East Germans miss "good life" of GDR - Honecker widow

[Emre]

BERLIN (Reuters) - East Germans are nostalgic for the "good life" they had under communism despite a propaganda campaign to discredit the German Democratic Republic (GDR), the widow of ex-GDR leader Erich Honecker says in a new video.


Margot Honecker, who has lived in Chile since 1992, is shown in the video celebrating the 60th anniversary of the founding of the now defunct East Germany with former exiles who sought asylum in the GDR after the 1973 coup by Augusto Pinochet.


The group sings a patriotic East German song before Honecker, standing in front of the hammer and sickle of the GDR flag, gives a short speech in German to her "comrades" sitting around a table.


"There is a huge amount of opposition in Germany right now to the GDR," she says. "There is no talk show, no film, no news programme that doesn't try to discredit the GDR."


"But it isn't working," she adds. "Fifty percent of east Germans say they have a worse life under capitalism, that they had a good life in the GDR. They can say what they want but people are thinking more and more about what they had in the German Democratic Republic."


Once reviled as the "purple witch" for her tinted hair and hardline stances, Margot Honecker served alongside her dictator husband as minister for education in the GDR and was hated and feared by many East Germans.


The video appears to have been recorded on Oct. 7, the 60th anniversary of the GDR's founding and roughly a month before Germany celebrates the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall.


Honecker, 82, mentions the results of last month's German election, including the gains of the Left party, a new far-left grouping that includes former members of the East German Socialist Unity Party (SED).
"There are leftist powers (in Germany). They are active and they are receiving more votes," she says.


Honecker warns that Chancellor Angela Merkel's new centre-right coalition of conservatives and Free Democrats (FDP) will hurt German workers, lead to rising unemployment and welfare cuts.


"People won't tolerate this. The signs are good. I am optimistic," she adds.
The Honeckers fled to Moscow to avoid criminal charges in 1991, the year after East and West Germany were unified, but were forced to leave when the Soviet Union fell.


Erich Honecker was charged in Germany with crimes committed during the Cold War, but was released in 1993 when he became sick with liver cancer. He lived briefly with his wife in Santiago before his death in 1994.
(Editing by Paul Casciato)
© Thomson Reuters 2009 All rights reserved

[Kwisatz Haderach]

I love how, right after quoting her statement about vicious anti-GDR propaganda, the article author goes right ahead and gives an example of said propaganda.

I do not agree with most of the policies carried out by Erich Honecker and supported by his wife. I would have opposed them if I lived in East Germany. But I salute her for her persistence in the face of extreme adversity after 1989. After the Eastern Bloc fell and the Soviet Union collapsed, after most of the "comrades" in the various Communist Parties across the region turned out to be filthy traitors, it was very difficult to hold on to any hope.

So, cheers to you, comrade Margot, for holding out against the tide.

[GatesofLenin]

Having been born in Germany and currently residing in Canada, I feel for the german people. I truthfully do not believe the propaganda of the new election being a good thing for Germany as a whole. Truth is, Germany has been losing their younger generation for a long time now because of high taxes and no social system to speak of. If you're going to tax the workers, at least protect the workers.
BTW, time for me to catch up on some GDR (DDR) history. :D

[Bilan]

Nostalgia usually doesn't reveal any truths worth clinging to. If anything, it just distorts them.

[Hyacinth]

Nostalgia usually doesn't reveal any truths worth clinging to. If anything, it just distorts them.
Perhaps, though I think the nostalgia is indicative of the growing dissatisfaction with capitalism, which in part manifests itself as a longing for the "good old days" of the DDR.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

By the way, here's a link to the article:

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_east-germans-miss-good-life-of-gdr-honecker-widow_1305023

[New Tet]

Honecker's remarks ought to surprise no one. After all, old and young, educated Russians have long been heard to lament the disappearance of many social guarantees since the collapse of the Soviet system.

For twenty years now, it's possible in Russia to enjoy one of the few liberties capitalism affords its victims: the freedom to complain loudly.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Emre asked me to post the following two articles, with links, since he is unable to do so himself. Notice that they are from The Wall Street Journal and the Daily Mail respectively. Heh. Even the Wall Street Journal cannot find a way around the hard facts that show a growing discontent with capitalism in the former Eastern Bloc.

Wall Street Journal: In Eastern Bloc, Wary View of Democracy (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125717785492623069.html)

People who lived behind the Iron Curtain are substantially happier with life 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, but express reservations about democracy, capitalism and their lot in the modern market economy, a new survey reports.

Fewer than a third of Ukrainians approve of the change to multiparty democracy, according to a wide-ranging poll by the Pew Research Center. In Russia, a majority mourns the Soviet Union, and nearly half say there ought to be a Russian empire. In every former Soviet bloc country polled, fewer people now support the shift to capitalism than in 1991. Seventy-two percent of Hungarians say their economic situation was better under the Communists.

The survey comes amid a financial crisis that is straining the adolescent market economies of the old Eastern bloc, and its findings reflect mixed -- and sometimes paradoxical -- attitudes in Russia and Eastern Europe.

Overall, majorities -- albeit some slender ones -- in every country but Ukraine approve of the shift to democracy. Ethnic hostilities, while persistent, have generally declined, and majorities or pluralities in all countries except Hungary and Ukraine welcome capitalism.

But significant worries remain about corruption, judicial fairness and the privileges of the rich and well-connected. Older people are far more wary of the new systems than their younger compatriots.

In one paradox, most nations are generally more favorably disposed toward immigrants than in 1991 -- but also support tighter immigration controls.

In spring 1991, amid the early, turbulent moments of the East's emergence from communism, Pew's predecessor, the Times Mirror Center, surveyed 12,569 people in nine countries (the U.K., Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Poland and Spain) and three Soviet republics (Lithuania, Russia and Ukraine). This fall, the Pew center returned to those places.

In some ways, the Eastern countries have converged with Western ones. Opinions on the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization are generally favorable everywhere except Hungary and the U.K., which are both sour on the EU.

In other areas, a gap remains. Roughly twice as many people in the East disapprove of ethnic and religious diversity as do their counterparts in France, Spain, Germany and the U.K. (Italy, where 84% have an unfavorable view of Gypsies, is a Western exception.)

In the former Eastern bloc, the financial crisis has amplified disparities: The Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland, which have weathered the turbulence relatively well, are most welcoming of democracy and capitalism. However, battered Hungary, Ukraine and Lithuania are still trying to claw their way back. Hungary is a notable outlier. Support for capitalism was 80% in 1991; it is now 46%. Recession has worsened discontent with the government.

"What people think of capitalism and democracy is very strongly linked to what people think of the government," says Márk Szabó of the Perspective Institute in Budapest. His firm's polls show more than half of Hungarians don't believe the government can handle the crisis. Hungarians' dismay with the market economy has been mounting for years, Mr. Szabó says, as it becomes clearer that promised social benefits can't be sustained.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Daily Mail: Oppressive and grey? No, growing up under communism was the happiest time of my life (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221064/Oppressive-grey-No-growing-communism-happiest-time-life.html)
By Zsuzsanna Clark
Last updated at 10:15 PM on 17th October 2009

When people ask me what it was like growing up behind the Iron Curtain in Hungary in the Seventies and Eighties, most expect to hear tales of secret police, bread queues and other nasty manifestations of life in a one-party state.

They are invariably disappointed when I explain that the reality was quite different, and communist Hungary, far from being hell on earth, was in fact, rather a fun place to live.

The communists provided everyone with guaranteed employment, good education and free healthcare. Violent crime was virtually non-existent.

