European Union

[farleft]

Hello,

I searched for an EU thread but couldnt find one so I hope this hasn't been done before.

I want to know what people on RevLeft think about the EU as we are from a wide range of ideologies and backgrounds.

This can be on general principals or more specific laws/legislation.

Thanks,

[bricolage]

The problem with the EU is we should criticise it as an attempt to strengthen European capital and continue dominance over the Global South however the most vocal opponents of the EU are the far right, the nationalists the xenophobes meaning we potentially enter into dangerous alliances. When talking about the EU you have to make it clear that you a) oppose the national ruling class as you would the European ruling class and b) are not opposed to integration per se, we are of course all internationalists, but are opposed to integration along the lines that projects like the EU are structured. I do feel though that as criticism of Europe often ends up failing to properly refer to a) (see for example No2EU) it should not be one of our primary demands or something we put too much effort in to.

[Comrade Gwydion]

I am very much in favor of the idea of a European union, even an United States of Europe. Problem is, the current one is a very undemocratic, laissefair capitalist, conservative version. In other words, an utopia turned dystopian. Concluded, I am very much for an european union, but rather not this one.


On the short term, 'reformism', note: I'd like to give the European Parliament 'right of initiative' and many other powers that can be taken away from the European Commission. This would make it far more democratic.
Current system:
European Commission consist of one (not democraticly chosen) representative of each state (27 total), and they act as the cabinet: they think of new laws and such.
Then the proposal goes to the European Parliament.
The EP consist of 736 MEP's, who are members of sever factions, but are chosen as members of national parties. They get to say 'okay', or 'nay, change it'.
When it has an Okay, it goes to the European Counsil, which simply mean the responsible minister of the national governments. They can also say 'Okay' or 'nay, change it'.

When the answer is no, the proposal goes back to the EC, then the EP, and then the counsil again, for at maximum three times. If they EP or counsil still say 'no' by that time, there will be (in an undisclosed (undemocratic?) manner) selecter 'several' members of the EC, the EP and the counsil to discuss and find an acceptable outcome. Now I say, take away the power of the EC, and take away alot of power from the counsil, et voila: a parliamentary United States of Europe.
Still bourgoisie, but at least an opening for USSE, right?

[farleft]

So your main grevience if you like is that of capital?

I mean there is capital in individual member states same as there is in the EU. At least the EU fines companies that go against anti-competition & anti-trust laws (microsoft 3 times and Intel etc).

[Comrade Gwydion]

Hmmm.....
Yes, companies that go against the laws of competition. This means they're against companies that exploits capitalism, in order to preserve capitalism.



On another not, somehow I'm writing 'to' as 'toe' today.... never did that before, but can't stop doing it today....

[bricolage]

So your main grevience if you like is that of capital?

I mean there is capital in individual member states same as there is in the EU. At least the EU fines companies that go against anti-competition & anti-trust laws (microsoft 3 times and Intel etc).

I'm not sure anti-competition laws really mean much to us, it seems more a bourgeois issue. Whether there is one firm controlling the market or many competing for it there will still be wage slavery and alienation.

The EU also encourages opening up of markets and uses the common agricultural and fishery policies to accentuate the suffering of farmers in the Global South.

[Q]

In this context, I think this article was very good (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/788/newvision.php). It is good, because it gives a direct link from the current way Europe works, to the way we want to see it work :)

[farleft]

Fair comments all round.

What about the potential for the EU to destroy national identity/nationalism in the future, with the EU looking more and more like a federal system especially now the Lisbon treaty has gone ahead and once the older generations die off?

[bricolage]

Fair comments all round.

What about the potential for the EU to destroy national identity/nationalism in the future, with the EU looking more and more like a federal system especially now the Lisbon treaty has gone ahead and once the older generations die off?

From my perspective the EU seems to have done more to strengthen nationalism as people see themselves as under threat from a 'superstate' and think they need to resist it. UKIP, for example, would not exist without the EU.

[Panda Tse Tung]

The problem of the EU is that it makes 95% of the member-country's laws without much democracy encompasing it. The only elected organ has jack shit to say, and at best can ammend laws. For the rest the laws are mostly dictated by business-lobies. So, the EU is quite succesfully the death of any democratic gains made in it's member-states.

