No Left wing struggle against ID cards?

[Moon23]

Can I ask, why do you think it is none of the main socialists or left groups are activly opposing ID cards? Is it just becuase they affilate to NO2ID and all the action is done within that umbrella?

I know Defy ID exist on paper, but they don't seem very active seeing as ID cards are about to be launched.

[Tatarin]

ID cards are already a big part of the world. What is needed is to crush capitalism. IDs are just a small part of it.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Here is something Afed wrote on ID cards:
http://www.afed.org.uk/ace/anon.html

[Invincible Summer]

My assumption is because it's a pretty niche topic, and communist groups usually frown upon "single-issue" stuff.

My personal opinion is that ID card technology (assuming you're also talking about stuff like RFID chips) has plenty of potential (keep track of labour hours in socialist/communist society, keep track of consumers in a certain community so production can be matched, etc) but like all technology, it is more likely to be used against the working class - or at least more for the benefit of the bougies - in capitalist society.

And lots of the arguments against RFID and related tech I've heard are just your typical conspiracy-loon, FEMA-camp, Black Helicopter crap.

[Jethro Tull]

My personal opinion is that ID card technology (assuming you're also talking about stuff like RFID chips) has plenty of potential (keep track of labour hours in socialist/communist society, keep track of consumers in a certain community so production can be matched, etc)

That is such a horrible line of thought.

Communists must fight for the abolition of ID card databases and all other forms of capitalist surveillance.

[Moon23]

Yes the idea of being a worker in a society where my labour hours are tracked by the state scares me. People must be put in control of their own data and information.

The left do latch onto certin topics, for instance the anti-war movement. As things are interlinked any topic is part of the current capitalist system, so ID cards as much as anything could provide an explanatation with what is wrong with capitalism.

Did you know that the WTO is linking the distribution of it's aid to the provision of ID cards in India, and that the person brining it in (Nandan Nilekani) setup one of the software companies about to profit from it. He was also a member of the WEF when he was younger.

ID cards and the Database state is one of the ultimate tools capitalism will soon have in it's arsenal. Failing to stop it will make stopping capitalism harder.

[Jethro Tull]

Yes the idea of being a worker in a society where my labour hours are tracked by the state scares me.

Another example of "socialism" as merely a more developed mode of capitalism.

[Invincible Summer]

That is such a horrible line of thought.

Communists must fight for the abolition of ID card databases and all other forms of capitalist surveillance.

1) I was talking about the technology itself, not the actual current usage of IDs
2) Right underneath the line you cherry-picked, I said that its current usage (within capitalism) makes it more likely to be used against the working class for the benefit of the ruling class, much like any technology created within a capitalist context.

How is it a "horrible line of thought" to see the potential benefits of a given technology?



Yes the idea of being a worker in a society where my labour hours are tracked by the state scares me. People must be put in control of their own data and information.
Well, I put forth the idea because I know some people on RevLeft promote "energy accounting" or "labour credits" of some sort, and keeping track of labour through personalized ID cards would make the organization of labour credits/energy accounting/whatever easier.
Again, it could also assist in the calculations for production - if you take goods from the communal storehouses or what have you, then you could swipe a card or something so it's accounted for in the system.


The left do latch onto certin topics, for instance the anti-war movement. As things are interlinked any topic is part of the current capitalist system, so ID cards as much as anything could provide an explanatation with what is wrong with capitalism.

I do agree with the statement that "things are interlinked... any topic is part of the current capitalist system." However, when you say "the left latches onto certain topics," what do you define as "the left?" Social democrats? Liberal-lefties?

Anti-war is inherently communist (well, I guess except for class war), but not all anti-war activists/groups are communists. War is also a clear example of imperialism, which communists also combat.

However, an issue as niche as RFID/ID cards wouldn't be focused on for an organization's platform. That's pointless.

[h0m0revolutionary]

This is a simple matter of resource allocation.

The left is in a dire state and so we have to choose our battle grounds wisely. ID cards are scary stuff, but they aren't going to dictate my priority campaigns.

