Being jewish is not being a zionist

[Fiction]

Hello there,

I see a lot of mistakes about the problems between Gaza and Israel.
Many people think that being jewish means you are a zionist that isn't right because there are many religious jews who are against zionism (vayoel moshe).
I'm jewish and agianst zionism and Israel, but most people don't understand me. some people says: '' It's the fault of your own jewish people that there is war in Isreael '' and '' What do you think about the problems in Israel?''

In the media there is always 'Jewish in Israel are zionist and making war'
I think there are more jews against zionism.

What do you think about this problem?

[ZeroNowhere]

I suppose that before this discussion continues, it would make sense to clarify whether you meant 'Jew' as in the religion or the race.

[Fiction]

I'm sorry I meant the race;)

[Jimmie Higgins]

Hello.

I think you are correct. In fact, in the US where most people are deliberately misinformed about the middle east, the first people I met who really explained the historical and political situation to me were a Palestinian-American, and two anti-Zionist jewish Americans.

For the most part though most Americans regardless of religious background (well unless you are Muslim) view the conflict as a case of "religious intolerance equally on both sides". US politicians and pro-zionist groups intentionally conflate the Jewish religion and people with Zionism just as they conflate being an American with loving American foreign policy and empire -- and they are conflated for many of the same reasons.

Unfortunately in the US the decline of the left following WWII left many Jewish people believing that Zionism was the real defense against antisemitism and many Jewish Americans still support Israel for these reasons.

A resurgence of the left should help people to see Israel from a more political perspective rather than some moral or nationalistic perspective. Also it could help many people opposed to antisemitism to reconnect to the vibrant and amazing tradition of Jewish American radicalism from the early 20th century.


I suppose that before this discussion continues, it would make sense to clarify whether you meant 'Jew' as in the religion or the race.I don't see how this is relevant to this discussion.

[OrganisedRandomness]

The conflation between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism (as in being fully against Zionism and criticising Israel is somehow anti-Jew) is completely ridiculous, I even remember that there was a video somewhere of a Zionist calling a rabbi from Naturei Karta an anti-Semite, it's just an attempt to silence the opposition with a complete strawman.

Also, anyone who says that it's somehow the fault of "your people" is a complete moron. Zionism is a 19th century ideology from outside the Palestinian lands, and I don't think I need to mention the age of Judaism to highlight the idiocy behind the conflation.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Not all Jews are zionists....that's old news.

Chomsky, Finkelstein and Zinn are great examples.

[Fiction]

Yeah they are,

But, USA really likes Israel and the Knesset is very conservative and for imperialsim and capitalism... when you are a left-wing or arab or something else you are not right.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Yeah they are,

But, USA really likes Israel and the Knesset is very conservative and for imperialsim and capitalism... when you are a left-wing or arab or something else you are not right.

That's true.

[Sasha]

since you are dutch i recomend you to read the following (free) book: http://eindevanhetjodendom.nl/
its without doubt the best book ever about anti-semitism, zionism, holocaust and israel written from an leftist, anti-zionist jewish viewpoint

de nieuwe geredigeerde versie is te bestellen via hajo's website en vaak te koop bij het kraampje van het palestina komite bij manifestaties.

[9]

without doubt the best book ever about anti-semitism, zionism, holocaust and israel written from an leftist, anti-zionist jewish viewpoint

I don't know what book you linked to, but Zionism in the Age of the Dictators is the best book I've read on the topic, and it fits your description as well. It is also available online: http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/
It's been about a year since I read it, but it is extremely informative. Everyone who hasn't read it definitely should.

In response to the OP, it's a common misconception that Jewish = Zionist and that is unlikely to change so long as Zionism is an active fact.
This (http://www.masada2000.org/shit-list.html) is a funny (not intentionally, of course) website that demonstrates just how similar Zionism and anti-Semitism actually are...

[h0m0revolutionary]

I think there are more jews against zionism.


I don't.

Zionism has to be seen in its context, prior to World War Two zionist philosophy within Judaism was a steadily growing phenomina, but one that still, largley fell on deaf ears. (In spite of having the support of the British Government via the Balfour Declaration)

With the increasing anti-semitism of the Nazi regime however and the endemic anti-jewish hostility of very large sections of Europe (including our own beloved Churchill of course) zionism was given a boost with which it would ultimatly succeed in it's aim of creating a Jewish state of Israel with special rights and privilidges for Jewish people.

