Thousands of Bangladeshi people turn area around garment factory into battleground

[cyu]

Excerpts from http://libcom.org/news/3-dead-garment-workers-clashes-unions-promised-new-role-04112009

http://libcom.org/files/imagecache/article/images/news/RMG%20women%20-%20Bangla.jpg

several hundred workers turned up at the gates of the Nippon Garment Factory... expecting to work and to receive wage arrears owed them. Instead they found police blocking the entrance - and posted on the gates a note informing them that the factory was shut... The notice also asked workers to collect their overdue wages from the factory office on November 10 - though the arrears were 3 months late and workers had been promised payment would be made that day.

the mainly female workers then tried to force their way into the factory... (Expecting trouble, the factory bosses had requested police be stationed inside the premises on Friday night.)

As more workers and locals from the surrounding slum areas joined the protest the crowd grew to several thousand and moved to block the main Dhaka-Mymensingh Highway. The road remained blocked for the next 5 hours as the area became a battleground.

hundreds of police and para-military law enforcement personnel poured into the area. Police began firing gunshots and teargas shells while workers responded with bricks and barricades.

Three people were shot dead by cops, with 100 others injured, several with bullet wounds. Included in the casualties were 16 policemen (one in a critical condition).

[Irish commie]

very interesting, met with the usual oppresion by the police but good to see militancy amongst bangladeshi working class.

[red cat]

What was the leading organization?

[bcbm]

i don't think there is one.


There has long been a conflict of interest within the Bangladeshi ruling class on RMG labour relations. A substantial number of MPs in both main parties, the ruling Awami League and opposition Bangladeshi National Party, have business interests in the RMG sector - as investors or factory owners. Since the emergence of the industry in the early 1980s they have, despite recurring labour unrest, seen the profits roll in as markets expanded and have seen little need to concede any major concessions in the form of wage rises, working conditions or union representation. But the more far-sighted of the ruling class, aware of the potential vulnerability of the industry (and often with less immediate business interests to protect), have long called for wide-spread trade union representation to be introduced as a stabilising institutional influence. If workers are paid less than the cost of their own self-reproduction something eventually has to give. The explosive anger of RMG workers is clearly expressed in recent news footage as they describe the hardships they endure and how they are cheated out of what are already some of the lowest wages in the world.


The unions have themselves admitted that their influence among RMG workers is marginal and that they have little or no influence over the regular disturbances; they have often functioned more like NGO's, providing charitable and legal services, international lobbying etc rather than actual negotiation/mediation of workplace conflicts between workers and bosses. (In fact some union-type organisations were set up by western NGO's - and NGO's have sometimes themselves taken on certain union-type functions.) But all this may be about to change. In the aftermath of the Tongi clashes and similar recent unrest, the government has announced it will introduce trade unions in the garment sector.

The class struggle and the forms it takes has developed largely autonomously in the industry, with little institutional mediation.

[red cat]

i don't think there is one.

That is quite unlikely. Considering the huge number of workers who took part, and the presence of revolutionary communist parties in Bangladesh, it might be some organization that wants to keep a low profile right now. The workers in the photos also have red flags, which is unexpected for an organization-less movement.

Anyway, a big, big Lal Salaam to all those heroic workers!

[bcbm]

i don't think being organized has to mean the same thing as being led by an organization, but without further details it is difficult to say either way.

[red cat]

Another point: Any female-worker will also commonly have her husband working at the same factory. If they are not led by some political organization, these protests generally do not have women participating in them, due to traditional feudal-patriarchal norms. But here you can see that many women are in the front-line of protesters.

[Niccolò Rossi]

I read this article yesterday and contemplated posting it here. Thanks for doing it for me, cyu.

In my understanding this struggle is of major significance. In 2006 we saw very similar events when garment workers went on wildcat strike. (http://en.internationalism.org/ci/2006/workers-revolt-in-bangladesh)

Does anyone have any more recent information form the ground? Alot will change in the space of days and the article is already out of date in that respect.

Also, I'd be interesting in hearing the responses of our resident union backers to the comments of the article on the role of the unions in the struggle.

EDIT: Cyu, why did you choose to retitle the article? The original title of the article (thankfully) is not: 'Thousands of Bangladeshi people turn area around garment factory into battleground'. It is titled: 'Three dead in garment workers' clashes - unions promised new role'. I think it's a pretty poor effort.

[scarletghoul]

Lets hope this escalates into a larger class struggle and eventual victory for the people. There's been a load of workers' discontent in Bangladesh recently, it just needs to be coordinated.

[cyu]

But here you can see that many women are in the front-line of protesters.

From the article:
"the mainly female workers then tried to force their way into the factory"

...so it would make sense if most of the employees involved were women, it would be women on the front lines.

[cyu]

Cyu, why did you choose to retitle the article? The original title of the article (thankfully) is not: 'Thousands of Bangladeshi people turn area around garment factory into battleground'. It is titled: 'Three dead in garment workers' clashes - unions promised new role'. I think it's a pretty poor effort.

What don't you like about my title? I can tell you what I don't like about the original title:

While I agree that it is good to mention the brutality of the minions of capitalists, it doesn't mention the fact that very large numbers of people are ready and willing to fight back against them... even people not directly involved in the dispute.

Also I'm suspicious of the unions they are bringing in - how representative of the employees will they be? Is their main purpose truly to represent the employees, or is their main purpose to serve as a buffer, so that the employees don't chase the capitalists out of the area entirely?

[Pogue]

man thats fucking insane, 3 people dead and all, fair play to our fellow workin class ppl in bangladesh

[Prairie Fire]

Not to morbidly trivialize or over-look the deaths of workers in this strike, but I still am very pleased to see this.

[red cat]

Also I'm suspicious of the unions they are bringing in - how representative of the employees will they be? Is their main purpose truly to represent the employees, or is their main purpose to serve as a buffer, so that the employees don't chase the capitalists out of the area entirely?

Generally all the big unions are affiliated to some parliamentary party or the other. These will be the ones that are to be sent in, and they will pacify the workers, raise some small issues, and help to redirect the workers' rage to increase votes for their respective mother-parties. If they manage to break down the movement completely, they will also act as informers in identifying any worker who played a prominant role in organizing this event so that they can be hunted down by the cops or local goons.

[Rjevan]

R.I.P. to the three comrades who died, a tragic loss.
But it is great to see that the Bangladeshi workers offered resistance to the capitalist arbitrariness - arrivining at the factory to see it is closed and guarded by police because the miserable cowards who own the factory dare not to face the workers without the help of their little lap dogs?
Solidarity!

[Niccolò Rossi]

What don't you like about my title?

My problem is the subsitution of 'garment workers' with 'Bangladeshi people'!


Also I'm suspicious of the unions they are bringing in - how representative of the employees will they be? Is their main purpose truly to represent the employees, or is their main purpose to serve as a buffer, so that the employees don't chase the capitalists out of the area entirely?

I think the article states a position (the correct one) on the question quite clearly. What do you think about what the article has to say on this?

[cyu]

My problem is the subsitution of 'garment workers' with 'Bangladeshi people'!



