Venezuela to jail violent-game merchants.

[The Something]

National Assembly of Hugo Chavez-led country signs off on bill that would see purveyors of "war" games and toys face up to five years in prison.
A number of states in the US have taken various steps to add restrictions or limit the sale of violent video games. However, thanks largely to the lobbying efforts of the Entertainment Software Association, state legislatures have yet to successfully keep a bill on the law books limiting or penalizing the sale of violent games (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6210028.html).
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2009/308/Mercs2_86237_embed.jpg (http://www.gamespot.com/images/6239252/venezuela-to-jail-violent-game-merchants-/1/?path=2009%2F308%2FMercs2_86237_screen.jpg&caption=Violent-game%2Bmerchants%2Bmay%2Bwant%2Bto%2Bget%2Bout%2Bo f%2BVenezuela%2BASAP.&blog=1&cvr=47o.)Violent-game merchants may want to get out of Venezuela ASAP. (http://www.gamespot.com/images/6239252/venezuela-to-jail-violent-game-merchants-/1/?path=2009%2F308%2FMercs2_86237_screen.jpg&caption=Violent-game%2Bmerchants%2Bmay%2Bwant%2Bto%2Bget%2Bout%2Bo f%2BVenezuela%2BASAP.&blog=1&cvr=47o.)

Venezuela, however, is a different story. The Agence France-Presse (http://bit.ly/Mg9wE) reports that the National Assembly of Venezuela approved a law last week that would punish merchants who sell violent games with up to five years in prison. The law, which also outlaws the sale of toy weapons, is reportedly intended to "prevent the manufacture, importation, distribution, sale, rental and use of videos, games and war toys of a violent nature."
According to the report, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, a vocal opponent of US foreign policy, has promoted the use of more traditional games, such as yo-yos. The AFP reports that President Chavez has previously railed against games and other electronic toys, saying they promote "egoism, individualism, and violence."
The Venezuelan government has previously taken issue with violent games, particularly Pandemic Studios' Mercenaries 2: World in Flames. In 2006, backers of President Chavez decried Electronic Arts and Pandemic's Mercenaries 2 (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6151849.html), a game set in Venezuela where players take on "a power-hungry tyrant" in control of the country. At the time, it was decried by one legislator as "a justification for imperial aggression."
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6239252.html?tag=latestheadlines;title;3

[Arse-Ropes and Revolution]

I support this measure, but he should also require every game system sold to include a mod chip.

[KC]

Edit

[Bright Banana Beard]

Dumb.

Now let's see the "Marxist-Leninists" come here and support this. :laugh:


What about Trotskyist with Hands Off Venezuela IMT?

[Yazman]

Chavez can go to hell for this measure.

[KC]

Edit

[Davie zepeda]

Is this pity shit that serious? Oh well at least we won't have as much psychos getting idea's from these sick fucks. I don't see it as a really bad thing they still get other games, they just they won't get big gay tony's Grand theft auto no more lol ahhahaah Fucking rock star and there bourgeoisie ideology,glorification of the streets kiss my ass mother fuckers Lol

[KC]

Edit

[Wanted Man]

Who's next?

Not it. But I'm sure there are plenty of idiots on the left who uncritically support Chavez.

[fatpanda]

Mercenaries 2 should be banned cause the games content is racist and supports invasion of Venezuela, as should Americas Army and all other games filled with disgusting propaganda.
And stop coming with your lame "chill out ,its just a game..." line

I mean , would you guys support legalization of a game like "KZ Manager" or "Gypsy Killer"?!

But if the Government tries to ban all games that contain fictional violent content for instance like GTA,DOOM,Quake or Counterstrike... well then thats ridicolous and very bad in my opinion!

[Monkey Riding Dragon]

Look folks, I'm not a big "censorship" person, but I can't help finding this on the whole matter a petty issue that people here are blowing up into something enormous. If this to you is the biggest issue out there, you clearly lack perspective. That Venezuela is by no means undergoing a "socialist revolution" as Mr. Chavez claims should be beyond doubt. Neither should there be a ban on any media based solely on the criteria that it contains violent content. But no, I'm not going to come out praising and defending the ostensible genius of say games like GTA or Mercenaries 2, etc., which it seems to me is precisely the purpose of this thread. I don't know about the rest of you, but these sorts of works are completely opposed to everything I stand for personally. I'm a communist, not a liberal. I'm not a moral bankrupt.

[Davie zepeda]

In all honesty if u love killing virtual people then something is wrong with you un like most of you on this i don't bash no people over pity politics. Plus communism is economics not moral values, i just don't think children should be indoctrinated to think it's ok to beat his comrade up because he saw it on a game, Plus i can vouch games have done nothing for me but made me stupider and take precious time in my life going to find girls,talking and making new friends. As for chavez i support him not because someone told me this or that but from what Ive seen in my nation and in Latin America you can hate but you will never never take away what he's done for Latin America Empowering the working class the revolution will not come from here but the third world as it has always been if it threw state capitalism to reach a industrial state or threw socialist policy we must build the industrial power to feed the masses if not we will fade like all revolutions who have failed to meet the needs of it's people in history......

[Radical]

Chavez is exactly right when he says Video Games promote and influence Individualism - The most sickening thing

[FreeFocus]

This is a ridiculous measure. There's no real justification for this, and apparently the Venezuelan national assembly is just full of liberals for passing this garbage. Violent video games are not a cause of violence, individualism or anything else. Even in a socialist society, I would hope that such games and media remain, as they would provide a different look on the world. Not to mention, yeah, sometimes in the past I was just pissed as fuck and hopped on GTA San Andreas or GTA IV. I don't play video games much anymore, but they are sometimes cathartic.

Censorship is stupid. They ought to focus on things that actually cause real violence and individualism, like, I don't know, capitalism?

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Good to hear the state is encouraging worker militancy! [/sarcasm]

Toy guns? seriously?

Fuck Venezuela

[Comrade Anarchist]

He does good and we warm up to him and then he starts restricting freedoms. It's time for chomsky to go back and have a quick chat with chavez.

[Saorsa]

Stupid move. But Venezuela is still an open book, and could end with either workers power or a carnival of reaction. This isn't because of Chavez alone, this is because the workers have had a taste of power and aren't going to be keen on letting go of it.

[Emre]

It's time for chomsky to go back and have a quick chat with chavez.Is this the same Chomsky who recently praised the Turkish state and the Good Friday Agreement in Ireland? :confused:

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Who cares if the country is one of the most progressive in the world...they banned video games! Lets just pretend we all know about Venezuelan culture and that the majority of the citizens approve of these games, while the evil state is imposing it's draconian measures on the working class, delivering the final blow to any semblance of popular control.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Another freedom hating measure by a reactionary government was the banning of games of chance by the so-called progressive Paris Commune.

"it is immoral and against all justice that men should be able to suppress the little well-being that wages can bring to the family hearth by the turn of a die and without difficulty, and whereas gaming leads to all vices, even to crime."

While some have called it a workers state, this is obvious proof to the contrary.

[The Something]

Really? There are people defending this act of authoritarian idiocy? I was a supporter of Chavez in a "I like his ideals" sort of way... mind you I winced every time he used fiery rhetoric about starting war with (insert U.S. friendly country here).

But this, this is something so far beyond it. People on this forum should vehemently oppose such actions as this. Chavez supported this, whether he actually passed the law or not is not the point what-so ever.

IMPORTANT POINT HERE: This law does not ban the sale to "minors" like in our country... or many countries for that matter, it's banned period. "Oh you're 30, mature and want to play dungeons and dragons? Nope sorry it promotes "war-like tendencies"". The "authorities" have discretion over choosing what games are violent and what isn't. And for Christ sake toy guns? Like as in super soakers I played with as a kid? Or the kind I played cops and robbers with? I really don't think I even need to go into how stupid and wrong that is.

