean this is not Mordor or some weird fantasy story. This is reality and there is a BIG difference between what the police and its members are in Theory and what they are in Practice.
Do you think they wake-up everyday, look in the mirror and say : "I must uphold and defend the system and its rulers. I will go now and try to jail and beat to death as many people as possible. Now what was my last kill-streak ?"

I know that the situation in some countries is really gruesome with regards to the police, but here I can tell you that there are villages with 500 people and one policeman/village! That guy is getting his ass kicked day-in day-out by anyone!
As for cities, things are not too different. They get their asses kicked again by guess who ? those who they are supposed to defend! That's right. There has been a case, for instance, when a cop did his job, trying to arrest a judge for killing several pedestrians while driving drunk.
What happened ? The guy got suspended from active duty and is now stuck in a never-ending cycle of jail-court.
Would you consider this guy a pig ?
It would be better if people weren't labelled en-masse "this" or "that". We have discrimination based on sex, ethnic group, colour, religion, why shouldn't we have it on jobs too ?

In the case of a revolution, such ways of thinking will lead to useless bloodshed. We'd probably go through a "Revolutionary Terror", where lots of people will die just for being considered as "pigs", or just "to make shure he's not a pig". This would only stirr people up and provide the bourgeois with free anti-propaganda.

[bcbm]

Now, if we realize this, why is it so hard to comprehend that if someone works for the police, he's not selling his soul to satan, he's not necessarily a retarded, blood-thirsty pshyco, anxious to kill and abuse as many people as possible ?

i don't think anyone has a problem comprehending this.

[toughlove]

yeah, cops create files on leftists and harass us and arrest us and murder us because we think they're pieces of shit, and certainly not the other way around. and, you know, it has nothing to do with their institutional role of defending the ruling class while leftists are fundamentally opposed to the ruling class.

Look,cops piss me off as much as anyone else, I'm just saying that perhaps we should attempt a different attitude than the "Off the Pigs" mindset which is clearly predominant on the militant Left. Rather than "Off the Pigs", I would "Off the Bourgeoisie" and undermine the ties between the ruling class and their pawns as suggested by Comrade Kleber.

[toughlove]

i don't think their "essentials" are the same because i've never worked a job where it was required of me to actively work against my class by infiltrating, sabotaging or otherwise destroying workers' organizations and killing or jailing their members. this is the fundamental job requirement of the police.

I think you're overlooking how most individuals view their work as police officers. They oppress their own class because they haven't been taught to think in terms of class, such an idea is taboo in American political discourse. As an institution, it is undeniable that their role is to oppress the working class, but the ruling class have managed to hide this fact from the working class (as I pointed out earlier, most police officers lack more than a high school education).

[bcbm]

Look,cops piss me off as much as anyone else, I'm just saying that perhaps we should attempt a different attitude than the "Off the Pigs" mindset which is clearly predominant on the militant Left. Rather than "Off the Pigs", I would "Off the Bourgeoisie" and undermine the ties between the ruling class and their pawns as suggested by Comrade Kleber.
I think you're overlooking how most individuals view their work as police officers. They oppress their own class because they haven't been taught to think in terms of class, such an idea is taboo in American political discourse. As an institution, it is undeniable that their role is to oppress the working class, but the ruling class have managed to hide this fact from the working class (as I pointed out earlier, most police officers lack more than a high school education). frankly, i'm not sure why a minority of class traitors are worth so much effort. i would never willingly be in an organization with a cop, so i don't really care.

[Kléber]

frankly, i'm not sure why a minority of class traitors are worth so much effort. i would never willingly be in an organization with a cop, so i don't really care.thanks for not reading my post, where i outlined how winning over the rank and file of the police, this well-armed and -trained segment of the proletariat, has been crucial to every mildly successful proletarian movement in history, without necessarily allowing ex-police officers into proletarian organizations.