But perhaps the best thing of all was the overriding sense of camaraderie, a spirit lacking in my adopted Britain and, indeed, whenever I go back to Hungary today. People trusted one another, and what we had we shared.

I was born into a working-class family in Esztergom, a town in the north of Hungary, in 1968. My mother, Julianna, came from the east of the country, the poorest part. Born in 1939, she had a harsh childhood.

She left school aged 11 and went straight to work in the fields. She remembers having to get up at 4am to walk five miles to buy a loaf of bread. As a child, she was so hungry she often waited next to the hen for it to lay an egg. She would then crack it open and swallow the yolk and the white raw.

It was discontent with these conditions of the early years of communism that led to the Hungarian uprising in 1956.

The shock waves brought home to the communist leadership that they could consolidate their position only by making our lives more tolerable. Stalinism was out and 'goulash communism' - a unique brand of liberal communism - was in.

Janos Kadar, the country's new leader, transformed Hungary into the 'happiest barracks' in Eastern Europe. We probably had more freedoms than in any other communist country.

One of the best things was the way leisure and holiday opportunities were opened up to all. Before the Second World War, holidays were reserved for the upper and middle classes. In the immediate post-war years too, most Hungarians were working so hard rebuilding the country that holidays were out of the question.

In the Sixties though, as in many other aspects of life, things changed for the better. By the end of the decade, almost everyone could afford to go away, thanks to the network of subsidised trade-union, company and co-operative holiday centres.

My parents worked in Dorog, a nearby town, for Hungaroton, a state-owned record company, so we stayed at the factory's holiday camp at Lake Balaton, 'The Hungarian Sea'.

The camp was similar to the sort of holiday camps in vogue in Britain at the same time, the only difference being that guests had to make their own entertainment in the evenings - there were no Butlins-style Redcoats.

Some of my earliest memories of living at home are of the animals my parents kept on their smallholding. Rearing animals was something most people did, as well as growing vegetables. Outside Budapest and the big towns, we were a nation of Tom and Barbara Goods.

My parents had about 50 chickens, pigs, rabbits, ducks, pigeons and geese. We kept the animals not just to feed our family but also to sell meat to our friends. We used the goose feathers to make pillows and duvets.

The government understood the value of education and culture. Before the advent of communism, opportunities for the children of the peasantry and urban working class, such as me, to rise up the educational ladder were limited. All that changed after the war.

The school system in Hungary was similar to that which existed in Britain at the time. Secondary education was divided into grammar schools, specialised secondary schools, and vocational schools. The main differences were that we stayed in our elementary school until the age of 14, not 11.

There were also evening schools, for children and adults. My parents, who had both left school young, took classes in mathematics, history and Hungarian literature and grammar.

I loved my schooldays, and in particular my membership of the Pioneers - a movement common to all communist countries.

Many in the West believed it was a crude attempt to indoctrinate the young with communist ideology, but being a Pioneer taught us valuable life skills such as building friendships and the importance of working for the benefit of the community. 'Together for each other' was our slogan, and that was how we were encouraged to think.

As a Pioneer, if you performed well in your studies, communal work and school competitions, you were rewarded with a trip to a summer camp. I went every year because I took part in almost all the school activities: competitions, gymnastics, athletics, choir, shooting, literature and library work.

On our last night at Pioneer camp we sang songs around the bonfire, such as the Pioneer anthem: 'Mint a mokus fenn a fan, az uttoro oly vidam' ('We are as happy as a squirrel on a tree'), and other traditional songs. Our feelings were always mixed: sad at the prospect of leaving, but happy at the thought of seeing our families again.

Today, even those who do not consider themselves communists look back at their days in the Pioneers with great affection.

Hungarian schools did not follow the so-called 'progressive' ideas on education prevalent in the West at the time. Academic standards were extremely high and discipline was strict.

My favourite teacher taught us that without mastery of Hungarian grammar we would lack confidence to articulate our thoughts and feelings. We could make only one mistake if we wanted to attain the highest grade.

Unlike Britain, there were 'viva voce' exams in Hungary in every subject. In literature, for example, set texts had to be memorised and recited and then the student would have to answer questions put to them orally by the teacher.

Whenever we had a national celebration, I was among those asked to recite a poem or verse in front of the whole school. Culture was regarded as extremely important by the government. The communists did not want to restrict the finer things of life to the upper and middle classes - the very best of music, literature and dance were for all to enjoy.

This meant lavish subsidies were given to institutions including orchestras, opera houses, theatres and cinemas. Ticket prices were subsidised by the State, making visits to the opera and theatre affordable.

'Cultural houses' were opened in every town and village, so provincial, working-class people such as my parents could have easy access to the performing arts, and to the best performers.

Programming on Hungarian television reflected the regime's priority to bring culture to the masses, with no dumbing down.

When I was a teenager, Saturday night primetime viewing typically meant a Jules Verne adventure, a poetry recital, a variety show, a live theatre performance, or an easy Bud Spencer film.

Much of Hungarian television was home-produced, but quality programmes were imported, not just from other Eastern Bloc countries but from the West, too.

Hungarians in the early Seventies followed the trials and tribulations of Soames Forsyte in The Forsyte Saga just as avidly as British viewers had done a few years earlier. The Onedin Line was another popular BBC series I enjoyed watching, along with David Attenborough documentaries.

However, the government was alive to the danger of us turning into a nation of four-eyed couch potatoes.

Every Monday was 'family night', when State television was taken off the air to encourage families to do other things together. Others called it 'family planning night', and I am sure the figures showing the proportion of children conceived on Monday nights under communism would make interesting reading.

Although we lived well under 'goulash communism' and there was always enough food for us to eat, we were not bombarded with advertising for products we didn't need.

Throughout my youth, I wore hand-me-down clothes, as most young people did. My school bag was from the factory where my parents worked. What a difference to today's Hungary, where children are bullied, as they are in Britain, for wearing the 'wrong' brand of trainers.

Like most people in the communist era, my father was not money-obsessed.

As a mechanic he made a point of charging people fairly. He once saw a broken-down car with an open bonnet - a sight that always lifted his heart. It belonged to a West German tourist.

My father fixed the car but refused payment - even a bottle of beer. For him it was unnatural that anyone would think of accepting money for helping someone in distress.

When communism in Hungary ended in 1989, I was not only surprised, but saddened, as were many others. Yes, there were people marching against the government, but the majority of ordinary people - me and my family included - did not take part in the protests.

Our voice - the voice of those whose lives were improved by communism - is seldom heard when it comes to discussions of what life was like behind the Iron Curtain.

Instead, the accounts we hear in the West are nearly always from the perspectives of wealthy emigrés or anti-communist dissidents with an axe to grind.

Communism in Hungary had its downside. While trips to other socialist countries were unrestricted, travel to the West was problematic and allowed only every second year. Few Hungarians (myself included) enjoyed the compulsory Russian lessons.

There were petty restrictions and needless layers of bureaucracy and freedom to criticise the government was limited. Yet despite this, I believe that, taken as a whole, the positives outweighed the negatives.

Twenty years on, most of these positive achievements have been destroyed.

People no longer have job security. Poverty and crime is on the increase. Working-class people can no longer afford to go to the opera or theatre. As in Britain, TV has dumbed down to a worrying degree - ironically, we never had Big Brother under communism, but we have it today.

Most sadly of all, the spirit of camaraderie that we once enjoyed has all but disappeared. In the past two decades we may have gained shopping malls, multi-party ' democracy', mobile phones and the internet. But we have lost a whole lot more.

• Goulash And Solidarity, by Zsuzsanna Clark, is awaiting publication.