Well guess what, so do movies, books and music. People here agreeing that "oh well I'm gonna generalize everything about video games based on the fact that Hugo Chavez doesn't like them" is fucking stupid. I'm sorry, but it is. Just because someone plays a violent game does not mean all these sort of "they're a loner, will be more violent and so on..."

Games like 'Half Life:2' are an art-form. You feel something when you play them.........just like a movie, book, ect..... There are plenty of trash ga,es out there that are violent and pointless (mercenaries 2 comes to mind as stated) but that doesn't mean you should go and say "BAN THEM ALL"
Glen Beck has written more horrendous books than I can count. Should Venezuela ban all books now?

Lastly: Moderation. The system we have in America is far from perfect. It most certainly has room for improvement, but it gives the people who count discretion: Parents. No not all parents make right decisions, but we have to give them the benefit of the doubt in knowing when their children are ready and able to handle "violent" games. Clearly marking a game as M- For mature and requiring you be over 17 is a start.

Please Mr. Chavez rethink your dinosaur age position on modern entertainment. A yo-yo isn't quite in right now.

[The Red Next Door]

The bad guy in the game is a rich piece of shit fascists and you also do favors for a revolutionary group in the game.

[The Red Next Door]

Chavez is exactly right when he says Video Games promote and influence Individualism - The most sickening thing
What is wrong with individualism?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Another freedom hating measure by a reactionary government was the banning of games of chance by the so-called progressive Paris Commune.

"it is immoral and against all justice that men should be able to suppress the little well-being that wages can bring to the family hearth by the turn of a die and without difficulty, and whereas gaming leads to all vices, even to crime."

While some have called it a workers state, this is obvious proof to the contrary.

Huh? You're calling the Paris Commune reactionary?

A number of leftists have issues with certain cultural aspects. I for one would advocate the banning of producing and/or selling Che T-shirts right after a revolution.

It may be a leftover of the kind of "moral politics" practiced by conservatives and populists, but the DOTP isn't without defects.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Huh? You're calling the Paris Commune reactionary?

I...think you missed the point of that post.

[Dimentio]

Social conservatism seems to go hand in hand with progressive economic features of the PSUV. And that is the nicest thing I could say given this situation.

[Spawn of Stalin]

What is wrong with individualism?
Is this a joke?

[Comrade B]

Anyone have a better source for this... than a game review site?
I find that gamers like to panic on this one... maybe a game was banned or something like that... I kind of doubt banning the sale of 'violent' video games in general... being that that is a very vague term...

[Glenn Beck]

Good to hear the state is encouraging worker militancy! [/sarcasm]

Toy guns? seriously?

Fuck Venezuela

No, fuck you, you chauvinist liberal piece of shit.

[#FF0000]

The comments on Gamespot alone have me supporting this measure.

EDIT: But yeah it's still a dumb law.

[cb9's_unity]

It's clear that the whole Chavez movement is becoming tinged with conservatism/authoritarianism. Chavez is going to need to stop bullshit like this (and start more pro-worker reforms) if he still wants to be considered any sort of progressive force in the area.

[Glenn Beck]

Given that the source is Gamespot whose only source seems to be a short AFP article, and the Family Guy and Simpsons "banning" controversies are fresh in my mind, I am skeptical that this story is playing out exactly as reported.

Be that as it may, of more concern to me is the attitudes betrayed to people in this thread, ridiculous shit like "fuck Venezuela", or completely disclaiming any progressive qualities of a government whose elected assembly might *gasp* happen to pass a bad law. Passing bad laws on occassion, thats pretty much what national legislatures do. You are all revealing that you believe deep down that everything the US media says about Venezuela is true; that it's a dictatorship where every decision is passed down from the big scary Chavez himself. On liberal democratic terms Venezuela functions better than the USA, if the law turns out to be unenforceable or deeply unpopular I highly doubt that the PSUV is going to prioritize its enforcement over their poll numbers. Yes, that's right, they have to worry about getting re-elected, and people actually vote in Venezuela. The more you know.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

No, fuck you, you chauvinist liberal piece of shit.

How does that constitute liberal chauvinism?

[khad]

I doubt a lot of people even give a shit about this issue, and even if the Venezuelan people vote to keep a law such as this (the jury is still out whether or not gamespot is just doing an ass pull), I wouldn't have a problem with it.

As I said in the family guy thread, this First World indignation is a sight to behold. A veritable jihad for video games, which, btw, are more often than not completely reactionary for having been made in the United States. As pointed out in the thread, so much of the US entertainment media is rooted in the militarism of the American Empire.

Furthermore, that someone tries to claim a shoot-em-up like Half-Life 2 as "art" just shows how far our very notion of art has degenerated.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Chavez is exactly right when he says Video Games promote and influence Individualism - The most sickening thing

Really, how do video games promote individualism? It is the context of which they are produced that makes them what they are. Still I would like to know how you think they do.

Video games are merely for recreation and to classify video games themselves as individualist is inaccurate.

[khad]

Really, how do video games promote individualism? It is the context of which they are produced that makes them what they are. Still I would like to know how you think they do.

Video games are merely for recreation and to classify video games themselves as individualist is inaccurate.
Ok, they don't promote individualism. What they do promote is imperialist terrorism.

[Partizani]

If anyone here has ever played Rainbow Six: 3 on consoles the plot is VERY anti-chavez. Your goal is to kill the Venezuelan president (not named chavez for obviously reasons) who is being funded by islamic fundamentalists (no surprise there) and eventually cuts off the US Oil supply and to top it off the character you play is called 'Ding Chavez'.

The banning of such violent games by Chavez shouldn't effect the majority of Venezuelans as poverty among the masses still isnt eradicated and most cant afford a TV let alone consoles or computers.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Ok, they don't promote individualism. What they do promote is imperialist terrorism.

Yes I would agree that some war games promote imperialist terrorism and there is no place for them in a civilised society. But not all video games do promote imperialism. And in general I would say they are merely recreational and should be allowed to exist.

[The Author]

Learning to paint a portrait? Reading a new book? Going for a nature hike?

No!!!

I'd rather spend all my time on Grove Street dressed in Green, shooting Ballas and Vagos thugs, tagging up turf, and slitting people's throats for cash! Grove 4 Life Sucka!

:rolleyes:

There is a life beyond video games, especially violent ones. It's not exactly something like Super Mario Bros. which is being banned here. It's the thoughtless, unoriginal shit that consist of shoot-em-ups and virtual "Scarface" style get-rich-quick themed games that are getting the axe. Good riddance. Now if they could only ban cell phones as well...

[Agnapostate]

Venezuela has traditionally been a rather libertarian country when it comes to political speech, which has been illustrated in the past few years with Hugo Chavez as president and the corporate media not hiding their revilement of him. This, however...


Another freedom hating measure by a reactionary government was the banning of games of chance by the so-called progressive Paris Commune.

That's not completely analogous, since there would be endangerment of the welfare of working-class families in the case of such games in the Paris Commune, while, as mentioned, the same prospect simply isn't present in the case of the Venezuelan working class's usage of video games. That said, dispute of the economic progressivism of the Bolivarian Republic isn't possible with reference to this story...it's the social progressivism of the nation that's subject to attack.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Learning to paint a portrait? Reading a new book? Going for a nature hike?

No!!!

I'd rather spend all my time on Grove Street dressed in Green, shooting Ballas and Vagos thugs, tagging up turf, and slitting people's throats for cash! Grove 4 Life Sucka!

:rolleyes:

There is a life beyond video games, especially violent ones. It's not exactly something like Super Mario Bros. which is being banned here. It's the thoughtless, unoriginal shit that consist of shoot-em-ups and virtual "Scarface" style get-rich-quick themed games that are getting the axe. Good riddance. Now if they could only ban cell phones as well...

