SDL/EDL Glasgow 14th of November

[harry roberts]

can we call on as many comrades from across britland (but in particularly Scotland) to attend

Anti-fascists will be assembling in Glasgow city centre early doors, with the intention of stopping the SDL/EDL from being able to assemble and organise in our city. Bring flags, banners, placards etc!

Arrive in groups and stay safe. We would encourage everyone to come down early even if you intend to later go to the Glasgow Green event.

[munter]

aye we need a big turn out for this. agree get there early as the polis are gonna be on it.

[welshboy]

UAF and Scotland United seem to be doing their best to avoid the SDL as much as possible. Their demo is hours after the SDL one.

[Sam_b]

Is noon 'hours after the SDL one'?

We're calling for comrades to be about much earlier anyway.

[welshboy]

I thought the Scotland United bollocks was closer to 2p.m.?

[Ravachol]

Registered to the EDL scum forum and managed to do a bit of infiltrating and got this e-mail which has only been sent to certain members.


---------------------

The twats are scared to give us or anyone the location till the last minute haha

Hehe, Nice, but don't go posting those things in a public forum. Contact your local Antifa/Autonomous Antifascist Group and arrange things with them. This is a public forum, remember.

[Nabz85]

Hehe, Nice, but don't go posting those things in a public forum. Contact your local Antifa/Autonomous Antifascist Group and arrange things with them. This is a public forum, remember.

Sorted mate i just deleted it

I'll forward to the people who have posted in this thread

If anyone else is interested on the EDL forward e-mail just give us a pm :).

[TRS]

plans are well in place. Don't worry, we ain't gonna let SWP/UAF twats ruin this one with their state co-operation.

[comboplatter]

Please tell me your plans are still about telling fascists they cannot and will not be welcomed in Glasgow.

If you make this event about non-co-operation with the state, to the detriment of the main cause, you will make some people very happy.

The wrong people.

[Holden Caulfield]

Please tell me your plans are still about telling fascists they cannot and will not be welcomed in Glasgow.

If you make this event about non-co-operation with the state, to the detriment of the main cause, you will make some people very happy.

The wrong people.

Working with the state to combat fascism is like trying to put a fire out with a petrol hose.

[comboplatter]

That's a great explosive image. It hasn't much meaning, however, beyond backing up your point with fire. Interestingly, your post suggests I have suggested 'working with the state'.

I haven't said that.

My concern was that the emphasis for this event is (and should be) on telling this particular sack of ****s (the SDL, EDL, whatever these folks want to call themselves) that they are not welcome here. If teh event becomes about resisting the state, there is a risk of making the anti-fascist point less powerfully.

All too often I have seen protests diverted and diluted by mixed messages. We will not be overthrowing the British political system tomorrow, nor would it be sensible to seek to do so.

One battle at a time. Tomorrow's is about the EDL.

Anyone trying to divert the day from that runs the risk of looking like an EDL infiltrator, or worse, a copper.

[Holden Caulfield]

That's a great explosive image. It hasn't much meaning, however, beyond backing up your point with fire. Interestingly, your post suggests I have suggested 'working with the state'.

I haven't said that.

My concern was that the emphasis for this event is (and should be) on telling this particular sack of ****s (the SDL, EDL, whatever these folks want to call themselves) that they are not welcome here. If teh event becomes about resisting the state, there is a risk of making the anti-fascist point less powerfully.



Let me make myself clearer and make two points:

1) the state creates fascism, working with the state to stop fascism is an abomonation of logic.

2) UAF, because they work with the state, work with the police to make sure that demos are little more than photo opportunities. As they work with the state they get preferential treatment from the state and usually try to ruin other groups pre-existing demos by having another 'offical' one later on or whatever. I am not suggesting that we turn the demo into a anti-state demo, I am saying that UAF working with the state, naming names to the police, working with the police to keep the demo away from the fash etc etc etc is counter productive.

Not to mention the fact they have a page on their website where they show off all the mainstream MPs that support them totally diregarding why people vote BNP in the first place.

You get my point? I wasnt saying the demo should be diverse in its targets, im talking about tactics

[comboplatter]

working with the state

Not suggesting that. I'll answer the rest in a bit, but i cannot get past the fact that that is twice I've had to say that.

[Holden Caulfield]

Not suggesting that. I'll answer the rest in a bit, but i cannot get past the fact that that is twice I've had to say that.

I wasnt saying you were, we misunderstood each other, I was just making my own position clear so it didn't seem like I was throwing out oneline posts that don't mean anything.

So you don't have to anwer the rest if you don't want to, of course if you disagree with what I said feel free.

welcome to the forum btw

[blandon]

Evening Al,.

First time blogger (of anything) long time reader. Feel so strongly about this I had to get involved. Without code or indication does anybody know where the Fascist march is actually being held tomorrow? Im fed with up with these [email protected] and Im worried given all the national press coverage of BNP progress etc. Think my support tomorrow has to be offered- if the 'normal' people dont stand up then things will only get worse.

However, in saying that I would probably need to attend myself and Im a 17st, 5ft 10, skinhead---I sure its possible to see predudice from all sides, can anyone offer advice if Im looking to turn out in support?

So glad the Glasgow east bi-election turned out as it did-many may disagree with Labour but some of the alternaives is the stuff of nightmares.

As always, no offence intended- unless you are racist by nature.

[gcl]

advice, just turn up.

theres a posting on indymedia scotland indicating that the SDL will be meeting up at a bar in Govan. Govan seems a plausable meet up point for them.

bridge st underground could be an arrival point.

[Sam_b]

am saying that UAF working with the state, naming names to the police, working with the police to keep the demo away from the fash

Evidence to back up your claims, please.

[Holden Caulfield]

Evidence to back up your claims, please.

Well apart from verbal reports from several comrades I know personally and trust, and who have nothing to gain by lying, the reports of several members of this site (Anton, Pogue, et al) there is also an offical statement by Afed:



The Anarchist Federation condemns the group Unite Against Fascism (UAF) who, on Saturday 31st October at a mobilisation against the English Defence League (EDL) in Leeds city centre, openly handed one of our members over to the police. Several UAF stewards, including the head of UAF Leeds, physically prevented our member from rejoining the cordon, and then called the police over to arrest him. We will not tolerate collaboration with the state to halt the activity of genuine anti-fascists and ask other progressive organisations to do the same. UAF's policy of negotiating with the state for its public protests is well known, as is its alliance with religious leaders, trade union bureaucrats and politicians. UAF, apart from being nothing more than a front group for the Socialist Workers Party, has never been an effective means to combat the rise of fascism in Britain nor does it offer anything to working class communities.