[The Deepest Red]

From my perspective the EU seems to have done more to strengthen nationalism as people see themselves as under threat from a 'superstate' and think they need to resist it. UKIP, for example, would not exist without the EU.

Agreed. I do, however, believe there are genuine concerns amongst ordinary folk throughout Europe regarding the undemocratic nature of the EU. Opposition to the direction of the union can certainly take some ugly forms but I would suggest that people buy into the garbage of UKIP, the BNP etc. for the same reasons they tend to have misplaced faith in reformist union leaders or politicians.

[rebelmouse]

http://i33.tinypic.com/33eodq9.jpg

[chegitz guevara]

The main reason to oppose further integration into the EU is that is not democratic.

[farleft]

The problem of the EU is that it makes 95% of the member-country's laws without much democracy encompasing it. The only elected organ has jack shit to say, and at best can ammend laws. For the rest the laws are mostly dictated by business-lobies. So, the EU is quite succesfully the death of any democratic gains made in it's member-states.

95%? I dont think so.

Can someone expand upon their undemocratic thoughts?

As far as I can tell, citizens of member states elect MEP's those MEP's represent them in Europe, surely its the same "democracy" as any other form of western government?

[Q]

95%? I dont think so.
It's more like 70% I read somewhere, but I don't know how accurate that figure is either. It is a lot though and probably a majority of all legislation.


Can someone expand upon their undemocratic thoughts?

As far as I can tell, citizens of member states elect MEP's those MEP's represent them in Europe, surely its the same "democracy" as any other form of western government?They're both of course expressions of the same undemocratic system :)

But the EP is even more laughable as it is so restricted in its abilities. It cannot even start a discussion on anything if I remember correctly. It's only strength is in repealing rules proposed by the European Commission, and this too is crippled.

A fight for more democracy must go hand in hand though with the basic point that the bourgeois parliamentary system is no democracy at all and that we must fight for a working class alternative. It makes no sense to fight for a better parliament as long as it stays within the confines of bourgeois politics.

[farleft]

Even tory arsewipe David Cameron only says it's "nearly half" of our laws and the house of commons says its 9.1% (UKIP say 75%).

I agree with the second part though Q

[FSL]

Could people that sometimes think fondly of EU because it is against nationalism, encompasses all Europe, is pro-environment or whatever other delusion stop calling themselves leftists?
More democracy in EU? So they 'll opress workers of the whole frickin world with economic, political and military means and do so in everyone's name?

Seriously, some things can't be argued. There is an empire ready, just go live in the US.

[Q]

Could people that sometimes think fondly of EU because it is against nationalism, encompasses all Europe, is pro-environment or whatever other delusion stop calling themselves leftists?
More democracy in EU? So they 'll opress workers of the whole frickin world with economic, political and military means and do so in everyone's name?

Seriously, some things can't be argued. There is an empire ready, just go live in the US.
So, what is your alternative? A dissolving of the EU? That would be a huge reactionary step back into nationalism and European politics of before the world wars. The EU, with its obvious limits and anti-working class politics and goals, still represents a progressive step into unification of the continent. Instead of simply shouting "down with the EU!" we should provide a positive, superseding alternative.

On towards the socialist European republic!

In the last issue of Offensief I wrote an article on Europe and the need for a new vision for it, in it I come to the conclusion of the need for a united European republic. It is heavily based though on the article of James Turley I linked to earlier, so I would recommend that read.

[farleft]

Could people that sometimes think fondly of EU because it is against nationalism, encompasses all Europe, is pro-environment or whatever other delusion stop calling themselves leftists?
More democracy in EU? So they 'll opress workers of the whole frickin world with economic, political and military means and do so in everyone's name?

Seriously, some things can't be argued. There is an empire ready, just go live in the US.

It's only just about worthwhile responding to such a narrow minded post but I have a few mins before the pizza arrives.

Workers get oppressed anyway, this has nothing to do with the EU, individual member states or the USA.