Well, originally it was hundreds of garment workers who wanted back pay. Then after police attacked, thousands of other people showed up to defend the garment workers. Maybe those thousands were also garment workers, but I can't tell from the article (maybe I didn't read carefully enough).



I think the article states a position (the correct one) on the question quite clearly. What do you think about what the article has to say on this?


Sure - since I consider myself an anarcho-syndicalist and libcom.org is basically an anarcho-syndicalist website, there really isn't all that much disagreement in terms of our goals. However, the headline itself sort of implies that bringing in the unions they are planning to bring in is something that will solve all their problems - while the actual writer of the headline may not have that opinion, I didn't feel like having that interpretation in the post I was making.

What's the big deal about a headline anyway? Are you trying to defend copyright or something?

[Devrim]

Sure - since I consider myself an anarcho-syndicalist and libcom.org is basically an anarcho-syndicalist website, there really isn't all that much disagreement in terms of our goals.

That would be news to Catch and Steven who are two of the people who run it. Some of the people who run Libcom are anarchosyndicalists. Others aren't. I don't think you can describe it as 'basically an anarcho-syndicalist'.


However, the headline itself sort of implies that bringing in the unions they are planning to bring in is something that will solve all their problems - while the actual writer of the headline may not have that opinion, I didn't feel like having that interpretation in the post I was making.

Well no, it doesn't imply that at all to me. I am certain that the writer of the article didn't think that either.

Devrim

[Ret]

As the author of the article, some comments and corrections;

1. The pic is not from the protest described in the article - I couldn't find one that was any good, so used that one from another recent demo. But the presence of banners/red flags only proves that organisations attend such disturbances sometimes, not that they organise them. 'Spontaneous' workers' responses to bosses' attacks/wage rip offs/lockouts etc are common and the responses are based on well established tactics of organisation, as described in the article. (Click the 'Bangladesh' tag on the article to read of many other similar clashes in the past 3 years.)

2. Is it so hard to believe that workers can organise their own struggles? Obviously the vanguardists choke on such an assumption. After military coups and repression in the 1970s most leftists dispersed into NGOs and similar channels - the remaining tiny left parties are extremely marginal in Bangladesh and have little connection to the working class. The unions have admitted themselves that they have no control over such disturbances, as I quoted last year;

Dozens of trade unions in the readymade garment (RMG) sector are hardly in any position to resolve recurrent labour unrests, as they have no control over workers at factory level due to inactivity of most workers' unions, observed trade union leaders.
According to some leaders, at present there are more than 28 registered trade unions and more than 13 unregistered trade unions in the RMG sector.
Of the 200 registered workers' union units at factory level, only 15 or so are active, the trade union leaders claimed.
As a result, the central trade union leaders do not have any proper means of intervention in the wake of any labour unrest, although the leaders are meant to play a major role in resolving labour unrest.
During the recent incidents of unrest, garment workers attacked many factories, but the trade union leaders could not communicate with the workers due to the absence of active workers' union units.
[...]
"We know we have a lot of responsibilities in the wake of any unrest in the industrial sector. But, sometimes we feel helpless as we have no control over the workers," said Amirul Haque Amin, secretary general of the National Garment Workers Federation (NGWF). (Daily Star, Sep 14 08)The NGWF seems to be the most grass roots union, most connected to garment workers on the ground - and even they admit little influence.

3. Sorry red cat, but your claim that cultural norms dictate that women only work in factories where their husbands also do is total fantasy - 80-90% of garment workers are female and many are young and unmarried and using their wage earning capacity to achieve some economic independence;

Over the past nine years, there has been a steady flow of rural women to Bangladesh's capital, Dhaka. Some 74 percent of the women employed in the city's garment factories--all of which are owned by men--are rural migrants. About 85 percent of garment factory workers in 2002 are women compared to just 28 percent in 1990, according to the Bangladesh Institute of Development Studies, Dhaka.

More significantly, over 60 percent of them are unmarried. (womensenews.org - July 2002)It's also untrue to say that Bangladeshi women only participate in protests that are organised by political organisations. But anyone who cared to read the article before commenting on it would know that this was not a pre-planned political demonstration but a response to workers being ripped off and locked out by bosses - ie, self-organised class struggle at a high level (rather than an event organised to sell lefty papers telling the workers how to organise their struggle).

4. The change of title is based on odd interpretation of the article - the article explicitly says that unions would be used to "contain" and limit the movement.

5. I'm not an admin, but I can safely say libcom.org is not "an anarcho-syndicalist site", but a libertarian communist one. Not all the admins would call themselves anarcho-syndicalist.

Edit; agree with Devrim's comments.

[red cat]

As the author of the article, some comments and corrections;

1. The pic is not from the protest described in the article - I couldn't find one that was any good, so used that one from another recent demo. But the presence of banners/red flags only proves that organisations attend such disturbances sometimes, not that they organise them. 'Spontaneous' workers' responses to bosses' attacks/wage rip offs/lockouts etc are common and the responses are based on well established tactics of organisation, as described in the article. (Click the 'Bangladesh' tag on the article to read of many other similar clashes in the past 3 years.)

2. Is it so hard to believe that workers can organise their own struggles? Obviously the vanguardists choke on such an assumption. After military coups and repression in the 1970s most leftists dispersed into NGOs and similar channels - the remaining tiny left parties are extremely marginal in Bangladesh and have little connection to the working class. The unions have admitted themselves that they have no control over such disturbances, as I quoted last year;
The NGWF seems to be the most grass roots union, most connected to garment workers on the ground - and even they admit little influence.



At least I have never heard of such a big spontaneous workers' movement in a third world country, though there have been cases of spontaneous violent peasants' movements after the ruling class initiated the violence. But I never said that these movements are impossible.

There are Maoist parties in Bangladesh that are carrying out PPW.




3. Sorry red cat, but your claim that cultural norms dictate that women only work in factories where their husbands also do is total fantasy - 80-90% of garment workers are female and many are young and unmarried and using their wage earning capacity to achieve some economic independence;
It's also untrue to say that Bangladeshi women only participate in protests that are organised by political organisations. But anyone who cared to read the article before commenting on it would know that this was not a pre-planned political demonstration but a response to workers being ripped off and locked out by bosses - ie, self-organised class struggle at a high level (rather than an event organised to sell lefty papers telling the workers how to organise their struggle).



In this point I was wrong. Women indeed constitute the vast majority of garment workers. But what I mean to say is that traditional feudal norms often forbid women to participate in protests etc, unless some parliamentary party uses them for increasing their vote-bank. This case might have been an exception, but as far as I know, in most spontaneous protests, majority are men.

[Niccolò Rossi]

Well, originally it was hundreds of garment workers who wanted back pay. Then after police attacked, thousands of other people showed up to defend the garment workers. Maybe those thousands were also garment workers, but I can't tell from the article (maybe I didn't read carefully enough).

I can understand your point here. I still think there are very unnerving political implications of replacing 'workers' with 'Bangladeshi people' and that the substitution is unjustified.


libcom.org is basically an anarcho-syndicalist website

I don't think it is at all.

It should be noted though, this article was written by a libcom user: Ret Marut.