[Saorsa]

Very interesting article about Hungary, thanks for posting.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

It seems this Zsuzsanna Clark is going to publish a book about it: "Goulash And Solidarity". I intend to buy it when it comes out. She sounds like she has a lot of interesting things to say.

[Rjevan]

Thanks for posting those great articles, Emre and Kwisatz!
Here is also an interesting one, I posted it already sometimes before but it's still interesting:
Majority of Eastern Germans feel life better under Communism (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122,00.html)

There are even polls which suggest that 62% of East Germans want the DDR back, but now the 20th anniversary of the Berlin Wall such sources are, of course not mentioned in the media, instead we all constantly hear how happy and lucky we are to live in a reunited capitalist Germany now.

[RotStern]

No No No Your all wrong Communism never works!

[Bright Banana Beard]

Our lesson is that we tried to do our best, and we failed. However, failure is not an option.

[gorillafuck]

Thanks for posting those great articles, Emre and Kwisatz!
Here is also an interesting one, I posted it already sometimes before but it's still interesting:
Majority of Eastern Germans feel life better under Communism (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122,00.html)

There are even polls which suggest that 62% of East Germans want the DDR back, but now the 20th anniversary of the Berlin Wall such sources are, of course not mentioned in the media, instead we all constantly hear how happy and lucky we are to live in a reunited capitalist Germany now.
Defending the DDR doesn't necessarily mean wanting the DDR back, keep in mind (though that article is definitely interesting)

[pranabjyoti]

Nostalgia usually doesn't reveal any truths worth clinging to. If anything, it just distorts them.
In this case here, it is revealing some "unhyped" (by imperialist media) truth of that time. Which most of the world don't know about and it is, most importantly against the stream.

[pranabjyoti]

Our lesson is that we tried to do our best, and we failed. However, failure is not an option.
NO, we haven't failed totally. The world had changed a lot and I think the MAIN REASON IS OUR EFFORT. Maybe, we haven't yet achieved what we want to achieve, but that doesn't mean that we have FAILED TOTALLY.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Related story: Conservative Americans miss "good life" in the 1950s. As people age, they tend to view the past with nostalgia. This may supply evidence to the assertion that the GDR wasn't as bad as Western propaganda proclaims, but that's about it.

[pranabjyoti]

Related story: Conservative Americans miss "good life" in the 1950s. As people age, they tend to view the past with nostalgia. This may supply evidence to the assertion that the GDR wasn't as bad as Western propaganda proclaims, but that's about it.
Well, at least it is a very proof of the matter that are the party officials and bureaucrats, even lot of common "working class" people was also happy in those "state capitalist", "tyrant", "dictatorship" "regime". I am curious to know, what % of people, of UK and USA, those who are nostalgic about the 50's, belong to the working class. I can guess that not a big %. But, here in those cases, those who are nostalgic, belongs to the working class. THAT MAY BE NOT A VERY BIG MATTER OF CONCERN TO OTHERS, BUT FOR ME AT LEAST.

[Salabra]

Related story: Conservative Americans miss "good life" in the 1950s. As people age, they tend to view the past with nostalgia. This may supply evidence to the assertion that the GDR wasn't as bad as Western propaganda proclaims, but that's about it.

But we aren't talking about capitalist Americans being nostalgic for the capitalist USA of 50 years ago; we are talking people being nostalgic about a completely different method of organizing the socio-economic life of the society.

[FSL]

Related story: Conservative Americans miss "good life" in the 1950s. As people age, they tend to view the past with nostalgia. This may supply evidence to the assertion that the GDR wasn't as bad as Western propaganda proclaims, but that's about it.



Do they miss keyensianism or just lack of rap music? Doesn't that make a difference?

People from ex-socialist countries miss full employment. That isn't an idolization of the past, it's an economic fact.

[NecroCommie]

I understand if someone wishes to stay critical of these testimonies, but dismissing them as nostalgia would be arrogant to the extreme.
- Hey! I think this and this!
- Well, you are just nostalgic so your oppinion does not count!
- But...
- NO! You don't agree with me so you must be wrong!

There must be some other form of critizism than questioning the validity of other oppinions. Try finding if they are actually a minority or other such things, but dismissing the validity of others is pretty nasty.

[mosfeld]

Highly recommended article.


Democracy, East Germany and the Berlin Wall

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NWb6dZkx3Zo/RozssroFDBI/AAAAAAAAAEE/hTkynA-Rhgk/s320/587px-Coat_of_arms_of_East_Germany.png

The GDR was more democratic, in the original and substantive sense of the word, than eastern Germany was before 1949 and than the former East Germany has become since the Berlin Wall was opened in 1989. It was also more democratic than its neighbor, West Germany. While it played a role in the GDR’s eventual demise, the Berlin Wall was at the time a necessary defensive measure to protect a substantively democratic society from being undermined by a hostile neighbor bent on annexing it.

While East Germany (the German Democratic Republic, or GDR) wasn’t a ‘workers’ paradise’, it was in many respects a highly attractive model that was responsive to the basic needs of the mass of people and therefore was democratic in the substantive and original sense of the word. It offered generous pensions, guaranteed employment, equality of the sexes and substantial wage equality, free healthcare and education, and a growing array of other free and virtually free goods and services. It was poorer than its West German neighbor, the Federal Republic of Germany, or FRG, but it started at a lower level of economic development and was forced to bear the burden of indemnifying the Soviet Union for the massive losses Germany inflicted upon the USSR in World War II.

[...]

Read the rest here (http://mltoday.com/en/democracy-east-germany-and-the-berlin-wall-702.html).

[Kwisatz Haderach]

I've just discovered (and ordered) this book:

The Triumph of Evil: The Reality of the USA's Cold War Victory (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/8883980026/mffindbook-21)

This promises to be an interesting read.

[bailey_187]

I've just discovered (and ordered) this book:

The Triumph of Evil: The Reality of the USA's Cold War Victory (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/8883980026/mffindbook-21)

This promises to be an interesting read.

oh snap

i ordered this book today too (after reading the article by Gowans)

It looks promising.

[Panda Tse Tung]

Nostalgia usually doesn't reveal any truths worth clinging to. If anything, it just distorts them.
Then why arent so many people nostalgic to Nazi-Germany? (at least amongst the elderly)

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I have a feeling that this is more to do with discontent with the current system, in particular the continuing wealth gap between the east and west of Germany, than any true affection for Honecker and the Stasi. What a horrible little puppet regime. You have to be deranged to view that as the zenith of human social and organisational achievement.

[bailey_187]

I have a feeling that this is more to do with discontent with the current system, in particular the continuing wealth gap between the east and west of Germany, than any true affection for Honecker and the Stasi. What a horrible little puppet regime. You have to be deranged to view that as the zenith of human social and organisational achievement.

The people of the former British Empire live in poverty, yet how many long for Colonial rule to return? Someone already said this in the thread, you must have missed it.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I possibly did miss it. I do understand the reasons for nostalgia - nostalgia for the security of the time. However, I think it would be irresponsible to brand this as nostalgia for the entire period and for Honecker and his regime. I simply do not judge these self-proclaimed Communists (the capitalised 'C' type) to be true Socialists.

[FSL]

I have a feeling that this is more to do with discontent with the current system, in particular the continuing wealth gap between the east and west of Germany, than any true affection for Honecker and the Stasi. What a horrible little puppet regime. You have to be deranged to view that as the zenith of human social and organisational achievement.


Stop with the strawmans! Stop!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The fact that it is out of the question that the DDR was in the real of the pinnacle of human achievement shows something.

If you have a defence to make, make it, instead of nit picking what was a completely legitimate point.