It's not the games that are the problem. It is the society that promotes such values. If someone likes video games and wants to play them who are you to say they can't?

[Uncle Hank]

It wouldn't be a big deal to me- losing these games; however, it sets a ridiculous standard.

Excuse me, it seems Stranger Than Paradise has made my point for me while I was typing. Good thing I check the thread before I post I guess. :lol: Just to reiterate what he said, who are we/you to say what people put in their entertainment center for entertainment? We can't force people to like reading or nature walks more than violent video games as much as we can grow wings and fly. It's the environment that propagates and peddles this type of shit that's the problem. Just all in all a very asinine premise and would cause more trouble than it's worth. Also what exactly does this do to benefit society at large? :confused: Nothing far as I can tell.

That being said like others I would much appreciate another source.

[vulemdal]

I'm a fan of video games in general, but I haven't played the game that likely caused this ban to pass in Venezuela. I'm sure it painted the situation in Venezuela in an unfairly negative light much in the same way that the Venezuelan government was already very familiar with as it relates to certain elements of their own media. Given the very recent experience with their media and its role in the coup attempt, it is not very surprising to me that this government would act in some way to limit the amount of violence (fictional or not) directed towards them.

Yes, it is just a video game. Freedom of speech right? But you could say the same thing about the right-wing media outlets in Venezuela attempting to create a favorable situation for a coup by showing what appears to be Chavez supporters shooting at innocent Caracas protesters, among other things. (If you are interested, please see a documentary titled "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised").

I don't like the idea of banning violent games just because they are violent, but I'm also not for reshaping reality... especially so as to better suit a specific minority's interests. The makers of this crappy game probably weren't even meaning to make an overtly political statement about Venezuela... they were probably just following the status quo and repeating what it was they constantly hear from the media and our own government here in the US all the while thinking it would make for a sellable game. But there is the main problem: the status quo is to negatively label a democratically-elected government with historically wide popular support from it's own people as a dictatorship. As if Venezuela didn't have enough to worry about with attempting to overthrow the capitalist powers in the country, private right-wing media outlets inciting coups, and neighboring countries sending in paramilitaries and handing over sovereignty and military bases to the US, now some game company decides to make money off the idea that Venezuela is a brutal dictatorship that resembles whatever it is that goes on in their game. If the argument of morality wasn't enough to restrict the sale of this violent game (which isn't a completely foreign idea to even the US), then the sitation outlined above being added in to the equation would be.

[ls]

Who really cares is the main question about this story? It should be trashed, should've been trashed already, what a worthless topic.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Mercenaries 2 should be banned cause the games content is racist and supports invasion of Venezuela, as should Americas Army and all other games filled with disgusting propaganda.
And stop coming with your lame "chill out ,its just a game..." line

I mean , would you guys support legalization of a game like "KZ Manager" or "Gypsy Killer"?!



Yes.

Plenty of video games demean different races (and women too - no, I'm not talking about Mario having to save the princess in a medieval-esque setting, but the caveat of breasts posted on cover boxes). That isn't grounds for banning these particular games but changing the culture which allows such elements to be accepted.

[Dr Mindbender]

Mercenaries 2 should be banned cause the games content is racist and supports invasion of Venezuela,

More kneejerk bullshit from someone who hasnt played the game. :rolleyes:

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Everyone needs to calm the hell down and put this into perspective. We're talking about video games here. Video games. Not exactly the most important thing in the world. Most workers in Venezuela don't even have consoles or computers, you know. The impact of this measure will be almost entirely limited to rich bourgeois kids.

If you think this measure is in any way important, you seriously need to get your priorities in order.

[Agnapostate]

Most progressives have a healthy respect for civil libertarianism.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Civil libertarianism does not necessarily mean allowing the distribution of propaganda (and yes, it is propaganda) in the form of video games. Now I enjoy video games, some violent ones too, but when it comes to games like America's Army, or the two Mercenaries games, both of which have been set in countries with socialist tendencies, Venezuela and the DPRK, yes, they absolutely should be banned, just as Sky and Fox News should be banned. The freedom to form your own opinion is fine, the freedom to lie and stir up international relations is not, because that's the shit that ends up killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Vietnam, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan, and everywhere else, killing people has nothing to do with liberty. There are a lot of good games out there that do not revolve around overthrowing socialism, I personally would recommend the Red Faction series, in which the player takes control of a heroic miner who fights for the rights of his fellow proletarians.

[pranabjyoti]

We can not tolerate preaching of "lie" and "false information" in the the name "civil liberty/freedom of speech". I personally have no problem with "freedom of speech", but I strongly object when "lie" and "false information" have been spread in the name of "freedom of speech". To have a right or freedom, one should have a duty. And the duty of the advocates of "freedom of speech" is that NO FALSE INFORMATION HAVE BEEN SPREAD. A LIAR IS NOT CAPABLE TO HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Civil libertarianism does not necessarily mean allowing the distribution of propaganda (and yes, it is propaganda) in the form of video games. Now I enjoy video games, some violent ones too, but when it comes to games like America's Army, or the two Mercenaries games, both of which have been set in countries with socialist tendencies, Venezuela and the DPRK, yes, they absolutely should be banned, just as Sky and Fox News should be banned. The freedom to form your own opinion is fine, the freedom to lie and stir up international relations is not, because that's the shit that ends up killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Vietnam, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan, and everywhere else, killing people has nothing to do with liberty. There are a lot of good games out there that do not revolve around overthrowing socialism,

It is not the government's responcibility to decide which video games would be acceptable and which would not. The funny thing about this thread is that if the US banned anti-capitalist video games, you would throw a shit storm. This is only being passed off as acceptable because Chavez's party has done it.

[pranabjyoti]

It is not the government's responcibility to decide which video games would be acceptable and which would not. The funny thing about this thread is that if the US banned anti-capitalist video games, you would throw a shit storm. This is only being passed off as acceptable because Chavez's party has done it.

Certainly, we are part of proletariat and will support whatever is pro-proletariat and will support too the preventive measures taken against pro-capitalist/imperialist acts.

[Spawn of Stalin]

It is not the government's responcibility to decide which video games would be acceptable and which would not. The funny thing about this thread is that if the US banned anti-capitalist video games, you would throw a shit storm. This is only being passed off as acceptable because Chavez's party has done it.

If it isn't the elected government's responsibility then whose is it? I support and believe in the state as long as it serves the interests of the proletariat, the government on Venezuela has made a decision on behalf of the people who put them there. And yes, of course I am not going to support the banning of an anti-capitalist video game, is there a problem with that? In very simple terms, anti-capitalism is good, capitalism is bad, so of I would "throw a shit storm" if an anti-capitalist video game was banned, I'm an anti-capitalist. There is no logic in your argument, I'm not going to take an independent stance on any issue just to be bipartisan, naturally I am going to swing towards socialism on any issue, does that make sense to you? You want me to sympathise with capitalism? No thanks. And if you really think I should you have no right to call yourself a socialist, that goes to anyone who thinks that the imperialists should be allowed to spread their reactionary propaganda across Latin America. Free speech for imperialists? Fuck off.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Certainly, we are part of proletariat and will support whatever is pro-proletariat and will support too the preventive measures taken against pro-capitalist/imperialist acts.

If censorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Soviet_Union) is your pro-proletariat position, I want no part of it. The "revolution" you seek - where "enemies" of socialism are completely silenced through the state's strong arm - should fail.


There is no logic in your argument, I'm not going to take an independent stance on any issue just to be bipartisan, naturally I am going to swing towards socialism on any issue, does that make sense to you? You want me to sympathise with capitalism? No thanks.Badgering. The biggest stimulus of sympathy is censorship, because then others have a heightened awareness of something not being acceptable by the norm, and they seek it out. The fact leftists aren't aware of this despite consistently campaigning against the war on drugs is utterly shameful.