D. Yates, National Secretary (Anarchist Federation, UK)


Thoughts on all this Sam?

[Sam_b]

My thoughts are that name is not names plural, there is no evidence to back up this assertion either, and AFed love to consider themselves much more important and effective in combatting fascism. I still struggle to work out why they keep attending UAF organised demos if everything about them is complete scorn.

[Holden Caulfield]

My thoughts are that name is not names plural, there is no evidence to back up this assertion either, and AFed love to consider themselves much more important and effective in combatting fascism. I still struggle to work out why they keep attending UAF organised demos if everything about them is complete scorn.

I was going to edit my post to include this but I thort I'ld let you answer first.

The Afed thing is about Leeds but the other reports were from Manchester and I can't remember which demo the other one was. Now at these they didn't 'hand people over' to the police, but they collaborated with them to physically stop real militant antifascists. Oh and on two occasions (Oxford Union and Central London Demo) they have called mates of mine fascists because of the way they look (not wearing kaffirs) which is just mean.

Yes Afed's effort has been piss poor, yes other parties have not done what they should, but that doesn't in any way what so ever give SWP/UAF free reign to do what they want and justify it with 'well you can't talk...'

Why keep defending UAF, it needs to change or forever be the thing to be scorned

[nuisance]

AFed love to consider themselves much more important and effective in combatting fascism.
No, the organisation doesn't say this, but instead believes that other tactics are both more effective and necessary


I still struggle to work out why they keep attending UAF organised demos if everything about them is complete scorn.
So, people who disagree with UAF shouldn't demonstrate against fascist groups if UAF has already declared it as their own? Fuck right off. The point here, that you seem to be evading, is that a UAF steward handed a AFer to the cops because the steward disagrees the individual ideology. Are you going to try and defend that?

[Sam_b]

I'm not defending that at all, where did I say that? Quite simply, I don't believe it actually happened.

[Holden Caulfield]

yeah yeah and Trotsky was killed by a disgruntled supporter.
the SWP come across awful comintern circa. 1930's sometimes

[nuisance]

I'm not defending that at all, where did I say that? Quite simply, I don't believe it actually happened.
Why would anyone make this up? And if you are serious in making that statement, then be aware that you're calling multiple posters on this site liars.

[Leeds AFer]

I don't believe it actually happened.

Yeah, because we love making up fantastical rumours. We're just inherently Bad People, that's why were anarchists, and not paper sellers. We live for this kinda shit.

From this site, i think ranma saw it and puke on cops did too. Id wager some other folks who have accounts here will have seen it too, but i dont know who they are because im only guessing they have accounts. I also saw it, and whats more the lad it happened to is my housemate (i can see if he fancies setting up an account on here too when he gets back, if you fancy talking to the guy personally?). Afterwards we spent a good 15 minutes shouting at the stewards/wannabe-coppers who had done it, before one of them went up on stage to give a speech about anti-fascist unity. Prick.

Im not sure if anyone aside from the FIT team has a video/photo of my housemate getting dragged off (to my knowledge none of us had cameras), though ive definitely seen photos of us shouting at stewards. Although if we posted them, id wager you'll just assume its us shouting at stewards for the fun of it, because as weve established already AF members are all crazy liars who just love to stir up trouble for no reason at all on account of being Bad People.

[comboplatter]

(not wearing kaffirs)

I think you mean 'keffiyeh'. 'Kaffir' is a south african racial epithet, and as such not really appropriate.

[Pogue]

Its an easy mistake to make, one that I amde a point fo avoiding, the scarf is pronounced 'keff-yar' and the racist term is 'caff-ere'.

[munter]

I just sent this to uaf etc and posted it on indymedia sorry, bad spelling, really tired -
You are a disgrace, disgusting, and a liability.

I was in Glasgow today, and your actions put all of us in danger, and alienated the general public.

Scotland United - why, why oh why did you march from the green to George square? chanting all the way. Who where the chants aimed at the fash? where were they? miles away so they could not hear you. does your march achieve anything? what difference did it make to the thugs in the pub? they are not an organistion that can be stop or changed in that way?"?!? So all you done was long like a rabble to the mass public who looked confused.

UAF - (Disgrace) who the fuk do you think you are! when we got to the pub where the fash where, which was confirmed, you lot went the other way. Off to the green and speeches! what was the fukin point in that. The fash are there you run away shouting bash the fash. Leaving antifa, green brigade etc to sort it out. There was no need for you confront them, engage or get violent. But a presence was needed, without doubt.

To both of you - you disgust me, you marched around today chanting "antifa hooligans" and "no parasan" when none of you are antifa, and will not engage in anyway! And how dare you, how FUKING DARE YOU, say those words - no parasan. People have died over this, over the years, those words mean something. Not marching through the streets with weekend warriors, and celeb politicians.

One more thing, sort it, this has happened too many times, someone is going to get hurt, through your actions.

Antifa hooligan.

[Sam_b]

Wow, how eloquent you are.

Its quite funny, and also shows up how we differ in fighting fascism: we don't support small-scale action of a few squadist individuals because fascism has never been historically defeated that way: it is always through the mass mobilisation of the working class. You and your ilk at the front of the 10am demo were indeed the libaility: as you all charged up near Cowcaddens, splitting the demo, despite the majority of the protest telling you all to get back less you walk into a kettle (it was common knowledge that the road in particular had at least a hundred police officers manning it). You endangered the entire march by several attempts at splitting off.

Thankfully the majority of the demonstrators, anarchists and militants included, joined the demo at the Green, of which we were able to mobilise later on upon hearing that the SDL had been able to get through and into the city centre.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Its quite funny, and also shows up how we differ in fighting fascism: we don't support small-scale action of a few squadist individuals

But none of us are suggesting we should splinter into little action squads. We're advocating direct confrontation with fascists unlike UAF and United Scotland


because fascism has never been historically defeated that way: it is always through the mass mobilisation of the working class.