Moreover, no self-respecting revolutionary should get involved with anything around NO2ID, who have amongst others UKIP and the Freedom and Justice League as their supporters.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I don't really care about ID cards, the state already have enough resources to find and kill me if they really wanted to, but we have to face facts, they're not going to firstly because this isn't a George Orwell book, and more importantly I haven't actually done anything wrong. We're not Alex Jones fans. The only bad thing about ID cards that I can think of is that they will be able to enforce immigration laws easier by doing quick card checks in the street instead of having to make phone calls to the Home Office or whatever, but if it ever came to the point where the police were stopping everyone with brown skin we would have bigger things than ID cards to worry about. Also I actually think ID cards would be a good thing in a socialist society.

[RedRise]

I agree with h0m0revolutionary. We must chose battles that are big enough to be of importance but small enough to have at least a chance at winning. ID cards are pretty bloody awful but they do have some useful functions and there are much bigger evils that need to be tackled first.

[Moon23]

I don't really care about ID cards, the state already have enough resources to find and kill me if they really wanted to, but we have to face facts, they're not going to firstly because this isn't a George Orwell book, and more importantly I haven't actually done anything wrong. We're not Alex Jones fans. The only bad thing about ID cards that I can think of is that they will be able to enforce immigration laws easier by doing quick card checks in the street instead of having to make phone calls to the Home Office or whatever, but if it ever came to the point where the police were stopping everyone with brown skin we would have bigger things than ID cards to worry about. Also I actually think ID cards would be a good thing in a socialist society.

I see it more like Terry Gilliam's Brazil rather than George Orwell. You know being called Tuttle rather than Buttle and having your life ruined by the state. It's a bit like all the people who are wrongly accused of being criminals by the CRB because they have a simlair namd and DOB as someone else.

I also don't by the argument that becuase the state can allready gain information on us that we should be complicent about it making it even easier.

Do you not think if ID cards and the National Identity register are in place that it will make it harder to be a political campainger and activist?

NO2ID are a single issue campaign so they can't take an ideological stance on UKIP or anyone else. I think that's fair enough. If you don't like working alongside UKIP then there is Defy ID after all. Personally i'm an anarchist and don't mind working alongside people like UKIP who I disagree with on other things, on matters where I do argree. I'm much more pragmatic rather than tribalistic in my politics.

[Moon23]

I agree with h0m0revolutionary. We must chose battles that are big enough to be of importance but small enough to have at least a chance at winning. ID cards are pretty bloody awful but they do have some useful functions and there are much bigger evils that need to be tackled first.

What are the useful functions?

[Irish commie]

You would'nt mind working with UKIP??? They are very anti immigration and right wing it could even be said they are closet racists. A very nasty bunch of people all in all. I also doubt they would work with you if you describe yourself as an anarchist.

[Moon23]

You would'nt mind working with UKIP??? They are very anti immigration and right wing it could even be said they are closet racists. A very nasty bunch of people all in all. I also doubt they would work with you if you describe yourself as an anarchist.

Yes they are right wing, some maybe are closet racist, but certainly not all of them. Many are also freedom loving people who are anti-state particular an undemocratic EU superstate.

I'm an acquaintance with one UKIP coordinator who is happy to work with me on opposing ID cards etc. We disagree about a lot of things, but agree on that issue and we can have a civil pint and a chat about it. I've always found talking to people like that the best way to overcome difference and achieve political outcomes. The idea that I wouldn't work with someone on X because they thing differently about Y I don't understand.

[Ravachol]

Yes they are right wing, some maybe are closet racist, but certainly not all of them. Many are also freedom loving people who are anti-state particular an undemocratic EU superstate.

I'm an acquaintance with one UKIP coordinator who is happy to work with me on opposing ID cards etc. We disagree about a lot of things, but agree on that issue and we can have a civil pint and a chat about it. I've always found talking to people like that the best way to overcome difference and achieve political outcomes. The idea that I wouldn't work with someone on X because they thing differently about Y I don't understand.


Anti-Statism is worth nothing if it is accompanied by a desire for private ownership of the means of production. The UKIP is a libertarian party. Libertarianism is inherently incompatible with Anarchism as it calls for privatization. This does not oppose the state, it merely transfers control from a bureaucratic bourgoise entity to a private bourgoise entity. Secondly, libertarianism does not oppose structures of opression, it merely opposes the classical definition of the state and for all the wrong reasons too. Libertarianism (and the UKIP) does not oppose the state because it acts as the executive committee of the bourgoise, it opposes the state because it, or at least in their eyes, somewhat restricts private corporations. The natural and logical end-result of libertarianism would be rather close to modern-day monarchism. In fact, some radical libertarians like Hans-Herman Hoppe support the monarchist idea. Opposition to the state only makes sense when it is accompanied by class struggle and the desire for worker's control over the means of production.

