shit

[plymouth hammer]

I cannot BELIEVE some of the responses here.

For a start I'm against the fact British troops are in Iraq and Afghanistan. However a lot of you are talking as if the British soldiers there are the ones doing most of the murdering and bombings? The vast majority of civilians killed in both these countries are not by coalition forces. Aghanistan has always been a very violent troubled place to be, and there are groups out there who's number 1 goal is to set the place into a reigeme far worse than any sort of "fascism" that's ever existed before. Or have we all forgotten about centuries-old buddhas being blown up, women being publically executed for the most minor of crimes, and assaults on dams which provide electricity and therefor civilisation to thousands? I'm not peddling the bollocks that we're there for everyone's own good but the vast majority of the British Army's work out there is peacekeeping and fighting some of the most evil people on the planet.

Have a serious think about what some of you are saying next time please. "If he was some random lad I'd hope he died in Afghan"..... Jesus Christ. The British Army is almost entirely made up of working class young men. You call yourselves left-wing or socialist when you hope young working class lads die? Get real.

[plymouth hammer]

Right I'm gonna get straight into it.

I'm not a member of the EDL, although I have been to an event and know people who are members, post on the message board and agree with almost everything I read on there, and every one I met at the event on saturday was absolutely spot-on.

Yet all I ever seem to read on forums like this is fascist this, nazi that, smash this, bash that. Seems as if some of you lot genuinely do think that the EDL is some sort of smokescreen for the far-right so I'll try and clear it up:

For a start, there is no racial agenda here. There isn't even an anti-Islamic one. There are black and mixed race members, and on the forums recently there has been talk of getting into contact with MFSD (Muslims for Secular Democracy) and on saturday there were chats with them up central London, and they all seemed fairly spot on. It's listed very clearly all over the website, forums, facebook pages etc. that they are opposing Islamic extremism, not the average everyday muslim. This is not racist or a right-wing thing to do.

If you actually look at the views of the people who the EDL oppose, on stuff like human rights, womens rights, gay rights, free speech, freedom of religion, and the death penalty, and then compare them with the views of most people attending events and then to fascism itself, well the proof is in the pudding.

The actual, proper hitler-loving nazis out there absolutely hate the EDL. They see them as traitors, as zionists, and (their words not ours) "race mixers". The UAF's tactics of screaming NAZI SCUM, holding up anti-BNP posters (when the EDL and BNP are not I repeat NOT linked - see Nick Griffing's views on them for a bit of proof) and inciting gangs of local young pissed off asian and somali into attacking a peaceful demo is absolutely pathetic at best, disgraceful at worst.

There is a fairly decent write-up on the EDL on Standpoint Magazine but apparently I've gotta post another 23 times til I can put a link up.

I don't expect any of you to read this post or the article with an open mind, but if you do and fancy replying it'll probably reflect better on you than swearing a lot and throwing phrases like "nazi scum" and "bash the fash" around.

[plymouth hammer]

The thing is that the English Defence league are very clearly promoting a divisive outlook. Criticism of "Islamic Extremism" is all too often used as a smokescreen for bigotry against anyone from a Muslim background, regardless of their own religious beliefs and observations.

Islamic extremism is not that significant in Britain, regardless of what the tabloids might tell you and generally speaking when people target it, they are (usually but not always) intentionally targetting all people from that background.
Disagree with 2 things there. One is the bigotry against anyone from a muslim background (as I haven't seen this yet) but the other is that extremism is not significant.

I lived almost all of my life in Newham, east London. There are people in our cities who very openly preach their beliefs (not a problem in itself imo, everyone's entitled to free speech and all that) that the west is evil, that democracy is bad, and that any non-believer is not worth as much as a believer... and any muslim who doesn't go along with this sturggle against us evil oppressors is no better than the kuffar (as far as I know this actually goes directly against the Koran). It's easy to say that these people are loonies and they get ignored, but it ain't so, they do have a shocking amount of support and the plain and simple fact is that no one really speaks up about it.... and worse, anyone who does, risks being labelled a racist, a nazi etc.

I'd also like to know why the so-called left seem to actually like this mob so much? Surely they go against everything they should stand for?