Environmental issues dont stick to man made borders so its best tackled by international organisations, co-operation is much more effective.

So basically in terms of how it effects workers and in general the working class, there is a negligable difference, only that these workers can now move from somewhere where they would be paid £3.50 an hour to somewhere where they will get £5.75 an hour (just one example).

I am not saying that the EU is fantastic and obviously as anti-capitalists we strive for a system of real equality but then most leftists accept that capitalism is a much better system to live under than feudalism! So I personally feel it should be accepted as a step in the right direction but seriously in need of improving and moving to a socialist europe.

[FSL]

As I said, move to the US. Everything you ever wanted and a black guy in power to boot.

As for me, yeah, I'd like to see the EU burn. I am narrow-mided like that.



Workers get oppressed anyway, this has nothing to do with the EU, individual member states or the USA.


Say that to Afghanistan or Chile.



A dissolving of the EU? That would be a huge reactionary step back into nationalism and European politics of before the world wars

In terms of capitalist superstructure, a guy born in Romania could be a romanian nationalist or a european citizen. Both identities arise as a result of capitalist relations of production so one can't be considered better. Your anti-nationalist stance is much less the outcome of thought and much more a pavlovian reflex. Be proud.

Of course, the relative positions of Romania or the EU as a whole in the capitalist system tells us that there is in fact a diference between them. Romania might be capitalist but EU is imperialist. A romanian nationalist can support a war with a neighbouring nation if the national bourgeoisie finds that to its benefit. A european citizen can support the wiping of countries and peoples from the face of the earth, if the much more powerful and better armed european bourgeoisie finds that to its benefit.



Edit: So, out of curiosity I checked your tags. Farleft is an anarchist and Q a trotskyist?!?
So, so surpised!

[farleft]

As I said, move to the US. Everything you ever wanted and a black guy in power to boot.

As for me, yeah, I'd like to see the EU burn. I am narrow-mided like that.



Say that to Afghanistan or Chile.




In terms of capitalist superstructure, a guy born in Romania could be a romanian nationalist or a european citizen. Both identities arise as a result of capitalist relations of production so one can't be considered better. Your anti-nationalist stance is much less the outcome of thought and much more a pavlovian reflex. Be proud.

Of course, the relative positions of Romania or the EU as a whole in the capitalist system tells us that there is in fact a diference between them. Romania might be capitalist but EU is imperialist. A romanian nationalist can support a war with a neighbouring nation if the national bourgeoisie finds that to its benefit. A european citizen can support the wiping of countries and peoples from the face of the earth, if the much more powerful and better armed european bourgeoisie finds that to its benefit.



Edit: So, out of curiosity I checked your tags. Farleft is an anarchist and Q a trotskyist?!?
So, so surpised!

You misunderstand me, when I say it has nothing to do with the EU, I mean as an organisation, we all accept that capitalism is killing countries around the world but it has no bearing on the EU, this happens anyway, with or without the EU.

As for the question directed towards "Q" If Romania doesnt exist anymore then you cant be a romanian nationalist or a nationalist at all as there is no longer that nation, imagine the EU spread around the whole world, there wouldnt be any nations, just one united planet.
The EU is less likely to go to war with a nation than say the US or the UK (or any individual member state) eventually there will no longer be 27 militaries, just one.

[The Deepest Red]

Environmental issues dont stick to man made borders so its best tackled by international organisations, co-operation is much more effective.

So basically in terms of how it effects workers and in general the working class, there is a negligable difference, only that these workers can now move from somewhere where they would be paid £3.50 an hour to somewhere where they will get £5.75 an hour (just one example).

I am not saying that the EU is fantastic and obviously as anti-capitalists we strive for a system of real equality but then most leftists accept that capitalism is a much better system to live under than feudalism! So I personally feel it should be accepted as a step in the right direction but seriously in need of improving and moving to a socialist europe.

Despite slight improvements on certain issues the EU nevertheless represents an attempt to undercut certain democratic gains made by European workers over the past century or so and to further concentrate political, economic and military power within the region so as to enable competition with other major power blocs such as Russia, China, and India etc.

