Abortion

[Comrade Gwydion]

To quote another thread (though severly modified to fit my message instead of this bastard's message:
"Make no mistake, I'm very much pro-abortion ánd euthanasia, but are these views inherent to leftwing radicalism?

Although I personally think anyone against abortion is a fucking dumb-ass jerk, he still can be a good communist can't he? (Admited, anarchist would be unlikely) So why is it that these people are banned?

[Bud Struggle]

I think Abortion can also be libertarian (I can do what I want with my body because I can do anything I want,) and Liberal (the way it is in much of the world.) As a matter of fact while a strict adherence to abortion is mandatory here at RevLeft it isn't that way in all Communist societies.

Certainly the ELZN (whose early founding were in the Catholic Church) is not pro abortion. The Soviet Union was both pro and anti abortion one time or another. And I suppose there are more examples, too.

[#FF0000]

Certainly the ELZN (whose early founding were in the Catholic Church) is not pro abortion.

If you're talking about the EZLN, then yes they are for abortion.

But yeah, I don't know if it's a deciding factor to whether or not someone's a socialist. I tend to take a leftist far less seriously if they are against abortion.

[btpound]

I think that it is endemic in the thinking of all leftists to think radically. When I say radically, I mean it in the Latin, meaning someone who examines the root of problems and addresses that. The fact is that illegalizing anything doesn't make it go away. As Marx said, "Laws cannot be above the social structure that supports it." Therefore, illegalizing abortion only forces women to go to shady doctors who are not liable at all if they fuck up.

[Bud Struggle]

If you're talking about the EZLN, then yes they are for abortion.


Well maybe. I was going by the Women's Revolutionary Laws issued on January 8, 1994. Abortion wasn't metioned.

Maybe these things were corrected at a later date.

[cb9's_unity]

As I posted in the thread your talking about, banning people based on their views on abortion serves no purpose and actively repulses people from this website and probably the left as a whole.

But now that we've told them that their not worthy for this site i'm sure they'll change their views on abortion and retain their interest in leftism...

[Dejavu]

Its not like when women undergo an abortion they become proud of themselves or there is some celebration of their 'choice.' I would imagine most abortions are painful for women , both physically and psychologically. Nonetheless, nobody ought to command what they do with their bodies and until the child is out and breathing on its own accord , it is still part of the mother's body.

[Bud Struggle]

Its not like when women undergo an abortion they become proud of themselves or there is some celebration of their 'choice.' I would imagine most abortions are painful for women , both physically and psychologically. Nonetheless, nobody ought to command what they do with their bodies and until the child is out and breathing on its own accord , it is still part of the mother's body.

One could easily say that workers should never have any issues or complaints while they are in the factory. It is after all the owner's factory. While they are in the building--they have no rights. My factory is my womb.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I happen to know of a few Pro-lifers outside of revleft who claim to be communist. Personally, I think the two views contradict with each other as giving women freedom to make decisions like this is a huge part of their liberation.

[Demogorgon]

I think it is deeply unwise to place any kind of single issue litmus test on being a leftist. A consistent approach ought to mean that a leftist will support abortion, seeing reproductive freedom as being incomplete without it, but nobody's views are perfectly consistent.

[The Count]

Instead of being "pro-life" or "pro-choice" and advocating for or against abortion (which I believe to be a very unfortunate thing), more focus should be put on why women are having abortions and how to reduce its occurrence when it's not medically necessary. I'm incredibly pro-life (in a literal sense) and I believe that the vast majority of people on this site are as well. If the financial hardships of raising a child were to be done away with through the removal of Capitalism, it would eliminate the causal agent of being unable to raise a child due to a lack of capital and therefore resorting to abortion. While the need for them is a folly of nature, abortions are necessary for a variety of medical reasons and have been recorded throughout history. Banning abortion is simply nonsense and does nothing to help with the problem. Women should not have to resort to abortion due to not being able to financially support their baby. I am aware that there are several other major factors, some of which I have already pointed out; I just wanted to get the point across that abortions are not to be aimlessly supported or opposed.

To answer your question, I believe that someone can be anti-abortion and Communist in the way of believing that it's a negative thing, yet not in the way of supporting its prohibition.

[Dejavu]

One could easily say that workers should never have any issues or complaints while they are in the factory. It is after all the owner's factory. While they are in the building--they have no rights. My factory is my womb.

Replace factory with plantation and you have slavery. That's not how it works. You can set the rules in your factory but you are also bound to those rules and obligations you yourself has committed to the workers. If you default they have a legitimate complaint.

[Bud Struggle]

Replace factory with plantation and you have slavery. That's not how it works. You can set the rules in your factory but you are also bound to those rules and obligations you yourself has committed to the workers. If you default they have a legitimate complaint.

And take away the rules of the work place and you have a bunch of people wandering around a building. If you define workers in a business as humans--they have to be such in and outside of the factory. If you define a human being as a something then they are that something ten days before birth as well as ten days after birth.

Date of birth isn't an issue. If some woman "owns" her own body who's to say I can't "own" my own factory. And if you own your body--why can't I buy it from you? Then you'll be my slave. Full circle.