Yes. Yes it is.
Tell this it state funded UAF, with it's police collaboration, watered down definition of fascism and lowest-common denominator politics.



Thankfully the majority of the demonstrators, anarchists and militants included, joined the demo at the Green

Where you sat down, had a rest, listened to local politicians, semi-racists and had a bloody good time.

During which time, the SDL managed to march, not be challenged or confronted and UAF/United Scotland declared victory. You must be proud.

At least the genuine anti-fascists actually attempted to confront fascism head on today. If they were low on numbers (and therefore squadist- apparently) blame UAF and United Scotland for committing to a peaceful walk around the park - done in the name fo anti-fascism.

[Sam_b]

Were you even there? The fact is that the squadists did splinter and weaken the demo, and attempted this on several occasions. Let me also hear your in-depth analysis of the performance of the SDL: where exactly did they 'march', and for how long?

[Ravachol]

Wow, how eloquent you are.

Its quite funny, and also shows up how we differ in fighting fascism: we don't support small-scale action of a few squadist individuals because fascism has never been historically defeated that way: it is always through the mass mobilisation of the working class.


First of all, spare me your patronizing terms. Denouncing militants actually willing to stand up against fascist violence and confronting them on the streets, denying them access to the public domain (with physical confrontation as the possible end result) is just about the lowest an antifascist can go. It's because of these militants, not despite them, that fascism is marginal in a lot of European countries. Countries with otherwise right social conditions for fascism have been prevented from the development of a strong fascist current because all movements seeking to establish one where prevented from marching, holding meetings, spreading propaganda,etc. Now i'm not saying we should focus on mindless hooliganism for hooliganism's sake, but denouncing the militants who are dedicated enough to physically confront the fash as 'squadist' isn't just patronizing, it's actually harmfull to antifascism as a movement.

Mass politics are bound to fail when fascism gets a chance of taking root in the working class, which, as we all know, it will unless it is opposed without compromise.

[puke on cops]

I only found out a few days ago that the UAF Leeds was going to be graced with the appearance of none other than his holyness Lb Dem councillor Richard Brett.

This little shitbag is the reason almost all Leeds Refuse collectors have been on strike since the 7th of September. He's trying to slash their wages by up to a third.

Seriously, how is the UAF going to attract a working class away from the BNP when they invite the people who are trying to ruin their lives?

[harry roberts]

Thankfully the majority of the demonstrators, anarchists and militants included, joined the demo at the Green, of which we were able to mobilise later on upon hearing that the SDL had been able to get through and into the city centre.


who told you that the SDL/EDL were standing on a street corner right next to the main demo? and who were chasing them? Possiblay those 'squadists' you seem to dislike?

What i saw today was simply the UAF/SWP do not have the stomach to CONFRONT the fash. what also i saw was the UAF/SWP directing and encouraging people to avoid CONFRONTATION.

Simple question why did they encourage people to move away from the pub?

[Sam_b]

Pretty easy answer, considering there were a couple of thousand people waiting for us in the Green to march.

I don't know about you but I saw a hell of a lot of people chasing the SDL, not just a handful of Antifa or whatever.

[puke on cops]

I only found out a few days ago that the UAF Leeds was going to be graced with the appearance of none other than his holyness Lb Dem councillor Richard Brett.

This little shitbag is the reason almost all Leeds Refuse collectors have been on strike since the 7th of September. He's trying to slash their wages by up to a third.

Seriously, how is the UAF going to attract a working class away from the BNP when they invite the politicians who are trying to ruin their lives and the BNP are marketing themselves as the party of the Working Class, in opposition to the Status-Quo?

[nuisance]

Pretty easy answer, considering there were a couple of thousand people waiting for us in the Green to march.
So, you purposely march away from the people you're protesting against? Are you having a laugh?


I don't know about you but I saw a hell of a lot of people chasing the SDL, not just a handful of Antifa or whatever.
Why would people participating in militant tactics necessarily be small in number?

[harry roberts]

Pretty easy answer, considering there were a couple of thousand people waiting for us in the Green to march.


why did you need the militant bloc who were quite clearly trying to confront the fash to come march with you? could SWP the torries and SNP not march on their own? or do you need real anti-fascists with you in order to justify calling yourselves antifascists?



I don't know about you but I saw a hell of a lot of people chasing the SDL, not just a handful of Antifa or whatever

Perhaps I was mistaken, I did hear nazi scum off our street being screamed behind me so maybe the UAF/SWP were heavily involved. Also a lot of those guys chasing them knew each other and were all part of that militant bloc that you tried your hardest to keep away from the fash.












Improvements can be made with regards to combating fash and the main mistake of the day was people listened to UAF/SWP and allowed UAF/SWP to move away from confrontation.

I have generally reserved judgement on the UAF/SWP(all the recent incidents involving them etc. I was never there so could not judge) but today I saw how they act. I honestly do not believe the goal of the UAF/SWP is to confront fash and neither do they seem to be on the street leading education programmes or community projects based in working class areas(and don't argue that handing some leaflets out is community action and neither is holding a couple speeches and appearing on the telly). This leads to the question what is the point of UAF/SWP?
Perhaps their goal is to take and sanitise any true militancy in the left. Are the UAF/SWP on a mission to castrate the left?




However, on the whole today was a success the militant bloc(who you accuse of being squadists yet clearly aren't) did their thing, the squadists (who are squadists and proud of it) did there thing and SDL/EDL didn't wander the streets without getting a slap or chased about. They were bussed out(which I believed had a lot to do with people standing outside their pub screaming at them and trying to get stuck in) . We will make life for them harder next time they come to Glasgow we learnt lessons but still Glasgow 1 SDL 0


Perhaps am just tired and my legs are sore from running around. Or perhaps im fustrated for it seems a hollow victory, limtied confrontation (which we came out on top) and a peace march that didnt go near the fash. The fash had to come over to you and if it wasnt for some people noticing them and going ahead with them i wonder what would have happend.....SDL/EDL claiming a victory taking their photties and taking the piss out of glasgow and the left?


but like i said We will make life for them harder next time they come to Glasgow we learnt lessons but still Glasgow 1 SDL 0




P.s. Just for the record i didn't think scotland united and peace march was a bad idea i thought it was a bad idea to take the millitant antifashists away from the pub. The people their should have told UAF/SWP to fuck off and used their owns mind

[Pogue]

Any reports on the event?