Throughout the duration of WW2 then, hundreds of thousands of Jews fled their homes from right accross the world to find refuge in Israel; where they were guarnteed property, land and protection. Those Jews who were opposed to this manourve by the zionists, stayed - and were killed in their millions accordingly.

There were many reasons large sections of jewish populations opposedthe formation of a Jewish State, but one notable reason was theological. Put simply the state of Israel as a homeland for Jews, the Aliyah as it's known, was meant to be a god-graced occurance. Many Orthodox and Haredi jews believed mans interference in this creation was hersey. Others in the reform and Orthodox denominations were non-zionist, but not actively anti-zionist. Many jews, even during this period were passive. It was ultimatly the grusome events of the holocaust that galvanised a change of theology and philosophy of the mainstream Jewish orginisations and churches.

So now we have a situation where zionism has become almost synonamous with zionism. So i'd argue any assertion most jews arent' zionist to some degree is incorrect, although many are passive and a vocal minority are against a state of Israel, many more are in favour of Israel.

Our fight as revolutionary leftists is to expose the state of Israel for the settler colonial state it is. Moreover we must recognise that our natural allies in this fight are Jewish individuals themselves. As far as I can see, there is nothing more anti-semitic than a philosophy that asserts Jews are so alien to any given society, so distinctive and incompatable with mainstream civilisation, that they must seek their own homeland.

We must also realise however that anti-semitism doesn't begin nor end with zionism. Anti-semitism is a very real phenomina and it must be met head on, how else can we win over sections of the Jewish population who have been taken in by the racist and separatist ideology of zionism.

[Yehuda Stern]

I have to agree with HR here. Most Jews are still at least sympathetic to Israel. But I know there's been an increasing tendency for young US Jews to distance themselves from Israel, so that's certainly a positive development. Also, the Moroccan Jewish community recently condemned one Israeli atrocity in Gaza.

[Comrade Gwydion]

I never, ever, thought judaïsm is the same as zionism.
Neither is Islam the same as Jihadism,
or Christianity the same as white supremacy.

Jew's are just people who really like the original version of what christians called the old testament, sometimes even with added stories about angels and mysticism called Kaballah.

Zionists are Jewish version of crusaders, ironically enough they're currently aiming at the same piece of land.


[If I was being ludicrous about it, I didn't mean anything with it. In fact, Kaballah is something I've been wanting to learn about more for some time. It's just, that this issue seems laughablly simple to me: A jew is a jew, a zionist is someone who wants to conquer land/influence/eatbabies in name of judaism.]


Also a funny: there exists a group of Zionists against Israel, who believe they will get their Zion state when judgementday draws near and a messiah (Jezus C. wasn't the messiah, but they do believe that there will come a messiah to men) will assign them their Zion. By founding the state of Israel men have acted is hubris and taken up the messiah's job for themselves, or something along those lines.

[bricolage]

So now we have a situation where zionism has become almost synonamous with zionism.

It has? Yikes ;)

[Dr Mindbender]

I think the supposed synonymity between zionism and judaism proper is something drummed up by all varieties of the right wing as a convienience to their own agenda.

The right of centre does this to tar any criticism of Israel as 'anti-semitism'.

The extreme right does it to tar all jews as being part of the big 'ZOG conspiracy'.

[Fiction]

Thank you for your messages x] I couldn't answer because I had exams (A)

[Thirsty Crow]

There is no doubt - "All Jews are Zionists" formula is a brutal simplification and an example of false logic. As such, it functions as an inherent part of the anti-semitism complex.
However, I have a problem with the terminology itself.
Does "Zionism" mean Jewis statism as in "ethnically and religiously pure" state where only Jews could exercise basic human rights? Or does it presuppose only the advocacy for Jewish self-rule by means of the modern nation-state model?

[xtremerebel]

There is no doubt - "All Jews are Zionists" formula is a brutal simplification and an example of false logic. As such, it functions as an inherent part of the anti-semitism complex.
However, I have a problem with the terminology itself.
Does "Zionism" mean Jewis statism as in "ethnically and religiously pure" state where only Jews could exercise basic human rights? Or does it presuppose only the advocacy for Jewish self-rule by means of the modern nation-state model?