[Wanted Man]

The fact that it is out of the question that the DDR was in the real of the pinnacle of human achievement shows something.

If you have a defence to make, make it, instead of nit picking what was a completely legitimate point.

It's a legitimate point, but nobody can defend himself against it, because nobody argued that the DDR was the pinnacle of human achievement. That's why he bolded that part and said that it's a strawman. It's like someone asking you, "Oh, so you think capitalism in all of Germany is the best thing since sliced bread? You have to be deranged to think so!" People will assume that you said it to attack them, because why else would you bring it up when nobody has argued that it was the pinnacle of human achievement?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Fair does. I guess I didn't need to make the strawman argument, as I don't think that there are many people who revere the DDR.
I Just wanted to make the point that it probably was not the nicest environment to live in. In many respects I would have preferred to live in 70s and 80s USSR than the DDR of the same period, simply because of the role the Stasi played in East German society.

[Tatarin]

Related story: Conservative Americans miss "good life" in the 1950s. As people age, they tend to view the past with nostalgia. This may supply evidence to the assertion that the GDR wasn't as bad as Western propaganda proclaims, but that's about it.

I think this has an interesting connection. If I'm not wrong, the 1950's USA also had a lot of Delano's New Economic Policy left throughout the 1950's and to some extent the 1960s before the Conservative decades of the 70s and 80s? Perhaps that was their nostalgia, just as the job security of the DDR?

[Agnapostate]

As known, I do have my libertarian sentiments and contend that socialism wasn't legitimately present in the GDR or anywhere else in the Soviet Union. That said, it does become amusing when the apologists of "democracy" angrily declare that those who favor the restoration of conditions in East Germany should not be permitted to enact policies that would result in such consequences, a reaction also seen when it's pointed out to them that the majority of citizens in the Soviet Union opposed its dissolution. :laugh:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The situation in the USSR was unique by the time the referendum on dissolution was held, mind.

Most Soviet citizens were educated enough to realise that the dissolution of the Union was a greater evil for their personal interests in the short-medium terms. I don't imagine many people at the time, if asked, would have given their approval to the system, especially the chaos of the Chernenko/Andropov/Gorbachev era.

[Bilan]

Then why arent so many people nostalgic to Nazi-Germany? (at least amongst the elderly)

Is that a serious question?

[Agnapostate]

The situation in the USSR was unique by the time the referendum on dissolution was held, mind.

Most Soviet citizens were educated enough to realise that the dissolution of the Union was a greater evil for their personal interests in the short-medium terms. I don't imagine many people at the time, if asked, would have given their approval to the system, especially the chaos of the Chernenko/Andropov/Gorbachev era.

It wasn't just a matter of the referendum, although I do often refer to it. But as noted by Stephen White in After Gorbachev:


It did not necessarily follow, however, that there was overwhelming support for capitalism or the institutions of liberal democracy. Asked what they would do if the October revolution took place a second time, 43 per cent told pollsters they would actively or passively support the Bolsheviks, and only 6 per cent would oppose them. The largest group (39 per cent) thought the October revolution 'reflected the wishes of the peoples of the Russian empire', and a majority were prepared to accept the necessity of the use of force at this time and the formation of the Cheka or security police with their wide-ranging powers. Asked in a national poll in 1991 for their views about socialism, the largest group (38 percent) thought it had been shown to be deficient in principle; but when asked what kind of a society should be constructed in the Russian Federation, 29 per cent said a socialist one, 56 per cent thought it should be a Swedish-stlye combination of the best features of capitalism and socialism, and only 3 per cent opted for undisguised capitalism. In another national poll in late 1990, 58.6 per cent thought that the basic principles of socialism were correct but that they had not been properly implemented, 56.3 per cent connected their hopes for the future of that country with socialism, and only 7 per cent with capitalism.There was a clear appeal to populist sentiments in favor of socialism that existed since the time of the Russian empire to the dissolution of the Soviet Union and likely remains high in Russia and the Central Asian republics in particular.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Oh I completely agree with that. But you see there, many people didn't think it had been properly implemented. We must also remember that the poll was taken a generation after Stalin - what he did was absolutely unacceptable for any movement.

[pranabjyoti]

Oh I completely agree with that. But you see there, many people didn't think it had been properly implemented. We must also remember that the poll was taken a generation after Stalin - what he did was absolutely unacceptable for any movement.
That's why workers there are marching with his picture and he had so much acceptance worldwide.

[FSL]

Is that a serious question?


If nostalgia and that alone is thought to be the reason people miss socialism, then it's a valid question.

[bailey_187]

I possibly did miss it. I do understand the reasons for nostalgia - nostalgia for the security of the time. However, I think it would be irresponsible to brand this as nostalgia for the entire period and for Honecker and his regime. I simply do not judge these self-proclaimed Communists (the capitalised 'C' type) to be true Socialists.

Ok.

[bailey_187]

Oh I see. It isn't that it is 'inane drivel' by fact then, you just don't like what I am saying.

No, its just that what you are saying "DDR not reeaaal Socialism" "Stalin was evil" gets said so many times on here in learning by new posters.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

No, its just that what you are saying "DDR not reeaaal Socialism" "Stalin was evil" gets said so many times on here in learning by new posters.

So what you are saying is, anybody with such an opinion, in your mind, is wrong, naive, foolish, uneducated on the subject etc.?

For a socialist, that is remarkably close minded and judgemental.

The DDR was not socialist, Stalin was not a good socialist. I have reasons, I have evidence, but as long as you are going to tar any new poster who holds these views with the same 'idiot' brush, then I won't really bother to enter into a debate.

[bailey_187]

So what you are saying is, anybody with such an opinion, in your mind, is wrong, naive, foolish, uneducated on the subject etc.?

For a socialist, that is remarkably close minded and judgemental.

The DDR was not socialist, Stalin was not a good socialist. I have reasons, I have evidence, but as long as you are going to tar any new poster who holds these views with the same 'idiot' brush, then I won't really bother to enter into a debate.

Wrong? yes. Foolish? yes. Uneducated? no.

Since when was being a Socialist about being "open minded"?

I didn't call you an idiot.

You state that about Stalin, many members think you are wrong. Post in a thread about Stalin if you want to debate Stalin.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I was merely referencing Stalin in my original post, I was not going OT. It was when I was quoted that the issue of Stalin seemed to take hold.

I am not wrong. You have your opinion, I have mine. I don't really feel the need to prove my intellect to you, so I am pretty confident that my views stand up to scrutiny just the same as you believe yours would.

Capitalism is about exploitation and self-enrichment in terms of wealth. In rejecting this, I saw Socialism as the opposite - seeking an equal society and an end to poverty, war, crime and oppression.

Didn't think it was just about seizing powers for a majority of societ.

[bailey_187]

I am not wrong. You have your opinion, I have mine. I don't really feel the need to prove my intellect to you, so I am pretty confident that my views stand up to scrutiny just the same as you believe yours would.


There is such a thing as objective truth.



Capitalism is about exploitation and self-enrichment in terms of wealth. In rejecting this, I saw Socialism as the opposite - seeking an equal society and an end to poverty, war, crime and oppression.

Didn't think it was just about seizing powers for a majority of societ.

East Germany was fairly equal, within in the confines of "bourgeois right", ended poverty, never invaded another country, had less crime than capitalist countries and did much to combat oppression of women by men etc.

[pranabjyoti]

Capitalism is about exploitation and self-enrichment in terms of wealth. In rejecting this, I saw Socialism as the opposite - seeking an equal society and an end to poverty, war, crime and oppression.
Didn't think it was just about seizing powers for a majority of societ.
For the first stage of socialism, you CAN NOT avoid "dictatorship of proletariat". The other have to be abolished and I am afraid that isn't possible without "war, oppression".