The erosion of nationalist sentiments in some member-states is merely a by-product of this process in my opinion. "Europeanism" just happens to suit the modern European bourgeoisie in the context of a more 'globalised' world with emergent powers coming from other regions threatening traditional spheres of influence such as sub-Saharan Africa. It's also largely an illusion as the UK, Germany and France still largely dominate affairs.

[farleft]

Fair enough but if we take as an example the working time directive, the EU introduces it as "law" and the UK opts out, meaning UK workers can work more than 48 hours a week.

How does that fit in with the gains made by European workers? EU doing something good for workers and the UK screwing us.

The EU is no worse than any individual country, if anything surely it has to be better as for the reasons mentioned in other posts.

[FSL]

You misunderstand me, when I say it has nothing to do with the EU, I mean as an organisation, we all accept that capitalism is killing countries around the world but it has no bearing on the EU, this happens anyway, with or without the EU.

As for the question directed towards "Q" If Romania doesnt exist anymore then you cant be a romanian nationalist or a nationalist at all as there is no longer that nation, imagine the EU spread around the whole world, there wouldnt be any nations, just one united planet.
The EU is less likely to go to war with a nation than say the US or the UK (or any individual member state) eventually there will no longer be 27 militaries, just one.


EU isn't merely an organization, continued integration turns it into a state, even if it is a 21st century model of a state where counties have cultural differences and a degree of independence. Getting rid of romanian or whatever nationalists only to replace them with a sense of european identity brought to everyone by school, media ano other bourgeois institutions is just the same.
Saying EU is less likely to go to war is just wishful thinking.


And for the part I put in bold: please stop.

[Tatarin]

And in the end, the people in Europe would only have to fight one state, not 50 states.

[farleft]

EU isn't merely an organization, continued integration turns it into a state, even if it is a 21st century model of a state where counties have cultural differences and a degree of independence. Getting rid of romanian or whatever nationalists only to replace them with a sense of european identity brought to everyone by school, media ano other bourgeois institutions is just the same.
Saying EU is less likely to go to war is just wishful thinking.


And for the part I put in bold: please stop.

It's a realistic potential for the far future, these are just the steps in that direction.
I notice you didnt refute that the EU is no worse than a nation state and if anything is better as unlike the labour government in the UK they are actually trying to support employment rights.

[FSL]

It's a realistic potential for the far future, these are just the steps in that direction.
I notice you didnt refute that the EU is no worse than a nation state and if anything is better as unlike the labour government in the UK they are actually trying to support employment rights.


If labor is less worker friendly than EU then that's the british working class' fault. EU legislation is the cause of every backward law voted in the past many many years where I live.

And if you really hope that this is a way for the whole world to unite and you are serious about it, then good for you. I still think you're out of your mind. As in way way out.

[farleft]

EU legislation is the cause of every backward law voted in the past many many years where I live.

No it isn't.

Greece is backward anyway because it has an inefficient government bureaucracy and widespread corruption. In Greece you can get away with anything if you know the right people.
I don't expect things to change now you have a different government.

[FSL]

No it isn't.

Greece is backward anyway because it has an inefficient government bureaucracy and widespread corruption. In Greece you can get away with anything if you know the right people.
I don't expect things to change now you have a different government.


"inefficient government bureaucracy and widespread corruption"

Anything to serve the capitalists. Yes, it is actually companies doing most of the bribing, who would expect.

And I talked about legislation. In Greece men retire at 65 and women at 60. This is about to change thanks to EU legislation. Getting my point or not? There was an 8 hour workday. It changed thanks to EU legislation. Now maybe? There was public and free of charge upper level education. Now there are colleges with tuition fees as well. That's about all the help you 're gonna get.


But hey, if we all voted for the Green Party, then all these would change!

[Crux]

Okay a few points
1) The EU is not capable of creating a "super state", instead as many has noted th EU has helped strengthen nationalism.

2)EVEN if the EU would suddenly become a super state, no, it is not better have "just one" state to *fight* than 50. The current military and industrial integration is not in any way to the benefit pf the working class, quite the contrary.