[Sam_b]

I'm not oing on an all-out assault on this, I think it needs talked through at length, but the most important point as the comrae says is


Glasgow 1 SDL 0

Im pretty drunk rught now so i'll try my best to reply tomorrow (no promises though), however I think an important number of points have been raised. Regular posters on the board know my political disagreements with the format and structure of UAF and hopefully i'll havve time to address them tomorrow.

[Melbourne Lefty]

points

1. the EDL is, as its name suggests, an english group. It cannot mobilise anything outside of England and seems unlikely to do so in future.

2. the SWP/UAF are, and remain, dozy pricks.

3. damn good turnout, but about as much as can be expected from Scotland, the BNP never managed to make any ground there, and despite a reasonable showing in the recent by-election dont look like ever doing so. Scotland [rangers fans aside] seems to have a very healthy working class/anti-racist atmosphere. Long may it continue.

4. Just because the EDL try hards north and west of the border have proven themselves complete muppets is no reason to underestimate the REAL EDL. They can put bodies on the street in England, and thats a bad thing.:(

[larrym]

I just sent this to uaf etc and posted it on indymedia sorry, bad spelling, really tired -
well said mate

[Pogue]

points

1. the EDL is, as its name suggests, an english group. It cannot mobilise anything outside of England and seems unlikely to do so in future.

2. the SWP/UAF are, and remain, dozy pricks.

3. damn good turnout, but about as much as can be expected from Scotland, the BNP never managed to make any ground there, and despite a reasonable showing in the recent by-election dont look like ever doing so. Scotland [rangers fans aside] seems to have a very healthy working class/anti-racist atmosphere. Long may it continue.

4. Just because the EDL try hards north and west of the border have proven themselves complete muppets is no reason to underestimate the REAL EDL. They can put bodies on the street in England, and thats a bad thing.:(

You gonna go out against them then? You seem to talk the talk...

[Holden Caulfield]

You gonna go out against them then? You seem to talk the talk...

Don't play dick measuring Pogue, its unbecoming:lol:

[Pogue]

Don't play dick measuring Pogue, its unbecoming:lol:

:confused: I have no idea what your on about but rest assured not everything I say is not some pathetic attempt at macho posturing...what I am saying is that if Melbourne Lefty has ideas about this sort of thing it'd be good if he got invovled in anti-fascism wherever he can.

[Sam_b]

My favourite bit was seeing some of the Sieg-Heil brigade being chased into the police vans for their own safety.

My least favourite bit was having Annabel Goldie on the platform. For fucks sake, it was way too popular front in that regard.

[Patchd]

My thoughts are that name is not names plural, there is no evidence to back up this assertion either, and AFed love to consider themselves much more important and effective in combatting fascism. I still struggle to work out why they keep attending UAF organised demos if everything about them is complete scorn.
AFed goes to these events because we go to do something, the UAF happen to only call for these counter-demos, putting their posters everywhere, setting up their stalls and stands and getting their banners to the front of photo opportunities, that's about as far as their militantism goes. They have militant rank-and-file members and supporters, that was clear in Leeds when a number of UAF supporters/members actually broke off from the main crowd after the speaker got up speaking about 'unity' after he just handed (literally) an AF comrade to the police.

Also, there seems to be a general trend of UAF supporters to claim that those actually attempting to do something about the fascist and racist presence on anti-EDL marches are only splitting the anti-fascist crowd there. Well to put it simply, there is already a difference between militant anti-fascists and those who stay in the same zone all day listening to Weyman Bennett bang on about how great the police had been at keeping the peace (when that meant the pigs bashing our heads together too) and how the UAF, by standing around like dicky idiots managed to beat off the fascists. Those so-called 'squaddists' didn't weaken any anti-EDL demo, they just went and did what you claim to be doing.

[Holden Caulfield]

My least favourite bit was having Annabel Goldie on the platform. For fucks sake, it was way too popular front in that regard.

UAF is a popular front, everything said in this thread only makes it even more clear.
I'm sure you know about the behaviour of popular fronts, look at the comparisons

[Sam_b]

Scotland United is not the UAF.

[Anton]

Scotland United is not the UAF.
what would be the major differences, except the name.

[Sam_b]

errrr.....the fact that its an entirely separate organisation and organising body?

I would have thought this was obvious.

[Melbourne Lefty]

You gonna go out against them then? You seem to talk the talk...

Yeah just buy me a plane ticket I will be over there in a jiffy...:rolleyes:

Seriously, I gave a bit of my own personal analysis and thats the response?

No 'you are wrong because' or 'you are right because' but mindless 'so you think ya hard ey?' BS.

Good work Pogue, really helping to keep up the tone of the forum.

Now I remember why I dont bother posting here that much anymore.

[Wanted Man]

So, people who disagree with UAF shouldn't demonstrate against fascist groups if UAF has already declared it as their own? Fuck right off. The point here, that you seem to be evading, is that a UAF steward handed a AFer to the cops because the steward disagrees the individual ideology. Are you going to try and defend that?

I think the point is more like: why join their demonstration if it's completely useless? Why not march separately? As far as I can discern from my comfortable position way over here, your criticisms of the UAF demos are very much justified. But then, why join them in the first place? Maybe I'm missing something here.

[harry roberts]

I think the point is more like: why join their demonstration if it's completely useless? Why not march separately? As far as I can discern from my comfortable position way over here, your criticisms of the UAF demos are very much justified. But then, why join them in the first place? Maybe I'm missing something here.

The march that left from st.enoch centre and went to the pub filled with fash was started and organised by non-UAF/SWP anti-fascists. The issue is that UAF/SWP dammed us all to hell and called us squadists till two days before and said they would join in with us........however they did not join in but took over the march and hence diluted the millitancy and aggression that the orginal organisers had in mind. Not only this but the UAF/SWP then left and took a lot of people with them(naive people who believed the lies of the UAF and thought that the UAF/SWP were incharge) The mistakes of the 'millitants' was not to take the lead but what can you expect when your organistation is non-hierarchacal. We expected people who talk about confrintation to follow through on confrintation. So much for 'smashing the nazis'?........