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Bailey, there is a thing as objective truth. However, we both know that the issue of Stalin is contentious, not just as a left vs right issue but within the left movement. To say that on such a hotly disputed subject your minority viewpoint is the only correct one is pretty misplaced self-assurance.
I would say that yes, the DDR did have its accomplishments. However, its creation did not come about through popular revolution, there was little internal democracy and the activities of the Stasi point to a paranoid, defensive political elite keeping a casting eye on the population.

Pranabjyoti, I would say that this is where our opinions will diverge. I would not murder 30-40 million of my fellow countrymen to allow the remaining 20-30 million to build a good 'socialist' society.

[NecroCommie]

there was little internal democracy and the...
Actually, internal democracy was pretty much the only democracy in DDR. People actually had a say about their jobs their products and their time, but anything that could be interpeted as international was dictated if not from the government, then from the USSR.

[pierrotlefou]

Since when was being a Socialist about being "open minded"?



Since always I thought. Ignorance is what kills a revolution.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

houldn't be strange to us to hear about nostalgia to the GDR
Free healthcare, free high-quality education, housing, water,...
A Socialist People's government that really cared about the People is what they had.
Unfortunately the Western capitalists, aided by their ally the traitor Gorbachev, succeeded in poisoning the minds of the young and the students, leading to the detstruction of the People's power in Germany and the Anschluss of the GDR into the imperialist West.

The fascists are celebrating their 20-year old victory, but we will strike back! The People will rise up again and destroy capitalist exploitation for once and for all!
The imperialists call the occupation of the GDR by the Bundesrepublik a "reunification" (Wiedervereinigung), but what exactly is the big difference between that and the Anschluss by Hitler and 1938? Is there really that much difference? No!
The East of Germany has been occupied, colonised, assimilated, conquered by the West!
The flag, name, political system and economical exploitation of the West have simply been expanded to the East? So, where is that "unification"?
Where is the voice of the Easterner? Where is the respect for the Eastern system and culture?
There has never been a unification, Comrades! Only occupation!

[Panda Tse Tung]

Is that a serious question?
If you we're serious. Then yes.
Though it was more of a comment in questionary-form.

[pranabjyoti]

Pranabjyoti, I would say that this is where our opinions will diverge. I would not murder 30-40 million of my fellow countrymen to allow the remaining 20-30 million to build a good 'socialist' society.
30-40 million murder. Why are you vomiting the old imperialist propaganda. The root cause of most deaths of the time was imperialist intervention and counter reactionary sabotage.

[Bilan]

I understand if someone wishes to stay critical of these testimonies, but dismissing them as nostalgia would be arrogant to the extreme.
- Hey! I think this and this!
- Well, you are just nostalgic so your oppinion does not count!
- But...
- NO! You don't agree with me so you must be wrong!

There must be some other form of critizism than questioning the validity of other oppinions. Try finding if they are actually a minority or other such things, but dismissing the validity of others is pretty nasty.

It's not dismissing them, but being cautious of them. The GDR was far from paradise. Indeed, all of these socialist experiments were. The point is not to try and replicate them again, not to miss them, but to learn from them and not make the same mistakes.

[Emre]

The gains of the working class in the German Democratic Republic and other socialist countries and the situation in which the workers and people face now, after the overthrow in these countries, confirms the superiority of socialism over capitalism.

The newspaper “Working Russia”, the organ of the Communist Workers Party of Russia - Revolutionary Party of Communists [RKRP-RPC] - addressed the General Secretary of the CC of KKE Aleka Papariga the following question: “over the last days on the occasion of the 20th anniversary since the fall of Berlin Wall we are witnessing an intensification of the anticommunist hysteria, of the attack on Communist Parties and communist ideals in Russia as well as in other European countries. What is your comment on this development?” Aleka Papariga gave the following answer:

“These days international imperialism continues and intensifies its campaign in order to distort the big contribution of the socialism we used to know, focusing on Berlin and the anticommunist events on the fall of the Wall. At the same time the governments and the bourgeois parties as a whole make persistent and coordinated efforts to present capitalism as an eternal system, as a system that ensures freedom and democracy and meets the people’s needs as well.

In this framework we are witnessing the intensification of the anticommunist hysteria in Russia which has been the birthplace of the first victorious socialist revolution, the October revolution.

The anticommunist attack is launched by those who 20 years ago characterised the counterrevolution as “world-historic event”, by those who declared the coming of a new era of peace, security and prosperity. The experience accumulated over this period has reversed these proclamations, and proved that their content was fake. Let us remember what international opportunism, which still supports that capitalism can be humanised, used to say in that period.

Over these 20 years many walls have been erected in front of the peoples. The intensification of exploitation, the unjust wars, the capitalist economic crisis, the restriction of basic rights, unemployment, poverty, the spread of drugs and criminality, the waves of immigration, the death of millions of people of thirst and diseases are the results of the capitalist steamroller whose god is profit and not the human needs. It is a huge lie to argue that the fall of Berlin Wall, the counterrevolution united the people of Europe and brought freedom. The only freedom it brought was that of the EU and NATO imperialists and all the capitalist organisations to attack against the workers’ and peoples’ interests from better positions, to pass terror laws and shield the repression forces.

It was confirmed that socialism of the 2Oth century, despite the shortcomings and the mistakes that were made, was a superior social economic system; it has proved its superiority to capitalism. Workers’ rights, that in capitalist conditions are just a pipe dream, were regarded as given in socialism. I refer to permanent and stable work for all, to the establishment of 8-hour and 7-hour working day for all, to free education and health-care for all, to free time, to decent life for the elderly, to the acquisition of a high cultural level, to the huge achievements made in a very short period of time in the field of science and art, to the conquest of space. I refer to the security that young people felt for their future.

Several years have passed since the end of the Second World War until 1961, the year when the Wall was erected by the workers’ state power and thousands of workers. This time period has its own explanation and cause. The boarders between East and West Berlin (which was in the territory of People’s Germany and few people are actually aware of this fact) closed when the tanks of NATO entered the territory of people’s Germany and headed towards the centre of Berlin. It was in that period that the defence minister of West Germany Franz Josef Straus declared that people should be prepared for a civil war in Germany. It was in that period that subversion and sabotages in the economy of People’s Germany have intensified. It was imperialism that imposed the erection of the Wall, the conflict between capitalism and socialism.

The socialism of the 20th century, which was constructed in the USSR and the other countries of Eastern Europe, had not been a society without shortcomings while erroneous strategic choices especially in the 1950s and 1960s brought about destructive consequences for the workers’ state power.

In its 18th Congress KKE studied these mistakes and leveled criticism with the aim to contribute to the ideological shielding of the communist movement and improve its struggle nowadays. At the same time it does not submit to the bourgeoisie that demands KKE to resign from defending the historical achievements of socialism, it does not “throw the baby out with the bathwater” as opportunists do.

We call upon the working class to search for the truth about socialism and reject the anti-communist propaganda that identifies socialism with fascism and aims to prevent the people from drawing the true conclusions. We call the working class to struggle along with the communists and the popular strata in towns and villages; to struggle for this that makes the capitalists tremble that makes put the communists on trials and prohibit their action in several countries, to pave the way for the people’s economy and power. Socialism is necessary and relevant.”

from solidnet.org

[Emre]

On the destruction of the Berlin Wall

Interview given by Egon Krenz, former president of the German Democratic Republic (East Germany), to Zeitung vum Lëtzebuerger Vollek, daily paper of the Communist Party of Luxembourg.
(Translated from German.)