I don't want anyone to seek sympathy with pro-lifers, either, but I will not oppressively control their ability to produce and transmit anti-abortion pamphlets for three reasons: 1.) free discussion is healthy in some of the most imaginative ways 2.) banning something only creates a reaction against the censor and 3.) history demonstrates that censorship (no matter how "well thought out") will lead to worse consequences and more censorship.

Are we going to ban Milton Friedman's works just to satisfy your desire for a single-viewpoint society?

Some of these posts are based on the ludicrous position that a game where you kill Venezuelans and bring anarchy to the country is actually going to enforce imperialist thought in Venezuela. Let's just think about that for a second, and perhaps some will start to realize the fault in that logic.

[pranabjyoti]

If censorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Soviet_Union) is your pro-proletariat position, I want no part of it. The "revolution" you seek - where "enemies" of socialism are completely silenced through the state's strong arm - should fail.
If you let them spread their poison, it will fell far ahead of time.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Badgering. The biggest stimulus of sympathy is censorship, because then others have a heightened awareness of something not being acceptable by the norm, and they seek it out. The fact leftists aren't aware of this despite consistently campaigning against the war on drugs is utterly shameful.

I don't want anyone to seek sympathy with pro-lifers, either, but I will not oppressively control their ability to produce and transmit anti-abortion pamphlets for three reasons: 1.) free discussion is healthy in some of the most imaginative ways 2.) banning something only creates a reaction against the censor and 3.) history demonstrates that censorship (no matter how "well thought out") will lead to worse consequences and more censorship.

Are we going to ban Milton Friedman's works just to satisfy your desire for a single-viewpoint society?

Some of these posts are based on the ludicrous position that a game where you kill Venezuelans and bring anarchy to the country is actually going to enforce imperialist thought in Venezuela. Let's just think about that for a second, and perhaps some will start to realize the fault in that logic.

What's the alternative? Let the imperialists do and say as they please? Why should we? If it's just to keep the "do what you like, when you like" libertarian types happy then I would take great pleasure in muffling the voice of reaction. Liberty is important, but destroying capitalists and their imperialist agendas is always more important. Freedom isn't just about doing as you please, it's about freedom from things too, I would happily forfeit the freedom of some video game publisher, so that the Venezuelan people can be free from imperialist propaganda, all of which is based on lies, but of course, imperialists should be allowed to lie in order to push their twisted ideologies on the proletariat shouldn't they? It's called freedom. Is that what freedom is really about? Because if it is I will be moving to some far away dictatorship very shortly, in search of a better life.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Lets get on with the imperialist conquest already (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-robertson-_x.htm)!

Was this supposed to be relevant or something?

Yes, I'm obviously Pat Robertson, the huge anarcho-communist. :rolleyes:

[Prairie Fire]

Now let's see the "Marxist-Leninists" come here and support this. http://www.revleft.com/vb/venezuela-jail-violent-p1590066/revleft/smilies2/lol.gif


Why would we do that?

[mykittyhasaboner]

It's kind of funny that in Mercenaries 2, you can choose which factions to side with, so it's kind of hard to say that this game is "anti-Chavez" or whatever, it largely has nothing to do with real politics. You can side with Marxist guerrillas, and China, then subsequently defeat the private paramilitaries and US led invasion force. Kind of ironic imo.

The point is this is largely insignificant, and the amount of inane, knee-jerk responses in this thread just goes to show how shallow some people's politics are.

That said, the game is fun for a while, but technically speaking, as far as the engine goes it is a horrible piece of shit.

[black magick hustla]

maaaan. all the stalinists wont be able to play red alert 2. chavez you should say good bye to a good chunk of your most militant supporters

[mykittyhasaboner]

A veritable jihad for video games, which, btw, are more often than not completely reactionary for having been made in the United States. As pointed out in the thread, so much of the US entertainment media is rooted in the militarism of the American Empire.True but in this case it can easily be disproven that the game is solely meant to uphold reactionary politics such as support for the US imperialist military. You can choose to play a reactionary role in the game, but you can choose not to as well.


Furthermore, that someone tries to claim a shoot-em-up like Half-Life 2 as "art" just shows how far our very notion of art has degenerated.While the notion of art may have "degenerated" for some, I never knew of any kind of standard which qualifies a piece of creative work as "art" or "not art". Someone drew the concept art for Half-Life 2, created a fictional storyline, and game designers made the engine and gameplay for the game. How that isn't art, well I really don't know. Art generally isn't reliant on human need, and is made for entertainment and/or some from of pleasure, it's a matter of taste.

[Tatarin]

Big deal. Seriously, anyone, if there ever will be such a game, imagine this situation:

The plot resolves around a country in where the ruling class, a group of wealthy businessmen, are hyperexploiting the workers. The police are brutal, and the propaganda screams of how democratic that country is. Your goal, when you wake up, is to transform that country into a state where people share all the stuff. But in order to do so, you must violently overthrow this group of businessmen. The main enemy of the game are police units, hired mercenaries, traitors and spies, as well as one or another (here I go again) robot. The bosses are the businessmen.

Tell me, is there such a game today?

Tell me again, if any distributor manages to, where this game would be sold in the US, and in which states this game would be banned.

[Yazman]

I can't support the Venezuelan government while this measure is in place. Its blatant violation of basic rights, not to mention the government has no place telling its citizens what they can and can't watch, play, or read.

Disgusting censorship in action.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

True but in this case it can easily be disproven that the game is solely meant to uphold reactionary politics such as support for the US imperialist military. You can choose to play a reactionary role in the game, but you can choose not to as well.

While the notion of art may have "degenerated" for some, I never knew of any kind of standard which qualifies a piece of creative work as "art" or "not art". Someone drew the concept art for Half-Life 2, created a fictional storyline, and game designers made the engine and gameplay for the game. How that isn't art, well I really don't know. Art generally isn't reliant on human need, and is made for entertainment and/or some from of pleasure, it's a matter of taste.

Not that it's all too relevant, but Half Life appears to me as more artistic than 80% of the crap passed off as "literature." (Da Vinci Code, Twilight)

In fact I think the stigma attributed to video games about not being "art" in the same way film, books, or crafts are "art" is contributing to the defense of this particular censorship example. If the Venezuelan government had banned a book, for example, there would probably be more opponents. As a side note, I think the Sega Dreamcast (Shenmue) should be displayed in museums, ha.

The fact you can play on both sides is an interesting one. I don't recall ever being allowed to play on the side of Nazis or the Japanese in WW2 games. And before someone loses their fecal matter, I'm not comparing Chavez to Hitler.

[Dr Mindbender]

It's kind of funny that in Mercenaries 2, you can choose which factions to side with, so it's kind of hard to say that this game is "anti-Chavez" .

Not only that, the game isnt even about fucking Chavez. You fight against some billionaire oil tycoon called Ramon Solano that takes over the country. So if anything, the game is anti capitalist.

Plus you get to fight for the communists like MKHAB said.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Not only that, the game isnt even about fucking Chavez. You fight against some billionaire oil tycoon called Ramon Solano that takes over the country. So if anything, the game is anti capitalist.

Plus you get to fight for the communists like MKHAB said.

True, but I wouldn't say the game is anti-capitalist. You don't really fight Solano because hes a capitalist billionaire prick, it's because he double crosses the main character (which ever one you pick). But yeah it's certainly not about Chavez or any kind of contemporary Venezuelan politics.

[Guerrilla22]

I think Venezeulans will be able to get by without certain video games.

http://media.mlive.com/grpress/news_impact/photo/modern-warfare-2-launch-cagjpg-660664199bd02737_large.jpg

[Bright Banana Beard]

This doesn't affect the population either way. Only the petit-bourgeoise or bourgeoise able to afford this kind of game legally, which I couldn't give the fuck at all. What productivity does the violent video game give?

[What Would Durruti Do?]