[bcbm]

thanks for not reading my post, where i outlined how winning over the rank and file of the police, this well-armed and -trained segment of the proletariat, has been crucial to every mildly successful proletarian movement in history, without necessarily allowing ex-police officers into proletarian organizations.


there are under one million police officers employed in the us. i would guess the working class out numbers them at least 100 to one. i think when things get more serious, the police forces will be infiltrated and disrupted and any cops who want to stop being police officers are more than welcome to do so, and perhaps a role can be found of them. i don't see much need to waste a lot of time on them. like i said, i don't really care. if people want to try and win over cops, have fun. i'm not going to bother.

[Kléber]

like i said, i don't really care. if people want to try and win over cops, have fun. i'm not going to bother. behind your ultraleft, pseudo-third-worldist "fuck the pigs" sentiment is a middle-class fear of any contact with the working class.



when things get more serious, the police forces will be infiltrated and disrupted and any cops who want to stop being police officers are more than welcome to do so,oh, so you are too good to propagandize among rank-and-file police, but you still admit the need to do it, so you're going to refuse to, but just leave it to some other activist who's less important than you?

have you ever considered that leaving the "dirty work" to spontaneous, god-given armies of "angel activists" who appear from thin air during revolutions, is somewhat of an evasive and intellectually dishonest position?



and perhaps a role can be found of them. i don't see much need to waste a lot of time on them.why plan, or worry about, or study past examples of anything? everything will work out just fine, like it did in Spain! :rolleyes:

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think you're overlooking how most individuals view their work as police officers. They oppress their own class because they haven't been taught to think in terms of class, such an idea is taboo in American political discourse. As an institution, it is undeniable that their role is to oppress the working class, but the ruling class have managed to hide this fact from the working class (as I pointed out earlier, most police officers lack more than a high school education).

The same could be said of scabs! Scabs are even more "working class" than cops, but by doing that work, they are undermining solidarity and the working class struggle. The only way a scab can side with the working class is to stop being a scab.

Fuck all scabs, fuck all cops. They have to cross over to our side if they want support.

[bcbm]

behind your

oh here comes an avalanche of bullshit.


ultraleft

boring.


pseudo-third-worldistare you high?


"fuck the pigs" sentimentthe most inflammatory thing i've said in this discussion was "all cops are bastards," and i explained that was in reference to a common slogan on the left, making a slight joke on the thread's title. indeed, my only sentiment in this thread has been that the institutional role of the police is to uphold bourgeois rule and i don't see a lot of value in organizing with cops so long as they remain cops.


is a middle-class fear of any contact with the working class.so we've got three tired political slurs, a complete misrepresentation and some pseudo-psychological bullshit. glad you're trying to keep this conversation civil.


oh, so you are too good to propagandize among rank-and-file policeno, i just don't have any interest in fraternizing with them because i don't see it as very useful. i would rather spend my energy organizing members of my class whose job isn't to throw me in prison. given that there's a number of people in this thread who express interest in such activity, i'd imagine they might also exist elsewhere, so i don't see what the issue is with letting people who want to talk to cops talk to cops?


why plan, or worry about, or study past examples of anything?my study of past examples shows the police taking a reactionary role against the working class, actually.


everything will work out just fine, like it did in Spain! :rolleyes:what was the role the assault guard played in the may days?

[tellyontellyon]

Well, the Russian revolution was largely successful because the army and navy were won over in large measure.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Well, the Russian revolution was largely successful because the army and navy were won over in large measure.

The army and navy were conscripted. Hence having much revolutionary potential. The police, as a voluntary organisation, has none. It is a group of thugs employed to protect private property.

[New Tet]

The army and navy were conscripted. Hence having much revolutionary potential. The police, as a voluntary organisation, has none. It is a group of thugs employed to protect private property.

And they may be employed to protect social property if we know how to go about it.

[toughlove]

Fuck all scabs, fuck all cops. They have to cross over to our side if they want support.