It's one or both. It really depends on who's interpretation or 'version' of zionism you want to impose. So I hope that answers your question, I know lots about zionism cause I've related it to marxism before and I have an arab room mate, and as I expected, he's full of zionist hate :lol:. Can't say I blame him though!

Go to google, and type in 'Jews against Zionism'. Click the first link. Not all jews are zionists!

Many people don't realize it but many problems will cease in the middle east once Israel falls. Israel must fall. And it's zionist leaders be put on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

[Weezer]

Hello there,

I see a lot of mistakes about the problems between Gaza and Israel.
Many people think that being jewish means you are a zionist that isn't right because there are many religious jews who are against zionism (vayoel moshe).
I'm jewish and agianst zionism and Israel, but most people don't understand me. some people says: '' It's the fault of your own jewish people that there is war in Isreael '' and '' What do you think about the problems in Israel?''

In the media there is always 'Jewish in Israel are zionist and making war'
I think there are more jews against zionism.

What do you think about this problem?

I agree, not all Jews are Zionist, but I would say they are at least sympathetic towards Israel.

Having been raised to be reactionary-republican, I have been told to be supportive of Israel, and despite my rejection nearly anything political my parents told me to believe, I would say that I'm still pro-Israel-to an extent.

I condemn their hurtful actions to the Palestinians, and believe what they're doing is horrible, but once Palestine is liberated-I'm afraid that will turn into another Jihadist state, as Hamas promotes Islamism and nationalism.

This whole thing is the Roman's fault.

[h0m0revolutionary]

I condemn their hurtful actions to the Palestinians, and believe what they're doing is horrible, but once Palestine is liberated-I'm afraid that will turn into another Jihadist state, as Hamas promotes Islamism and nationalism.


Sorry that's just awful logic.

You sound just like a regular, blood and theology Zionist. Hamas and reactionary Islamism in Palestine are a symptom of the occupation, not to mention the fact that such groups were funded by Israel throughout the 80's.

Moreover a liberated Palestine cannot come without the backing and complicity of the Israeli working class, at which point hamas and reactionary forces in both countires will have been made redundant and their ideas maginalised.

Jihadist state? *sigh*

[Yehuda Stern]

I agree with HR. Basically, people who at a time when Israel oppresses and murders Palestine can only think of racist doomsday scenarios of a "Jihadist" Palestine only serve the continuation of the Zionist occupation.

[x359594]

The situation in the US is difficult for anti-Zionist Jews. For example, there's something called The Dictionary of Jewish Literacy that has an entry called "Jewish Self-Hatred" which conflates Jewish anti-Zionism with Jewish self-hatred. This is the epitaph flung in the face of anti-Zionist Jews by rabid Zionists like Allen Dershowitz.

Because of this intimidation factor, it's risky for anti-Zionist Jews to express their beliefs. As a personal example, after the 1967 war my father, a mildly observant Jew and mildly pro-Israel, turned vocally anti-Zionist and was reprimanded by our reform rabbi. Word got around in the local community and we suffered accordingly though it was little more than minor discourtesies. Still, it had a chilling effect, and for that reason, in my view, it's hard to tell whether it's most Jews who support Israel or just many Jews. But as Yehuda noted, younger Jews are bolder about speaking out.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Just found this excellent quote (from here (http://www.jewdas.org/2009/11/anti-semitism-in-the-service-of-war-crimes/)):


But what is really at issue are the European Union Monitoring Committee’s Working Definition guidelines on anti-semitism. One example given is ‘Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.’ Even leaving aside the muddleheadedness of the definition, which is what one would expect from a State sponsored attempt to define a political philosophy, the idea that Jewish people form a nation or race (and historically the terms were used interchangeably) was the staple diet of anti-semitism. So we have the irony that the main definition of anti-semitism used by Zionism today is itself anti-semitic!!
As Shlomo Sand, in The Invention of the Jewish People writes:
‘There were times in Europe when anyone who argued that all Jews belong to a nation of alien origin would have been classified at once as an anti-Semite. Nowadays, anyone who dares to suggest that the people known in the world as Jews (as distinct from today’s Jewish Israelis) have never been, and are still not, a people or a nation is immediately denounced as a Jewish hater.’