This doesn't affect the population either way. Only the petit-bourgeoise or bourgeoise able to afford this kind of game legally, which I couldn't give the fuck at all. What productivity does the violent video game give?

a lot actually, especially useful productivity for so-called "revolutionaries" who otherwise wouldn't see any kind of even simulated combat situations

not that productivity should be the only thing that matters anyway, which is the whole problem to begin with

[Jazzratt]

The fact you can play on both sides is an interesting one. I don't recall ever being allowed to play on the side of Nazis or the Japanese in WW2 games. And before someone loses their fecal matter, I'm not comparing Chavez to Hitler.


I'm trying desperately to think of a WW2 game which doesn't allow you to play as one of the axis forces - even if only in multiplayer mode I think they all do. Every strategy game does, certainly.

That's the thing though. a game in which you can play a nazi isn't going to turn you into a nazi, I'm fairly sure that there has been no spike in neo-nazis thanks to the endless torrent of world war two games that has been going since christ knows when. Anyone with an ounce of nouse and a basic ability to seperate fantasy from reality is able to seperate their real life actions from what they do in computer games.

I, for a fairly pertinent example, have played the game "Colonization" (1994 version) since I was old enough to understand what the fuck was happening. It didn't make me any more inclined to support colonisation and colonialism despite the entire fucking game being about rocking over to the new world and getting your colony on.

Perhaps, though, I've only been presenting games that deal with historical evils and it's harder to accept them anyway. The thing is though that a lot of games, even ones that tout their "realism" have some seriously fucking cartoonish features. In many of these games the bad guys are just a top hat and pencil thin moustasche away from tying women to railway tracks because a modern audience, one capable of understanding moral nuance, does not want a foe they can sympathise with and that rules out any actually extant group or at least a realistic portrayl of such.

If a violent game influences your behaviour to the point that you would uncritically support the behaviours presented in it then you should seriously consider having yourself gelded because you're doing nothing for humanity as a whole.

[Revy]

Not only that, the game isnt even about fucking Chavez. You fight against some billionaire oil tycoon called Ramon Solano that takes over the country. So if anything, the game is anti capitalist.

Plus you get to fight for the communists like MKHAB said.

It's about an invasion of Venezuela. That's what makes the game outrageous, especially with all the rhetoric about Venezuela. There's no way Venezuela was chosen randomly as the setting.



The fact you can play on both sides is an interesting one. I don't recall ever being allowed to play on the side of Nazis or the Japanese in WW2 games.

Have you ever played Battlefield 1942 (or at least the recent Battlefield 1943)?

[Dr Mindbender]

It's about an invasion of Venezuela. That's what makes the game outrageous, especially with all the rhetoric about Venezuela. There's no way Venezuela was chosen randomly as the setting.



Well unfortunately for games designers, they have the task of making games believable while at the same time offensive to the least amount of people. Would you rather they'd set the game in Iraq or Afghanistan? For the benefit of those who havent played it, Mercenaries 2 does not glorify the idea of overthrowing Chavez or invading Venezuela under that pretence. Not that youd call a band of 3 mercenaries an invasion under any context, if you actually follow the game narrative.

TBH i find it pretty ironic that people are only now complaining about the sequel. The original Mercenaries portrayed a coalition invasion of North Korea and they didnt even bother to use a fictional government that time.
I still think both games are pretty awesome though and i still own both.

It seems to me lefties are getting more wound up at the fact that someone would dare to portray an action game in a country like Venezuela with its supposedly progressive government rather than actually bother to see what its about. It reminds me of those religious nutjobs that complained about life of Brian.

[Yazman]

maaaan. all the stalinists wont be able to play red alert 2. chavez you should say good bye to a good chunk of your most militant supporters

This is a disgustingly ignorant point of view. Censorship is not a matter to be taken lightly.

"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."

Censorship needs to be taken seriously. It is a violation of basic rights and your marginalising it and treating it like its something to be ridiculed is completely bogus.


This doesn't affect the population either way. Only the petit-bourgeoise or bourgeoise able to afford this kind of game legally, which I couldn't give the fuck at all. What productivity does the violent video game give?

Its not our job to decide what people can and can't watch, what they can and can't play, what they can and can't read, and so on. Its not our job to do that. We are supposed to be striving for a more free and just society, and censorship only takes us farther and farther away from that.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I agree with you Yazman. Censorship cannot be a thing we use or advocate if we want a communist society.

[Artemis3]

I can't believe some of the comments that were made on this thread.

First, this is a stupid law, made by the National Assembly. No, Chavez didn't sat down and wrote it, as most of you like to portrait about things in my country. He must, however, sign it if it goes to pass, or refuse with arguments and the law goes back to the assembly for changes.

Second, everyone here going up in arms for something like this... Guys, we have farmers who has been given land being killed by ex landlords, we have Colombian paramilitary killing social leaders and even elected authorities, we have an obscene right wing elite conspiring and trying to destroy everything and even try a Coup Honduras style like they did in 2002; we have the US establishing 7 military bases in Colombia to stop left movements in the whole continent, and you guys are like, "Oh noes! My games!"... psss.

I am a gamer, and all gamers are against this. But to think everyone is hating Chavez and willing to let the right to come back and destroy everything that has been advanced in 10+ years of progressive changes, after coming from the neo-liberalism nightmare of the 90ies, you just have no idea, to say it diplomatically...

So what do you think the masses think about this? Well, they are a little busier with things like, you know, workers taking control of a fabric abandoned by their former capitalist owners, organizing themselves in their community so the State transfer funds for them to do their projects, discussing left ideology for the Socialist Party...

If this stupid law passes, well, it simply means you can't go to a store and purchase games anymore. But how many people do that in this country? Very few; i say, most of them would be part of the rich elite or their wealthy supporters. What a shame, this also forces everyone to chip their consoles. Thats no problem either, most consoles are sold already modded, or can be sent for modding to many places. The games are simply downloaded or purchased from street vendors, along with movies and other means of US culture brainwash.

So whats the general public reaction for a law like this here in Venezuela? It is more a collective "meh". Oh, but did you know we can actually call a referendum to revoke this law by popular vote after it is passed? Oh but this is thanks to this Chavez guy you hate so much that we can do obscene things like, consulting the people what they think about revoking a stupid law, or a stupid elected authority, such as those in the National Assembly or even Chavez himself, yet he keeps winning, Why would that be if things are the way you were led to believe?. No freedom! Yeah, right...

That has been my advise to all the pissed gamers: Instead of joining the reactionary right against Chavez, use the tools he gave you, tools you will lose the instant they came into power if you keep playing their game...

Face it, Chavez is not going anywhere because Chavez is about giving power to the people. If you do not understand this, you simply need to either come live here and learn things or STFU. Hell, did you know, there is an international left parties summit right now in Caracas? Where the hell are you not giving speeches here? Did you even came to the Youth Festival in 2006? Can you even freely express yourselves where you live about Socialism and workers power?

Venezuela is about Venezuelans choosing their path, even if you keep believing the lies corporate media feeds you with.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Its not our job to decide what people can and can't watch, what they can and can't play, what they can and can't read, and so on. Its not our job to do that. We are supposed to be striving for a more free and just society, and censorship only takes us farther and farther away from that.
The Venezuelan did this law themselves and it wasn't done by a fucking man. They have many reason to do this, they thought that banning violent games will help reduce violent in their country, which is very real. The violent will happen as long the capitalism exists. Thinking that we can reach communism society without any means to do censorship is idealism. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_States Remember the Red Scare, Bolshevikism Scare? Everywhere there is censorship of some forms. Thinking people will care is stupid, the face is they do not as long they can live on. Allowing capitalism material to plague the community with freedom coming to them is insane, people will never be smart until the division of labor disappear. USSR allowed individuals to do their arts, the only thing is that publishing it to the society will have to go through the agreement by the local council. Anyway, we have to watch what we should censor or not, otherwise the fucking capitalists will get us with their massive resource.