However, the headline itself sort of implies that bringing in the unions they are planning to bring in is something that will solve all their problems

My impression was the opposite. I suppose its a matter of the target audience. I understood the point of the auther perfectly, as would the libcom crowd. Obviously this is different fro you.

[Ret]

Redcat; you seem to be judging Bangladeshi garment worker struggles by the standards of an archaic 3rd world peasant society and all participants in protests by the same standards. But the garment industry is an urban industry and the dominant one in the country, around which the whole economy revolves. It is certainly not part of a "feudal" economy - the workers are modern industrial proletarians. The female workforce actually escapes some of the repressive cultural norms you describe by moving from the villages to the industrial zone; the degree of economic independence they achieve is hated by Islamic fundamentalists, who have attacked female garment workers and organisations offering aid to them.

The maoist 'PP War' activities in Bangladesh are extremely marginal guerilla activities, unconnected and irrelevant to garment workers' struggles.

[red cat]

Redcat; you seem to be judging Bangladeshi garment worker struggles by the standards of an archaic 3rd world peasant society and all participants in protests by the same standards. But the garment industry is an urban industry and the dominant one in the country, around which the whole economy revolves. It is certainly not part of a "feudal" economy - the workers are modern industrial proletarians. The female workforce actually escapes some of the repressive cultural norms you describe by moving from the villages to the industrial zone; the degree of economic independence they achieve is hated by Islamic fundamentalists, who have attacked female garment workers and organisations offering aid to them.

That is why I never nullified the possibility of such things happening. Being aware of the feudal culture of Bangladesh I just said that the probability was low.






The maoist 'PP War' activities in Bangladesh are extremely marginal guerilla activities, unconnected and irrelevant to garment workers' struggles.

I doubt how marginalised they are. They have been growing fast. Also, Maoist parties maintain clandestine organizations among workers, so you can't really say that.

[Ret]

No, don't take my word for it, 'socialist', investigate it yourself - though your response implies you don't have any evidence suggesting what I say is wrong, but that you still prefer to think of maoism as eternally and universally popular. But my 'evidence' is the lack of evidence to support your claim; in over 3 years of daily reading of Bangladeshi papers I only vaguely remember a couple of mentions of them, and then I think only for some activity in remote areas. Nor have I seen them mentioned by other local leftists or by right-wing intelligence monitoring sites, all indicating they have no presence or impact in popular consciousness or in struggles. Politically knowledgeable Bangladeshis I have talked to don't mention them as being of any consequence. Maybe they have some presence in some remote rural corner, but so what? Neither have I ever seen them mentioned by their Nepali Maoist neighbours (who, when in government, proposed a ban on strikes). It's easy to big yourself up to look like a radical 'presence' for Western 3rd worldist cheerleaders on the other side of the world; but maybe you know of some convincing evidence? - beyond some jargonistic communique cooked up by student radicals on a rainy day and posted on the net, that is.

As for red cat's comment that maoists secretly insert themselves inside workers' movements, so therefore we can never deny their existence or we have to assume they are there even with no evidence - well that just reminds me of those quasi-religious pictures of an omnipotent Mao shining down from the sky on the masses over the whole land like a God. In 25+ years of garment workers' struggles no evidence of maoist influence has come to light - but if you need to believe in ghosts, I doubt assessing available evidence will stop you... Maybe they've "clandestinely" taken over the TUC too. This vanguardist attitude mirrors the ruling class outlook I mentioned in the article, where, in the aftermath of mass working class struggles, the state and bosses blame it on outside agitators - to imply that workers are incapable of such effective self-organisation by themselves.

In any case this thread is about the self-organised class struggles of garment workers, not guerilla adventurism, real or imagined, or leftist parties who may suggest banning strikes when given the opportunity. Btw, why is this in the 'politics' section and not the 'workers struggles' forum?

[red cat]

No, don't take my word for it, 'socialist', investigate it yourself - though your response implies you don't have any evidence suggesting what I say is wrong, but that you still prefer to think of maoism as eternally and universally popular. But my 'evidence' is the lack of evidence to support your claim; in over 3 years of daily reading of Bangladeshi papers I only vaguely remember a couple of mentions of them, and then I think only for some activity in remote areas. Nor have I seen them mentioned by other local leftists or by right-wing intelligence monitoring sites, all indicating they have no presence or impact in popular consciousness or in struggles.

Generally the tactic adopted by governments to fight Maoist parties is to forbid the bourgeois press to mention them at the early stages of the revolution, so that military operations can take place without the broad masses having any clue of them. And most of the heaps of leftists found in third world countries are nothing more than revisionists, so we don't distinguish much between their information-bank and the bourgeois press.


Politically knowledgeable Bangladeshis I have talked to don't mention them as being of any consequence.Depends on the true class-outlook of the people you have talked to.



Maybe they have some presence in some remote rural corner, but so what? Neither have I ever seen them mentioned by their Nepali Maoist neighbours (who, when in government, proposed a ban on strikes).
Maoists have been described similarly in many previous posts in this forum. No, they are not as insignificant as you think. The guerrilla warfare that they are waging is quite well developed.

Maoists of both Nepal and India have mentioned and upheld the PPW in Bangladesh more than once in the past few years.



It's easy to big yourself up to look like a radical 'presence' for Western 3rd worldist cheerleaders on the other side of the world; but maybe you know of some convincing evidence? - beyond some jargonistic communique cooked up by student radicals on a rainy day and posted on the net, that is.You would better read more works by the Maoist communist parties of India and Nepal. Perhaps what you find out will be a little more trustworthy than "jargonistic communique cooked up by student radicals on a rainy day and posted on the net".



As for red cat's comment that maoists secretly insert themselves inside workers' movements, so therefore we can never deny their existence or we have to assume they are there even with no evidence - well that just reminds me of those quasi-religious pictures of an omnipotent Mao shining down from the sky on the masses over the whole land like a God. In 25+ years of garment workers' struggles no evidence of maoist influence has come to light - but if you need to believe in ghosts, I doubt assessing available evidence will stop you... Maybe they've "clandestinely" taken over the TUC too. This vanguardist attitude mirrors the ruling class outlook I mentioned in the article, where, in the aftermath of mass working class struggles, the state and bosses blame it on outside agitators - to imply that workers are incapable of such effective self-organisation by themselves.There is nothing to mock about the clandestine nature of true communist organizations. In many places we find quite unexpected Maoist uprisings. These are due to long periods of clandestine organization-building in the past.

One good example of this is the Nandigram anti-SEZ movement. The Indian government started suspecting Maoists after about six months the movement started, and confirmed their involvement after more than a year.



In any case this thread is about the self-organised class struggles of garment workers, not guerilla adventurism, real or imagined, or leftist parties who may suggest banning strikes when given the opportunity. Btw, why is this in the 'politics' section and not the 'workers struggles' forum?Guerrilla warfare is not adventurism. It is a necessary condition for the liberation of the third-world proletariat.

