Fuck the tank man and the dissedents

[Proletarian]

Why do so many people who refer to themselves as revolutionaries love the tank man, he was a counter revolutionary and he and all the dissidents in Bejing were too.

[Pogue]

Why do so many people who refer to themselves as revolutionaries love the tank man, he was a counter revolutionary and he and all the dissidents in Bejing were too.

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/7161/samp.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/samp.jpg/)

[Wanted Man]

http://i37.tinypic.com/14jqq0y.jpg

Those damn dissedents!

[RedSonRising]

You trust a State with a red banner more than a group of citizens risking their lives for an incorporation of their voices and interests in government?



Look up your political theory and the history of China's revolution, and try to figure out how China got the way it is today, and maybe it won't seem so out of place. Massacring student protesters wasn't exactly Marx's idea of proletarian emancipation.

[Wanted Man]

picture


You trust a State with a red banner more than a group of citizens risking their lives for an incorporation of their voices and interests in government?



Look up your political theory and the history of China's revolution, and try to figure out how China got the way it is today, and maybe it won't seem so out of place. Massacring student protesters wasn't exactly Marx's idea of proletarian emancipation.

Stop dessinting, you bloody dissedents.

[scarletghoul]

Why the hell is pogue still allowed to post, let alone be in the CC?

Anyway Proletarian the protesters in Tiananmen Square were certainly not counter-revolutionaries. They were protesting against the capitalist Dengist government, not against socialism. In fact many of them were Maoists, who wanted China to return to socialism. They sung the Internationale. They were not counter-revolutionary. They were defending the revolution, like the people had done before in the GPCR

[Stranger Than Paradise]

They were actually maoists! How can you be supporting Deng's Capitalism over workers protesting?

[Pogue]

Why the hell is pogue still allowed to post, let alone be in the CC?

Anyway Proletarian the protesters in Tiananmen Square were certainly not counter-revolutionaries. They were protesting against the capitalist Dengist government, not against socialism. In fact many of them were Maoists, who wanted China to return to socialism. They sung the Internationale. They were not counter-revolutionary. They were defending the revolution, like the people had done before in the GPCR

I must say this conforms to my own analysis comrade. Rest assured I will make a thread in the CC promptly requesting the immediate banning of this disruptive comrade.

[x359594]

Why do so many people who refer to themselves as revolutionaries love the tank man, he was a counter revolutionary and he and all the dissidents in Bejing were too.

If you believe the turn to capitalism led by Deng and his clique is somehow revolutionary, then I guess they were all counter revolutionaries, and the the destruction of socialism in the PRC under their leadership is a mighty stride for world revolution.

On the other hand, those of us who favor a socialist revolution have a different view. According to one source, the "tank man" was a dyed-in-the-wool Marxist-Leninist ideologue who sought the overthrow of the "capitalist roaders" then under the leadership of Comrade Deng Xiao Ping. He hoped to inspire the politically conscious cadres in the PLA to take back the Party from the revisionists.

I can testify that not all the dissidents in Beijing were counter revolutionaries. I've talked to Bei Dao and Wan Li who are definitely NOT counter revolutionaries. The analysis of these committed revolutionaries takes into account the presence of a range of people involved in the protest, some of whom were indeed counter revolutionaries, but certainly not all.

[Crux]

Well, scarlet ghoul answered some of it. Another misconcpetion is that it was mostly students, when the majority of people taking part in the protests were worker's there was even an independent labour union founded, which was on of the main reasons for the state crackdown.

Here's comrade Steve Jolly's report from the Tianmen square:
http://socialistworld.net/pubs/tiananmen/ch01.html

[The Idler]

That'd be the dissidents who sung the Internationale would it?

[Proletarian]

you have any info on this scarl?

[bricolage]

Oh dear...

[Crux]

you have any info on this scarl?
Well, I provided Steve Jolly's eyewitness report if you are interested.