3)Opposing the EU does not make you a nationalist or place you in the same camp as nationalists, having illusions in EU being a step towards uniting europe, however, means having illusions in that what the Eurocrats and their corporate backers says are true.

4)certainly the EU is not the end of the world, and, again this does not mean that one should take a softer position on one's own government, as some anti-EU movements have done. As internationalists we should have no problem getting beyond that stumbling block. Of course some of the reformist and Stalinist left have failed in this pretty well. This false dilemma can and should be overcome.

and finally, the collapse of the EU is more likely than either the semi-conspiratorial ideas of a "super state" or the naive reformist belief that it is a "stepping stone" towards a united socialist europe.

[Sfantu]

I`m from Romania ... and I`m not against a European Uninon but when it engages in the way of life of member countries citizens it just makes me go mad . I hate the guy who invented the law which makes illegal the slaughtering of pigs ... you now have to electrocute them, at least legally . thank god i live in Romania and policeman and people have something better things to do than to se who is slaughtering and who is not. :D.

I also think that the more developed EU countries are not really fair to the people in the less developed countries because they did n`t let people get jobs in their countries this was adopted only last year in some countries and i think in some they are still not allowed yet.

At the end i would realy like to know what the EU union is realy about ... is it about each nation or does it want to act like a hole.
Because if it still goes in the current direction "United in diversity" than i don`t know how much it will last and how much unity there will be in the future

[FSL]

Okay a few points
1) The EU is not capable of creating a "super state", instead as many has noted th EU has helped strengthen nationalism.



At best it has made the vocal minority of nationalists a bit more vocal and pushed the main parties in copying some of the talk. At any time when "defending national independence" or anything like that would be relevant, governments decided that the interests of the bourgeoisie are better served with more integration, not less. Even tories went out and said that now that the Lisbon treaty is ratified, it can't change, didn't they?




At the end i would realy like to know what the EU union is realy about ...


It's about rich capitalists and whatever they think will help them get richer.

[Crux]

At best it has made the vocal minority of nationalists a bit more vocal and pushed the main parties in copying some of the talk. At any time when "defending national independence" or anything like that would be relevant, governments decided that the interests of the bourgeoisie are better served with more integration, not less. Even tories went out and said that now that the Lisbon treaty is ratified, it can't change, didn't they?





It's about rich capitalists and whatever they think will help them get richer.Well, bourgeoisie international solidarity is hardly something they won't negotiate on, i. e. when push comes to shove a national bourgeoisie will rather serve their own interests than transnational interests.

[FSL]

Well, bourgeoisie international solidarity is hardly something they won't negotiate on, i. e. when push comes to shove a national bourgeoisie will rather serve their own interests than transnational interests.


But these things don't remain unchanged. What constitutes a national bourgoisie today? That pathetic little man with a diner? People that needed the new markets to buy materials or sell products thought of a union decades before. That was a conscious choise to pursuit their own interests and not care for the average capitalist of their country who 'd have more competition and would be unable to reap profits in the same fashion.
I'd say that at this point the stronger side is a still-forming european rulling class, consisting mainly but not solely of german and french capitalists. The big wallets from every other country seem to be finding that, at least for the moment, this is the alliance that helps them get the most.
This can go on or take a different course in the future, either collapsing or expanding. But at this point, nationalism in the old sense is pretty much in the sidelines.

[Q]

FSL, I think your petty nationalism really shows. You are the one who is "out of your mind". I quote a bit from the previously linked article to show what position Marx and Engels had on the issue by contrast:


When Marx and Engels started their political careers, Germany was a nation but not a state - it was divided into squabbling princedoms, some tiny and some relatively powerful. They argued consistently for the ‘one and indivisible republic’, to unite the German states and with them the German masses. This was not out of any romantic, Volk nationalism, but in the interests ultimately of the unity of the workers across Europe.mphasis added.

The same point runs parallel today with the EU.

No, the EU cannot provide genuine unification (as the same articles points out quite clearly by the way), but as communists we shouldn't retreat into nationalism when fighting the EU, but instead fight for a superseding alternative!