And yes, thank you for highlighting the claim that the UCPN(M) proposed a ban on strikes. Can you please provide a source for this, and preferably one that does not come from other self-proclaimed leftist tendencies? This is because generally when some true communist party proceeds to organize the masses to make revolution, other brands of leftists tend to become insignificant as their pseudo-revolutionary theories are exposed. So they go on a slandering-spree against communists.

[pranabjyoti]

As for red cat's comment that maoists secretly insert themselves inside workers' movements, so therefore we can never deny their existence or we have to assume they are there even with no evidence - well that just reminds me of those quasi-religious pictures of an omnipotent Mao shining down from the sky on the masses over the whole land like a God. In 25+ years of garment workers' struggles no evidence of maoist influence has come to light - but if you need to believe in ghosts, I doubt assessing available evidence will stop you... Maybe they've "clandestinely" taken over the TUC too. This vanguardist attitude mirrors the ruling class outlook I mentioned in the article, where, in the aftermath of mass working class struggles, the state and bosses blame it on outside agitators - to imply that workers are incapable of such effective self-organisation by themselves.
Man, most of the Maoist parties are now banned in India and other third world countries. By claiming yourself Maoist, you will certainly get an arrest for indefinite period. So, those workers, who are supporters of moist movement, certainly are not fools to make such steps. If you really want to know, then come and try to get as close as possible. Due to some demonic laws here, people are fearing to express themselves as Maoists even to their close neighbors.
CAN YOU INFORM US WHEN AND WHERE THE MAOIST PARTIES ARE CALLED ABOUT BANNING WORKERS STRIKES. If you can't find it now, better consult Comrade Alastair (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../member.php?u=15425). He had posted a lot of interesting good information about happenings in Nepal.

[mosfeld]

CAN YOU INFORM US WHEN AND WHERE THE MAOIST PARTIES ARE CALLED ABOUT BANNING WORKERS STRIKES.

His site (http://libcom.org/news/nepal-maoists-restate-intention-ban-strikes-other-news-10042009) has an article about it.

[pranabjyoti]

His site (http://libcom.org/news/nepal-maoists-restate-intention-ban-strikes-other-news-10042009) has an article about it.
How much this kind of websites can be believed? I read it, they haven't mentioned from where they got the news. If it is excerpted from any newspaper (certainly controlled by private ownership), then one can easily understand how ACCURATE they are?
If that is true, then the CPI(Maoist) party of India should mention that in their open letter to the CPN(M). And most important, if that was their intention, is it possible for them to gather such amount of support base around them at this time of need. I think the Nepali workers and common people are much more able to understand who and what is good for them better than some "self appointed workers struggle and interest" advocates.

[Ret]

How much this kind of websites can be believed?
At least as much as this one, I'd think. (Especially as it knows things about intended maoist strike bans that some revleft maoists were apparently ignorant of.)

I read it, they haven't mentioned from where they got the news.Read things properly before commenting - the quotes have their sources attached. Yes, they are bourgeois papers, but that doesn't invalidate all they say. (Pro-maoists are happy to quote them when its in their interests to do so.) The Maoists were quoted months apart in the media expressing the same intentions to ban strikes - they never issued any denial or claim of being misquoted after the first mentions nor the second. And, as you should already know, Nepali Maoists have never been slow to take aggressive action against newspapers who they feel misrepresent them. But there was a whole thread about the intended strike ban article on here some time ago (can't link as haven't posted enough), so if you wish go discuss it there rather than derail this one any further.

As for all your maoist fervour - still no actual evidence of your claims of the strength of Bangladeshi maoism, just more vague assertions. But that too is derailing this thread...

[cyu]

The change of title is based on odd interpretation of the article - the article explicitly says that unions would be used to "contain" and limit the movement.

It was more based on the headline itself - as for the article itself, I actually quite liked it. I thought the analysis was great, and better than even most of the other libcom.org articles, since often the others seem to parrot mainstream media analysis too much.


I can safely say libcom.org is not "an anarcho-syndicalist site", but a libertarian communist one. Not all the admins would call themselves anarcho-syndicalist.

Well, one would assume the "lib" stands for "libertarian" and the "com" stands for "communist" would it? Not that I want to start sectarian debate, but as far as I'm concerned pretty much everything libcom.org discusses meshes with anarcho-syndicalism. Maybe the fact that I call myself an anarcho-syndicalist while agreeing with libertarian communists just means I'm giving myself the wrong label.

I'm tempted to ask what criticisms libertarian communists have of anarcho-syndicalists, just for clarification purposes, but I really don't want to go down that road. The Trotskyist / Maoist / Leninist / Anarchist battles on this website usually bore me to death =]

[cyu]

there are very unnerving political implications of replacing 'workers' with 'Bangladeshi people' and that the substitution is unjustified.



Why do you find it unnerving? Aren't practically all people workers? About the only ones who aren't are the tiny minority of oppressive capitalists.

[Niccolò Rossi]

Why do you find it unnerving? Aren't practically all people workers? About the only ones who aren't are the tiny minority of oppressive capitalists.

Because it is ambiguous. Maoists love word 'people' and 'masses' because it corresponds to their class collaborationist politics - a blanket term for what ever proletarian, peasant, lumpen, petit-bourgeois and bourgeois factions deemed convenient at the time.

[Devrim]

I'm tempted to ask what criticisms libertarian communists have of anarcho-syndicalists, just for clarification purposes, but I really don't want to go down that road. The Trotskyist / Maoist / Leninist / Anarchist battles on this website usually bore me to death =]

Anarcho-syndicalists are libertarian communists. However, libertarian communist is a much wider descriptive term than anarcho-syndicalist, and includes many people who are not anarcho-syndicalists.


Because it is ambiguous. Maoists love word 'people' and 'masses' because it corresponds to their class collaborationist politics - a blanket term for what ever proletarian, peasant, lumpen, petit-bourgeois and bourgeois factions deemed convenient at the time.

Nic is very right here CYU. Usually when you here talk of 'people' you should expect some sort of Maoism.

Devrim

[red cat]

You guys forgot to mention the insignificant anti-worker murderous mountain-roaming gangs part. I love it when you include that one in your slandering. :D

[red cat]

As for all your maoist fervour - still no actual evidence of your claims of the strength of Bangladeshi maoism, just more vague assertions. But that too is derailing this thread...

Here are some useful links on the topic. Some of these are about five years old. As of now all we know about Bangladeshi Maoists is that they are facing state-onslaught, which explains why there have been no web-updates by themselves. But the several parties have probably managed to unify. Also, their military strength is increasing.



SITUATION OF THE MAOIST MOVEMENT IN BANGLADESH

- Pronab

PBSP (CC)

Bangladesh have a glorious heritage of Maoist movements. In the 60’s influenced by the historic struggle against Khrushchevite revisionism and the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution (GPCR) in China led by comrade Mao Tse Tung, a Maoist movement took shape in Bangladesh too. Influence of the upraising of Naxalbari of India also rendered encouragement to it. Due to various weaknesses the movement built on the basis of the third stage of proletarian class ideology – Maoism (then it was called Mao Tse Tung Thought, MTT) was divided into different centers from the very beginning. Based on Mao Tse Tung Thought these organizations built armed struggles against imperialism, expansionism and their agents, the ruling classes of this country, according to their own line. Proletarian Party of East Bengal (Purbo Banglar Sharbohara Party, PBSP) established a base area in Peyara Bagan of Barisal district in 1971. Communist Party of East Bangal (ML) [CPEB (ML)] built a strong armed struggle in Atrai of Rajshahi district. Besides, in the early 70’s under the leadership of these organizations and Bangladesher Shammyabadi Dal (ML) [BSD (ML)] and EPCP (ML) various levels of armed struggles were raised in different parts of the country, which were crushed by the brutal suppression of the enemy in mid 70’s.