Really? How well has that worked for us? Maybe its time for you to abandon some of your holier-than-thou righteousness and come down to earth where people have to work for a living. I don't condone the behavior of scabs, nor do I condone the counter-revolutionary actions of cops. But there's just a shitty attitude among some hardcore labor activists that alienates rather than wins over workers. Rather than steal tools from those workers that refuse to join the union, I think more of a personal effort should be made by laborers to win people over.

In general, the reason why (particularly in America) Leftist movements have suffered some pretty big defeats is because we on the Left adapt an attitude of "Fuck you" rather than trying to win people over with reasonable arguments .

[Jimmie Higgins]

Really? How well has that worked for us? Maybe its time for you to abandon some of your holier-than-thou righteousness and come down to earth where people have to work for a living. I don't condone the behavior of scabs, nor do I condone the counter-revolutionary actions of cops. But there's just a shitty attitude among some hardcore labor activists that alienates rather than wins over workers. Rather than steal tools from those workers that refuse to join the union, I think more of a personal effort should be made by laborers to win people over.

In general, the reason why (particularly in America) Leftist movements have suffered some pretty big defeats is because we on the Left adapt an attitude of "Fuck you" rather than trying to win people over with reasonable arguments .

Oakland police have shot and killed several unarmed people so far this year, out city is having a "budget crisis" but somehow while the schools are being defunded and the BART (subway) union has been forced to make concessions, politicians are talking about putting more cops on the street.

The working class (particularly black and Latino) residents of Oakland have plenty of people (the media, church leaders, politicians) telling them to have understanding for overstressed cops and to have patience when it comes to trying to "fix" corruption and thuggery in the police department.

I don't really go around saying "fuck the police" - it more important to be able to explain the role of the police force in modern US cities to workers and activists. But here, amongst comrades, if I were to boil down what I think our attitude towards the police should be, in essence, it is: "fuck the police".

Like I said, the best thing they can do for the struggle is quit their job just as the best thing a scab can do for his own interests in the long run is to quit and have solidarity with striking workers.

[New Tet]

[...]

Like I said, the best thing they can do for the struggle is quit their job just as the best thing a scab can do for his own interests in the long run is to quit and have solidarity with striking workers.

A cavalier attitude that will get you nothing, except praise and congratulations from people equally as self-deceived as you seem to be.

Socialism isn't a path to sainthood. It's a movement based on a scientific understanding of the Law of Value, the class struggle and the revolutionary nature of the working class. Cops are locked in a class struggle with their capitalist employers because their share of the value they create is, after all, wages. Just like you and me. We must exploit in our favor the alienation that cops must feel toward their bosses.

Our aim ought not to be their separation from the agency they serve but the subversion of their role within that institution and the subversion of the institution as a whole. That, at least, is what I had in mind when I began this thread.

To maintain an attitude of hostility towards cops, I think, strengthens the hand of the state and confirms their propaganda. It is a pointless provocation that encourages and justifies the repression, abuse and corruption police habitually mete out in the course of their other, more socially useful work.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

There is no chance of subverting the police force or its organisation. They will always be what they are today. Hostility towards cops is not something that weakens us, we should not trust them because at the end of the day they are our class enemies. As long as cops stay cops they are lumpen and are our enemies.

[New Tet]

There is no chance of subverting the police force or its organisation. They will always be what they are today. Hostility towards cops is not something that weakens us, we should not trust them because at the end of the day they are our class enemies. As long as cops stay cops they are lumpen and are our enemies.

Oh, dear! Such certainty belongs in the realm of religion and mysticism, not Marxism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Oh, dear! Such certainty belongs in the realm of religion and mysticism, not Marxism.

Coming from a family with several cops, yes I am pretty certain that despite their good qualities as individuals, cops, if they are doing their jobs are class enemies who despite being in a "union" still have no solidarity with striking workers they are sent to harass.