[plymouth hammer]

The 'organisation' EDL has a number of members who are members of or associated with the far-right. They represent an agressive, nationalistic trend who, regardless of the bullshit they come out with 'officially', go on demonstrations in which they act in an agressive manne ron a platform of anti-Islam, i.e. focusing on an easy target to create division.I don't like the BNP, but just because someone has voted for them in the past it does not make them a nazi, fascist, racist or even far-right, any more than someone who votes tory or labour is a war mongorer. People vote for the BNP for all different reasons, and as far as I know most of the founders of the EDL no longer have any official connection to the BNP, but if they've voted for them before then that means very little, apart from the fact they once voted for a party that you don't like. I don't like the conservatives but wouldn't hold the fact someone voted or votes for them against them.


I've been on a number of anti-EDL demonstrations where I have seen people sieg heiling, calling people paki, etc. I've heard people mouth off to with all manner of shit.I personally have not seen this. I have however seen with my own eyes a group of idiots who were sieg heiling get chased off to avoid getting filled.



All of this makes me have a low impression of the group you seem to be full of praise for.

But even if I had not experienced this, do you honestly expect me, a class concious working class person, to watch as a group of agressive young predominantly white working class males out on the streets trying to tell me that the main issue in the world at the moment is Islam, stirring up that sort of tension, without me doing something about it?
Well I'm a class concious working class bloke and I don't like the thought of people like Anjem Choudary spouting off about how my country is evil, my values decadent and my life being worth less than his because we don't believe in some imaginary figure without some sort of opposition.

BTW, what do you "do about it"?



You have missed the boat on what the EDL represents. Do you honestly think that any of us support Shariah law? Do you honestly think its a threat? Do you realy think the sole reason for the existence of the English Defence league is to somehow heroically save us from the impending doom we face with Shariah law?
What I DO think is that the sort of people the EDL are against are a HUGE threat. People like BArki, Choudary, and the others are experts at public speaking and definitely have the power and ability to whip up hatred in young people and create their own army of nutcases. And there are already sharia courts in this country, for what it's worth, this is something else that I do not like.


Your organisation is made up of a 'leadership' with far-right links. We have established this as a fact quite clearly. You lack any coherent structure - your organisation is based around a discussion forum and whoever attends your demonstrations. So to claim that 'anyone sieg heiling or being aggressive' is not part of the EDL is absurd. The organisation's membership is made up of anyone who attends the demonstrations - there is no formalised membership. So yes, you are a member, and yes, you are facilitating a bastion for which far-right inclined people can air their views, publicly and yes aggressively. Any mug who orders a shirt can claim to be a member of a 'division' of the EDL.You're right, I'll give you that one, any mug CAN just claim to be EDL. This is a big problem and there is quite a bit being done to sort it. Then again any tit can turn up at a UAF thing and act like a complete ****, would you be willing to take responsibility for the woman disrupting the 2 minutes silence in Manchester?


So not were you founded, maintained and 'led' by questionable (to say the least) figures, your structure and role facilitates the sort of tension and conflict we, as anti-fascists oppose. In Luton your demonstration smashed Asian shops. Do you really think we're thick enough not to see what that means. You are abroad church of thick nationalists who want to vent their aggression without suffering the reprecussions - hence the 'we're not racist!' bullshit. The Luton incident happened before the EDL were formed. Sorry.


So a mixture of your structure, accomodation of far right actviists, founding and 'membership' of far right activists and your rule in stirring up tensions against Muslims leads to you representing for us, 'fascism', i.e. the role of diving the working class, promoting ultra-nationalist politics, etc. Whether you like it or not this is the case.
Far as I'm concerned the only stirring up so far has been by groups like the UAF, who in Birmingham were shouting to anyone who'd listen about how the BNP and NF (do they even still exist??) would be marching through "their" streets, and encouraging gathering gangs of black and asian youths to "confront" and "smash" what was actually a peaceful demonstration. That is far more divide and rule than anything the EDL have ever done.

BTW what's "ultra-nationalistic" about the EDL's politics?

[plymouth hammer]

Who likes them? Wheres your evidence?Please don't kid yourself or me.


The EDL were founded by ex-BNP activists. Say no more.
One critical part there eh



Islamic extremism is very significant in Britain and should be opposed by anyone with a social conscience. My point EXACTLY. Cheers.


For the sake of politeness i'm going to pretend your not outright lying.

Seriously in what way could a bunch of isolated nutters ever implement sharaia law, the amount of seriously practicing Muslims in the UK is far too low for anyone who has anything other then a nipple piercing for a brain to even dream about considering discussing the implimention of sharia law.