[Comrade B]

Can I just put in a laugh at someone saying that art is "degenerating"
We are communists for fucks sake... does it need to be appreciated by the bourgeois to be art?

It is just kind of stupid that the Venezuelan government gives a shit about this kind of crap while there are so many REAL problems going on.

[Intelligitimate]

It's probably only directed at explicitly anti-socialist propaganda, like Mercenaries and Mercenaries 2. Those games should be banned.

[The Something]

I am at a loss of words for anyone trying to defend this blatant attempt to curb freedom of expression.

Yeah there are more pressing problems, but when you start taking things and censoring them you think it will just be like "oh we just wanna censor games, nevermind rap or every hollywood action movie."

Please give me a break.

[Honggweilo]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6239252.html?tag=latestheadlines;title;3
If this measure is aimed at CIA/US Army/CAFC sponsered reactionary shite like Mercinaries 2 or Ghost Recon, i'm all for it. It might give decent titles the light of day for a change. But only if they dont go on this puritain "zomg violence" vendetta on games which are not deliberately aimed to defame the Bolivarian Revolution.


Now let's see the "Marxist-Leninists" come here and support this
To bait the trolls"; "We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have videogames" :rolleyes:

Oh hell i might even support banning the next Red Alert release, killing of that genre will do the world a favor, and prevent the raping of juvenile nostalgia even further :p

[Wanted Man]

I can't believe some of the comments that were made on this thread.

First, this is a stupid law, made by the National Assembly. No, Chavez didn't sat down and wrote it, as most of you like to portrait about things in my country. He must, however, sign it if it goes to pass, or refuse with arguments and the law goes back to the assembly for changes.

Second, everyone here going up in arms for something like this... Guys, we have farmers who has been given land being killed by ex landlords, we have Colombian paramilitary killing social leaders and even elected authorities, we have an obscene right wing elite conspiring and trying to destroy everything and even try a Coup Honduras style like they did in 2002; we have the US establishing 7 military bases in Colombia to stop left movements in the whole continent, and you guys are like, "Oh noes! My games!"... psss.

I am a gamer, and all gamers are against this. But to think everyone is hating Chavez and willing to let the right to come back and destroy everything that has been advanced in 10+ years of progressive changes, after coming from the neo-liberalism nightmare of the 90ies, you just have no idea, to say it diplomatically...

So what do you think the masses think about this? Well, they are a little busier with things like, you know, workers taking control of a fabric abandoned by their former capitalist owners, organizing themselves in their community so the State transfer funds for them to do their projects, discussing left ideology for the Socialist Party...

If this stupid law passes, well, it simply means you can't go to a store and purchase games anymore. But how many people do that in this country? Very few; i say, most of them would be part of the rich elite or their wealthy supporters. What a shame, this also forces everyone to chip their consoles. Thats no problem either, most consoles are sold already modded, or can be sent for modding to many places. The games are simply downloaded or purchased from street vendors, along with movies and other means of US culture brainwash.

So whats the general public reaction for a law like this here in Venezuela? It is more a collective "meh". Oh, but did you know we can actually call a referendum to revoke this law by popular vote after it is passed? Oh but this is thanks to this Chavez guy you hate so much that we can do obscene things like, consulting the people what they think about revoking a stupid law, or a stupid elected authority, such as those in the National Assembly or even Chavez himself, yet he keeps winning, Why would that be if things are the way you were led to believe?. No freedom! Yeah, right...

That has been my advise to all the pissed gamers: Instead of joining the reactionary right against Chavez, use the tools he gave you, tools you will lose the instant they came into power if you keep playing their game...

Face it, Chavez is not going anywhere because Chavez is about giving power to the people. If you do not understand this, you simply need to either come live here and learn things or STFU. Hell, did you know, there is an international left parties summit right now in Caracas? Where the hell are you not giving speeches here? Did you even came to the Youth Festival in 2006? Can you even freely express yourselves where you live about Socialism and workers power?

Venezuela is about Venezuelans choosing their path, even if you keep believing the lies corporate media feeds you with.

Wow. This post should be recorded and used for a website like "Last Measure", to be sent to several people on Revleft, with them being unable to turn it off.

[Agnapostate]

You can turn off Last Measure with Task Manager, though. Actually, you can just turn it off by closing it quickly, before it gets all crazy. :lol:

[leninpuncher]

Ok, they don't promote individualism. What they do promote is imperialist terrorism.
Chuckled

Most games are pretty apolitical. Recently a few of them have been almost dissident. There's a bit in MW2, where the player gets fucked over by the American military and burnt alive by one of their top commanders. Half Life 2 is about a bunch of people fighting the government. GTA4 makes quite a few points about the shitty lives of illegal immigrants in the US. I think Far Cry was partially about Globalization.

[Dimentio]

If violent video games had existed in the 1980's, and Sweden would have taken the thing to a referendum, I'm sure the "ban" side would win. During that time, there was a majority for banning violent comic magazines and to ban vcr's (not just violent films, but ALL films). One quotation was funny: "We must ban these things because we are living in a democracy". RPG's were about to be banned as well.

How is the public sentiment in Venezuela regarding this law? I guess most Venezuelans are rather indifferent due to the fact that they have more important laws to care about.

[Comrade B]

I think the main issue is why the fuck Chavez thinks this is a big enough issue to start shit about...
You lead VENEZUELA for fucks sake!
It might not be the worst place on earth... but... it isn't quite running in top shape...

[Robocommie]

If anyone here has ever played Rainbow Six: 3 on consoles the plot is VERY anti-chavez. Your goal is to kill the Venezuelan president (not named chavez for obviously reasons) who is being funded by islamic fundamentalists (no surprise there) and eventually cuts off the US Oil supply and to top it off the character you play is called 'Ding Chavez'.

The banning of such violent games by Chavez shouldn't effect the majority of Venezuelans as poverty among the masses still isnt eradicated and most cant afford a TV let alone consoles or computers.

All Tom Clancy games are like that. Ghost Recon: Island Thunder has you go into Cuba and basically protect the fledgling post-Castro democracy from falling back into Socialist tyranny. It's pretty fucked up, but then all games that glorify the US military do tend to be that kind of blockheadedly ignorant of global politics.

To be fair though, that guy "Ding Chavez" has been a character since the beginning of the Rainbow Six franchise, it's just a weird coincidence.

[Robocommie]

Chuckled

Most games are pretty apolitical. Recently a few of them have been almost dissident. There's a bit in MW2, where the player gets fucked over by the American military and burnt alive by one of their top commanders. Half Life 2 is about a bunch of people fighting the government. GTA4 makes quite a few points about the shitty lives of illegal immigrants in the US. I think Far Cry was partially about Globalization.

Thumbs up dude, you're right. Video games are no more reactionary or revolutionary than any other form of popular literature. The message or story behind the game is what dictates the political value, not the actual idea of gaming itself.

I'm not interested in moralism, I'm not interested in the idea that violent video games teach kids to kill any more than I think Elvis Presley's shaking hips are obscene or that rap makes kids join gangs, that's all ridiculous, the source of violence and antisocial behavior is capitalist alienation, economic repression, and capitalism's inability to get the proper treatment and therapy to kids or adults with undiagnosed or untreated mental disorders. Violent video games, movies, music, are all excuses to avoid facing the fact that the system breaks people, or fails to help them get better.

Edit: That said I think Artemis3 has the right of it. This law sucks, but you have to put it in context, and recognize that if a socialist government passes a few bad laws now and then, that alone does not make it illegitimate.