Was the opening of the border spontaneous?
No, the events leading up to the opening of the borders are ignored today. On the 1st of November 1989 I met Gorbachev in Moscow. We had talks lasting four hours, during which I asked him what place the GDR would have in the “European House” he was propagating, and whether the Soviet Union would continue to honour its fraternal commitment in relation to the GDR. He told me that German unity was not on the agenda. The USSR and the GDR were allies for ever. He even warned me about what he termed “Helmut Kohl’s politics, who had wagered everything on the horse of nationalism.” I still trusted Gorbachev. I didn’t know at that time that his emissaries had long since made contact with Bonn to establish what price Bonn was prepared to pay for German unity.

And how did it develop?
Following my meeting with Gorbachev I received intelligence reports from Moscow, Warsaw, and Berlin. Therein was contained information suggesting that certain political forces were planning to storm the border at the Brandenburg Gate on the 4th of November 1989. A concerted breach of the border at the Brandenburg Gate—regardless of who organised it—could have resulted in a war at that point. It was for this reason that I, as chairman of the Defence Council of the GDR, issued an order on the 3rd of November: “The use of weapons in connection with a possible demonstration is forbidden, without exception.” This order was in place also on the 9th of November.

Does this explain why everything passed off peacefully on the 9th of November?
Without doubt. On the morning of the 10th things got pretty heated. The Soviet ambassador pointed out to me that the GDR did not have the authority to open the border, as Berlin still remained under the control of the Four Powers (i.e. the USSR, the United States, Great Britain, and France). It was only in the late afternoon that the news came that Gorbachev was in favour of the border being opened. At the same time he communicated a verbal message to the West German chancellor, Helmut Kohl, warning him against “destabilising the GDR.” A day later the Soviet foreign minister, Shevardnadze, made telephone contact with his West German counterpart, Genscher, to express his concern about the content of a speech given by Kohl on the 10th of November at the Schöneberg town hall in West Berlin.

What made the situation so dangerous?
A wrong or a hasty decision on the 9th of November or in its aftermath could have led to civil war. There was even the danger that the superpowers might have been drawn into military conflict. In the final analysis, they insisted on the “Four-Power status of Berlin.” Gorbachev had warned Kohl on the 10th of “a chaotic situation with unforeseeable consequences.”

It has been claimed that the GDR had intended to use violence but was prevented by Gorbachev. The Frankfurter Allgemeine stated: “Despite the demands of the GDR security forces, the Soviet military were ordered by Moscow to remain in their barracks.”
That is complete nonsense. That champagne rather than blood flowed on the 9th of November is thanks to the GDR security and border troops. Had the GDR leadership really wanted to use violence it could have done so without the assistance of the Soviet military. Our own forces of law and order would have been strong enough, and there is no evidence for such a request by the GDR. However, it is documented that the GDR leadership requested the Soviet troops stationed in the GDR not to move outside their barracks for the autumn manoeuvres, as this might have sent out a wrong signal.
The Soviet military complied with the GDR’s wishes. There is no evidence of a similar order by Gorbachev. At no point in October or November 1989 did the GDR leadership intend to use violence against its own people. The noble conduct of the border guards on the 9th of November and the ensuing days demonstrates how absurd the West German media’s portrayal is of these troops as “heartless killers.”

What does this anniversary mean to you today?
We are experiencing a massive propaganda campaign, suggesting that the 9th of November 1989 is the most significant date in twentieth-century German history. I continue to believe that the most important day for Germans is the 8th of May 1945, the day Germany was liberated from Hitler fascism. Without this victory by the anti-Hitler coalition, Germany would never have emerged from barbarity.
The 9th of November is hardly a suitable date for the day of the century. It is the anniversary of many episodes, not only of the November Revolution of 1918. It is above all the day on which one of the most terrible acts in German history was committed. It was the day that signalled the beginning of one of the most heinous crimes of humankind, the genocide of the Jewish people [the pogrom on the so-called Kristallnacht]. Such a date must never be overshadowed by any other event.

What exactly do you mean?
The spin that propagates the lie of “two German dictatorships,” which places the GDR on a level with Nazi Germany, aims at revising history from an anti-communist standpoint. The truth is, if war had not emanated from German soil there would have been no refugees from Eastern and Western Prussia, Pomerania, and Silesia. There would have been no occupation by foreign troops, no division into zones, consequently no two German states; no border right through Germany and Berlin, and indeed there would not have been a wall. To really understand post-war German history one must pose the question, How and by whom was Germany divided? Germany was long divided by the time the GDR was founded. It is essential to understand the nature of the Cold War.

What was the Cold War, in your opinion?
It was far more than a propaganda war. It was in its nature a Third World War. While it was cold, it always hovered on the edge of a possible nuclear war. Instead of celebrating the fact that peace was maintained, the powers that be today continue to use the Cold War as a way of condemning the GDR.

When did it become clear to you that the GDR would not continue to exist the way it was?
Quite late. At the end of November 1989 Gorbachev had informed me that he would be declaring the end of the Cold War at his meeting with Bush in Malta. This made me wonder what would become of the GDR: it was, after all, an outcome of the Second World War and the Cold War that followed.
In a situation where one side unilaterally declares a conflict to be at an end, this amounts to a political capitulation. Today NATO stands on the border with Russia, while the Warsaw Treaty no longer exists. Neither the world nor Germany has become safer or more equal. Following the end of the Soviet Union, hostility began in the Balkans. And Germany is waging war once again. In 1989 I would not have thought this possible in my wildest dreams.
The GDR did not prevent violence in 1989 so that the soldiers of a united Germany could spill their blood in the Hindu Kush [the mountains between Pakistan and Afghanistan]. That would have been inconceivable at that time. This is a historical fact: the GDR is the only German state never to have waged a war. In view of these facts it is scandalous how the Federal Republic of Germany handles GDR history.

Is there anything you are proud of?
Of course there is. There was much greater importance attached to social and economic rights in the GDR than in Germany today. There was equal pay for equal work. Men, women and young people were equal. The GDR had child-care facilities that allowed both parents to work. It had a modern education system, which guaranteed equal opportunities for all the children of the nation. Free or heavily subsidised access to the treasures of culture and the arts, an effective health system . . .
The German president, Köhler, is of the opinion that the GDR bought its social security through huge foreign debts that eventually caused bankruptcy. This is not true. According to an official statement by the German State Bank regarding the GDR debt, “at the end of 1989 the net debt was 19.9 billion marks.” This converts to €10 billion—a lot of money. However, the economist Horst Köhler is well aware that this does not cause the bankruptcy of a state unless the political conditions for this are in place. Compare the GDR’s debt with Germany’s present state debt of more than €1.6 trillion. With more than €86 billion, Germany has achieved the highest level of new borrowings since the Second World War. That is for only one year—eight times the amount of the GDR’s total debt.

And what about the wall?
The wall didn’t fall out of the sky. No less a person than the US president John F. Kennedy said in 1961: “It is not a very nice solution, but it is a hell of a lot better than war.” The wall marked not only the German-German border. It was in its way unique in the world. It was the border between systems, capitalism and socialism, between blocs, NATO and the Warsaw Treaty, between economies, the EEC and the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance. I always regretted deaths and casualties on the border. Every one of them was one too many. But it would be dishonest of me not to add that at the time of the Cold War a unilateral change of this border by the GDR would have been impossible.

How do you see socialism today?
Between 1989 and 1991 a certain model of socialism disappeared, but not the socialist idea. It lives on. The present crisis, which is not merely a financial crisis but a crisis of the system, confirms Marx’s analysis.
The world cannot stay as it is. I am certain that our grandchildren will do better than us. I agree with Rosa Luxemburg: socialism or barbarism.