[The Red Next Door]

The problem is stupidity, people are willing to generalize. A whole group base on a what the bad apples do. Not all jews are zionist, people don't realize that zionism is a political ideology. Not a religion or race. just stupid racial nationalist idea.

[Robocommie]

Zionism is Jewish nationalism, and Jews are no more all Zionist than all Germans are nationalist or all Swedes or Chinese or Afghanis.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Zionism is Jewish nationalism, and Jews are no more all Zionist than all Germans are nationalist or all Swedes or Chinese or Afghanis.

I think that's a mistaken analysis.

Zionism isn't merely Jewish nationalism, it's adherents in Washington are no less sincere in their advocation of zionism just because they aren't Jewish.

And further to that, if, hypothetically, it was not Jews, but Arabs initiating the state of Israel, the cronies in Washington would be no less supportive.

Zionism is a colonial ideology, in fact much of early zionism made no references to nations or nationalism at all, spiritual zionism, as it became known, made reference only to a shared culture of Judaism. Zionism however was hijacked by the notion it has come to embody and that is settler colonialism that doesn't use the indiginous population as reseve labour force, but seeks their removal from what was otherwise their 'homeland'.

This is:
1) Worse than regular nationalism (although if you ask me just a logical extension of it..)
and
2) Not pursued only by Jews.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I think that's a mistaken analysis.

Zionism isn't merely Jewish nationalism, it's adherents in Washington are no less sincere in their advocation of zionism just because they aren't Jewish.
And? Lefty supporters of national liberation movements are no less sincere just because they aren't Irish/Palestinian/whatever. Doesn't stop them being nationalists.

Zionism however was hijacked by the notion it has come to embody and that is settler colonialism that doesn't use the indiginous population as reseve labour force, but seeks their removal from what was otherwise their 'homeland'.

This is:
1) Worse than regular nationalism (although if you ask me just a logical extension of it..)
and
2) Not pursued only by Jews.
I can't see how that's any different from any other colonial nationalism. It's just that Israel came late to the scene, so they're only now carrying out the project that nations like Australia or the US did long ago. And I don't see how having supporters from outside that nation stops it being nationalism.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Oh im not saying it aint nationalism of some form. But that if you term it Jewish Nationalism you're going to get some fiery Jews.

[Robocommie]

Oh im not saying it aint nationalism of some form. But that if you term it Jewish Nationalism you're going to get some fiery Jews.

Fair enough, and you make a good point that early on in the movement there was no objective to make a nation. I think it has certainly become entwined with Israeli nationalism though, at this point.

[Agnapostate]

I've never encountered any legitimate anti-Semite who restricted his/her criticism fo "anti-Zionism"; I've instead heard ruminations about the "ZOG," and the nefarious Jewish plots to stir up racial conflicts between whites and minority races for their own profit.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I've never encountered any legitimate anti-Semite who restricted his/her criticism fo "anti-Zionism"; I've instead heard ruminations about the "ZOG," and the nefarious Jewish plots to stir up racial conflicts between whites and minority races for their own profit.
What's "legitimate anti-Semitism"? :lol: Not that I suspect you of actually thinking it's legitimate, I'm sure it's just a poor choice of words.

[bcbm]

I've never encountered any legitimate anti-Semite who restricted his/her criticism fo "anti-Zionism"; I've instead heard ruminations about the "ZOG," and the nefarious Jewish plots to stir up racial conflicts between whites and minority races for their own profit.

i think the trouble is more anti-zionists who start edging into anti-semitic territory.

some third positionist types also try to mask their anti-semitism by attempting to appear as though they're just criticizing israel, at least in public.

[Agnapostate]

What's "legitimate anti-Semitism"? :lol: Not that I suspect you of actually thinking it's legitimate, I'm sure it's just a poor choice of words.

"Authorized; real, genuine."

"Being exactly as purposed : neither spurious nor false."

So it's a matter of the distinction between real/genuine "anti-Semitism" and something else...

[Drace]

Noam Chomsky is a Jew and his a great opponent of Zionism.