[Proletarian]

reason i say they were counter revolutionaries is because on the youtube documentary, hundreds of the dissedents were on since moving to America UK etc and they were claiming the protest was to end the chinese political system, one even became a us proff at a uni and he was saying the same aswell.
looked like they were counter revolutionaries from where i was standing, though if i am sent proof i would of course apologise.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Many of the protesters were mourning the death of a pro-reform political figure, these people can possibly be considered counter-revolutionary, but there were also a great deal of socialists out that day too, Maoists, Trotskyists, all sorts, the Communists were protesting against Dengism, which is understandable really.

[#FF0000]

reason i say they were counter revolutionaries is because on the youtube documentary, hundreds of the dissedents were on since moving to America UK etc and they were claiming the protest was to end the chinese political system, one even became a us proff at a uni and he was saying the same aswell.
looked like they were counter revolutionaries from where i was standing, though if i am sent proof i would of course apologise.

They looked like that because you're ignorant of Chinese history, that's all.

The quick rundown is this. The protesters were protesting the market reforms the government was putting in place. Some were protesting against it in favor of socialism, and others, I believe, were protesting because they felt the reforms didn't go far enough in moving away from socialism.

[Proletarian]

so i was half right? just because some were communists, that dosent mean the protests were done in a socialiust theme

[#FF0000]

so i was half right? just because some were communists, that dosent mean the protests were done in a socialiust theme

What do you mean by "a socialist theme"?

And either way, the Chinese government ain't shit worth defending.

[Spawn of Stalin]

so i was half right? just because some were communists, that dosent mean the protests were done in a socialiust theme
They were basically anti-establishment protests, with Communists protesting against market reforms, and non-Communists protesting against corruption and some other things. Both market reforms and corruption should be opposed.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Why do so many people who refer to themselves as revolutionaries love the tank man, he was a counter revolutionary and he and all the dissidents in Bejing were too.

is it me or is that not a glaring contradiction?

[Led Zeppelin]

Yeah, god damn the tank man. I said God damn, god, god damn the tank man.

Well, now if I were the president of this land
You know, I'd declare total war on The Tank man

I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun

Goddamn the tank man.

[Sasha]

Why do so many people who refer to themselves as revolutionaries love the tank man, he was a counter revolutionary and he and all the dissidents in Bejing were too.


wow, an anti-tank-tanky...

[Crux]

so i was half right? just because some were communists, that dosent mean the protests were done in a socialiust theme
Just because it wasn't an all-socialist protest that doesn't make the corrupt chinese government revolutionary. So you were half wrong. Both halfes.

[Saorsa]

I have a thread in my honour. Finally, I've been waiting so long! :lol:

[Guerrilla22]

Why do so many people who refer to themselves as revolutionaries love the tank man, he was a counter revolutionary and he and all the dissidents in Bejing were too.

He stood in the way of a battle tank. That takes some big ones.

[NecroCommie]

Many good points have been brought up, but I'd add one more point to remember on this issue. Class war is not about supporting worker states, even if they are built in order to further the class struggle. Class struggle and the working class must first be class concious rather than obedient. Considering that the tank man was protesting for the students of that time, he was an epitome of class consciousness.

Besides, one may question the position of the Chinese state of the 70's as a workers state.

[bcbm]

Chinese state of the 70's

tiananmen was in 89

[RadioRaheem84]

What's funny is I never knew that Tank Man and the dissidents were protesting the market reforms until I actually read upon them nearly a decade after he protested!

According to the US media, I thought the dissidents were just protesting the government because it was "communist". I never heard a peep about their protests against the liberalization of their market.

What was the media's account of the Tank Man in other countries?

[RadioRaheem84]

If you believe the turn to capitalism led by Deng and his clique is somehow revolutionary, then I guess they were all counter revolutionaries, and the the destruction of socialism in the PRC under their leadership is a mighty stride for world revolution.

On the other hand, those of us who favor a socialist revolution have a different view. According to one source, the "tank man" was a dyed-in-the-wool Marxist-Leninist ideologue who sought the overthrow of the "capitalist roaders" then under the leadership of Comrade Deng Xiao Ping. He hoped to inspire the politically conscious cadres in the PLA to take back the Party from the revisionists.

I can testify that not all the dissidents in Beijing were counter revolutionaries. I've talked to Bei Dao and Wan Li who are definitely NOT counter revolutionaries. The analysis of these committed revolutionaries takes into account the presence of a range of people involved in the protest, some of whom were indeed counter revolutionaries, but certainly not all.