Yes to the European republic as a first stepping stone to the united World republic! This should be a basic socialist demand and I don't understand what the fuss about it is.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The current solution for the UK would be some workers' party (Q: either BWP or PNNC) affiliated with the Party of the European Left.

[Q]

The current solution for the UK would be some workers' party (Q: either BWP or PNNC) affiliated with the Party of the European Left.
Yes, although I would argue more for a united European Socialist Party, as opposed to a coalition of national parties.

[FSL]

No, the EU cannot provide genuine unification (as the same articles points out quite clearly by the way), but as communists we shouldn't retreat into nationalism when fighting the EU, but instead fight for a superseding alternative!

Yes to the European republic as a first stepping stone to the united World republic! This should be a basic socialist demand and I don't understand what the fuss about it is.


So, breaking away to start building socialism if a country's working class wishes to do so is reactionary and nationalistic while staying in EU, enforcing all its directives and fighting for the brighter day to come is progressive.

Nah, I think my plan means bigger salaries so I'm sticking with it.

PS. Don't add "!" after stating any political goal, it's a forum not a revolutionary speech.

[Crux]

FSL, I think your petty nationalism really shows. You are the one who is "out of your mind". I quote a bit from the previously linked article to show what position Marx and Engels had on the issue by contrast:

mphasis added.

The same point runs parallel today with the EU.

No, the EU cannot provide genuine unification (as the same articles points out quite clearly by the way), but as communists we shouldn't retreat into nationalism when fighting the EU, but instead fight for a superseding alternative!

Yes to the European republic as a first stepping stone to the united World republic! This should be a basic socialist demand and I don't understand what the fuss about it is.
While I of course share the basic sentiement, I don't see why the Eu would be a stepping stone in that direction.

[Crux]

So, breaking away to start building socialism if a country's working class wishes to do so is reactionary and nationalistic while staying in EU, enforcing all its directives and fighting for the brighter day to come is progressive.

Nah, I think my plan means bigger salaries so I'm sticking with it.

PS. Don't add "!" after stating any political goal, it's a forum not a revolutionary speech.
Greece leaving the EU isn't necessarily a step towards socialism either, of course.

[FSL]

Greece leaving the EU isn't necessarily a step towards socialism either, of course.


Well, doh! Leaving specificly because workers got in power and nationalizing businesses goes against eu freemarket laws however does.


It didn't cross my mind I'd have to made it that spesific -there are no capitalist parties here wanting out- but now I see it could seem like siding with conservatives to people from elsewhere.

[Q]

Greece leaving the EU isn't necessarily a step towards socialism either, of course.
Socialism in one country never results in socialism, of course.

[FSL]

Socialism in one country never results in socialism, of course.

Of course.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Yes, although I would argue more for a united European Socialist Party, as opposed to a coalition of national parties.

Perhaps I should have worded my suggestion as a "tactical solution" or something to the effect of being the proposal unless your proposal came forth. I picked affiliation with the lot of Euro-coms and Die Linke aficionados above the glorified fan club of the NPA in France for a reason.

[Q]

Perhaps I should have worded my suggestion as a "tactical solution" or something to the effect of being the proposal unless your proposal came forth. I picked affiliation with the lot of Euro-coms and Die Linke aficionados above the glorified fan club of the NPA in France for a reason.
Why are Euro-communists worth the bother at all? And what reason is there to avoid the NPA "fan club"? (whatever that may be)

[farleft]

"inefficient government bureaucracy and widespread corruption"

Anything to serve the capitalists. Yes, it is actually companies doing most of the bribing, who would expect.

And I talked about legislation. In Greece men retire at 65 and women at 60. This is about to change thanks to EU legislation. Getting my point or not? There was an 8 hour workday. It changed thanks to EU legislation. Now maybe? There was public and free of charge upper level education. Now there are colleges with tuition fees as well. That's about all the help you 're gonna get.


But hey, if we all voted for the Green Party, then all these would change!

I'm not going to resort to personal insults but I have a very low opinion of you.