I am all for mass protests calling for cops to refuse their orders and not march on pickets and protesters - at best maybe it will cause confusion and disorientation in their ranks, at worst it's a good propaganda tool for our side. However, the way that this is going to happen is building up militancy and radicalism in our class, not by starting with appeals to the police.

It's the same with military officers: when things heat up, some of them will become class traitors and join our side or refuse orders, but unlike "grunts" officers in the military and police do not have class interests in line with working class interests.

If you are arguing against kids who go to mass protests and yell at cops and try and provoke battles with the cops, then yes I agree that this is not a very political or useful thing to do. However, if I am on a picket and the police attack or try and physically break the picket line, and workers want to fight back, I'm all in favor of yelling fuck the pigs and throwing bottles.

[New Tet]

Coming from a family with several cops, yes I am pretty certain that despite their good qualities as individuals, cops, if they are doing their jobs are class enemies who despite being in a "union" still have no solidarity with striking workers they are sent to harass.

So every time a cop investigates a burglary, a rape or a murder he acts as a "class enemy"?


I am all for mass protests calling for cops to refuse their orders and not march on pickets and protesters - at best maybe it will cause confusion and disorientation in their ranks, at worst it's a good propaganda tool for our side. However, the way that this is going to happen is building up militancy and radicalism in our class, not by starting with appeals to the police.But no one here, least of all me, is calling for an abandonment of common sense tactics to attract workers and enlist their support. I thought that was clear from the outset.



It's the same with military officers: when things heat up, some of them will become class traitors and join our side or refuse orders, but unlike "grunts" officers in the military and police do not have class interests in line with working class interests.I disagree. Many, if not most officers in the military are proletarian. This was my experience in the relatively brief time I served in the Navy. Likewise cops. Though it may not be apparent to them (or to you, it seems) their class interests are identical to the interests of every other worker, including those they repress for political reasons.


If you are arguing against kids who go to mass protests and yell at cops and try and provoke battles with the cops, then yes I agree that this is not a very political or useful thing to do. However, if I am on a picket and the police attack or try and physically break the picket line, and workers want to fight back, I'm all in favor of yelling fuck the pigs and throwing bottles.I didn't have those "kids" in mind, actually. But, yes, they too create more problems for our cause than is necessary and are the perfect tool in the hands of agent provocateurs planted among the cops and the demonstrators. Or had it not occurred to you that one of the ways in which the ruling class exploits our hostility towards cops is by inserting agents within the police and within radical movements for the purpose of creating "confusion and disorientation" on both sides through provocation and violence?

Truly, if we must brand the police with a dehumanizing label it ought be by calling them "dogs", not "pigs". After all, the real human pigs in our society are the capitalists, whereas the cops act, as in Orwell's allegory, like guard dogs of the status quo. I want to be able to show them, the cops, what they really look like when they act in clear betrayal of their true class interests.

[Jimmie Higgins]

So every time a cop investigates a burglary, a rape or a murder he acts as a "class enemy"? Yes, that position, that occupation, is to uphold the staus quo in capitalism and enforce capitalist rule. In a future workers society there may be people who investigate violent attacks, but it will not come in the form we see now as the modern police force. The police force, incidentially, was invented and formed during industrilaization in places like London and New York; it can not be separated from capitalism, it is designed as a tool of capitalism.

There are pleanty of crimes which are prefectly "legal" and are never invesigated by cops - from industrial accidents, to insuance companies profiting off deaths, to the most obvious: imperialis war. Cops don't investigate for robbery when capitalists rob workers by cutting wages, this is legal.

In capitalism, "law enforcement" can not be separated from the source and class interests behind the law.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Oh, dear! Such certainty belongs in the realm of religion and mysticism, not Marxism.

By saying the police are class enemies I am somehow being mystical when by their definition they can be nothing but upholders of private property. Sure they can defect from the police and cease to be lumpen, but whilst they hold that position they are in no way our allies.