[Bud Struggle]

Instead of being "pro-life" or "pro-choice" and advocating for or against abortion (which I believe to be a very unfortunate thing), more focus should be put on why women are having abortions and how to reduce its occurrence when it's not medically necessary. I'm incredibly pro-life (in a literal sense) and I believe that the vast majority of people on this site are as well. If the financial hardships of raising a child were to be done away with through the removal of Capitalism, it would eliminate the causal agent of being unable to raise a child due to a lack of capital and therefore resorting to abortion. While the need for them is a folly of nature, abortions are necessary for a variety of medical reasons and have been recorded throughout history. Banning abortion is simply nonsense and does nothing to help with the problem. Women should not have to resort to abortion due to not being able to financially support their baby. I am aware that there are several other major factors, some of which I have already pointed out; I just wanted to get the point across that abortions are not to be aimlessly supported or opposed.

To answer your question, I believe that someone can be anti-abortion and Communist in the way of believing that it's a negative thing, yet not in the way of supporting its prohibition.

Before this gets away--great post. Welcome to RevLeft. (And OI.)

[The Count]

Before this gets away--great post. Welcome to RevLeft. (And OI.)
Haha, well thank you. However, I'm not an opposing ideology, despite posting in this section. I support the right of a woman to have an abortion. However, I believe that the 'pro-life', 'pro-choice' rhetoric is tired. My post was just a commentary on the difference between 'pro-abortion rights' and 'pro-abortion' (confusion that is often run into when dealing with those who are against abortion rights). Most would agree that life is precious, and shouldn't be taken unless absolutely necessary. In my mind, Leftism is about both the freedom and protection of people.

[Bud Struggle]

Haha, well thank you. However, I'm not an opposing ideology, despite posting in this section. I support the right of a woman to have an abortion. However, I believe that the 'pro-life', 'pro-choice' rhetoric is tired. My post was just a commentary on the difference between 'pro-abortion rights' and 'pro-abortion' (confusion that is often run into when dealing with those who are against abortion rights). Most would agree that life is precious, and shouldn't be taken unless absolutely necessary. In my mind, Leftism is about both the freedom and protection of people.

Yea, yea, yea. This isn't REVLEFT "proper" where ever post has to be about I'M A BETTER COMMIE THAN YOU. This is OI where the quality of the post--no matter their distinction or political distraction--if revelent to the discussion at hand, is welcome.

Please, join the discussion. Your opinions are appreciated.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I suppose communism is, strictly speaking, just a movement toward economic re-organisation. So you could oppose abortion and be a communist.

It makes very little sense to be in favour of class liberation but not basic bodily autonomy, though.

"An end to wage-slavery! A new and equatorial world, free of the profit motive, run for the good of human society! Oh but erm, that woman there? She isn't allowed to choose what happens to her during pregnancy. Nuh-uh."

-Alex

[Die Rote Fahne]

Supporting abortion is the wrong way to put it.

Supporting a women's right to choose is more appropriate.

I mean, people don't say "Yay abortion". They say "Too bad abortion, but it is her body".

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Supporting abortion is the wrong way to put it.

Supporting a women's right to choose is more appropriate.

I mean, people don't say "Yay abortion". They say "Too bad abortion, but it is her body".

I don't think we'd even say "too bad abortion" would we? What's the problem? Pregnant woman doesn't want to have a baby, so she gets an abortion. Yay! One less unwanted child in the world and women's rights are preserved! Sorted. It's nothing to be ashamed of or judgemental about. If the woman doesn't want a baby it's a good idea and it makes complete sense.

-Alex

[Pogue]

Well maybe. I was going by the Women's Revolutionary Laws issued on January 8, 1994. Abortion wasn't metioned.

Maybe these things were corrected at a later date.

So because they didn't explicitly mention it, you said they were not 'pro abortion'? Don't you think thats a big leap to make?

[Bud Struggle]

So because they didn't explicitly mention it, you said they were not 'pro abortion'? Don't you think thats a big leap to make?

Agreed and just because they are "Anarchist" you make an equally big assumption in the opposite direction.

To be honest everything I get from the Internet on them on the subject is pretty vague. I'd really like to visit the place and see what's going on for myself--but I suppose they don't do guided tours for dillitante Capie gringos. :(

[Jazzratt]

Agreed and just because they are "Anarchist" you make an equally big assumption in the opposite direction.

That's probably because pretty much every system of codified laws exists only to prohibit certain behaviours. For pretty obvious reasons, too. If you think current law systems are complex imagine they had to, instead, list everything you can do.

That's why unless something is mentioned as being prohibited it is safe to assume it isn't.

[RGacky3]

If you're talking about the EZLN, then yes they are for abortion.

But yeah, I don't know if it's a deciding factor to whether or not someone's a socialist. I tend to take a leftist far less seriously if they are against abortion.

I'm not sure about the EZLNs stance on abortion, but Bud Struggle is correct in saying that the Zapatistas has deep Catholic roots, and many of the Zapatista leaders and most ardent supporters have been Catholic priests.

[Bud Struggle]

I'm not sure about the EZLNs stance on abortion, but Bud Struggle is correct in saying that the Zapatistas has deep Catholic roots, and many of the Zapatista leaders and most ardent supporters have been Catholic priests.

If you ever find anything out about EZLN's stance on abortion--I'd be interested in knowing the answer.