It was only when the UAF/SWP left with the majority of people leaving the organisers and 'hardcore' anti-fascists outside the pub that the fash were allowed to walk about 10yards outside of their pub. If the majority of people stayed and UAF/SWP had said nothing but just supported the actions of the 'millitants' the Fash would not have even gained that 10yards.

[Sam_b]

You mean the majority of the march wanted to join the thousands more people ready to join them at Glasgow Green?

[puke on cops]

AGAIN...
I only found out a few days ago that the UAF Leeds was going to be graced with the appearance of none other than his holyness Lb Dem councillor Richard Brett.

This little shitbag is the reason almost all Leeds Refuse collectors have been on strike since the 7th of September. He's trying to slash their wages by up to a third.

Seriously, how is the UAF going to attract a working class away from the BNP when they invite the people who are trying to ruin their lives?

[harry roberts]

You mean the majority of the march wanted to join the thousands more people ready to join them at Glasgow Green?

no your lot stood up and said follow us, people in naivety followed you.

Your right to a degree but people should have had sense and told your lot to fuck off. I won't ever understand why you lot told people to go and why you keep't slowing down the march. It was almost as if you didnt want to go near the pub full of fash.

two simple questions do the UAF/SWP support confrontation with fash?
and why did you guys take over the demo by giving speeches and barking orders?

[harry roberts]

sorry about the double post but a comrade from FRFI posted this on another board....there is one interesting positive from the actions of UAF/SWP.....we are seeing real unity forming in Glasgow between left-wing groups, anarchists, republicans as well as committed non-aligned individuals basically real anti-fascists are now working together.....

The SWP’s bogus anti-fascist struggle

Once again the claims of the SWP to be in the forefront of the fight against fascism have been exposed as bogus. On Saturday 14 November in the guise of Unite Against Fascism (UAF), they led hundreds of anti-fascists away from a pub in which fascist Scottish Defence League (SDL) supporters had congregated, to a rally organised by a middle class coalition, Scotland United, where speakers included Scottish Tory leader Annabel Goldie, Scottish Nationalist Party Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, and discredited Labour millionaire MP Mohammad Sarwar.

In the weeks leading up to 14 November, FRFI supporters had led opposition to the attempts by radical lawyer Ammer Anwar to prevent any counter-demonstration to the SDL. Anwar had established Scotland Unite without reference to anyone, and in the lead up to 14 November failed completely to justify his actions under challenge. Meanwhile, the SWP/UAF were unable to make up their minds: side with Anwar and his coalition of the respectable, or with those who were determined to mount a proper anti-fascist demonstration and who had come together under the banner of Glasgow Anti-Fascist Action (GAFA). Only at the last moment, on Thursday 12 November, did they decide to join the GAFA action; a couple of days beforehand they had been defending the Scotland Unite platform despite conceding that the speakers were ‘not quite as good as you might want.’

On the day itself the SWP parachuted in substantial forces including Weymann Bennett, their ubiquitous UAF joint secretary; together with other opportunist forces they were able to hijack the GAFA demonstration and lead it down to their real allies in Scotland Unite, leaving a small number behind who were determined to continue the opposition to the SDL, including FRFI comrades. Once they had left, the SDL supporters were able to have a brief demonstration, before dispersing into small groups to attack anti-fascists in the centre of Glasgow.

Despite their claims, the SWP/UAF are determined to prevent any serious anti-racist anti-fascist movement from developing in Britain. At a protest against a proposed march by the English Defence League (EDL) in Harrow on 11 September, they invited the vicious former immigration minister Tony McNulty on to their platform, claiming afterwards that he had been forced to make a left-wing speech. On 10 October, they mounted a completely ineffectual protest against an EDL rally in Manchester; at a similar event three weeks later in Leeds they arranged for a Lib Dem councillor, a member of the ruling council coalition which is leading a vicious struggle against council bin workers on all-out strike, to speak from their platform. In both cases, SWP/UAF stewards actively prevented anyone from getting round police cordons to confront the EDL. Weymann Bennett and the rest of the SWP leadership have shown that they will ally themselves with open racists and reactionaries to prevent any real anti-fascist or anti-racist movement from developing. They have covered up for those in Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow who actively tried to stop Asian youth from confronting the SDL/EDL. These right-wing opportunists have to be confronted and exposed if there is to be a real anti-fascist movement, one which stands clearly against state racism and its apologists.

Statement from Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! Glasgow

[Sam_b]

Seriously, how is the UAF going to attract a working class away from the BNP when they invite the people who are trying to ruin their lives?


UAF did not organise the platform in Scotland, so I can't really comment on what organisation in Leeds is like because to be honest, I couldn't give you a decent answer.


no your lot stood up and said follow us, people in naivety followed you

These things work both ways. Indeed, your section stood up and said follow us - up to a street filled with cops and wagons.


do the UAF/SWP support confrontation with fash?

Where necessary, yes. At our preparation meeting (SWP) we made it clear to comrades that we would be prepared to split off and confront the fascists if there was a situation in the city centre. However, we see no point in small, isolated incidents without a mass movement involved. It was clear the fash wouldn't get far out of the Cambridge, and there were around 2,000 waiting on the Green. We, maybe naively, assumed that the anarchist comrades and spotters would be staying beside the Cambridge.


why did you guys take over the demo by giving speeches and barking orders?

Who do you mean by 'you guys'? We had Waymann Bennett on the platform and that was all.

[harry roberts]

UAF did not organise the platform in Scotland, so I can't really comment on what organisation in Leeds is like because to be honest, I couldn't give you a decent answer.


UAF=Scotland United.
You promoted it and the main man involved Amer Anwar is a member of Solidarity which is closely associate(if not the same) to which party....SWP.
Also you and i both know amer anwar is hevaliy involved with UAF/SWP. UAF/SWP were inovled in promoting and organinsing scotland united and you sir are telling porkys.




These things work both ways. Indeed, your section stood up and said follow us - up to a street filled with cops and wagons.your right the comrades up there should have have forced their opinion and their will....mistakes were made. that mistake being people listened to the UAF/SWP. However, i do not understand why the UAF/SWP did not agree with staying at the pub and preventing the fash from coming out in the street?