Because i'm sure that you really just really really hate muslim extremists do you not think that the slightly less PR friendly EDL attendees such as the bald retards spouting the kind of shit that would normally be followed by nick griffin spunking himself with glee. That is blatantly going to allow the nutters to capitalize on what is quite frankly a normal and more then acceptable response to large numbers of football hooligans hurling abuse and attacking people where you live. You and your merry band of slap head's actions have the potential to bring the UK mad mullah movement up from the level of two ****s and a dog right up to the level when it starts to have some kind of sympathies from many in the Islamic community not to disimiler to the sympathies for the IRA in the Catholic communities. Seriously your making it worse , if you had any kind of real interest in stopping islam as a theocratic movement rather then going paki bashing you would join the national Secular society or even better fight against the system that drives people to believe in fairy tales soley out of desperation.Very colourful language but I don't really know what you're getting at. I've never gone "paki-bashing" ffs. FWIW the "mad mullahs" you speak of have a lot more influence in some communities than anyone is prepared to admit, and that, to me, is the main problem. People have buried their heads in the sand while people with some of the most disgusting views about have gained a lot of power and influence over what you would probably describe as quite vulnerable.

[plymouth hammer]

It's pretty typical that graffic (the pro-Zionist) and the EDL supporter collaborate to attack Muslims for being terrible people.Attacking? It's Islamic extremism I don't like, not the average Muslim in the street.


Because every time it is attempted outside of a secular campaign such as no to sharia or the national secular society , some poor Muslim kid gets his head kicked in.Bit like how almost every time communism is tried people end up dying in their hundreds of thousands? Well no not really, I don't think anything like the EDL has ever happened before and so far no innocent muslim kids have had their heads kicked in.


You have failed to address my assertion that the slaphead convention / EDL makes things worse by driving Muslim youth into a them or us situation due to the less politically sophisticated EDLers.

No , I do not think Islamic extremism is a big issue ,I do however think Kurdish / Turkish nationalism is an issue is a few communities in london but that the role of getting rid of that should be by people from those communities for the sake of practicality because simply if someone from the Turkish community organized a protest with banners reading PKK scum out or whatever it would obviously ignite the situation. Its a similar principle in you wanting to combating islamic extremism but ending up making a ridiculously small movement into one that is taken up by young people (mostly young men from muslim backgrounds) as a form of opposition to people attempting to bully them.

Seriously i'd take your politics seriously if the average EDL member had as much brains as they did bullshit but its just not the case is it?I dunno what you're going on about with regards to the Turkish/Kurdish thing, I've never seen any Turkish Nationalist groups in any way shape or form with any sort of power much less being any sort of threat to our way of life. If you think it should be upto the muslim community to get the extremists out then I entirely agree with you. However this has never really happened has it? The only time the "muslim community" (ie; self-appointed community leaders) seem to speak out about this kind of thing is when they are moaning about how their people are being discriminated against. Was there a big demonstration condemning the 7/7 bombings in Green Street? No, but there was a huge one condemning the met for doing their job. The Muslim communities of Scotland all got together to condemn the airport attacks and fair play to them, that's more of what I want to see.


No, not voted for, but been an active member of. Theres a big difference. With other far-right connections too, that makes a CV we don't admire.Ricky Tomlinson was once an active member of the National Front. Gary Bushell was once an active member of the SWP. Mussolini was once a journalist for a socialist newspaper. Work it out.


Well I have seen it, on more than one occasion. Thats the sort of organisation you are part of.
Where? If you post up the pics of some fucking idiots sieg heling I will not accept that as proof.




Your clearly not class concious, because you galavant about with the fash, probably one of the main preconditions for being class conciouss is not trying to divide the class along ethnic/religious lines.

Either your outright lying or you simply have no idea what you are part of.
"The fash". Bloody hell.

I'm not dividing anything along religious lines and certainly not ethnic lines, what I am saying is that there is a clash of culture between CERTAIN ELEMENTS OF the muslim population, and our way of life. That is what I am talking about and that is what the EDL are about, not about victimising the average muslim in the street like you seem so eager to believe.



And the way I deal with it is by opposing your lot whenever you turn out. Your an agressive bunch, I like to be there to stand against you because I can.
"opposing", "standing against". Are you trying to make out that you're ready to get a bit violent? The EDL have said time and time again that they are for peaceful protest, something that your mob can't seem to get your heads around.



And you think by getitng a bunch of white men together to chant England, your going to prevent all this, right. You seem to be doing a good jbo so far. I'm opposed to sharia, etc, I just don't think chanting england will solve it. I don't think you realy give a shit either.Agree to an extent. What would you suggest?