The long history of these organizations for almost three decades contains many ups and downs of struggle as well as many splits. It contains experiences both positive and negative. Now there are almost six or seven centers of Maoists are existing. In the years 98-99 PBSP splinted into three different centers – PBSP (CC), PBSP (MPK) and PBSP (MBRM). Though PBSP (CC) evaluated the other two organizations Maoist as a whole, non of them evaluated CC as Maoist. MBRM has evaluated CC and all other centers as revisionist. In this way they are engaged in antagonistic-sectarian struggle. MPK evaluated only MBRM as a Maoist center, but all others as revisionist or non-Maoist and only pro Mao.

CPEB splintered into two organizations in 2002. The name of these two organizations are – CPEB (ML) and CPEB (ML) (Red Flag). In July ‘03 CPEB (ML) got divided again and CPEB (ML) (PW) emerged. Each of these organizations has adopted Charu Majumder’s teachings as their party’s ideology and each center call all other centers of the country as revisionist or non-Maoist.

After the spilt, PBSP (CC) adopted “Political Report, 2001” containing a over all summation of 30-years of experience. It was adopted by the 2nd Expanded Meeting (EM) of the central committee in mid 2002. Based on this summation and according to the new line the twelfth session of the CC (mid 2003) has adopted a strategic plan for leap into people’s war. Thus CC is trying to develop a successful people’s war.

In the northern and southern parts of the country PBSP (CC) has significant armed struggles. They have notable and expanding activities in quite a few other districts including Dhaka, the capital. MBRM also maintains an important armed activity in northern and southern parts of the country.

In southwestern and northern parts of the country CPEB also has it’s activities. MPK and BSD have no armed activity. They maintain their limited activities within the confines of mass organizations in the cities. It is relevant to mention here that CPEB (ML) and MBRM have no mass organizations beside armed organization. They think, having such a line of mass organization is wrong and an obstacle to people’s war. They talk about mass struggle and organization only under the shadow and influence of armed struggle.

In Madaripur – Shariatpur area of the south and Chalanbil area of the north, CC has some significant armed activities. CPEB (ML) (Red Flag) also has good armed activities in greater Rajshahi-Pabna district. CPEB (ML) (PW) is quite active in western region. Before split CPEB (ML) captured twenty weapons from the government forces in Daulatpur of Khulna in 2003. Besides, they have killed quote a few policemen recently in Khulna area trough bomb attacks and by other means. MBRM has vast activities in Pubna – Sirajganj – Rajbari districts. In September 2002 they captured nine weapons by attacking Randhunibari police camp in Sirajganj.

Facing such a situation the state engaged into a country wide suppression campaign named “Operation Clean Heart” early 2003. It was commandeered principally by the military. The state is engaging in suppression campaigns quite often in the areas where revolutionary struggles exist. Another suppression campaign has been launched by the Combined forces in six northern districts since 24th of June ’03 and in five southwestern districts since 17.07.03. in Khulna divisional area military officers are commandeering this suppression and massive onslaught has been lunched with ten thousand soldiers and helicopters. Recently state has built up a paramilitary force named RAB (Rapid Action Battalion). This force along with police, in increasing engages in killing revolutionaries in custody and propagates these as “encounter”.

PBSP (CC) has been giving immense importance to the task of uniting all the Maoists divided into different centers under one center on the basis of an overall correct line. They have taken initiatives through continuous efforts to have discussions-struggles with different Maoist organizations. They are pursuing a continuous and patient effort to an end the antagonistic-sectarian struggle among the contending centers. Recently CPEB (ML) (Red Flag) also made an important development in their line towards shedding the antagonistic method of struggle. They have also joined CCOMPOSA.

Maoist parties of India both from within and outside of RIM rendered important assistance to these initiatives. Their assistance and specially the examples of unification of various different Maoist centers and efforts towards such unification in India played and will continue to play an important and positive influential role. PBSP (CC) appreciate on advancing this process

All in all Maoist movement in this country is going through a crucial juncture. Revolutionary armed struggles under the leadership of different Maoist centers have gained a new life. But in regard of People’s War, these armed struggles have serious ideological-political errors and military mistakes, which demands correct summation as soon as possible. At the same time Maoists are still divided into many different centers and that has line basis, which needs to be struggle, but will enough advancement is not visible. The role of the Maoists in the arena of mass struggle is also shining more brightly. But even in this regard and on the question of joint activities base on front-line most of the organizations could not come out from the past errors yet. Under this situation the state is bringing down heavier suppression. To face and defeat them it is urgent to correct the mistakes of the over all line. Maoist movement of this country will advance towards greater development by correcting the mistakes on the question of People’s War, Maoist unity and party building and front-line – that is the desire of all the revolutionaries and revolutionary minded people.

August, 04




http://cpnm.org/new/ccomposa/cco_pps/pbspcc.htm

http://dakbangla.blogspot.com/2005/02/bangladesh-maoist-insurgency-report-12.html

http://cpnm.org/new/ccomposa/ccomposa_index.htm

http://www.bannedthought.net/India/PeoplesTruth/PeoplesTruth03.pdf

http://www.bannedthought.net/Bangladesh/MUG-PBSP/ASP-09-Editorial.pdf

http://www.bannedthought.net/Nepal/RedStar/TheRedStar-vol1-15.pdf

http://www.apakistannews.com/maoist-gets-state-funeral-in-bangladesh-141813

[Patchd]

Great info, although I don't see why it necessarily has to be 'led'. Even if the unions are connected to parliamentary parties, there is nothing to suggest that these workers actually took the action without official backing, and by themselves, I realise this may be hard for Leninists to digest. In addition, they're garment workers, I doubt it would be hard for them to be able to produce their own flags.

[pranabjyoti]

http://cpnm.org/new/ccomposa/cco_pps/pbspcc.htm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://cpnm.org/new/ccomposa/cco_pps/pbspcc.htm)
this and other cpnm websites are now under virus attack. It is not opening in PC. I think it is deliberate.

[Ret]

You guys forgot to mention the insignificant anti-worker murderous mountain-roaming gangs part. I love it when you include that one in your slandering.
Your grasp of facts and logic leave something to be desired. It's you who slander me. What I said would only be slander if it was false - but, as I showed, the Nepali maoists certainly did express intentions to ban strikes. While you have claimed all sorts of mystical powers and presence for invisible maoists - but have only offered their dated propaganda as evidence (last activities mentioned are from 2003) which states that they became hopelessly fragmented and occasionally killed a few cops a few years back.