If you want to work with some UKIP coordinator, be my guest, but do realize that their opposition to ID cards comes from a completely different political position than anarchism. Secondly, their anti-ID card campaign is part of a larger political agenda, as is always the case in politics. By actively working with them, you support that larger campaign, aiming for libertarianism, as well. I don't know if that is what you want, but as an Anarchist I most certainly wouldn't. Opposing the state is necessary, but opposing private corporations is just as mandatory, if not moreso nowadays.

[Steve_j]

Why in gods name would any leftist think ID cards have some good points?

[ls]

I don't really care about ID cards, the state already have enough resources to find and kill me if they really wanted to, but we have to face facts, they're not going to firstly because this isn't a George Orwell book, and more importantly I haven't actually done anything wrong. We're not Alex Jones fans. The only bad thing about ID cards that I can think of is that they will be able to enforce immigration laws easier by doing quick card checks in the street instead of having to make phone calls to the Home Office or whatever, but if it ever came to the point where the police were stopping everyone with brown skin we would have bigger things than ID cards to worry about. Also I actually think ID cards would be a good thing in a socialist society.

This is true to an extent, but then again the state do stop a lot of people with brown skin.

The met even want to put armed police patrols on council estates (and are doing so currently in Tottenham and Brixton).

So ya know saying "it's not a worry and ID cards might be a good thing" is a bit silly. I agree with h0m0revolutionary that we should distance ourselves from extremely capitalist groupings who oppose it, but think we should have a strong position against the police state in our revolutionary platforms, the Afed one is pretty good imo.

[Luís Henrique]

I actually have an ID card.

Have had one for the last 35 years.

Can't see exactly what the problem is with it.

Luís Henrique

[Steve_j]

An example of a concern could be that national identity cards have been used by governments to suppress political dissidents (your country is an example)

Given the database fetish of the police in the UK eg DNA, Domestic extremists(protesters) ect they also want ID to be compulsory and to be shown on police demand. Although the scheme has been watered down i am concerned that this is just a means to introduce it slowly. Starting with those less able to defend themselves from such things, ie immigrants.

My better half is Spanish, like you she doesnt really share my concern about ID cards and thats just the way things have always been for her.

The police have no reason to know my identity unless i have been implicated in an offence (driving and such are exceptions) and to be quite frank i would like to keep it that way. As far as i am concered none of the arguments for identity cards hold water, there is no reason other than state control over the population.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Also don't see any problem with ID cards.
The wanton destruction of organized society is not our goal. ID cards in and of themselves aren't oppressive.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I don't really care about ID cards, the state already have enough resources to find and kill me if they really wanted to, but we have to face facts, they're not going to firstly because this isn't a George Orwell book, and more importantly I haven't actually done anything wrong.
Lol. That is a good reason to feel secure, after all our wonderful police force certainly wouldn't act against anyone if they hadn't done anything wrong. :lol:

[Luís Henrique]

An example of a concern could be that national identity cards have been used by governments to suppress political dissidents (your country is an example)

When we were suppressed, it was not because we had ID cards.

And when necessary, we faked them.

Luís Henrique

[Steve_j]

When we were suppressed, it was not because we had ID cards

I know, but the id cards we a tool of supression no?


And when necessary, we faked them.

Excellent:) Really i mean it!

But centalised biometric databases are a little more difficult to forge :( does that explain our concern a little more?

[Luís Henrique]

I know, but the id cards we a tool of supression no?

No, actually not. Identity cards are useless for that end unless you have a legislation that allows arbitrary detentions, forbids contact between prisoners and their lawyers, and doesn't provide for immediate habeas corpus. And if you have this, you actually don't need identity cards.


But centalised biometric databases are a little more difficult to forge :( does that explain our concern a little more?

I very much doubt the police will be able to actually check those databases in routine situations. On the other hand, people who are in the actual situation of being persecuted by the State would be more easily identificated, of course, if they made the mistake of strolling around with their legitimate ID card in their wallet, but then I don't think the police actually need ID cards or biometric databases to spot out a clandestine in disguise.

Luís Henrique