Fuck your hypocritical, stuntish populist wank fest of a 2 minutes silence, your an insult to this country.
You're condoning what she did then? Thanks, up til now I was prepared to take you seriously and be civil with you. Won't bother replying to you with any conviction til you take that back.



The EDL was formed out of this incident. That was the beginning of your movement. The name EDL was applied later. So don't try and mug me off, you plonker.
*titter*

You've really not got a fucking clue what you're on about, have you?


your scummy bunch have attacked asian kids for no reason. i've fuckin seen it, i need no more validation. "Fash" and now "scum". You're building up quite a collection of red-flag waving loony left cliches here aren't you? The EDL I was around on saturday would have not taken kindly to any fucker standing around who took it on themselves to do anything like that. One group of younger fellas started getting a bit rowdy and were told to wind their necks in, as we are not the sort of scum who do that.

When and where has this happened before, then? Or are you just making it up?



the ultra nationalism is in how you fucking shove it down everyones throats that you claim your bullshit is representing this country, the fact you are trying to stir up some sort of patriotic reaction to a threat you are exagerating, and your general nationalist bullshit. your videos, with their nationalist imagery, your logos, your chants. mindless.
Ultra nationalism to me means something along the lines of real fascism, you know, militarism, anti-trade unionism, the state above the family, that sort of thing. Not taking pride in your country.


What are you talking about? Honestly, you levelled that at all of us. No one supports sharia islamist ideas, systems, etc. Provide some evidence for this claim. Take me for example. I've been there opposing you lot on a number of occasions. Were you referring to me too in this accusation?So why stand with Islamic extremists and "counter" any group who opposes them? Why do the left never turn out to oppose them? When was the last time a so-called left-wing group actually came out to counter an Islamist or Islamic extremist event? Seriously?

That's an open question btw, not directed at you as I don't expect fuck-all out of you now.


Nationalist fucks are not left wing , lets clear this up first your not one of us. Yes 7/7 killed alot of people yet like the man children you are you all protest (without consiering the political response of the English man child association shouting abuse at locals in muslim areas and attacking them) at anything that goes boom , the State murders far more people with its substandard housing , low dole and prohibition (which leads to gangs), you don't protest these movements because your mentally undeveloped.
I'm gonna resist the temptation to pick out the irony in the collection of words "your mentally undeveloped" and instead ask you if you are genuinely serious here when you say that more people die through what you call substandard housing and low benefits, than died in the terror attacks here? I've lived in council housing and been on the rock & roll, I know people who've lived in one and lived on the other for long, long periods of time, and none of them are on the brink of famine. 50+ people died in the 7/7 attacks, I'd bet money that that is a massive amount more than people who died of dissentry or bad sanitation in public housing, and that not one human being has ever starved to death in this country through not getting enough dole money.

[plymouth hammer]

You know, for a not-EDL member, you've got a lot to say in their defense.Got too much to lose at the moment to be part of any sort of fringe political group. I do however know members, get on well with them, post on their forums and have been to an event, albeit on my own and mostly to meet a few mates I ain't seen in a long time. None I'd regard as fascist or racist, before anyone starts.


Woah! You're good. Spitting fire and all that rot. Welcome to RevLeft.
Pardon?

[plymouth hammer]

Gotta say here I agree it's an evil evil law, been all sorts of stories about people nicking 3 DVDs for their kids to watch at christmas and being charged for each one as an individual crime, thus getting 25 years for pretty much fuck-all of a crime.

[plymouth hammer]

Got a lot of anger in you haven't you pogue? Don't think I've seen one post from you where you ain't insulting someone or something. And you call the EDL, a group all about peaceful demonstration, aggressive?

"LOL" as the kids say

[plymouth hammer]

yeh i'm like a little ball of rage, its all that holds me together.

now fuck off you nonce
Hahahaha here we go. What's next in your arsenal after "fash", "scum" and "nonce"? Daddy rape jokes? Willy jokes? Don't tell me..... MUM jokes?!?


*pats you on the head*

[plymouth hammer]

Yeah very peacefull, a combination of BNP tossers and Millwall hoolies. They look more like Loyalist wankers than anything else actually.
Unless I'm mistaken, that's the event in Luton, which happened before the EDL was formed, and involved almost entirely Luton football hoolies. But yeah I agree the balaklavas need a serious looking at.