[red cat]

Your grasp of facts and logic leave something to be desired. It's you who slander me. What I said would only be slander if it was false - but, as I showed, the Nepali maoists certainly did express intentions to ban strikes. While you have claimed all sorts of mystical powers and presence for invisible maoists - but have only offered their dated propaganda as evidence (last activities mentioned are from 2003) which states that they became hopelessly fragmented and occasionally killed a few cops a few years back.

Not 2003, 2005. Also, the report on comrade Tutul suggests that there have been military actions even last year. And a couple of links suggest that the Maoists are trying to unify. If you look at Maoists in India and Nepal, they have unified and not fragmented in the past few years. In general the petit-bourgeois tendency of fragmenting over every debate has been defeated in south Asia.

And I am trying to do a bit of research on the claim of banning strikes. If that was proposed and later voted out inside the party then it suggests a victory of the mass line.

[Ret]

Not 2003, 2005.
The article you posted said 2003 - as pranabjyoti said, the site hosting those links is infected/inaccessible, so I presume you refer to other info there. My comments on fragmentation referred only to the Bangladesh maoists.

As far as I know, the strike ban was never passed into law, it was just expressed as intended legislation (as I made clear in my articles). In Jan 2009 the Nepal Cabinet "endorsed" the legislation - and in April (shortly before leaving govt.) Maoist finance minister Dr Bhattrai, speaking to Nepal's International Chamber of Commerce, promised "Such regulations will come soon". The Maoist Minister was referring to a law drafted by a pre-Maoist govt. that he intended to make operational. But Prachanda, when in govt., was reported as already trying to use his influence to stop bandhs for some time ('bandh' can variously refer to street protests, strikes, shutdowns/blockades etc).

Prime Minister Pushpa Kamal Dahal has announced several times that bandas are henceforth banned. No one listened to him. Everyone thought, "They did it when they were underground, now it's our turn." You now have the absurd situation where political parties in the coalition, organisations affiliated to the ruling parties call for shutdowns.
Nepali Times - ISSUE #441 (06 MARCH 2009 - 12 MARCH 2009) But this report, from when the Maoists were still in power, suggests that legislation was used at least once to ban a strike;

Strikes prohibited at Sunsari road section
Kantipur Report
SUNSARI, April 18 - Sunsari district administration imposed prohibitory order against strike at Sunsari road section along the East-West Highway effective from Saturday.

The local administration imposed such prohibitory order after the talks held to put an end to the strike and banda ended inconclusively.
eKantipur.com - April 18 09But that was a local issue so may have been dealt with by local byelaws, I don't know - the proposed strike ban legislation was/is for planned 'Special Economic Zones' - areas designed with more favourable conditions such as strike bans and tax concessions to attract foreign and local investment. (The same kind of hyper-exploitative Zones the garment factories in Bangladesh are often located in.)

If you consider it "slander" to talk of such things, that presumably is an admittance that they reflect very badly on the Maoists.

[cyu]

Maoists love word 'people' and 'masses' because it corresponds to their class collaborationist politics - a blanket term for what ever proletarian, peasant, lumpen, petit-bourgeois and bourgeois factions deemed convenient at the time.

So people shouldn't use the word "people" anymore? :lol: I don't know, I see the words "people" and "masses" a lot in leftist writing all over the place, and I hardly ever read Maoist reports. Even mainstream politicians in the US are almost always using the term "the American people" - I don't think anybody is accusing them of being Maoist.

As for "class collaboration" - indeed I want to turn everyone against capitalism - not just some subset of the population. Granted, this will be easier among some parts of the population than others, but I don't think it's completely impossible.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Rocker
"Although Rocker is unlikely to have grasped all of the political and philosophical implications of what he read, he became a socialist and regularly discussed his ideas with others. His employer became the first person he converted to socialism."

This isn't to say I'm going to wait until 100% of the population is anti-capitalist before I think conditions are "right" for tossing it out. If you can get the current left-leaners to move further left, if you can get moderates to become left-leaners, and if you can get some number of capitalists to start to become indifferent to the survival of capitalism, then at some point you'll reach critical mass, and capitalism will be dispensed with, regardless of what the last remaining stragglers want.

[cyu]

Anarcho-syndicalists are libertarian communists. However, libertarian communist is a much wider descriptive term than anarcho-syndicalist, and includes many people who are not anarcho-syndicalists.


That's an interesting take on it - I've never seen it described that way before. Maybe I had imagined a definition that was too specific. When you say "libertarian communist" do you basically just mean anybody who is both "anarchist" and opposed to capitalism? If so, then I'd agree with your assessment.

[Niccolò Rossi]

So people shouldn't use the word "people" anymore?

No. The point is, for revolutionaries, 'the people' are not the subject of the revolution, nor is it a meaningful or useful category for political analysis.


I don't know, I see the words "people" and "masses" a lot in leftist writing all over the place, and I hardly ever read Maoist reports.

Yes, I think it's pretty telling of these leftist groups.


Even mainstream politicians in the US are almost always using the term "the American people" - I don't think anybody is accusing them of being Maoist.

I'm certainly not making that accusation. I think the fact that the mainstream media and dominant bourgeois parties are so fond of this kind of rhetoric is pretty telling also.


As for "class collaboration" - indeed I want to turn everyone against capitalism - not just some subset of the population. Granted, this will be easier among some parts of the population than others, but I don't think it's completely impossible.

Revolution is not the product of good intentions or the subjective consciousness of individuals. As Marx wrote: "It is not a question of what this or that proletarian, or even the whole proletariat, at the moment regards as its aim. It is a question of what the proletariat is, and what, in accordance with this being, it will historically be compelled to do. Its aim and historical action is visibly and irrevocably foreshadowed in its life situation, as well as in the whole organisation of bourgeois society today."


If you can get the current left-leaners to move further left, if you can get moderates to become left-leaners, and if you can get some number of capitalists to start to become indifferent to the survival of capitalism, then at some point you'll reach critical mass, and capitalism will be dispensed with, regardless of what the last remaining stragglers want.

This is not a direct response to this remark, but in general, I've never met anyone with the same politics as you. Some of the same symptoms and on a lesser level, yes, but it's these kind of remarks which leave me scratching my head and asking "Is he serious?" Take that how you will.

[cyu]

'the people' are not the subject of the revolution

While politics is about changing political or economic structures, don't you first need to change people's minds before they are willing to help change the political / economic structures?


I think it's pretty telling of these leftist groups

Personally I don't use the word "masses" either - I also don't use the word "proletariat" - the reason is not out of any ideological stand, but because those two words are simply not commonly used by the English speakers where I live. But the word "people"? Almost everybody uses that word around here, so I use it - just as I would use the word "employee" instead of "proletariat". Most people would know what you're talking about when you say "employee" but if I keep saying "proletariat" this or "proletariat" that, then I'd just get strange stares.



As Marx wrote


I'm not sure what you're getting at with this quote (?)



in general, I've never met anyone with the same politics as you


If everybody thought like somebody else, then nothing new would ever exist. While I give myself the label of anarcho-syndicalist, I consider myself more of an "ecumenical" leftist. So I don't try to exclude people from any movement against capitalism, but try to include them - this isn't to say I'm going to let capitalists continue to dominate the economy in a fake anti-capitalist system, but rather, they would be welcome to participate in a post-capitalist world just as anybody else would be welcome to be a part of it.