Where necessary, yes. At our preparation meeting (SWP) we made it clear to comrades that we would be prepared to split off and confront the fascists if there was a situation in the city centre. However, we see no point in small, isolated incidents without a mass movement involved. It was clear the fash wouldn't get far out of the Cambridge, and there were around 2,000 waiting on the Green. We, maybe naively, assumed that the anarchist comrades and spotters would be staying beside the Cambridge.it sounds like you got your foot in both camps....you'l only have ruck if the police, the politicians and the establishment in general (mass movement?) support you in your health and safety assessed debate with fash?

you talk about smashing nazis, confrontation and millitancy but you do not follow through. Why not simply drop the language and get on with whatever the hell you do. stop pretending your going to confront fash.

some anarchists stayed but also some socialists and non-aligned militant anti-fascists as well stayed. if more people stayed the fash would not have even got the 10 yards that they did get.

Do you not see that if UAF/SWP had said lets stay here and give a speech or lets stay here and party than the fash would not have been allowed out of the pub.


Who do you mean by 'you guys'? We had Waymann Bennett on the platform and that was all.perhaps i was mistaken then.....

new question....why did UAF/SWP want to leave? you said it was because 2000 people were waiting for you..... but could those people not get on with the peace rally while you lot stood shoulder to shoulder against the fash? I honestly don't get it....maybe am simpleton

[Sam_b]

UAF=Scotland United.
You promoted it and the main man involved Amer Anwar is a member of Solidarity which is closely associate(if not the same) to which party....SWP.
Also you and i both know amer anwar is hevaliy involved with UAF/SWP. UAF/SWP were inovled in promoting and organinsing scotland united and you sir are telling porkys.


I'm sorry, but that is the stupidest thing I have heard from anyone in this thread so far. Show your proof that UAF is Scotland United. Why would we want to be sectarian by calling a different demo when there is already a large one planned? It makes absolutely no sense. Of course we promoted a demo to get as many people opposed to racism out as possible! Does this mean it is us? No.


However, i do not understand why the UAF/SWP did not agree with staying at the pub and preventing the fash from coming out in the street?

I've already explained this. Because there were people waiting at the green, and we believe that opposing facism has to be a mass movement. Pushing ourselves into a kettle is fucking stupid.


it sounds like you got your foot in both camps....you'l only have ruck if the police, the politicians and the establishment in general (mass movement?) support you in your health and safety assessed debate with fash?

Sectarian bullshit.

And aye, seeing as you've asked that question three times, I think you are a simpleton, yes.

[harry roberts]

Sectarian bullshit.

And aye, seeing as you've asked that question three times, I think you are a simpleton, yes.

Thats the SWP/UAF trump card accuse everyone who disagrees with them of being sectarian. What happens though when the majority of people though say that your the problem....will you stop calling everyone else secterian and just addmit your all power hungry students who feel guilty cause their mammy and daddy paid for private education and now wana help the 'working class' but don't wana get your hands dirty.

Looking at the histroy of the SWP you can see that itself alone is the problem, from kicking out various diffrent groups including Red Action to their involvment in the split between SSP and Solidarity. There is always one common theme when it comes to the problems facing the left in Britland and its the SWP.

Hopefully though, the rise of the EDL is showing the left in britain that its time to work together and avoid SWP/UAF if you actualy wana get anything done.

regards,
a simpleton

[Sam_b]

yadda yadda, if thats all you can say about the many points i've made.

I'm not responding to your pish, son.

[Hit The North]

you talk about smashing nazis, confrontation and millitancy but you do not follow through. Why not simply drop the language and get on with whatever the hell you do. stop pretending your going to confront fash.



I think there's a loss of meaning in translation. When UAF talk about smashing the fascists they're talking about smashing them politically. When it talks about confronting them, it means organising counter demonstrations whenever they organise. When it talks about militancy it means mobilising more people on the street.

It does not mean organising punch ups in pubs which is the meaning given by antifa. For the UAF this would simply be squadism.

[Patchd]

I think there's a loss of meaning in translation. When UAF talk about smashing the fascists they're talking about smashing them politically. When it talks about confronting them, it means organising counter demonstrations whenever they organise. When it talks about militancy it means mobilising more people on the street.

It does not mean organising punch ups in pubs which is the meaning given by antifa. For the UAF this would simply be squadism.
But it doesn't organise those many people on the streets in a militant manner, in addition, it's liberal messages will also appeal to many liberals who do not necessarily understand or agree with the position that Capitalism creates fascism, so when these people turn up, their stance on any militant action against fascists is one of a pacifist nature.

Those who you consider to be 'squaddist' hold the same position as you do on the issue of anti-fascist organisation, they hold the position that it should be a mass working-class movement, one with economic and political power that has the ability to confront the fascists and stop them from intimidating and attacking communities and groups of people, in a militant manner. The reason Antifa cannot do this is because of it's targeting by the state and by fascists, and it is more heavily targeted than UAF, which works alongside people and groups involved in the state. Although I will have to say that with Antifa having to be so underground, it does attract those who want to participate in militant anti-fascism simply because they're macho and want to believe they're some sort of savior of black and asian communities.

[TRS]

I want to know how the SWP can openly sabotage the anti-fascist and anti war movements, centralising power until people feel distanced, and then, as if that wasn't enough, openly collaborate with the state, and still call themselves a revolutionary organisation.

[Sam_b]

The STW and UAF = SWP shit never gets old does it?

No wonder people feel distanced from the anarchist movement when they have roles or are activists in this organisation, not members of a political party; and yet accused of being sabateurs and SWP bots.


Works both ways.

[Sam_b]

I think Wanted Man's point still stands anyway. If all our demos are terrible state-collaborated failures, make one your fucking selves and don't come.

[TRS]

we do. Except the entire crop of activists in the UK is stolen by the SWP, where they try to bring about a socialist revolution by marching from A-B with megaphones for a few years, when they drop out of activism because they're dispirited. I've seen this happen over and over and over again.

you wonder why there's no mass social movement in the UK, well theres why.