[Panda Tse Tung]

It's not dismissing them, but being cautious of them. The GDR was far from paradise. Indeed, all of these socialist experiments were. The point is not to try and replicate them again, not to miss them, but to learn from them and not make the same mistakes.
I actually agree >_>.

I would like to ad that despite it being far from a paradise (i wouldn't expect it to be a paradise, neither a future socialist society). It still managed to provide housing for everybody, free education & health care, job-security, cheap public transport (accessibility), no food-banks or other means to need to 'feed' the poor, everyone had decent amounts of food, relatively phew bureaucracy for the average population (not hard to fill in forms), a nice pension (and a good pension-righteous age), a vastly better culture in the sense of solidarity amongst people etc... etc...
Making it in every sense vastly superior to the capitalist system.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Ah Emre I managed to read that Krenz interview too last night. An interesting read, though he does not seem to really understand the problem with the Wall in the first place. If the upper echelons of the Socialist Unity Party in Germany really believed the people supported the government, they should have allowed them free movement, regardless of whether the West was being bankrolled by other capitalist nations.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I agree with your materialist analysis of the situation.

However, the fact remains that the West Germans were not the only ones to have educational tools. The masses are not so stupid to the point of being unable to make a decision between a more developed corrupt capitalist economy and a still developing, burgeoning, fair and equal socialist society. The reason why a relatively high number of people wanted to leave the East was that, although it provided security and was a more consumer orientated economy than most socialist systems, the political system was not fair or just.

[Česká Zbrojovka]

Then why arent so many people nostalgic to Nazi-Germany? (at least amongst the elderly)

There are. And their descendants are probably still part of the CIA.

[NecroCommie]

It's not dismissing them, but being cautious of them. The GDR was far from paradise. Indeed, all of these socialist experiments were. The point is not to try and replicate them again, not to miss them, but to learn from them and not make the same mistakes.
My point was oppinionless on that post. The point was to stop people from claiming things like "if they remembered any better they would think otherwise", or what they would want to say: "Their oppinion is not right" We must assume that people who say they liked DDR propably liked DDR. Otherwise there is no point to anything in psychology, philosophy or politics.

[Panda Tse Tung]

There are. And their descendants are probably still part of the CIA.
It's far from as prevalent as GDR nostalgia.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Thank you for the article, too. A good read. However, I disagree with its conclusions, I don't think it was convincing on the issue of the Stasi.

It also highlighted that the mean Gini Co-efficient (measure of inequality) in socialist nations averaged 0.24 in 1970, compared to capitalist nations which averaged 0.48. This certainly puts most capitalist nations to shame (I suspect America brought this average up), however, it is worth noting that as late as 1979, just before Thatcher took power in Britain, our Gini Co-efficient was around the 0.25 mark, which shows that there was still progress to go in places such as the GDR.

It also approximates that 50,000 East Germans were caught trying to escape East Germany over a 28 year period, 756 of them dying as a result of being shot, committing suicide or other after trying to cross the border to the West. I am afraid that this is a figure that cannot be explained by the wealth differential. If wealth was so much of an issue, then this figure is unrealistically low - there would surely be more of a public outcry. If it was not such an issue (which I don't think it was), then it is likely that the 50,000 who left were those who were both against the GDR and brave enough to try to escape. Either way, it is a denial of freedom to jail and even shoot people trying to leave the country.

It is a greater denial of freedom to expand the state secret police apparatus to the level it was, but I suspect this is a discussion for another day.

Let me end all this negativity by congratulating the GDR on its many achievements, despite the deficits of democracy and freedom whcih I have outlined above. It was not a failed state and it was a productive experiment, even if it did not turn out to be a workers' paradise.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

On what do you base this? "Fairness" and "justice" were provided by the capitalist FRG? That is just capitalist propaganda.

Who said that? Fairness and justice were not factors of either regime. I'll even say the former Soviet East Germany may have been more progressive than the Capitalist FRG but it does not detract from the fact that it was capitalist system which upheld the interests of the ruling elite. I don't trumpet the ideas of any Capitalist nation-states.

[Česká Zbrojovka]

It's far from as prevalent as GDR nostalgia.

Well you do know that fascist Germans were recruited into the Central Intelligence Agency
at the end of the war to help with the Manhattan project,
and various other psychological operations (MK Ultra) etc. Right? It doesn't stop at that either.
If you know what the KGB were up to then you would probably imagine.

I'm obviously all for GDR Revival. Hey, it may happen one day.
Here's to hope and effort. Only let's get it right this time!

[Drace]

This says differently...
Surprisingly Germany has the largest supporters of capitalism?

[Panda Tse Tung]

Well you do know that fascist Germans were recruited into the Central Intelligence Agency
at the end of the war to help with the Manhattan project,
and various other psychological operations (MK Ultra) etc. Right? It doesn't stop at that either.
If you know what the KGB were up to then you would probably imagine.

I'm obviously all for GDR Revival. Hey, it may happen one day.
Here's to hope and effort. Only let's get it right this time!

I know this. However i don't see the relevance of this point in reference to nostalgia?

[Tyrlop]

"Social science professors warn of a growing tendency to idealise East Germany while playing down the repressive aspects of the rigorously controlled state."

[NecroCommie]

This says differently...
Surprisingly Germany has the largest supporters of capitalism?
Does "this" count the population of the ex-western germany?

[Panda Tse Tung]

This says differently...
Surprisingly Germany has the largest supporters of capitalism?
Some random poll, the majority of all other polls beg to differ in reference to East-Germany.

[Ravachol]

I actually agree >_>.

I would like to ad that despite it being far from a paradise (i wouldn't expect it to be a paradise, neither a future socialist society). It still managed to provide housing for everybody, free education & health care, job-security, cheap public transport (accessibility), no food-banks or other means to need to 'feed' the poor, everyone had decent amounts of food, relatively phew bureaucracy for the average population (not hard to fill in forms), a nice pension (and a good pension-righteous age), a vastly better culture in the sense of solidarity amongst people etc... etc...
Making it in every sense vastly superior to the capitalist system.

Not to mention the fact that your average 21st century capitalist state has an invasive, privacy-violating police and intelligence apparatus that dwarfs the stasi's wildest dreams.

[ls]

I am curious to know, what % of people, of UK and USA, those who are nostalgic about the 50's, belong to the working class. I can guess that not a big %. But, here in those cases, those who are nostalgic, belongs to the working class. THAT MAY BE NOT A VERY BIG MATTER OF CONCERN TO OTHERS, BUT FOR ME AT LEAST.

A completely massive % of working-class people want a return to the 'good old days' here in the UK actually.

I think you'll find a lot of working-class people in the USA think similarly, based on "Clinton's great presidency" or even further back to the days of Kennedy. Working-class people in the UK certainly think they remember the "good old days" of Old Labour and other crap like that though.

This is a largely relevant point in my mind. Like everyone else has said, we've got to learn from the mistakes of the past and attempt to build a proper DOTP in the future, there's no point holding back on proportionate criticism on now defunct states.

[bailey_187]

Not to mention the fact that your average 21st century capitalist state has an invasive, privacy-violating police and intelligence apparatus that dwarfs the stasi's wildest dreams.

Even in the 20th Century, more was spent per capita on West German policing than East German policing.
(from A. Murphy - The Triumph of Evil)

I will look up some more good stats and facts about the Stasi later if i remember.

[pranabjyoti]

A completely massive % of working-class people want a return to the 'good old days' here in the UK actually.