In terms of the working time directive (WTD) the EU does not have authority, individual nations do, the EU tried to get in a 48 hour week but nations (like the UK) opted out of this, so although we dont generally work longer, if we sign a peice of paper with our employers we can basicaly work any amount of hours.

I quote from a Greek site (http://english.capital.gr): "The 48-hour week will thus be undermined by the opt-out rights of employers. The working week will have a limit of 60 hours (calculated on a three-month basis), except if social partners decide otherwise."


The retirement age is 65, it was 65 and will continue to be 65.
See here (http://www.journalonline.co.uk/News/1006292.aspx)
However the Greek government has attacked pensions and retirement issues themselves meaning greeks wont e able to take EARLY-retirement.
See here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7306139.stm)

You didnt contradict me about "knowing the right people" speeding fines etc being torn up becase you know the right person or planning permission granted if you know the right guy etc. Sure it is big business too, that happens in every country, those with money can "persuade" those in authority.

In future when trying to get over your point of view it adds to your case and credibility if you provide sources that back up or prove what you are saying to be correct.

[farleft]

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_Treaty) there is a good table which shows a bit clearer what the EU has authority over, what it has shared authority over with the member states and what it can only support. Its towards the bottom.

[The Deepest Red]

No, the EU cannot provide genuine unification (as the same articles points out quite clearly by the way), but as communists we shouldn't retreat into nationalism when fighting the EU, but instead fight for a superseding alternative!

Yes to the European republic as a first stepping stone to the united World republic! This should be a basic socialist demand and I don't understand what the fuss about it is.

I think the "NO" campaign here in Ireland showed how difficult getting such a message across to working people can be. The Minister for Finance, Brian Lenihan, said small left-wing groups like CWI and SWP would turn Ireland into a "socialist bunker" if they got their way, and that was pretty much the message from the media too.

[FSL]

I'm not going to resort to personal insults but I have a very low opinion of you.



You didnt contradict me about "knowing the right people" speeding fines etc being torn up becase you know the right person or planning permission granted if you know the right guy etc.

I'm hurt by your opinion of me.


the EU tried to get in a 48 hour week


Which is 8 more hours than what we had more than a century ago in the west and in my country since the 1930s.



The retirement age is 65, it was 65 and will continue to be 65.


It will be 65 for women as well as men now. I like how you pointed that out, you obviously bothered reading what I posted.



You didnt contradict me about "knowing the right people" speeding fines etc being torn up becase you know the right person or planning permission granted if you know the right guy etc.

It is true but it is also irrelevant to EU anti-worker legislation and neoliberal policies.

[farleft]

Are you saying that there should be a difference for men and women? No equality? Personally i'd like to see it a lot lower but I would but male and female retirement ages as the same.
And of course I bothered reading your post, wouldnt be much of a debate otherwise lol
The working week is still predominantly down to the individuals contract with their employer, the WTD is in place so that employers cant exceed that limit. For example the most common work schedule is still 9-5 mon-fri (this is 37.5 hours per week) again the WTD is just to limit employers exceeding that (though as stated before nations can opt out, such as the UK).

[Revy]

It goes along with the myth of the progressive national bourgeoisie, so we find the left nonetheless deciding that a national bourgeoisie is more progressive than one united around many nations, somehow forgetting the history of "independent" colonial and WW1/WW2 eras that preceded the foundation of the EU.

Saying that the EU is capitalist is just obvious. We live in a capitalist system. Regional unions are inevitable though they will eventually merge into a world union. This would be progressive even under capitalism because it would help dissolve borders and lead to the end of the concept of the nation-state. Instead, the EU is seen as some kind of conspiracy, some kind of mini-NWO. Yeah, make your national bourgeoisie look progressive! They love you and your interests.....don't they?:rolleyes:

[Crux]

It goes along with the myth of the progressive national bourgeoisie, so we find the left nonetheless deciding that a national bourgeoisie is more progressive than one united around many nations, somehow forgetting the history of "independent" colonial and WW1/WW2 eras that preceded the foundation of the EU.