[harry roberts]

I think Wanted Man's point still stands anyway. If all our demos are terrible state-collaborated failures, make one your fucking selves and don't come.


we did organise our own thing in Glasgow then you came along and diluted it of all its militancy....UAF/SWP couldn't decide what they were doing in Glasgow so hijacked GAFA's demo. Lessonse been learned UAF/SWP=useless powerhungry, lieing manipulating twats and we shall avoid them like the plague. Are you glasgow based sam_b? will you be attending the meet tonight?

@Bob the Builder
do you not agree than UAF/SWP should drop the millitant language as its rather confusing. people might think they actualy are anti-fascists and not a liberal pressure group.

[Patchd]

I think Wanted Man's point still stands anyway. If all our demos are terrible state-collaborated failures, make one your fucking selves and don't come.
We've already dealt with this though, many times UAF don't call their own demo unless they realise others are mobilising for it and thus it could be a chance to undermine them. In addition, if fascists are in the same place, and UAF happen to bring their banners and stalls to the same spot that everyone else is standing in, then how could non-UAFers really do something separate when the action looks like it will be in that location?

Not only that, but with the funding your group gets, as well as the membership base it has (largely due to your lack of actual politics, drawing in liberals and Tories), means that UAF can get what they want done quite easily, and they do, poster runs, stalls, flyering etc... but this is exactly what we're saying, a lot of us don't have the means to organise something as big as what UAF can do, and even if we did, I won't be surprised to see UAF pushing their way in to get their stage on front and Bennett on there to speak about how great UAF and the police are. In addition, that seems to be all UAF actually do.

Go on, tell me how UAF are militant anti-fascists, and how do you think the group relates to the working class, which I'd imagine as a socialist you'd agree with me that it is the class with any potential socio-economic power to stop not only Capitalism, but also the extremes of Capitalism like fascism?

[reporter]

good to see some objectivity here rather than the disciples revelling in unsubstantiated anecdotes.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

My thoughts are that name is not names plural
It's the national secretary, and as a group with functioning internal democratic structures we wouldn't allow a statement to be put up on our website if we didn't feel it was representative of the organisation, unless it was accompanied by a clear disclaimer, like "this is one member's view provided for debate purposes only".

there is no evidence to back up this assertion either
Because every article in Socialist Worker is fully footnoted? BRB, posting personal photos of militant anti-fascists so you'll have a satisfactory amount of evidence. Oh, wait, no I'm not, that would be stupid.

and AFed love to consider themselves much more important and effective in combatting fascism.
I don't even know what you're saying here - more important and effective than we actually are, or more important and effective than you lot? And what are you basing this on? Show me an AF publication that claims the AF or AFers will defeat fascism. I believe the working class as a whole, not the AF, UAF, or SWP, will defeat fascism, and one of the things I really like about the AF is that, unlike groups like the UAF/SWP, we don't have an inflated sense of our own importance. I also believe that the rise of fascism will only be stopped if there's a functioning alternative movement to channel working-class anger at New Labour's betrayals and the failure of social democracy into, and so UAF's alliances with Labour politicians can only hinder this.

I'm not defending that at all, where did I say that? Quite simply, I don't believe it actually happened.
So you think there's a slanderous and untrue statement that's been made to discredit your organisation going around, and yet you haven't made any attempt to get it taken down? Why haven't you contacted the AF and asked us to apologise for our lies against you, if that's what you think they are? If you'd like to PM me your telephone number or email address, I'd be happy to put you in touch with the lad who was handed over to the police, so you can explain to him that his experiences didn't actually happen.


I don't know about you but I saw a hell of a lot of people chasing the SDL, not just a handful of Antifa or whatever.
So you admit that it's possible for large numbers of people to engage in militant confrontation (militant confrontation in the sense of the word that non-trots understand, not the very specialised kind of militant confrontation that UAF do where you stand around listening to speeches somewhere where the fascists aren't)? In which case, surely the entire strawman false dichotomy that justifies your pacifism, whereby you either have a hell of a lot of people doing nothing or a few squaddist sectarians chasing the SDL, but never both, entirely collapses on its arse, doesn't it?

You gonna go out against them then? You seem to talk the talk...
I'm sure that the next time the English Defence League march in Australia, he'll be there. ;)

I can't really comment on what organisation in Leeds is like because to be honest, I couldn't give you a decent answer.

Isn't it great being part of a disciplined, centralised national revolutionary organisation with clear channels of communication?


These things work both ways. Indeed, your section stood up and said follow us - up to a street filled with cops and wagons.
So you'll happily smash the EDL off the streets, the day the police stop protecting fascist marches?

It was clear the fash wouldn't get far out of the Cambridge, and there were around 2,000 waiting on the Green. We, maybe naively, assumed that the anarchist comrades and spotters would be staying beside the Cambridge.
Again, is there genuinely no way it'd be possible for comrades outside the pub to communicate with comrades in the Green and let them know there was an urgent situation developing and that they should make it their priority to come there and assist with that? If that's actually what you're saying, it sounds like you really need to develop some basic organisation. Maybe you should try reading the Platform?


Sectarian bullshit.
In response to someone saying it's a bad idea to co-operate with the police, establishment and politicians? What definition of sectarianism are you using here?


Looking at the histroy of the SWP you can see that itself alone is the problem, from kicking out various diffrent groups including Red Action to their involvment in the split between SSP and Solidarity. There is always one common theme when it comes to the problems facing the left in Britland and its the SWP.

To be fair, the SWP have only really been a major problem since the decline of the Communist Party left a power vacuum that they filled. Before that, Stalinism played the role in the workers' movement that the SWP does today.

I think there's a loss of meaning in translation. When UAF talk about smashing the fascists they're talking about smashing them politically. When it talks about confronting them, it means organising counter demonstrations whenever they organise. When it talks about militancy it means mobilising more people on the street.

I would make a 1984 reference here, but it would be far too obvious. So you can confront someone without being anywhere near them and you can show your militancy by silently standing still while someone talks to you and occasionally clapping? That is actually what you mean, right?

The STW and UAF = SWP shit never gets old does it?
The alienation and exploitation = capitalism shit never gets old either, because that's true as well. BTW, there's a delicious irony in a post saying "nope, there's no connection between STW and UAF and the SWP, no-one in STW and UAF but us liberals" followed by a "Socialist Workers Party | Stop the War Coalition" signature.