I think you'll find a lot of working-class people in the USA think similarly, based on "Clinton's great presidency" or even further back to the days of Kennedy. Working-class people in the UK certainly think they remember the "good old days" of Old Labour and other crap like that though.

This is a largely relevant point in my mind. Like everyone else has said, we've got to learn from the mistakes of the past and attempt to build a proper DOTP in the future, there's no point holding back on proportionate criticism on now defunct states.
That means, those time were much more pro-worker than today's neoliberal days. Actually, during the 50s, due the strong presence of USSR, the imperialist countries too had to take some pro-working class "welfare measures" and if the working class is nostalgic about that, that means the working class is thinking that those days, when there was better social welfare measures are better than today. Certainly, the fact has very good similarity with the feelings of citizens of former soviet republics.

[MeansOfDeduction]

Referring to the article about the Eastern Bloc, this is just another clear cut example of how rapid liberal democratization just does not work. We can also use the case in Iraq as an example of how crude the methods of the United States are when they attempt to indoctrinate "democracy" onto a state without evaluating the political composition of the state.

[ls]

That means, those time were much more pro-worker than today's neoliberal days. Actually, during the 50s, due the strong presence of USSR, the imperialist countries too had to take some pro-working class "welfare measures" and if the working class is nostalgic about that, that means the working class is thinking that those days, when there was better social welfare measures are better than today. Certainly, the fact has very good similarity with the feelings of citizens of former soviet republics.

Honestly, you put too much thought into 'neoliberalism'. What used to exist was factually worse in more ways than what we have now, this country gets more racist the further you go back in history, same for the USA (for example). Don't you think that people forget what was bad about the past and embrace what was good when they feel they have a crap time now? Do you think that most working-class people use historical materialism to critically analyse what was good and what was bad?

Perhaps one of the best examples of this is all the talk about workers' militancy. There weren't better living conditions in this country which led to people taking their own initiative, in fact, the "good old days" were terrible, that is what caused more militancy! You've got it completely the wrong way round and unfortunately, so have a lot of other working-class people, in many countries.

[pranabjyoti]

Honestly, you put too much thought into 'neoliberalism'. What used to exist was factually worse in more ways than what we have now, this country gets more racist the further you go back in history, same for the USA (for example). Don't you think that people forget what was bad about the past and embrace what was good when they feel they have a crap time now? Do you think that most working-class people use historical materialism to critically analyse what was good and what was bad?
Well, perhaps they don't use "historical materialism", but their own experience can get them closer to it.

Perhaps one of the best examples of this is all the talk about workers' militancy. There weren't better living conditions in this country which led to people taking their own initiative, in fact, the "good old days" were terrible, that is what caused more militancy! You've got it completely the wrong way round and unfortunately, so have a lot of other working-class people, in many countries.
Not just "terrible days" won't cause the militancy. If that is the material condition, then perhaps all the third world countries would be RED today. Another condition is necessary for militancy and that is "life can be better and our combined effort can make it better". THIS IS THE VERY ROOT CAUSE OF ALL KIND OF SOCIAL MOVEMENTS.

[ls]

Well, perhaps they don't use "historical materialism", but their own experience can get them closer to it.

You are ignoring the fact (and it is a fact) that people rose tint their spectacles when looking back, when their immediate conditions suck.


Not just "terrible days" won't cause the militancy. If that is the material condition, then perhaps all the third world countries would be RED today.

The conditions in India are seriously bad at the moment, the peasants are in a serious crisis and the Indian government is trying to do things such as get them internet access to view crop prices, this isn't in-step with their suffering though, it is a long program that won't provide any immediate help.. and we can see people turning to Maoism because there are indeed "terrible days" in India.


Another condition is necessary for militancy and that is "life can be better and our combined effort can make it better". THIS IS THE VERY ROOT CAUSE OF ALL KIND OF SOCIAL MOVEMENTS.

Yep, which is why winning transitionary demands for east German workers is vitally important at the moment, what a shame Die Linke is going down the pan.

[pranabjyoti]

You are ignoring the fact (and it is a fact) that people rose tint their spectacles when looking back, when their immediate conditions suck.
Certainly, specially to those period, when conditions are comparatively good. I think what you have said favored my argument.


The conditions in India are seriously bad at the moment, the peasants are in a serious crisis and the Indian government is trying to do things such as get them internet access to view crop prices, this isn't in-step with their suffering though, it is a long program that won't provide any immediate help.. and we can see people turning to Maoism because there are indeed "terrible days" in India.
Not only in India, but also throughout the whole third world conditions are deteriorating. But, not everywhere we can see bursts of struggle. Even in India, the outburst of struggle is in the recent decade. While the worst conditions remained for a much longer time.

Yep, which is why winning transitionary demands for east German workers is vitally important at the moment, what a shame Die Linke is going down the pan.
Well, actually Germans are comparing the former East Germany with the present United Germany. Maybe former East Germany was worse, but conditions in the United Germany is worst.

[ls]

Certainly, specially to those period, when conditions are comparatively good. I think what you have said favored my argument.

But that's not the point I made, the point is that even when conditions were worse, people rose tint their spectacles and say they want them back.. after about a decade or so people forget and a new generation is knocking about. This isn't just a comment on DDR in particular, but in general it stands true. It's true here in Britain that conditions were worse but people still want them back.


Well, actually Germans are comparing the former East Germany with the present United Germany. Maybe former East Germany was worse, but conditions in the United Germany is worst.

Sorry, you've confused me a bit here.

[pranabjyoti]

But that's not the point I made, the point is that even when conditions were worse, people rose tint their spectacles and say they want them back.. after about a decade or so people forget and a new generation is knocking about. This isn't just a comment on DDR in particular, but in general it stands true. It's true here in Britain that conditions were worse but people still want them back.
I, in my own country, India, haven't find anyone who is looking back to the British period with a rose tint glass. I can strongly say that the scenario is same in other third world countries. If what you have said is true, then why just 50s, why not 60s, 70s?
In my country, a lot of people are looking back to the 70s with a ROSE TINT glass, specially from the working class. Why? Because that time was "worse", in your definition, but that was the time of struggle too.
People always look back with rose tint glasses isn't as universal as you think.

[ls]

I, in my own country, India, haven't find anyone who is looking back to the British period with a rose tint glass.

Who said it has to be that far? I'm sure that there were more times of prosperity than there are now between when teh British invaded and the current day... that's a long time in world history, prana.


I can strongly say that the scenario is same in other third world countries. If what you have said is true, then why just 50s, why not 60s, 70s?

I don't understand your point, I never said anything about the 50s in particular, it was just a comment in general. It can be looking back to any time period from another..


In my country, a lot of people are looking back to the 70s with a ROSE TINT glass, specially from the working class. Why? Because that time was "worse", in your definition, but that was the time of struggle too.
People always look back with rose tint glasses isn't as universal as you think.

Exactly, you have proven my point and you have proven that it is in fact universal. ;)

Incidentally, the Maoists in the 70s didn't have as strong a foothold in Indian politics as they do now.

[RHIZOMES]

"Social science professors warn of a growing tendency to idealise East Germany while playing down the repressive aspects of the rigorously controlled state."

Oh wow, social science professors!!

[pranabjyoti]

Exactly, you have proven my point and you have proven that it is in fact universal. ;)
Incidentally, the Maoists in the 70s didn't have as strong a foothold in Indian politics as they do now.
Exactly for that reason, a huge no. of people from the working class is now indirectly supporting the Maoist uprising all over India. 70s was the starting point, certainly Maoists of India today have taken some good lesson from the drawbacks of the 70s.