[Niccolò Rossi]

While politics is about changing political or economic structures, don't you first need to change people's minds before they are willing to help change the political / economic structures?

Certainly. I think there is a big difference between this and the notion that revolution will happen after 'the people' (or even the working class) have been won to the nice ideas of socialism.


But the word "people"? Almost everybody uses that word around here, so I use it

Certainly they know it, speaking for myself though, I don't know what it means and I think it is completely useless for making any political analysis or commentary.


just as I would use the word "employee" instead of "proletariat".

On somewhat of a side note (if we weren't enough so already), I think 'worker' is a much more appropriate term given the official and legalistic connotations of the former and the more overtly political connotations of the latter.


I'm not sure what you're getting at with this quote (?)

The point I made at the beginning. Revolution is not made by the good intentions or the consciousness of individuals, but by classes who's class interests are defined by the place they occupy in the social relations of society.

[cyu]

I think there is a big difference between this and the notion that revolution will after 'the people' (or even the working class) have been won to the nice ideas of socialism.


You may be missing a word here. Did you mean "revolution will happen after"? If so, why wouldn't revolution happen after 'the people' have been won over to socialism?


speaking for myself though, I don't know what it means and I think it is completely useless for making any political analysis or commentary.

I think you're overanalyzing a little. When I say "people" I just mean 2 or more human beings - ie. the plural of person.



I think 'worker' is a much more appropriate term given the official and legalistic connotations of the former and the more overtly political connotations of the latter


I usually don't use "worker" - it's usually either "employee" or "wage slave" - depending on what I'm trying to emphasize. The reason I use "employee" is because this is how people are referred to where I work. If the corporations called us "workers" then I would start using the word "worker" - whatever word they hear the most is the word I'll use, since I want people to immediately know I'm talking about them.



Revolution is not made by the good intentions or the consciousness of individuals, but by classes who's class interests are defined by the place they occupy in the social relations of society.


Sure I agree with your statement about classes, but classes are made up of individuals. I don't see how they're independent - and I'm not sure why it matters either way (?)

[Devrim]

As for all your maoist fervour - still no actual evidence of your claims of the strength of Bangladeshi maoism, just more vague assertions.Here are some useful links on the topic. Some of these are about five years old. As of now all we know about Bangladeshi Maoists is that they are facing state-onslaught, which explains why there have been no web-updates by themselves. But the several parties have probably managed to unify. Also, their military strength is increasing.

I would imagine that these groups are absolutely tiny and in many cases may have gone out of existence. I don't know this for a fact, but not updating your website in five years suggests that to me. It doesn't take much to maintain a website, and I can't imagine a functioning political organisation not doing it nowadays.

Also Bangladesh is not one of the countries that the Maoists talk about when they go on about groups waging 'peoples' war'. The ones that they usually talk about are India, Nepal, Peru, the Philippines and Turkey. If we consider that the organisation that you are supporting in Turkey probably has about 100 people nowadays, yet Maoists enthusiastically talk about the people's war here, and they do manage to maintain a website, despite facing a state onslaught a few years ago, which murdered most of their leadeship, we can imagine the strength of the Bangledeshi movement.


http://cpnm.org/new/ccomposa/cco_pps/pbspcc.htm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://cpnm.org/new/ccomposa/cco_pps/pbspcc.htm)
this and other cpnm websites are now under virus attack. It is not opening in PC. I think it is deliberate.

No, you have misread it. It is not saying that it is under attack, but that it can attack you. If you click "Why was this site blocked?", it says that it has not occured in over 90 days. I think that it is safe to click the ignore warning in the bottom right corner, which takes you to the site.

Devrim

[red cat]

I would imagine that these groups are absolutely tiny and in many cases may have gone out of existence. I don't know this for a fact, but not updating your website in five years suggests that to me. It doesn't take much to maintain a website, and I can't imagine a functioning political organisation not doing it nowadays.

Also Bangladesh is not one of the countries that the Maoists talk about when they go on about groups waging 'peoples' war'. The ones that they usually talk about are India, Nepal, Peru, the Philippines and Turkey. If we consider that the organisation that you are supporting in Turkey probably has about 100 people nowadays, yet Maoists enthusiastically talk about the people's war here, and they do manage to maintain a website, despite facing a state onslaught a few years ago, which murdered most of their leadeship, we can imagine the strength of the Bangledeshi movement.

DevrimParties that mainly stick to revolutionary armed struggle might not have access to computers at all for long periods of time. If they are facing an onslaught right now, they cannot expect much help by updating their website, instead of maintaining contact with there Indian and Nepalese counter-parts in other ways.

The countries Maoists talk about are the ones having well-developed PPWs( not counting your estimation of the number of Turkish Maoists). There are several other countries in which Maoists have started or are preparing for armed struggles.

[ls]

Parties that mainly stick to revolutionary armed struggle might not have access to computers at all for long periods of time. If they are facing an onslaught right now, they cannot expect much help by updating their website, instead of maintaining contact with there Indian and Nepalese counter-parts in other ways.

The countries Maoists talk about are the ones having well-developed PPWs( not counting your estimation of the number of Turkish Maoists). There are several other countries in which Maoists have started or are preparing for armed struggles.

What countries are these getting started in iyo. On a side note, I think you severely overrate what's going on in Turkey and Peru, the only real 'PPWs' going on are really in Nepal, India and the Philippines.

[red cat]

What countries are these getting started in iyo. On a side note, I think you severely overrate what's going on in Turkey and Peru, the only real 'PPWs' going on are really in Nepal, India and the Philippines.

I don't know the names of the countries that are in the starting stage of PPW. The initial military actions are generally not propagandised. But several Asian and Latin American countries are prepering for the same. Documents from the RIM and the ICMLPO(M) are a good source for obatining information on this.

About over-rating the PPWs in Turkey and Peru, you may think what you want to, but I won't be very surprised if I come to hear after a few years that they are conducting uprisings in vast areas.

[Ret]

About over-rating the PPWs in Turkey and Peru, you may think what you want to, but I won't be very surprised if I come to hear after a few years that they are conducting uprisings in vast areas.Even though you have nothing but your 3rd worldist wet dreams to suggest such a development. It's you who "think what you want to" regardless of the facts or evidence from people in those countries.
Red cat certainly shows how much he has to move the goal posts to maintain his fantasies - when someone quotes the mainstream press as part of a criticism of Maoists he dismisses it with 'well the bourgeois press would say that' - but on the Nepal sticky thread he and others are happy to cheerlead bourgeois press reports that are interpreted to be flattering to the Maoists. Similarly, when he wants to see Maoists everywhere, the absence of any proof to support his ghost fantasies is supposedly due to 'necessary clandestinity'. Hardly a credible way to argue.