Saying that the EU is capitalist is just obvious. We live in a capitalist system. Regional unions are inevitable though they will eventually merge into a world union. This would be progressive even under capitalism because it would help dissolve borders and lead to the end of the concept of the nation-state. Instead, the EU is seen as some kind of conspiracy, some kind of mini-NWO. Yeah, make your national bourgeoisie look progressive! They love you and your interests.....don't they?:rolleyes:
Ok, I may be repeating myself but no the Eu does not end the concept of nationstates, it might create more effective all-european repression though. So explain to me why this is a good thing. EU is not just "another capitalist" problem, there's no need for intellectual lazyness.

[Crux]

I think the "NO" campaign here in Ireland showed how difficult getting such a message across to working people can be. The Minister for Finance, Brian Lenihan, said small left-wing groups like CWI and SWP would turn Ireland into a "socialist bunker" if they got their way, and that was pretty much the message from the media too.
Shows what they know, pretty much.

[FSL]

It goes along with the myth of the progressive national bourgeoisie, so we find the left nonetheless deciding that a national bourgeoisie is more progressive than one united around many nations


Absolutely incapable of grasping the simplest concept. Enjoy Frontex and the lack of borders.

[Tatarin]

1) The EU is not capable of creating a "super state", instead as many has noted th EU has helped strengthen nationalism.

If you base the increase of nationalism on the recent EUP elections, then you must also take into account the "world crisis". Just as in every crisis, nationalist parties are the winners.

Besides that, the nationalists are not as big and powerful, and I'll even say that they have no strong basis. In Eastern Europe, the nationalists are the only alternative who are vocal and who are "caring for the people" versus both "blue" and "red" parties who are filled with corruption.


2)EVEN if the EU would suddenly become a super state, no, it is not better have "just one" state to *fight* than 50. The current military and industrial integration is not in any way to the benefit pf the working class, quite the contrary.

No one is saying that the EU will become a working class utopia. But the same thing can be said about 50 national states, none of which support the working class now either.


3)Opposing the EU does not make you a nationalist or place you in the same camp as nationalists, having illusions in EU being a step towards uniting europe, however, means having illusions in that what the Eurocrats and their corporate backers says are true.

It is true that Europe will be united, however not in the same way we want it to be united. Again, the EU may just be digging its own, and the nationalists grave.


and finally, the collapse of the EU is more likely than either the semi-conspiratorial ideas of a "super state" or the naive reformist belief that it is a "stepping stone" towards a united socialist europe.

That many countries now share the same currency is not a semi-conspiracy. It is what the European ruling class wants. If the nationalist pressure arises, then maybe. Or maybe there will be a revolution in a country, which will be very positive. But right now the growth of the EU is a fact.

[Soldier of life]

I think the "NO" campaign here in Ireland showed how difficult getting such a message across to working people can be. The Minister for Finance, Brian Lenihan, said small left-wing groups like CWI and SWP would turn Ireland into a "socialist bunker" if they got their way, and that was pretty much the message from the media too.



I didn't see much SWP stuff on Lisbon tbh, thoughI must say well done to eirigi and SP for some of their literature and posters, because they made it clear not only did they object ot Lisbon, but they objected to the whole way the EU manifested itself and was run from top to bottom. It is typical of SWP to not go the whole hog and to play on populism. For instance I think Boyd-Baretts vote in Dun Laoighre isn't a vote for socialism really, while Joe Higgins on the other hand makes no secret of what he is or what he stands for and this is to be commended.

[Revy]

Absolutely incapable of grasping the simplest concept. Enjoy Frontex and the lack of borders.

I'll ignore the insult and get right to the point.

The immigration debate among Eurosceptics (in the UK, for example) revolves around keeping "Fortress Britain" in place.

Certain sections of the left opportunistically copied the rhetoric and said that the EU was bad because it allowed for foreign workers to take the jobs of British workers.

Newsflash: Euroscepticism is a dead-end for the left. It offers no class analysis and leads you right into nationalist rhetoric about "sovereignty" and immigration.

Nowhere did I say that the EU was committed to progressive things. I think the left should stand up and fight against those in charge of the EU just as they would those in their own countries, but why fight against the concept of the EU itself? It's an utterly useless tactic, and plays right into the hands of the right.