Any links?

[The Something]

This thread should be locked for the shear idiocy. Or next best moved to learning.

[NecroCommie]

tiananmen was in 89
My bad. But then again it proves my point even further.

[Il Medico]

Wow. I really hope the OP is just misinformed, because this is bad, even by tankie standards.
http://ngishili.com/images/tank_china.jpg

[el_chavista]

Why do so many people ...love the tank man...
Yeah, even Yeltsin played his Hollywood sketch stopping and mounting on a tank when the 1991 "coup d'état". :tongue_smilie:

[Revy]

hmm maybe I should change my username to Tank Man.:D

[Crux]

It's funny because in China that picture is said to show the "restraint" used by the military. Again, to those interested I recommend Steve Jolly's article.

[The Red Next Door]

China had lost itself as a communist nation when they decide to be a bunch of totalitarian pigs, Marx wouldn't support such an act of mass murder. Just because people want the right to voice their opinion means they are reactionary? There is no socialist idea when you have to live in a country where the state control everything instead of the people. The people republic of China my ass! The authoritarian state republic of China would be the right words to describe the government of China.

[Invincible Summer]

What's funny is I never knew that Tank Man and the dissidents were protesting the market reforms until I actually read upon them nearly a decade after he protested!

According to the US media, I thought the dissidents were just protesting the government because it was "communist". I never heard a peep about their protests against the liberalization of their market.

What was the media's account of the Tank Man in other countries?

I think most Western media portrayed the events at T-Square to be protests "against Communism."

[RedStarOverChina]

The mainstream of the students in Tiananmen were most definitely "capitalist roaders". Orkesh Dolet, a leader of the student movement, noted that a desire to be able to buy Nike shoes and other consumer goods was among the things that inspired members of his generation to act.

[RedStarOverChina]

They were protesting against corruption in the government and later on, the lack of bourgeois democracy. No one was protesting against market reforms, get it straight.

Mao was a symbol against corruption then, and he remains as such in China today. Putting up his picture in the protest serves both as a protest against corruption and as a protection for the students themselves. ("Hey, we are patriotic Chinese folks who love Chairman Mao. Don't shoot at us.") It by no means imply the students were Maoists.

[Proletarian]

so i was right?

[Intelligitimate]

http://www.cnd.org/HYPLAN/yawei/june4th/wmr2.jpg
http://www.cnd.org/HYPLAN/yawei/june4th/wmr1b.jpg

Murdered by friends of "tank man".

Look how peaceful they were!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BeAZugeiBk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y6JK6WZi8Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv3Qmamsv84

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otTbOxLesg0 - disembowelled, castrated soldier at 4:45

This is in contrast to the restraint of the People's Liberation Army, who showed tremendous restraint at the violence directed at them. Rarely is the entire footage of "tank man" shown, where he is allowed to climb the tank and beat on it, completely unmolested in any fashion.

[RedStarOverChina]

so i was right?
I wouldn't go as far as say "fuck the students". I would not support either side. Theirs was a generation which thrived on American propaganda radio. They had genuine concerns about the country they loved, but they were used by Western Imperialism.

On the other hand, I also would hesitate to defend the CCP, a party that by the late 80s was a already cesspool of corruption.

[RedStarOverChina]

http://www.cnd.org/HYPLAN/yawei/june4th/wmr2.jpg
http://www.cnd.org/HYPLAN/yawei/june4th/wmr1b.jpg

Murdered by friends of "tank man".

Look how peaceful they were!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BeAZugeiBk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y6JK6WZi8Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv3Qmamsv84

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otTbOxLesg0 - disembowelled, castrated soldier at 4:45

This is in contrast to the restraint of the People's Liberation Army, who showed tremendous restraint at the violence directed at them. Rarely is the entire footage of "tank man" shown, where he is allowed to climb the tank and beat on it, completely unmolested in any fashion.

I have seen no evidence that the students turned violent before troops opened fire. Ideologies aside, I find it hard to sympathize troops with guns who shoot at unarmed students.