[red cat]

Even though you have nothing but your 3rd worldist wet dreams to suggest such a development. It's you who "think what you want to" regardless of the facts or evidence from people in those countries.
Red cat certainly shows how much he has to move the goal posts to maintain his fantasies - when someone quotes the mainstream press as part of a criticism of Maoists he dismisses it with 'well the bourgeois press would say that' - but on the Nepal sticky thread he and others are happy to cheerlead bourgeois press reports that are interpreted to be flattering to the Maoists. Similarly, when he wants to see Maoists everywhere, the absence of any proof to support his ghost fantasies is supposedly due to 'necessary clandestinity'. Hardly a credible way to argue.
And for how long have you heard of the Nepalese revolution?

[Leo]

If we consider that the organisation that you are supporting in Turkey probably has about 100 people nowadays

That is a bit unfair - I think the number is about 250-300 nowadays.


About over-rating the PPWs in Turkey and Peru, you may think what you want to, but I won't be very surprised if I come to hear after a few years that they are conducting uprisings in vast areas.

You are making a fool out of yourself.

[scarletghoul]

There are differant stages to PPW, and we are not going to hear much about a PPW in its initial stage, because there is not a huge amount of violence (and of course the info will be suppressed for propaganda reasons). There are also long periods of the war that will not have a lot of obviously war activity (protracted yeah) so we will not hear much about them. It does not mean that they are not going on, just that they are not at the stage of what is traditionally considerd a war. A lot of comrades in this thread don't seem to realise this, and think that because they dont read about it in the papers the PPW does not exist in these countries.

Phillipines, Nepal and India are the most developed PPWs and all have Liberated Zones, but there are other more low profile PPWs simmering in other countries. You'll hear about them soon enough.

[Ret]

And for how long have you heard of the Nepalese revolution?
I take it by 'revolution' you mean maoist guerilla activity. Since 1997, not long (a year?) after it began - I read small reports in the Nepali press about its early activities in remote areas - it may, for all I know, have been reported there earlier than that. But I don't see the relevance of your question? You were claiming the existence of phantom movements in other countries, which we are not reading about anywhere (except on a 5-years-dead website you linked to). If you admitted this is all only speculation, then fine - to present it as anything more when being unable to show any proof of existence is stupid. You seem to like taking fragments of knowledge about a particular situation and then trying to apply them universally - or at least to all of what you call 'the feudal culture' of the '3rd world'. As you did with your 1st comment on this thread claiming that only married women worked in Bangladeshi garment factories, which was shown to be fantasy.

[Leo]

There are differant stages to PPW, and we are not going to hear much about a PPW in its initial stage

It must have been in its "initial" stage for about 37 years.

[red cat]

It must have been in its "initial" stage for about 37 years.Wow! That's only a hundred years short than what you have already required for raising the proletariat's class consciousness since the Paris Commune.

[ls]

Wow! That's only a hundred years short than what you have already required for raising the proletariat's class consciousness since the Paris Commune.

If this is some kind of (weak) attack, the left-communist tradition recognises a lot of things since the paris commune, I'm sure Leo could link a long list of just what I mean.

As a matter of interest redcat, do you support just the TKP or other groups, if so what other groups?

[red cat]

If this is some kind of (weak) attack, the left-communist tradition recognises a lot of things since the paris commune, I'm sure Leo could link a long list of just what I mean.

As a matter of interest redcat, do you support just the TKP or other groups, if so what other groups?
Apart from the TKP(ML), the other communist parties which I support are the TKP(ML)(MPM) and MKP. Also, there is a nationalist revolutionary organization called the PKK. I support that too.

[red cat]

I take it by 'revolution' you mean maoist guerilla activity. Since 1997, not long (a year?) after it began - I read small reports in the Nepali press about its early activities in remote areas - it may, for all I know, have been reported there earlier than that. But I don't see the relevance of your question? You were claiming the existence of phantom movements in other countries, which we are not reading about anywhere (except on a 5-years-dead website you linked to). If you admitted this is all only speculation, then fine - to present it as anything more when being unable to show any proof of existence is stupid. You seem to like taking fragments of knowledge about a particular situation and then trying to apply them universally - or at least to all of what you call 'the feudal culture' of the '3rd world'. As you did with your 1st comment on this thread claiming that only married women worked in Bangladeshi garment factories, which was shown to be fantasy.In Nepal Maoists had started to prepare for armed struggle by 1994.

The documents of UCPN(M) and CPI(M) that I linked to are from last year.

RCP has mentioned some countries where newly formed Maoist groups have started preparing for armed struggle. You can search in the past issues of Revolution for the relevant articles.

[Devrim]

Apart from the TKP(ML), the other communist parties which I support are the TKP(ML)(MPM) and MKP. Also, there is a nationalist revolutionary organization called the PKK. I support that too.

Interestingly enough, although they are still referred to as the PKK, they changed there name to KADEK (Kurdistan Freedom and Democracy Congress) years ago. They have also dropped the Marxism, and prior to Obama's presidency were trying to move towards the US, though it now seems that the US has completely rejected these overtures.

The moves towards the US were initiated through PJAK, the Iranian section:


Later in November 2006 Hersh wrote that, "Israel and the United States have also been working together in support of a Kurdish resistance group known as the Party for Free Life in Kurdistan. The group has been conducting clandestine cross-border forays into Iran."

According to Hersh, Israel has been providing the Kurdish group with "equipment and training." The group has also been given "a list of targets inside Iran of interest to the US."


The Turkish government has also made insinuations about this sort of collaberation between PJAK and the US:


The session was no doubt prompted by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's complaints that U.S. explanations were unconvincing as to why "a serious amount" of weapons confiscated from the PKK were U.S.-made (NTV, July 16).Cemil Bayik, a senior commander and founder member of the PKK, just came out and said it though:


If the US is interested in PJAK, then it has to be interested in the PKK as well

After this comment was made PJAK leader, Haji Ahamdi's visited Washington in August 2007 to hold meetings with US officials, but only recieved limited acsess.

It is no surprise that these sort of nationalists try to get the backing of powerful states. They can't operate in any other way.

Of course the anti-working class nature of the PKK is not only shown by the PKK's cosying up to US imperialism it can be clearly seen in its policy on the ground with its campaign of murdering school teachers, in which 158 teachers were killed for the crime of doing there jobs, or teaching in Turkish.

School teachers in Turkey are usually girls from working class or poor peasant families who after graduating are sent on a compulsory placement by the state generally to small villages where nobody wants to go, and often to the South East.

Devrim

[Leo]

Apart from the TKP(ML), the other communist parties which I support are the TKP(ML)(MPM) and MKP. Also, there is a nationalist revolutionary organization called the PKK. I support that too.

Funny how you support a massive organization which on numerous occasions bullied and even physically attacked the militants of the small TIKKO organizations.


Interestingly enough, although they are still referred to as the PKK, they changed there name to KADEK (Kurdistan Freedom and Democracy Congress) years ago.

Actually after KADEK, they took the name Kongra-Gel (People's Congress) and after that KCK (Democratic Confederation of Kurdistan). The PKK does still exist under that name as a "guiding political force" within the greater structures. I think they started using the name PKK again after they abandoned the name KADEK and started using Kongra-Gel.