I think Wanted Man's point still stands anyway. If all our demos are terrible state-collaborated failures, make one your fucking selves and don't come.
A ) What, like when Nottinghamshire Stop the BNP called a demo supported by East Midlands Unison, East Midlands TUC and the rail union RMT, and then the UAF called a different for a nearby location on the same day? (http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/07/404952.html)
B ) I may be misremembering here, but I believe the SWP's rank-and-filist strategy is critical of sell-out union leaders (like Jane Loftus, f'r instance ;)) and the unions' link with the labour party. Does it follow, therefore, that you should all leave the unions because you don't like what their leadership do? Or is it possible to work within a movement while being extremely critical of that movement's leadership?

[Melbourne Lefty]

while I wouldnt say that the SWP is funded by the state, it has done the states dirty work over the years.

How many campaigns have been taken over by the SWP only to fade into obscurity?

That said the point made above is true, if people dont like the way the SWP works they should hold their own demos, yes the SWP has stolen most of the activist minded people but thats no real excuse.

If there is going to be an alternative to the SWP machine then it needs to be started now, even if it is only started small.

I would suggest a non anarchisty name much like the UAF's name to pull in non-politicused people, then just start organising demos, gigs, direct action, whatever.

If the SWP did it it cannot be that hard.:laugh:

I don't like the SWP, but I don't see anyone else putting up the posters or organising the events that would draw ordinary people in like the UAF does.

The "Antifa" mold is great for direct action, but how about starting a rival broad based campaign that writes into its founding statement a commitment to working class politics?

Of course you would have to bar the SWP from coming in and trying to take it over of course.

[ls]

Lots of interesting points in this thread, will concentrate on just one though, which I feel is the most important.


while I wouldnt say that the SWP is funded by the state, it has done the states dirty work over the years.

How many campaigns have been taken over by the SWP only to fade into obscurity?

That said the point made above is true, if people dont like the way the SWP works they should hold their own demos, yes the SWP has stolen most of the activist minded people but thats no real excuse.

I don't think this is fair. If the SWP didn't hold demos that distracted from others then who would complain? Who could complain? No one.

It's not excuse so much as an uneasy fact, I would like the UAF to be a fairly decent organisation, hell, the now pretty much defunct Red Action combated fascism relatively well - especially alongside AFA, even though I've read about instances of fights between anarchists and those of other tendencies within Red Action (just search Libcom to see what I mean).


If there is going to be an alternative to the SWP machine then it needs to be started now, even if it is only started small.

But the tactics of a popular front or a united front don't seem to go that far, this is one case where some loose affinity group style federation could be useful.


The "Antifa" mold is great for direct action, but how about starting a rival broad based campaign that writes into its founding statement a commitment to working class politics?

Of course you would have to bar the SWP from coming in and trying to take it over of course.

A 'rival'? What would that achieve for a start, secondly it's been semi-attempted with the RA/IWCA combo before with a filthy attempt by Searchlight to back them against AFA (google.com/search?q=cache:RoNCb3VdY-wJ:www.redaction.org/anti-fascism/searchlight_editor.html (http://google.com/search?q=cache:RoNCb3VdY-wJ:www.redaction.org/anti-fascism/searchlight_editor.html)), you can even check the now offline RA website and its praising of the IWCA as the "only group capable of challenging the BNP" (http://www.redaction.org/news/jan_03.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20030402210556/http://www.redaction.org/news/jan_03.html)), I'm not so keen on these ideas of sociological white working-class identity politics organisations anymore. They may have some desirable features such as working closely with communities, but then again there are better organisations - there in fact, have been for quite some time IMO. You can even see one of that my first link from RA is text straight from Mark Osborn of AWL, a terrible 'grassroots' group.

What about organisations like Hackney Solidarity Network/and its grouping, Notts stop the BNP, tenants and residents federations and so forth working together, community organisations like that with as many local workers as possible not under any banner except a very general label such as "anti-fascist workers", with nothing against Antifa at all and with praise of their actions such as that that've happened in Codnor (graffitying of that RWB farmer's place). Perhaps that is some kind of 'united front'.. although I don't really see it as a political united front. It could be a truly grassroots workers' united front that does not endorse any particular kind of identity politics, perhaps other than that of being based truly within communities and hopefully, being comprised mostly of proletarians.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

The trots in this thread certainly went quiet all of a sudden. I'd still like to hear an explanation of why they think that the numerous first-hand reports, including those of posters here, about the behaviour of UAF stewards in Leeds, are fabricated.

[TRS]

while I wouldnt say that the SWP is funded by the state, it has done the states dirty work over the years.

How many campaigns have been taken over by the SWP only to fade into obscurity?

That said the point made above is true, if people dont like the way the SWP works they should hold their own demos, yes the SWP has stolen most of the activist minded people but thats no real excuse.

If there is going to be an alternative to the SWP machine then it needs to be started now, even if it is only started small.

I would suggest a non anarchisty name much like the UAF's name to pull in non-politicused people, then just start organising demos, gigs, direct action, whatever.

If the SWP did it it cannot be that hard.:laugh:

I don't like the SWP, but I don't see anyone else putting up the posters or organising the events that would draw ordinary people in like the UAF does.

The "Antifa" mold is great for direct action, but how about starting a rival broad based campaign that writes into its founding statement a commitment to working class politics?

Of course you would have to bar the SWP from coming in and trying to take it over of course.




You have some good points comrade, and indeed some attempt has been made to create broad based action not related to SWP. However, whenever this happens, SWP attempt to crush it. The only place this hasn't happened is Brighton, where the anti militarist "smash EDO" campaign became more powerful and larger that the local "Stop The War Coalition" group, but that's only because, by some fluke, the local SWP group is quite small.

In other places, SWP organise events at the same time and the same day as independant events. Most recently, during the anti NATO protests in edinburgh, SWP stewards told members not the attend the autonomous demo on Friday, and instead only to go on their own demo on saturday, even though it was perfectly possible to go on both.

[Holden Caulfield]

The trots in this thread certainly went quiet all of a sudden. I'd still like to hear an explanation of why they think that the numerous first-hand reports, including those of posters here, about the behaviour of UAF stewards in Leeds, are fabricated.

Trots?
All of us?:p

[The Ungovernable Farce]

You know what I mean...