[Robocommie]

Big deal. Seriously, anyone, if there ever will be such a game, imagine this situation:

The plot resolves around a country in where the ruling class, a group of wealthy businessmen, are hyperexploiting the workers. The police are brutal, and the propaganda screams of how democratic that country is. Your goal, when you wake up, is to transform that country into a state where people share all the stuff. But in order to do so, you must violently overthrow this group of businessmen. The main enemy of the game are police units, hired mercenaries, traitors and spies, as well as one or another (here I go again) robot. The bosses are the businessmen.

Tell me, is there such a game today?

Tell me again, if any distributor manages to, where this game would be sold in the US, and in which states this game would be banned.

Red Faction. That's almost the exact plotline of Red Faction. And ironically you can buy it at Wal-Mart for $40.

[Dr Mindbender]

It's probably only directed at explicitly anti-socialist propaganda, like Mercenaries and Mercenaries 2. Those games should be banned.

Did you read what i typed?

The games arent 'anti-socialist'. Mercenaries certainly isnt the worst offender by a long stretch.

In both games you get to fight for China for a start. When was the last time you got to do that in a american made game?


If this measure is aimed at CIA/US Army/CAFC sponsered reactionary shite like Mercinaries 2

Oh, snore....


games which are not deliberately aimed to defame the Bolivarian Revolution.

ffs... for the ones who still think this is about chavez, or the bolivarian revolution the intro vid to the main part starts here at about 0.50. Tell me where you can see chavez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q68gbTinCNc&feature=related

[Robocommie]

In both games you get to fight for China for a start. When was the last time you got to do that in a american made game?

I was going to be cheeky and say Dynasty Warriors, but then I remembered that it's Japanese!

[Honggweilo]

In both games you get to fight for China for a start. When was the last time you got to do that in a american made game?
C&C Generals, also a "marvel of socialist gaming" :rolleyes: (which is one of the 3 major titles China banned btw), Operation Flashpoint 2, Hearts of Iron, ect ect.. doenst say shit about its content

Just because you like the overtly masculine "fuk yer blow shit up plot of mercinaries 2 doesnt mean the whole story is not very fucking suggestive, even though it doesnt directly portray Chavez. Did Mercinaries 1 made any reference to existing north korean figureheads? ffs the developers openly stated they recieved army funding.

But hey, Chavez doesnt need to worry himself anymore, Pandemic bankrupted itself just recently over their mediocre sequel and its failure to deliver Battlefront 2 :lol:

[Intelligitimate]

Did you read what i typed?

No. Why the fuck would you assume my response to this thread had a god damn thing to do with you?


The games arent 'anti-socialist'.Yes the hell they are. Any fucking nimrod playing the game for 5 minutes can tell that. The first one is literally about overthrowing the government of North Korea (even if it is just underwent a coup in the story) and the bad guy in Mercenaries 2 is very obviously supposed to be Chavez (even if how he is depicted has nothing to do with Chavez). That you can do other things in side plots means nothing. The objective of both games is to overthrow the governments of North Korea and Venezuela.


Mercenaries certainly isnt the worst offender by a long stretch.It most certainly is, in the case of Venezuela and Chavez.


In both games you get to fight for China for a start. When was the last time you got to do that in a american made game?What does that matter? China isn't a depicted in either game in any flattering light.

[Robocommie]

Yes the hell they are. Any fucking nimrod playing the game for 5 minutes can tell that. The first one is literally about overthrowing the government of North Korea (even if it is just underwent a coup in the story) and the bad guy in Mercenaries 2 is very obviously supposed to be Chavez (even if how he is depicted has nothing to do with Chavez). That you can do other things in side plots means nothing. The objective of both games is to overthrow the governments of North Korea and Venezuela.


That's pretty fucking subjective, isn't it? You admit that how he's depicted has nothing to do with Chavez, and yet it's fucking obvious that it IS Chavez. Or in other words, it's obvious because YOU want it to be.

And given North Korea's human rights record, I don't think they should be considered a jewel of Socialist values.

[Intelligitimate]

That's pretty fucking subjective, isn't it? You admit that how he's depicted has nothing to do with Chavez, and yet it's fucking obvious that it IS Chavez. Or in other words, it's obvious because YOU want it to be.

It's not entirely exact because Chavez is split into two different characters in the game: Solano and Carmona. Carmona is a military man you have to rescue from prison, and he is there because of a previous failed coup attempt (sound familiar?). Solano is trying to create a Latin superpower by privatizing the oil industry. The parallels are just shockingly obvious either to real or imagined details about Chavez. Again, only a moron couldn't see this.


And given North Korea's human rights record, I don't think they should be considered a jewel of Socialist values.So you share in the same anti-communist, pro-imperialist, bourgeois propaganda as the creators of these games (who also make software for the US military). This is not an argument against these games being anti-communist just because you agree with their anti-communism.

[Robocommie]

It's not entirely exact because Chavez is split into two different characters in the game: Solano and Carmona. Carmona is a military man you have to rescue from prison, and he is there because of a previous failed coup attempt (sound familiar?). Solano is trying to create a Latin superpower by privatizing the oil industry. The parallels are just shockingly obvious either to real or imagined details about Chavez. Again, only a moron couldn't see this.

How the fuck is an attempt to privatize the oil industry a parallel to Chavez? Doesn't that make Solano the exact opposite of Chavez?

Well, here's an alternate theory, who gives a fuck? Or do you think that Mercenaries 2 is really going to tip the balance towards convincing the US to back a right-wing coup in Venezuela? I suppose you feel Obama was going to offer an aid package to the Bolivarian missions until those damned lobbyists from the 14-21 age demographic got to him. Fucking Pac-Man! WHY?



So you share in the same anti-communist, pro-imperialist, bourgeois propaganda as the creators of these games (who also make software for the US military). This is not an argument against these games being anti-communist just because you agree with their anti-communism.Blah blah blah. You caught me man, I'm an anti-communist, pro-imperialist. Damn, and I thought I was being so subtle. Next time I guess we should try soft drinks instead of video games.

[Intelligitimate]

How the fuck is an attempt to privatize the oil industry a parallel to Chavez? Doesn't that make Solano the exact opposite of Chavez?

That should be nationalizing. I didn't catch the error until now.


Well, here's an alternate theory, who gives a fuck?

The government of Venezuela, that's who.


Or do you think that Mercenaries 2 is really going to tip the balance towards convincing the US to back a right-wing coup in Venezuela? I suppose you feel Obama was going to offer an aid package to the Bolivarian missions until those damned lobbyists from the 14-21 age demographic got to him. Fucking Pac-Man! WHY?


The US already backs any right-wing attempts to oust Chavez, dumbass. This is a piece of media directed at impressionable youth in Venezuela.


Blah blah blah. You caught me man, I'm an anti-communist, pro-imperialist.

And apparently a liberal who cries over the corpse of dead fascists that murdered countless comrades, and whines about the restriction of the Western bourgeois media to have access to Venezuelan youth.

[Robocommie]

The US already backs any right-wing attempts to oust Chavez, dumbass. This is a piece of media directed at impressionable youth in Venezuela.

Shit, that sarcasm went right over your head. Of course the US already backs ousting of Chavez. That was my point. And you think this piece will enflame tensions in Venezuela? Funny, because the complaint by the Venezuelan government was that it was going to drum up support in the US. I think Chavez has enough trouble with the bourgeoisie media in Venezuela as it is, some fucking video game ain't going to tip the scale there either.



And apparently a liberal who cries over the corpse of dead fascists that murdered countless comrades, and whines about the restriction of the Western bourgeois media to have access to Venezuelan youth.Oh for fuck's sakes. Is this how you're going to debate the issues? With petty childish name calling? "Yeah, well YOU'RE a liberal!" Fuck off. If you don't have enough of an argument and you want to go roaming around in other threads to drum up evidence that I'm a heretic, be my guest, but it's not going to change the fact that you're declaring people imperialists over video games.

Reply if you want, but I doubt you'll have anything more interesting to say than accusations of how I'm a traitor to every socialist EVER because I don't agree with you.

[Intelligitimate]

Funny, because the complaint by the Venezuelan government was that it was going to drum up support in the US.

That is true as well. It's gearing up our youth to be ever more complacent in the face of imperialist onslaught of the third-world.


I think Chavez has enough trouble with the bourgeoisie media in Venezuela as it is, some fucking video game ain't going to tip the scale there either.

Every little bit of power taken away from the Venezuelan bourgeoisie to freely distribute their propaganda is a victory, except to whiney liberals like yourself that scream and cry when the bourgeoisie lose their "right" to use their hegemony to influence the minds of people.


Oh for fuck's sakes. Is this how you're going to debate the issues? With petty childish name calling? "Yeah, well YOU'RE a liberal!" Fuck off.

You are a liberal that really has no business at a place called Revolutionary Left (though this forum is, unfortunately, a haven for the pseudo-Left like yourself).

[Robocommie]

Every little bit of power taken away from the Venezuelan bourgeoisie to freely distribute their propaganda is a victory, except to whiney liberals like yourself that scream and cry when the bourgeoisie lose their "right" to use their hegemony to influence the minds of people.

Anyone whose political opinion is influenced by a videogame is not going to make it very far in life.



You are a liberal that really has no business at a place called Revolutionary Left (though this forum is, unfortunately, a haven for the pseudo-Left like yourself).

No, I'm a Leftist with a less totalitarian interpretation of socialism than you, and you are a spaz who thinks the Left is his own little political clubhouse.

[Patchd]

Don't worry about Intellolgitimate, his arguments usually only amounts to denouncing others as 'liberals', whilst their posts contain absolutely nothing but pure unsubstantiated shit.


Every little bit of power taken away from the Venezuelan bourgeoisie to freely distribute their propaganda is a victory, except to whiney liberals like yourself that scream and cry when the bourgeoisie lose their "right" to use their hegemony to influence the minds of people.But that's not the case, it is being done in the interests of another section of the bourgeoisie, the section with the same ideological lines as those British social democratic capitalists who supported the formation of a welfare state here. This is nothing but pure social democracy you're spouting, it is in fact you who has no place on this board. If you would like, you can respond to my post here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1620334&postcount=65), there are many points, especially regarding Chavez's anti-working class state, which have not been addressed yet.

[Intelligitimate]

lol, someone from the IWW calling Chavez a social-democrat. The IWW is a historical society full of anarchists who don't fucking bathe, let alone actually attempt to unionize anything. I know a guy who personally went to their last national organizing crapola and dropped out because it is basically just another loose-string of stupid anarchist groups that like to organize concerts.

Your post is just a massive pile of bourgeois media bullshit. You fake being ultra-Left so you can espouse the worst sort of Rightist-opportunism. You're a disgusting reactionary.

[Patchd]

Don't worry about Intellolgitimate, his arguments usually only amounts to denouncing others as 'liberals', whilst their posts contain absolutely nothing but pure unsubstantiated shit.^ Here's what I said earlier.


lol, someone from the IWW calling Chavez a social-democrat. The IWW is a historical society full of anarchists who don't fucking bathe, let alone actually attempt to unionize anything. I know a guy who personally went to their last national organizing crapola and dropped out because it is basically just another loose-string of stupid anarchist groups that like to organize concerts.
Oh look, way to prove my point.

I'm in the IWW because of my own material interests, I don't feel the need to join a mainstream union yet, simply because my workplace is devoid of one anyway, I am not a syndicalist, nor is that my focal point for organising, the Anarchist Federation is, as you may have gathered from my signature.

Not only that, but it is a revolutionary organisation, a look at it's preamble explains that. Unlike a lot of first world Stalinists, the IWW actually organises within the workplace, as opposed to trying to explain to a worker who couldn't care less, why Stalin was a goodie and everyone else is a liberal reactionary revisionist.


Your post is just a massive pile of bourgeois media bullshit. You fake being ultra-Left so you can espouse the worst sort of Rightist-opportunism. You're a disgusting reactionary.But then this has nothing to do with my earlier post. Like I said before, thanks for proving my point, you didn't even tackle one point I made in that post, instead knocking on me being in the IWW ... LOLWUT? What kind of an argument is that? Oh yeh, a trollish one, if you may remember, trolling is against the rules here ;) If you don't like this site because it's full of 'pseudo-leftists', what are you doing on here in the first place? Isn't Soviet Empire more your style?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Sorry but this is absurd and a throwback to 19th century moralism to popular forms of entertainment and frankly its a slippery slope of fiddling with people's freedom to choose their own entertainment, you go further down this route and you get people accepting enroachments by the staet and before you know it you need a license to shit and a CCTV camera every four steps (the last one is a reality in the UK).


PS: Chavez is not going to deliver communism to all the children this Christmas , stalin babies sort your shit out.

[Intelligitimate]

Unlike a lot of first world Stalinists, the IWW actually organises within the workplaceThis is literally hysterical. You're so clueless it is unbelievable. The IWW doesn't organize workplaces. I've participated myself in one of the very, very few places the IWW has attempted to unionize in recent years, and they lost. The people who organized it just quit the IWW, because they realize dual-unionism doesn't fucking work, especially when the union is dominated by anarcho-morons who just wanna organize concerts.

And trust me, Marxist-Leninists are organizing more workers than all the Trots and anarchists combined.


as opposed to trying to explain to a worker who couldn't care less, why Stalin was a goodie and everyone else is a liberal reactionary revisionist.You're right, workers don't care about Stalin. They're not comitted anti-communist trash like yourself. They care about fighting the boss, not anarcho-lifestyle bullshit. Good luck getting the working class on board with not showering and eating out of dumpsters.


Like I said before, thanks for proving my point, you didn't even tackle one point I made in that postWhy should I bother? Others already have dealt with the absolute bullshit you spew.

[Patchd]

This is literally hysterical. You're so clueless it is unbelievable. The IWW doesn't organize workplaces. I've participated myself in one of the very, very few places the IWW has attempted to unionize in recent years, and they lost. The people who organized it just quit the IWW, because they realize dual-unionism doesn't fucking work, especially when the union is dominated by anarcho-morons who just wanna organize concerts.

There are members on this board, from Britain, who have participated in the IWW, and in IWW unionised places, there is one in Sheffield for example. Not only that, but they have won cases for their members, as well as helping workers with compensation claims. In fact, my own mum has just joined the IWW after some convincing. She's an immigrant worker from Thailand and before had not been very politically active at all, I'm going to try and help her unionise her workplace, some of the workers there already seem interested, but with immigrant workers, there can be a trend to avoid workers' struggle, since job security is lower than it is for someone born here. So no, the IWW don't only organise gigs and stuff, although someone else who's actually active a lot of the time within the union should refute your arguments better than mine.


And trust me, Marxist-Leninists are organizing more workers than all the Trots and anarchists combined.In 'first world' countries, like I stated?


You're right, workers don't care about Stalin. They're not comitted anti-communist trash like yourself. They care about fighting the boss, not anarcho-lifestyle bullshit. Good luck getting the working class on board with not showering and eating out of dumpsters.When will your idiocy end? Here's another strawman you've created. Care to back up the claim that I'm a lifestylist, or is this another example of you avoiding the point completely, I wonder what your aim is? To halt actual discussion on issues?

You're right on one thing though, I don't shower too often. Oh, and the only time I've gone skipping has been when I hadn't any money to buy food with.


Why should I bother? Others already have dealt with the absolute bullshit you spew.Erm, actually, the reason I brought up that link is precisely because most of my points in that post of mine were not dealt with that I asked you to do so if you were interested, if not, then fine your choice, but there's no need to create bullshit reasons for avoiding it.


EDIT: Sorry, I can't believe how off-topic I've gone. This is my last post in this thread, if you actually want to debate Chavez's anti-worker credentials, I'll be happy to do so in the other thread.